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Lazarus and the Gimp
16-04-2007, 18:58:08
Depressing stuff. The bodycount is genuinely frightening.

Hope nobody here knows anyone caught up in it.

Lurker the Second
16-04-2007, 19:07:28
Reporting is all over the place currently. I suppose that's to be expected under the circumstances. Horrific in the best case reporting, though.

MOBIUS
16-04-2007, 19:16:37
Yes it is sad, but until there is real political will to change the gun laws in the US, this sort of thing is going to keep happening on a relatively regular basis...

The fact that this appears to be a record number killed might just tip the balance - hopefully that so many people died might actually not be in vain this time. The real tragedy is the fact that for the catalyst for laws to change, so many lives have to be sacrificed.

:(

Venom
16-04-2007, 19:21:13
Yeah, because the guy doing the shooting would absolutely have followed any gun laws in place.

Oh wait, VT is already a no gun zone.

Koshko
16-04-2007, 19:49:29
Despite the 'deadliest' comments, this isn't actually the deadliest school incident ever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

Dyl Ulenspiegel
16-04-2007, 20:11:11
Well, gun laws have their limits. At best they make it more difficult, but it can happen everywhere.

Koshko
16-04-2007, 20:12:40
Of course we already know what's going to happen in the next few weeks ...

First there will be a blanket of media coverage on everything even remotely relating to the incident even if it isn't appropriate. Then there will be the continuous comparison between this and all other school shootings ever as a reminder of what happened to the people that want to forget what happened. Then there will be the obligatory interviews of people that knew the shooter that usually involve comments about how he was a nice quiet young man and they are shocked that he could do this. Then there will be the massive knee-jerk rehashed debate on our gun laws that ultimately ends with the realization that any change in the laws likely wouldn't have stopped this from occurring. Then people will pass a couple of "feel-good" type laws or ordinances in place for school security. Then someone famous will do something really stupid resulting in the masses forgetting all about the incident. Then we will go on like nothing ever happened until the next time someone shoots up a school, probably sometime next school year. Finally the whole process repeats again.

Koshko
16-04-2007, 21:07:07
I love wikipedia sometimes. Note this may have been removed already.

Charles Joseph Whitman's noble legacy (Note: For reference, he killed 15 people at the University of Texas in 1966) has changed USA and has inspired many generations of young enthusiastic shooters. His record was only beaten one sunny day in mid April 2007 at Virginia Tech university. His fame and glory will live forever and ever and ever and ever."

VetLegion-
16-04-2007, 21:21:33
What is handgun usually referring to? I mean, can it be an automatic weapon or not?

Then there will be the massive knee-jerk rehashed debate on our gun laws that ultimately ends with the realization that any change in the laws likely wouldn't have stopped this from occurring.

Don't know if you're ironic or not, but this rings true.

Koshko
16-04-2007, 21:55:04
Well that didn't take long ... :rolleyes:

http://www.vtechdies.com/

VetLegion-
16-04-2007, 23:05:37
That web page is atrocious.

Walrus Feeder
16-04-2007, 23:56:03
Anyone listening to Radio 5 Live between 10-11pm tonight? They had some guy on from one of these organisations in the USA that supports rights to bear arms and he thought situation would have been prevented if all or a few of the students had been carrying guns themselves and could have fought back!

From reports it seems an inadequate response from College + Authorities to to make area safe and warn students about situation cost lives.

The death toll and the completely baffling motive is obviously the worst thing here, but i find the current spate of youngsters getting killed by guns and knives in the UK just nearly as bad, and our laws against guns and knives do little to remedy the situation here.

Venom
17-04-2007, 02:06:16
I can't believe those kids let this guy line them up and execute them.

mr_G
17-04-2007, 07:39:11
Originally posted by Koshko
Well that didn't take long ... :rolleyes:

http://www.vtechdies.com/ this is sick

Lazarus and the Gimp
17-04-2007, 07:54:51
Originally posted by Walrus Feeder

The death toll and the completely baffling motive is obviously the worst thing here, but i find the current spate of youngsters getting killed by guns and knives in the UK just nearly as bad, and our laws against guns and knives do little to remedy the situation here.


As far as one can tell, the homicide rate in Britain is actually declining.

Drekkus
17-04-2007, 07:56:34
Originally posted by Walrus Feeder
Anyone listening to Radio 5 Live between 10-11pm tonight? They had some guy on from one of these organisations in the USA that supports rights to bear arms and he thought situation would have been prevented if all or a few of the students had been carrying guns themselves and could have fought back!
Archie Bunker!!!

mr_G
17-04-2007, 08:10:22
^^ you're old

King_Ghidra
17-04-2007, 10:46:10
in a warped wild west kind of way i would have to agree with that argument

Funko
17-04-2007, 10:50:38
That he's old?

I think there was an experiment where they armed every person in a town in the deep south, and the gun crime rate went down a lot. But for it to work everyone has to be armed and carrying at all times.

King_Ghidra
17-04-2007, 11:01:34
a town in the deep south? can't they just look to compton for a practical example of how that would work ;)

i'm certainly not advocating looser gun controls, but it is surely a fact that in a case where you have a potential massacre situation a few armed individuals (be they members of the public or whoever) could prevent it

mr_G
17-04-2007, 11:03:55
just because of your name hah?

Drekkus
17-04-2007, 11:20:45
" If it were up to me I could stop all your hyjackings and skyjackings tommorrow, just pass out the pistols when the passengers board the plane and collect them when they get off the plane"

That's why they have these undercover policemen on planes now. :D

Lazarus and the Gimp
17-04-2007, 13:43:36
Originally posted by King_Ghidra

i'm certainly not advocating looser gun controls, but it is surely a fact that in a case where you have a potential massacre situation a few armed individuals (be they members of the public or whoever) could prevent it

Or turn it into a pitched battle, with bullets flying in all directions.

MDA
17-04-2007, 13:45:56
I'd prefer it if people would behave themselves for reasons other than knowledge that people around them can defend themselves.

It bugs me to see the media and government immediately jump to blaming video games, lack of breast feeding, poor emergency planning, or gun laws. A PERSON made the decision to KILL OTHER PEOPLE. Blame that sicko first and foremost, at least hold off on all the social commentary and recriminations until the dead are buried. Damn vultures and their pictures of bloody sidewalks.

Spend too much time going over every reason someone or something else shares blame for this only gives other crazy people the idea that they aren't in control of and don't have to take responsibility for their own actions.

Lazarus and the Gimp
17-04-2007, 13:49:43
Originally posted by MDA

It bugs me to see the media and government immediately jump to blaming video games, lack of breast feeding, poor emergency planning, or gun laws.


They're practically breaking out in celebrations on Vampirefreaks over the fact that at least this one doesn't appear to have been a member.

Funko
17-04-2007, 13:55:26
:lol:

LoD
17-04-2007, 13:55:47
Originally posted by Walrus Feeder
Anyone listening to Radio 5 Live between 10-11pm tonight? They had some guy on from one of these organisations in the USA that supports rights to bear arms and he thought situation would have been prevented if all or a few of the students had been carrying guns themselves and could have fought back!

Because, of course, every person is trained in combat, and in shooting at people in particular.

King_Ghidra
17-04-2007, 14:48:08
Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
Or turn it into a pitched battle, with bullets flying in all directions.

i'm guessing that gives people more chance than a gun presssed to the back of their heads

Venom
17-04-2007, 15:53:39
People being armed is about the only way to stop these things from happening. The police will never be able to arrive in time to stop a gunman from killing 10 or 15 people.

fp
17-04-2007, 17:11:23
It's pretty sad that some people's first reaction to these sort of events is to indulge in yet another round of "let's make fun of the silly backward gun-toting yanks". We have strict gun laws in this country, but they seem to be pretty freely available nevertheless.

Debaser
17-04-2007, 17:16:35
Well some would argue that teenage gunmen not having such easy access to guns would certainly be a big step forward for the US.

Of course if someone wants a gun badly enough they'll find a way to get one, but trying to make it slightly harder for them than popping into the nearest Target or whatever seems like a pretty sensible idea to me.

I know the details about this thing are pretty sketchy at the moment, but from what I've read it sounds like the gunman was pissed off and irrational 'cos his girl fucked him over. If he didn't have guns he'd probably have just beat up the other guy or something and 33 people wouldn't be dead.

More guns is no solution to anything.


Edited for terrible spelling and grammer.

Colon
17-04-2007, 17:33:37
For fuck's sake, I'm a bit sceptical about the gun-control-prevents-massacres type of reasoning as well, but I sure as hell don't want unqualified students taking guns in their classrooms for a situation 99% of the population will never encounter.

Greg W
18-04-2007, 00:52:53
I thought Bush's comment was a bit dubious. Something like "We're all shocked and saddened..."

Saddened I'll give you, but shocked? I can't say that I am at all shocked that this happened. I'll in fact be shocked if it doesn't happen again in the next year or so.

As to gun control laws? I think the problem is it's too late now. The cat is out of the bag, and imposing new laws won't change a great deal unless they're draconian and backed by house to house searches of every property in the US.

Koshko
18-04-2007, 01:06:30
It's a standard tragedy speech. It's basically been passed on since George Washington.

Debaser
18-04-2007, 03:58:42
Originally posted by Greg W
As to gun control laws? I think the problem is it's too late now. The cat is out of the bag, and imposing new laws won't change a great deal unless they're draconian and backed by house to house searches of every property in the US.

Yeah, can't do much about the 200 million privately owned guns in the US, but it'd be easy enough to ban the sale of ammo if the government felt so inclined (which they never will, not for a long time anyway).

notyoueither
18-04-2007, 05:36:56
Is the sale of bullets banned anywhere in the EU?

C.G.B. Spender
18-04-2007, 06:18:06
I don't believe so, they even have bullets in Word here!

notyoueither
18-04-2007, 06:35:14
Damned M$!

Dyl Ulenspiegel
18-04-2007, 07:14:03
But they're harmless, just create error messages when fired.

Oerdin
18-04-2007, 07:17:19
Originally posted by Venom
Yeah, because the guy doing the shooting would absolutely have followed any gun laws in place.

Oh wait, VT is already a no gun zone.

Venom, that is just a retarded post. If you can walk 100 yards off campus and buy a gun. Or rather go to a gun show and buy a guy without the background check ever being completed before you walk away with the gun then the laws are to laxed.

MattHiggs
18-04-2007, 08:03:06
Venom in retarded post shocker!

Funko
18-04-2007, 08:09:03
Originally posted by notyoueither
Is the sale of bullets banned anywhere in the EU?

http://www.dealtime.co.uk/xDN-sports_and_outdoors-ammunition~LO-1~CR-2

LoD
18-04-2007, 08:32:02
Look closer at the box, Funko...

Funko
18-04-2007, 08:33:37
Blanks? :)

LoD
18-04-2007, 08:35:55
Ah - was that your point :)?

Funko
18-04-2007, 08:36:43
Er... yes. Definitely. :o

Funko
18-04-2007, 08:37:12
I genuinely didn't know if you could buy ammunition or not. Never seen it but that doesn't mean you can't get it.

Lazarus and the Gimp
18-04-2007, 11:54:13
In practice, yes you can buy ammunition. Handguns, pump-action shotguns and full-automatic weapons are illegal in Britain. Rifles, shotguns (single or double-barrelled) and carbines can be legally owned. Many carbines use handgun ammunition.

However, buying such ammunition without a licence will get you locked up.

fp
18-04-2007, 12:01:30
Originally posted by Oerdin
go to a gun show and buy a guy

:brwncard:

King_Ghidra
18-04-2007, 12:08:46
:lol: now that's freudian

Venom
19-04-2007, 02:30:00
Originally posted by Oerdin
Venom, that is just a retarded post. If you can walk 100 yards off campus and buy a gun. Or rather go to a gun show and buy a guy without the background check ever being completed before you walk away with the gun then the laws are to laxed.

No shit, dumbfuck. That was the point of my post. He can get the gun anywhere. And even if there were gun laws, he could get one then too. When someone is this motivated and intent on killing, some petty gun laws aren't going to stop him.

MoSe
19-04-2007, 08:16:11
so, let instead laws make things easier for him, perfectly logical

anyway, I'm not shocked or worried
that's how society works
a culture has its consequences, and if the net outcome makes it grow better then it's positive in evolutionary terms

natural selection works for societies as organisms too
earth is already too many crowded, if some individuals die because the mainstream culture and ideas let them exposed and unprotected from risks, that's positive in the long term, the society will learn and adapt those culture and ideas and get better from it

King_Ghidra
19-04-2007, 08:23:07
that's a rosy view. spree killings have been around for a few decades now and aren't going away, so how is society adapting exactly?

and is earth really too crowded? if there was a more equal distiribution of resources and wealth i'm sure a lot more people could have a lot higher standard of living

MoSe
19-04-2007, 08:40:53
1. LONG term :p
2. when I take the tube in the morning, I tell you it's way much too crowded! I'd gladly kill a couple hundred every morning!

Colon
19-04-2007, 11:09:55
A more logical conclusion might be that your metro company needs to buy more coaches.

King_Ghidra
19-04-2007, 12:18:23
you'll be next on his list

Colon
19-04-2007, 12:20:15
I already were on his list.

LoD
19-04-2007, 13:58:31
Originally posted by Venom
No shit, dumbfuck. That was the point of my post. He can get the gun anywhere. And even if there were gun laws, he could get one then too. When someone is this motivated and intent on killing, some petty gun laws aren't going to stop him.

That's a stupid argument. By that logic, we should also legalize the possession and sale of WMDs, since when someone is motivated and intent on killing, petty laws aren't going to stop him.

Venom
19-04-2007, 14:13:18
That's a weak counter. Way to embrace hyperbole and ruin any point you may have been trying to make.

LoD
19-04-2007, 14:18:01
The only thing I've embraced was the argument-of-the-beard fallacy in your cited post, and I've embraced it solely to demonstrate where such a fallacy could lead, if projected (consistently!) further.

Just because those things happen, doesn't mean we can arbitrarily relax laws because "those people will do it anyway if they want to".

Dyl Ulenspiegel
19-04-2007, 14:28:57
I agree with Venom. We should give more guns to the psychos.

Koshko
19-04-2007, 18:22:07
Originally posted by Koshko
Of course we already know what's going to happen in the next few weeks ...

First there will be a blanket of media coverage on everything even remotely relating to the incident even if it isn't appropriate. Then there will be the continuous comparison between this and all other school shootings ever as a reminder of what happened to the people that want to forget what happened. Then there will be the obligatory interviews of people that knew the shooter that usually involve comments about how he was a nice quiet young man and they are shocked that he could do this. Then there will be the massive knee-jerk rehashed debate on our gun laws that ultimately ends with the realization that any change in the laws likely wouldn't have stopped this from occurring. Then people will pass a couple of "feel-good" type laws or ordinances in place for school security. Then someone famous will do something really stupid resulting in the masses forgetting all about the incident. Then we will go on like nothing ever happened until the next time someone shoots up a school, probably sometime next school year. Finally the whole process repeats again.

I forgot to add "Then someone will blame video games" to this list.

MDA
19-04-2007, 18:55:06
http://www.oldtimecandy.com/spree.htm

King_Ghidra
20-04-2007, 09:07:07
Originally posted by Koshko
I forgot to add "Then someone will blame video games" to this list.

jack thompson was on tv doing that a few hours after the incident

Fergus & The Brazen Car
20-04-2007, 09:29:58
Originally posted by Koshko
I forgot to add "Then someone will blame video games" to this list.

And Tarantino, the Sopranos, gays, atheists, 'Libbruls', Iran, the ozone layer, et cetera.

Koshko
20-04-2007, 20:23:03
From Columbine to Virginia Tech: The (un)luckiest girl ever.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18173672/?duck=true

Drekkus
23-04-2007, 07:29:03
Unbreakable!!

MoSe
23-04-2007, 08:15:18
Originally posted by Colon
A more logical conclusion might be that your metro company needs to buy more coaches.
killing a couple hundred people is always the best option
especially in the morning