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KrazyHorse
19-02-2008, 18:58:54
http://arxiv.org/pdf/0802.2470v1

This is almost exactly the paper I was going to write given 2-3 more weeks.

I'm depressed.

KrazyHorse
19-02-2008, 19:01:49
Anybody could have done this for the last 20 years, but they didn't. I figured it out a month and a half ago and now somebody else has the same idea and gets it out before I do. What the fuck. Fuck fuck.

:(

KrazyHorse
19-02-2008, 19:07:10
You just watch. That's a PRL paper right there. They're going to get a hundred fucking citations out of that paper. Every fucking article put out on Higgs search results in the first 5 years of the LHC will cite them.

Holy shit. This is the most frustrating thing to ever happen to me. This paper was going to be my meal ticket.

Argggh.

Lurker the Second
19-02-2008, 19:13:52
I wrote that same paper back in college, so quit bitching.

Venom
19-02-2008, 19:17:52
You want me to apologize or something? I had an idea and I wrote it down. Too bad, so sad.

Vincent
19-02-2008, 19:54:00
Yeah. Try some real work where you can make brillions of $ using copy and paste

Scabrous Birdseed
19-02-2008, 19:58:01
Most people use standard white office paper you know, it's not that original. Maybe you could go for scented paper or one that's a funny colour?

Vincent
19-02-2008, 20:03:06
Or nice clip arts http://www.imajlar.com/free_clipart/sun_clipart/sun_clipart_3.gif

Vincent
19-02-2008, 20:03:55
But I hope you learnt one thing: Don't mess with the smart people!!!

Koshko
19-02-2008, 20:20:56
It must be nice knowing someone smart.

Vincent
19-02-2008, 20:35:50
I don't care

mr_B
19-02-2008, 20:37:51
smart smart smart smart smart smart smart smart smart smart smart smart smart smart smart smart smart smart smart smart smart smart smart smart smart smart smart smart smart smart smart

now i feel stjoepit

Vincent
19-02-2008, 21:59:35
Originally posted by Vincent
I don't care

Koshko
19-02-2008, 22:54:30
Originally posted by Vincent

Funko
20-02-2008, 08:58:58
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
http://arxiv.org/pdf/0802.2470v1

This is almost exactly the paper I was going to write given 2-3 more weeks.

I'm depressed.

Ouch.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
20-02-2008, 09:09:04
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
http://arxiv.org/pdf/0802.2470v1

This is almost exactly the paper I was going to write given 2-3 more weeks.

I'm depressed.

Yeah, that sucks. Same thing happened to me with my doctoral thesis, so I understand the frustration just too well.

Tizzy
20-02-2008, 09:28:45
Originally posted by mr_B

now i feel stjoepit

Story of my life

maroule
20-02-2008, 09:53:48
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
You just watch. That's a PRL paper right there. They're going to get a hundred fucking citations out of that paper. Every fucking article put out on Higgs search results in the first 5 years of the LHC will cite them.

Holy shit. This is the most frustrating thing to ever happen to me. This paper was going to be my meal ticket.

Argggh.


that happened to me when I was trying to shag a v pretty girl at a party, waited too long, and she went with somebody else. They had fantastic sex, and the bastard basked in the public glory of having picked her up. So I understand the frustration just too well.

MDA
20-02-2008, 11:37:53
getting scooped blows, hard :(

MOBIUS
20-02-2008, 11:48:15
Sucks hard, dude...

Similar stuff has happened to me all to often (not writing papers or anything though) due to my extreme procrastination affliction.

I therefore have to live with both getting screwed, and the knowledge that if I'd made a modicum of effort - I wouldn't have been...

Worst thing is, I keep doing it even now.:rolleyes:

Funko
20-02-2008, 11:59:05
If you'd never bothered thinking about writing a paper, no-one could have beaten you to it.

MoSe
20-02-2008, 12:22:50
http://i.treehugger.com/files/th_images/smart%204fun-thumb.jpg

http://www.blogto.com/upload/2007/06/20070618_wiicar.jpg

MoSe
20-02-2008, 12:36:26
There are too many smart people in the world

This is almost exactly the paper I was going to write given 2-3 more weeks

LOL, I thought the thread title was the SUBJECT of the paper you wanted to write!

:lol:

Genius inflation in population-rich countires

MoSe
20-02-2008, 12:37:22
Originally posted by maroule
that happened to me when I was trying to shag a v pretty girl at a party, waited too long, and she went with somebody else. They had fantastic sex, and the bastard basked in the public glory of having picked her up. So I understand the frustration just too well.

LOL, did paiktis borrow your password?

Funko
20-02-2008, 12:40:21
No, Paiktis would have been the one at the party who shagged the pretty girl. Of course.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
20-02-2008, 12:45:00
Paiktis would have shagged some psycho bitch. So it depends on the psychoness of the pretty girl....

LoD
20-02-2008, 13:29:18
Originally posted by Dyl Ulenspiegel
Yeah, that sucks. Same thing happened to me with my doctoral thesis, so I understand the frustration just too well.

Joining the sympathy choir...

A similar thing happened to me with my master's thesis. Adding insult to injury, the other guy was a son of one of the two researchers that pretty much provided the foundations for the relevant general field.

Then the same thing happened with a university-related project, a part of my master's program. I mean, this guy had almost exactly the same idea, when I read the introduction of his report I was stumped. Lucky for me, although his plan was largely the same, he only fulfilled a small portion of it, so I could retain my original concept.

Originally posted by Funko
No, Paiktis would have been the one at the party who shagged the pretty girl. Of course.

Wanted to say the exact same thing :D!

One thing I do not understand 'though...

Originally posted by maroule
that happened to me when I was trying to shag a v pretty girl at a party, waited too long, and she went with somebody else.

So, was she just laying there?

maroule
20-02-2008, 15:56:00
I was shagging her leg, terrier style

Cruddy
20-02-2008, 17:44:09
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
http://arxiv.org/pdf/0802.2470v1

This is almost exactly the paper I was going to write given 2-3 more weeks.

I'm depressed.

Then learn a lesson and finish writing something instead of just thinking about writing it.

Best positive I can see you getting from the situation.

KrazyHorse
20-02-2008, 20:11:14
Originally posted by Cruddy
Then learn a lesson and finish writing something instead of just thinking about writing it.

Best positive I can see you getting from the situation.

I think that you misunderstand how scientific research works. I was working on it, but was not yet done. The real work was going to be finished in about 2 weeks, then there would probably be another week of actually writing, making plots, editing etc.

I wasn't sitting around thinking about writing something, too lazy to actually do it. :lol:

KrazyHorse
20-02-2008, 20:13:13
A four page scientific paper can easily take 6 months to complete, working 40-50 hours a week...

This one was not terribly complicated, but even it was going to take a total of 2 months or so with 2 graduate students working full time on it.

Vincent
20-02-2008, 20:36:33
Especially if you use a 3 pt. font

JM^3
20-02-2008, 20:50:53
I still haven't read the paper. One thing though, there is a lot of very brilliant physicists in your field.

JM

KrazyHorse
20-02-2008, 20:59:47
http://atlas-saclay.in2p3.fr/public/images/higgs.gif

If it's right then it'll change this plot significantly by wiping out the "valley" (in the black line) at the left of the plot.

It would end up being a major contributor (or even the biggest contributor) to the discovery of a light Higgs (mH<150 GeV)

MoSe
21-02-2008, 09:25:10
Matt, we need a new Higgs!!!!

Greg W
21-02-2008, 09:34:17
Originally posted by JM^3
I still haven't read the paper.I tried starting reading it, but got lost in the overview. :clueless:

LoD
21-02-2008, 14:46:40
Originally posted by maroule
I was shagging her leg, terrier style

:lol:!

Oh, you decadent Frenchman, you!

TCO
22-02-2008, 04:29:12
A. stiuck with me mother fuck. I'll help you get some condensed matter citations.

b . There are not that many smart people. At least not that many smart people as dumb as me.

Cruddy
22-02-2008, 15:55:45
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
I think that you misunderstand how scientific research works. I was working on it, but was not yet done. The real work was going to be finished in about 2 weeks, then there would probably be another week of actually writing, making plots, editing etc.

I wasn't sitting around thinking about writing something, too lazy to actually do it. :lol:

What got Charles Darwin moving was reading his theory of evolution written by somebody else.

Funko
22-02-2008, 16:02:13
He should have read the bible, realised he was wrong, and solved that problem before it happened.

Cruddy
22-02-2008, 16:17:15
Why do you think he was so reluctant to publich? Being a church minister etc?

He wasn't out to reveal the Jewish/Christian creation story as a fraud, but come the time when somebody else was going to steal his thunder...

... he just thought "That's MINE" and published anyway.

Funko
22-02-2008, 16:34:14
Church minister? No. CORRUPTING AGENT OF SATAN.

Funko
22-02-2008, 16:37:47
Exhibit A: The huge beard
Exhibit B: Boat named after a dog

Funko
22-02-2008, 16:38:46
Exhibit C: his outrageous homosexuality

Venom
22-02-2008, 16:39:48
Minion of Satan!

Funko
22-02-2008, 16:42:31
Exhibit D: His forked tail.

Funko
22-02-2008, 16:44:16
Exhibit E: The very well documented evidence of him holding satanic rituals including gang rape and bestiality and human sacrifice in his basement.

Funko
22-02-2008, 16:46:04
You can't argue with these facts.

Venom
22-02-2008, 16:50:50
Also....he was BALD!

Funko
22-02-2008, 16:52:44
No way. Really? I never heard that. :eek:

Tizzy
22-02-2008, 17:00:11
You can't trust a man with no hair

Hi Greg!

Noisy
23-02-2008, 13:39:27
I'd concentrate on resolution issues at 125 - 130 GeV rather than looking at sub-jet techniques.

Provost Harrison
23-02-2008, 14:09:38
I concur!

KrazyHorse@home
23-02-2008, 19:10:02
Originally posted by Noisy
I'd concentrate on resolution issues at 125 - 130 GeV rather than looking at sub-jet techniques.

I can't do much about jet energy resolution. That's up to the experimentalists.

We have to take that as a given. Jet structure, on the other hand, is relatively underutilised. I think there's a lot of interesting work to be done there.

Resource Consumer
23-02-2008, 19:40:18
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
http://arxiv.org/pdf/0802.2470v1

This is almost exactly the paper I was going to write given 2-3 more weeks.

I'm depressed.

The reality is that in some aspects of business you write maybe 5 PhD worthy papers in each 2 years.

Good news is, though, you don't get paid as an academic.

I can live without the aclaim. :)

Resource Consumer
23-02-2008, 19:41:16
But don't get me wrong KH and DYl - I do sympathise - but that is the lot of the academic, I am afraif.

Resource Consumer
23-02-2008, 19:41:52
and the lot of the economist is not to be able to spell or type properly

Beta1
23-02-2008, 22:02:11
Been there, had it happen to me as well.

Greg W
23-02-2008, 23:00:03
Originally posted by Tizzy
You can't trust a man with no hair

Hi Greg! :cry:

Noisy
23-02-2008, 23:26:21
Originally posted by KrazyHorse@home
I can't do much about jet energy resolution. That's up to the experimentalists.

We have to take that as a given. Jet structure, on the other hand, is relatively underutilised. I think there's a lot of interesting work to be done there.

Hey, this quantum physics stuff is easy, isn't it? You pick a few random words out of a paper and string them together and people take you seriously. I was getting bored with business analysis anyway.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
24-02-2008, 09:54:04
Originally posted by Resource Consumer
The reality is that in some aspects of business you write maybe 5 PhD worthy papers in each 2 years.

Good news is, though, you don't get paid as an academic.

I can live without the aclaim. :)

If you write one in about 5 months, I very much doubt it's PhD worthy.

Unless it's economics. :p

Scabrous Birdseed
24-02-2008, 10:17:42
I think you underestimate how much time it takes to construct convincing lies - I mean there are so many factors you have to blindly ignore!

Dyl Ulenspiegel
24-02-2008, 10:37:59
Well, the beauty of mainstream economics is that it has institutionalised the lies. Within the system, they are convincing. So the standard works don't have to reproduce the lies, they can build on them.

Scabrous Birdseed
24-02-2008, 10:42:35
Ah, but this is PhD level we're talking about - wouldn't they have to come up with an entirely new system of arbitrary, ideologically-driven bullshit?

Dyl Ulenspiegel
24-02-2008, 11:04:14
The normal PhD stuff should just develop the whatever-driven bullshit a step further. Wouldn't work the other way if you consider the nr of PhD programs and students.

Scabrous Birdseed
24-02-2008, 19:39:55
Oh come on, I'm sure there are tons of psychologically complex interactions between real human beings left that you can "reduce" to some spur-of-the-moment "formula".

KrazyHorse
25-02-2008, 02:46:08
Originally posted by Noisy
Hey, this quantum physics stuff is easy, isn't it? You pick a few random words out of a paper and string them together and people take you seriously. I was getting bored with business analysis anyway.

I figured it for that, but it made a remarkable amount of sense, at least on the face of it...

DaShi
25-02-2008, 03:43:52
That sucks KH. I guess your only option is to kill the bastard and assume his identity.

MDA
25-02-2008, 11:58:33
Originally posted by DaShi
That sucks KH. I guess your only option is to kill the bastard and eat his bones.

fixed

Dyl Ulenspiegel
25-02-2008, 12:07:05
Eat his brain and acquire his spirit.

DaShi
26-02-2008, 01:42:43
I thought you had to eat his heart for that. Maybe that's just for courage. I can never remember.

MoSe
26-02-2008, 09:11:47
you'r short of memory because you didn't eat enough brain

MDA
26-02-2008, 12:29:49
Originally posted by Dyl Ulenspiegel
If you write one in about 5 months, I very much doubt it's PhD worthy.

Unless it's economics. :p

I was once told during a student lunch with a "fairly notable in his field" guest speaker that if you (a graduate student) can't get the data and write up an article for a highly ranked peer-reviewed journal in six months, you need to quit or get a new project.

We compared notes after lunch, none of us had ever come close to that level of productivity. :lol:

I do wonder what kind of work he expected from postdocs.

KrazyHorse
26-02-2008, 14:15:52
I'd say that most of the grad students around here start off taking ~1.5 years per paper and finish at ~8 months per paper.

1st year postdocs don't get anything done because for the first time they're operating without an advisor. 2nd (and later) year postdocs can probably get 2 papers out in a year.

So if this guy meant "senior postdoc" by "graduate student" then he's probably correct...

KrazyHorse
26-02-2008, 14:17:46
And nobody puts out 5 dissertation worthy papers in 2 years. Nobody.

A solid dissertation = 3-4 papers. I'd like to meet the person that puts out the equivalent of 15 or 20 papers in 2 years.

:lol:

KrazyHorse
26-02-2008, 14:21:59
Even Euro PhDs (which are notoriously light) have to be worth at least two papers.

Industry stuff generally does not come up to the standards of academic work. This is no knock on people working in industry. They are not given the time to do as careful a job as academics are expected to.

MDA
26-02-2008, 14:46:44
Industry frequently sits on good stuff rather than publishing to keep it out of their competitor's hands. It can really screw up an collaboration with academia.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
27-02-2008, 09:03:48
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Even Euro PhDs (which are notoriously light) have to be worth at least two papers.



I'm curious about your perception of "Euro PhDs" because the standards are all over the place, and we are just implementing the common Bologna standards for this.

Also, would you say that north american PhD standards are pretty much the same across all programs?

MoSe
27-02-2008, 11:36:29
Bologna Standards???

http://www.unichef.com/sausageglossary.htm


Sausage and Charcuterie Glossary Terms

Bologna -- (cooked, smoked sausage)
Originated in Bologna, Italy; made of cured beef and pork,
finely ground, with seasonings similar to frankfurters;
available in rings, rolls or slices of varying diameters; fully
cooked and ready to serve.
BEEF BOLOGNA is made exclusively of beef and
has a definite garlic flavor.
CHUB BOLOGNA is a smooth mixture of beef and
pork with bacon added.
HAM-STYLE BOLOGNA contains large cubes of
lean cured pork.


I'm surprised it doesn't mention the use of pepper grains and pistachios!

MDA
27-02-2008, 11:43:13
nah, pretty variable even within a single school's program - although within a specific program, there's nearly always a minimum "standard", your advisor or specialty can raise the bar

People within my program graduated somewhere between 3 1/2 to 8 years, with as many as 5 publications, some with none at all (although they often had a couple manuscripts complete and submitted for review at the time they graduated). We probably averaged 4 to 5 years to graduation and 2 first-author published articles.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
27-02-2008, 12:39:20
Originally posted by MoSe
Bologna Standards???

http://www.unichef.com/sausageglossary.htm



I'm surprised it doesn't mention the use of pepper grains and pistachios!

Two things the law will never get under control: politics and sausage making.

Scabrous Birdseed
27-02-2008, 13:19:42
Yeah, I reacted to the same thing as Dyl - as far as I'm aware some countries have very low standards while others have fairly high ones. The Bologna standard is, I believe, 3 years undergraduate, 2 years postgraduate and 3+ years doctoral, right?

Dyl Ulenspiegel
27-02-2008, 13:51:09
Yes. Although the amount of scientific output required is not so clear.

KrazyHorse
27-02-2008, 18:06:54
Originally posted by Dyl Ulenspiegel
I'm curious about your perception of "Euro PhDs" because the standards are all over the place, and we are just implementing the common Bologna standards for this.

Also, would you say that north american PhD standards are pretty much the same across all programs?

My comments only have to do with math and physics PhDs, though I've been given the impression that it is true across most of the sciences.

Top tier NA unis demand more before granting a PhD than top tier Euro institutions do. It is pretty common to see a 3-4 year Euro PhD in physics (from BSc level), while the NA average is more like 6 years. Partly this has to do with the fact that NA BSc requirements are lower than Euro BSc requirements (so there's ~1 extra year for NA students to catch up at the beginning) and partly it has to do with more stringent requirements at the top end.

JM^3
27-02-2008, 18:07:33
Physicists I know of have taken 4-9 nears for graduation (PhD, straight out of undergrad) with an average of 5.5 (national statistic). In some subfields the average is more like 5, while in others it can be as high as 6.5.

My experience with Euro graduate students is that there is a few less requirements then US ones.

JM

KrazyHorse
27-02-2008, 18:10:35
The shortest I've ever known personally was a 4 flat, but I think he might have had some graduate work already. Of those I'm certain were straight from BSc, the shortest was 4.5

JM^3
27-02-2008, 18:11:26
The guy I know who did 4, his advisor ran out of money (Strange story) so he basically told him he was graduating in 2 months...

JM

KrazyHorse
27-02-2008, 18:13:46
Yeah, sometimes the people who get out quickly are due to weird circumstances like that. There was this one girl I heard of (she left right before I got here) whose advisor left for another institution (may have failed at getting tenure) so she was pushed out the door after 5 years despite her being a total fuckup and not publishing anything.

KrazyHorse
27-02-2008, 18:14:52
Oh well, at least I get to go to TASI this summer (i.e. spend a month in Colorado on the department's tab).

JM^3
27-02-2008, 18:16:05
Strange story:

His advisor was indian. When he was a kid, he had a dream or fortelling or something that he was going to die at 40 (I Think it was 40, it might have been 50). Despite the fact that later he converted to Christianity, he continued to beleive that he was going to die before he reached a certain age. Because of this, he had it so that all his grants would stop before that date. So anyway, he survived (And still lives, 2 years later) and his student got to graduate after 4 years and got a post doc in malibu.

My freind started research practically right away, and didn't switch fields (like I did). That also helps a lot (I am going to gradaute with 3-3.5 years of research in my field, which if I had started after 1 year (like normal) would have me graduating early, not late).

JM

JM^3
27-02-2008, 18:16:40
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Oh well, at least I get to go to TASI this summer (i.e. spend a month in Colorado on the department's tab).

Oh, I had freinds in MD who do that. Maybe you know them? Sogee and Nick

JM

JM^3
27-02-2008, 18:18:21
Actually, I think you are right about it being 6 years to graduate on average. The average would be 5.5 if you didn't include some subfields that took a very long time (if my memory serves).

JM

KrazyHorse
27-02-2008, 18:24:41
Originally posted by JM^3
Oh, I had freinds in MD who do that. Maybe you know them? Sogee and Nick

JM

I've probably met them. The particle theory groups from UMD and JHU hold joint seminars every month or two. I've been down to College Park a few times for those.

KrazyHorse
27-02-2008, 18:25:30
To be clear, I haven't been to TASI yet. I'm going in June. It ought to be fun.

KrazyHorse
27-02-2008, 18:27:39
TASI is to particle theorists what Jackson EM is to physicists; you're not a real one until you go through it.

I was worried about the application process until I realised that our dept chair is on the advisory committee and my advisor is giving one of the lecture series.

MoSe
27-02-2008, 18:39:53
"tasi" means "shut up" in Venice

Scabrous Birdseed
27-02-2008, 19:53:08
How long would the total study time be? I mean, here it used to be 4 years minimum for a PhD, but then it was just one year of postrgraduate studies.

JM^3
27-02-2008, 21:07:15
College and graduate school in the US averages about 9 years, 10-11 years for physics. This is because a good physics bachelors is often 5 years (not 4), and the average physics PhDs are 6 years.

This is post highschool, which is 4 years.

Maybe age is a better way to do this, the average age for someone who did straight schooling is 27 at completion of PhD. Physics is generally a bit later, 28 or 29.

JM

KrazyHorse
27-02-2008, 21:16:05
Originally posted by Scabrous Birdseed
How long would the total study time be? I mean, here it used to be 4 years minimum for a PhD, but then it was just one year of postrgraduate studies.

Total study time (US+Canada outside Quebec)

Complete high school (age 18)
4 years university, get BSc
~6 years grad school, get PhD

So with no breaks and average time spent in school, you're 28 years old and you have a PhD, no money, no job, no experience and no friends. :(

Venom
27-02-2008, 21:32:06
But people call you Doctor.

LoD
28-02-2008, 12:35:40
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Total study time (US+Canada outside Quebec)

Complete high school (age 18)
4 years university, get BSc
~6 years grad school, get PhD

[...]

Ah, therein lies the rub. I think it would be very hard to find an academic institution in Europe that allows joining a doctoral program with only a bachelor's degree (and it's certainly not possible under the Bologna standards - right, Dyl?). So the time required to obtain a doctorate in Europe would be on average the same as in North America. At least in Computer Science, 3-4 years is normal for a PHd in the Eurocountries, but from MSc level.

MDA
28-02-2008, 12:52:20
Nobody actually calls you doctor, except the people sending you junk mail.

I got a tour of all the different research equipment that uses (mostly for imaging stuff) the neutrons they snag out of the reactor at NIST a few weeks ago. It was a bit cooler than all the nanomaterials standards stuff we were actually there for, just a lot less relevant to drug delivery systems. That's my physics contribution to the thread.

I did 4 years undergrad, 2 years odd jobs, a year working on a master's and working odd jobs, then I abandoned the master's and spent not quite 5 years of graduate school for a PhD.

I probably would have been in grad school another six months, but I had a job lined up outside academia. If I'd wanted to stay in research, they'd have squeezed a little more blood out of me. I did meet my wife while working on my master's so it wasn't all wasted time in between college and grad school.

KH, don't be ridiculous, you had a bunch of twat friends on the internet. :beer:

KrazyHorse
28-02-2008, 13:23:17
Originally posted by LoD
I think it would be very hard to find an academic institution in Europe that allows joining a doctoral program with only a bachelor's degree

That is not true, at least in physics&mathematics. AFAIK it's rather easy (and might be the norm) to do so.

KrazyHorse
28-02-2008, 13:24:00
Originally posted by MDA
Nobody actually calls you doctor, except the people sending you junk mail.

I got a tour of all the different research equipment that uses (mostly for imaging stuff) the neutrons they snag out of the reactor at NIST a few weeks ago.

Did you meet Colin Broholm?

KrazyHorse
28-02-2008, 13:31:05
Originally posted by LoD
Ah, therein lies the rub. I think it would be very hard to find an academic institution in Europe that allows joining a doctoral program with only a bachelor's degree (and it's certainly not possible under the Bologna standards - right, Dyl?). So the time required to obtain a doctorate in Europe would be on average the same as in North America. At least in Computer Science, 3-4 years is normal for a PHd in the Eurocountries, but from MSc level.

The Euro PhDs I know (postdocs here, as well as from a few other places) are generally younger than NA PhDs, have fewer publications at graduation, and spend longer in postdocs (before attaining faculty positions). The majority of the Euros come from UK, France, Italy and Scandinavian countries. Not very many Germans (not sure why). A few Poles and Spaniards mixed in.

Now, if we go by the "Bologna Standards" then I agree that things work out about the same, but AFAIK this is not necessarily the standard being applied (or at least, being applied up to 5-10 years ago; there will always be a lag, because I only meet these people after they come here).

The only other question is if there's a selection bias; are people who stay at Euro institutions generally more advanced on graduation than those who come to NA? I don't see why that would be.

MDA
28-02-2008, 13:43:52
Colin may have been the guy they were talking about not being available to take us around the neutron facility. We ended up with a guy named Peter - looking at the staff list, I'd say it was Peter Volkovitsky.

We met tons of people on the nanomaterials standards side, I don't remember their names.

KrazyHorse
28-02-2008, 14:30:43
Colin's a prof in the dep't. He does neutron scattering matsci stuff at NIST. I don't know much about his research other than that.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
28-02-2008, 15:11:03
Originally posted by LoD
Ah, therein lies the rub. I think it would be very hard to find an academic institution in Europe that allows joining a doctoral program with only a bachelor's degree (and it's certainly not possible under the Bologna standards - right, Dyl?). So the time required to obtain a doctorate in Europe would be on average the same as in North America. At least in Computer Science, 3-4 years is normal for a PHd in the Eurocountries, but from MSc level.

Maybe you and KH are both right as pre-Bologna, you'd start a Doctorate or PhD with a master, but that could be a 4year master as the first academic grade. IIRC the 4year masters were sometimes accepted only as BSc, the 5year as MSc in the US (or Britain?).

Dyl Ulenspiegel
28-02-2008, 15:17:14
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
The Euro PhDs I know (postdocs here, as well as from a few other places) are generally younger than NA PhDs, have fewer publications at graduation, and spend longer in postdocs (before attaining faculty positions). The majority of the Euros come from UK, France, Italy and Scandinavian countries. Not very many Germans (not sure why). A few Poles and Spaniards mixed in.


Theoretically, you take 8 years (3+2+3) under Bologna. The current programs and actual times are all over the place.

In my field, a german law doctorate should take maybe 7 years, an austrian currently just 6. But this doctorate is not limited to an academic career; if you want to go into academia, the average doctorate age is about 30. Then comes a Habilitation at about 40, and the first professorship at about 45 (which, on the other hand, is usually an endowed chair with tenure). This system is utterly idiotic, but that's another topic....

JM^3
28-02-2008, 15:49:19
My experience with european is that generally they are missing some of the things considered 'not required'. Like my freind (also in nuclear physics) didn't have any field theory. Now not all nuclear students do, but still. Additionally, his EM was very lacking (He actually goes to a Canadian university but has a French Masters). He has been taking classes this academic year to fix that up (he was my roommate the year before while his experiment was running).

He will probably take 4 years to finish his doctorate. They have a french student in the collaboration though, who knows as little as him, but will graduate in 3 years rather then 4.

In physics you don't generally get a professorship until you are 35.

JM

Venom
28-02-2008, 16:18:35
Canada is Western Western Europe.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
28-02-2008, 16:21:48
That would make Australia Western Western Western Europe.

Or Western California.

KrazyHorse
28-02-2008, 17:03:01
Australia's past the date line. So technically they're Eastern Eastern Western Europe (Japan being Eastern Western Europe).

Dyl Ulenspiegel
28-02-2008, 17:29:47
Good.
Now explain that to Drekkus.

MoSe
28-02-2008, 17:51:46
Huh?

Dyl Ulenspiegel
28-02-2008, 18:19:03
indeed

TCO
08-03-2008, 22:13:58
Kitty: It depends on the field broadly how easy it is to publish. Experimental solid state chemistry is not that hard to find new contributions, once one has acheived mastery of the methods and usually there are more interesting problems to go after once you go down a road: alternate materials, applications, alternate forms (thin films), structure to property (lots of properties to pick), theoretical applications, etc. etc. Often requiring collaboration. But once you get into a problem, you see a spiderweb of different nearest neighbors of related problems along different axes.

TCO
08-03-2008, 22:16:25
I could see what RC is saying to be the case. I sorta miss publishing stuff. Most business advice is so crappy...and it is so inefficient for people (practical working people in companies and consultancies) to have to so often rediscover the wheel. But really most literature in biz strategy is so fluffy and or self serving. Rather than just explaining how to do something for the next fucker who has to come along and do it.