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JM^3
12-02-2007, 11:18:36
Most people I know from the UK are very antiReligion. Even though I know many atheists or unreligious here in the US (most people I hang out with actually), not many I would classify as being very antiReligion.

Does the Church of England suck real bad? What is the deal? Sorry if this is a bit serious. Just wanting people's experiences on the matter.

Jon Miller
(posted this here rather then Poly because I feel like I know the people here better, overall)

JM^3
12-02-2007, 11:19:06
And not that everyone here has been very antiReligion. Just that most of you are britishers.

JM

JM^3
12-02-2007, 11:23:36
I guess this is too serious. Please feel free to ignore.

JM

MOBIUS
12-02-2007, 11:26:07
Nothing.

I am vaguely aware that we have a Church of England, which seems to spend most of its time quarreling amongst itself. I am also aware (because of the news) that we have a lot of angry Muslims (because, often rightly, they are feeling increasingly victimised in their own country).

Apart from that, there are all these old buildings with pointy towers and crosses on them liberally dotted around the country - though apparently these are just tourist attractions I think...

There was some nutter in the street the other day warning people about going to hell etc, oh and some hari-krishna dudes. And that funny beardy guy in a dress I walked past yesterday - but I think he was a terrorist.

What was the question again?:)

mr_G
12-02-2007, 11:35:17
In Holland the church lost a lot of interest during the 60's and 70's, just lately due to the upcoming angry Muslims our liberal country is slightly changing and the church is more popular again.

not for me tho, I visit the church at weddings and funerals.
That's quite a lot the last years.

JM^3
12-02-2007, 11:36:32
People getting married before they die?

JM

Gramercy Riffs
12-02-2007, 11:37:55
About as much as the monarchy...

mr_G
12-02-2007, 11:39:12
Originally posted by JM^3
People getting married before they die?

JM :lol:

MOBIUS
12-02-2007, 11:39:47
To be fair though, the monarchy is in the news in the UK far more than religion.

Drekkus
12-02-2007, 11:40:51
Wrong place to ask. Online fora are full of tech geeks/ science types. Science and religion often don't mix too well.

mr_G
12-02-2007, 11:48:52
so tell us what you're doing here?
wtf am I doing here, Drekkus let's go to pub right now

MOBIUS
12-02-2007, 11:48:56
Yeah, but maybe Jon is asking how much it invades our lives here in the UK? To which the answer is that you can easily ignore it, whereas in the US for example, it is more pervasive...

mr_G
12-02-2007, 11:50:13
even Good'ol George W goes to church.....woooooot what a wonderful country

Drekkus
12-02-2007, 11:52:11
Originally posted by mr_G
so tell us what you're doing here?
wtf am I doing here, Drekkus let's go to pub right now You're a bicyclemaker, and I watched too much star trek.:o

mr_G
12-02-2007, 11:58:09
owwwjaa

King_Ghidra
12-02-2007, 12:06:42
"Wrong place to ask. Online fora are full of tech geeks/ science types. Science and religion often don't mix too well."

drekkus has a good point there.

anyway, in my experience there are a lot of agnostic types around in the UK. people want to believe in something, but they don't really know what that something is. traditional mainstream religion is not floating people's boats (except where it's a part of the community, i.e. mainly ethnically).

the c of e is just generally seen as being out of touch, old-fashioned and embarassing. still as i understand it there a lot of flourishing churches where they make greater use of more modern song and more relaxed services and stuff.

i'd imagine the stats show very large numbers of people who consider themselves christians (but aren't really practicing in any sense of the word). i myself have been to several weddings and funerals that have been performed under the guise of christian ceremonies but that involve people who really don't care a tuppence for religion in any meaningful way. personally i find that an insult to me as a participant and to the church, but people do have this habit of carrying on these things. i would never go to a church and bullshit the vicar for half an hour so he'd agree to have my perfect wedding there, but hey, people are shallow and manipulative like that.

but in general spiritual terms i think britain has the same curse as the rest of the modern western world - people realise that money, drink and sex are all great but seem to think they need something more to make them truly happy. they don't know what it is and spend their lives trying this and that and never finding that something (imho because there's no magic secret, people should be happy to be healthy and wealthy but apparently that isn't enough).

anyway speaking personally i think religion is a disgusting insult to the human race and anyone who thinks there is some invisible super being out there controlling and guiding the universe is a fucking idiot

so you can put me in your antireligion bracket, jon

JM^3
12-02-2007, 12:13:46
You made bicycles?

What do you think of freeriding?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3171095128127221528&q=freeriding+Oregon&hl=en

JM

mr_G
12-02-2007, 12:21:35
nono jim, I went to technical Uni in Delft, students from the other city's (laaik Rotterdam where drekkus studied to become a business)called us bike makers(well architecture has barely nothing in common with the other technical tralalalala's so therefore Drekkus can't name me a bikemakertje)

mr_G
12-02-2007, 12:23:51
ow and i think freeriding is stjoepit.

JM^3
12-02-2007, 12:26:45
My brother is a big fan. He now has a metal plate in his hand.

JM

JM^3
12-02-2007, 12:28:47
KG, I understand why many homosexuals are viruntently antiReligion. Since many of them have lots of experience of only the negative sort (unfortunately).

I don't really understand in your case why you are so anti Religion, since you have little expereince with it?

JM

mr_G
12-02-2007, 12:36:50
So what's so goooooood about being religious Jon.
This brings me down to the discussion I had with my dad

MOBIUS
12-02-2007, 12:37:36
Originally posted by King_Ghidra i myself have been to several weddings and funerals that have been performed under the guise of christian ceremonies but that involve people who really don't care a tuppence for religion in any meaningful way. personally i find that an insult to me as a participant and to the church, but people do have this habit of carrying on these things. i would never go to a church and bullshit the vicar for half an hour so he'd agree to have my perfect wedding there, but hey, people are shallow and manipulative like that.

Two out of the last three weddings I've been to were held at registry offices, and the one later this year will too. The guy who did the church wedding isn't religious, but his now wife wanted the 'traditional' thing (I don't think she is particularly religious either).

The last two funerals I've been to were held directly at the crematorium...

Talking of being shallow and manipulative, when I was 10-11 I remember badgering my mum to pretend to be a regular christian to get the necessary 'accreditation' for getting me in at the local C of E secondary school - not because I was religious in the slightest, but because my best friend was going to go there and it had a far better reputation than the dump of a comprehensive I ended up going to!

anyway speaking personally i think religion is a disgusting insult to the human race and anyone who thinks there is some invisible super being out there controlling and guiding the universe is a fucking idiot

so you can put me in your antireligion bracket, jon

Hear, hear!:beer:

mr_G
12-02-2007, 12:43:02
:lol: imaginary snails at the other hand

Drekkus
12-02-2007, 12:43:24
Originally posted by JM^3
KG, I understand why many homosexuals are viruntently antiReligion. Since many of them have lots of experience of only the negative sort (unfortunately).

I don't really understand in your case why you are so anti Religion, since you have little expereince with it?

JM How do you know KG has little experience with homosex?

mr_G
12-02-2007, 12:46:34
he sounds gay, at least at the pissinginnthesink movie he did.

almost as gay as Funko in his famous radioshow

JM^3
12-02-2007, 12:46:51
Originally posted by mr_G
So what's so goooooood about being religious Jon.
This brings me down to the discussion I had with my dad

I would prefer to keep serious stuff on topic. Honestly, I think it is experiential.

JM

JM^3
12-02-2007, 12:48:01
Originally posted by Drekkus
How do you know KG has little experience with homosex?

That isn't the issue. The issue is if he has had lot's of people in his face screaming that he will go to hell for it and is uber evil because of it.

From his post I thought he hadn't. If he had I would like to appologise.

JM

mr_G
12-02-2007, 12:50:33
apolygise

MOBIUS
12-02-2007, 12:54:08
Originally posted by JM^3
I would prefer to keep serious stuff on topic. Honestly, I think it is experiential.

JM

just like kids experimenting with smoking cigarettes? The stupid ones get hooked and the smart ones kick the habit...

JM^3
12-02-2007, 12:55:27
How many people who were atheist experiment with Christianity and then 'kick the habit'?

JM

King_Ghidra
12-02-2007, 12:58:52
:lol:@mr g

maroule
12-02-2007, 13:04:41
doesn't work like that, but the other way round: you're brought up with some semblance of religious education, and then you kick the habit

I was in a jesuit school, which explains I'm agnostic

I like the idea of a superior "force" (rather than a being) which created all, but I'm sure as hell that jesus was just a rebel against the jew establishment (and Peter spun that into a highly successful sect), the old testament is a collection of brutal, archaic nonsense, that Mahomet etc. In other words, religions are pure human creations. For one because if not, a very irrate God would have blown to smithereens all the fuckers who have abused his good name.

Funko
12-02-2007, 13:16:47
Originally posted by JM^3
KG, I understand why many homosexuals are viruntently antiReligion. Since many of them have lots of experience of only the negative sort (unfortunately).

I don't really understand in your case why you are so anti Religion, since you have little expereince with it?

JM

K_G and I went to a CofE primary school, so we had plenty of exposure there.

My attitude pretty much echos his.

JM^3
12-02-2007, 13:18:43
Most theologians I have read/talked to say Paul did.

There is a reason why I did atheist->Christian. I know that Christian->atheist is reasonably common.

And under the dictionary.com definition of agnostic I would classify myself as one (an agnostic theist).

JM

JM^3
12-02-2007, 13:19:28
Exposure to != experience with.

Otherwise I could say I have experience with a lot more drugs then I have.

JM

JM^3
12-02-2007, 13:20:31
I am not pressing you all to experience religion, just noting the difference. I have chosen not to experience many drugs...

JM

Gramercy Riffs
12-02-2007, 13:22:40
I agree, I had a semi-strict Roman Catholic upbringing and went to a semi-strict RC Secondary school.

Naturally, I now find all religions pompus, inflated and silly.

Gramercy Riffs
12-02-2007, 13:23:53
X-post

JM^3
12-02-2007, 13:24:40
I have noticed more catholics becoming atheists then protestants also, so maybe it does relate.

JM
(CoE is suppose to be fairly Catholic)

Funko
12-02-2007, 13:34:31
No, not at all. C of E is a very protestant church, it's extremely liberal compared to the Catholic church. It's actually a relatively very modern religion, as these things go.

King_Ghidra
12-02-2007, 13:35:49
Originally posted by JM^3
Exposure to != experience with.

Otherwise I could say I have experience with a lot more drugs then I have.

JM

if you're implying that one shold not have an opinion on religion unless one has been a worshipper, then you're a moron

it is perfectly justifiable for someone to be anti drugs on the basis of the damage that they do to society (not my argument, i'm being hypothetical here) even if they have never done any drugs themselves. this is just the same.

my personal reasons for being anti-religious:

1) i don't tend to believe in any weird shit that isn't detectable or explicable by science or reasonable logic. that means god, ghosts, little green men from mars, the tooth fairy, santa claus etc.

2) i think it's a horrible insult to human endeavor and achievement that the feats of humanity are in someway supposedly owed to god or god's plan etc. cancer patients survive because of god's will (not because of the bravery of the patient or the skill of the doctors....). In fact i was reminded of this by the sickening crap spewed by the colts orgaisation after the afc title win and superbowl wins. we owe this win to god etc. yeah forget all the planning, training, strategy and execution, it was just god flipping a coin or something.

3) religious argument is anti-logic, because there is no room for debate or resolution, you have black and white, wrong and right. i don't even understand why people who follow religious beliefs even bother arguing with anyone about anything, because they already 'know' they are right and the non-believer is wrong.

4) religion is responsible for many many wars, which have been amongst the most frequent, destructive and vicious of human history

5) religious bodies generally espouse counter-democratic principles that emphasise things being done because they are 'right', not based on agreement or popular support

6) religious institutions in history have traditionally been utterly corrupt and self-serving bodies in which ordinary people have been used and abused by those in power in those institutions who espouse none of the principles which the worshippers follow. child abuse, nazi gold, slavery, wars for profit, etc. etc. there's a million examples

7) most modern religions still consider common societal behaviour which is accepted and praticed by millions of people - homosexuality, sex outside marriage, drug use, drink use, etc. - to be extreme sins and punishable offenses

Gramercy Riffs
12-02-2007, 13:37:23
Catholism, to me, just seemed all work and no play. Self hate, lack of worthiness etc. The whole mantra seemed to be "You are truly blessed to be a Catholic. Now spend youre entire life feeling guilty for it."

Many of the hymns and prayers tend to be along the lines of "I am meek, a piece of shit O Lord, my life is worthless and I am here only to serve you. Please, please, please forgive before I die, so I can go to Heaven."

In short, human life is whittled down to that of a worker ant.

I'm sure most/all other religions are the same but I can only speak of the one I was exposed to.

JM^3
12-02-2007, 13:40:23
Did you see my next post? Anyways, I have responses to all your points, but that isn't the topic of the thread (if you wish my responses, PM me).

Basically I agree that you can decide not to experience something based on your exposure to it. I was asked why I am a theist, and it is my honest response.. that I am because I have experienced it. Which is different than exposure to it.

Jon Miller

Funko
12-02-2007, 13:51:14
Ok well to answer why I don't want to have the religious 'experience'. Most religions come in two parts, a belief in a deity of some kind combined with a set of rules that are allegedly defined directly or indirectly by that deity. In Christianity it's either God's word or the teachings of Jesus. Very often the religion is fairly old and those laws/teachings have limited relevance in the modern world. I'd never want to subscribe to a belief system where my choices on many issues would be decided by 'faith' in a god rather than my own experiences and thinking.

The other aspect people talk about as a benefit is the pleasure and joy that faith brings, now, I'm totally all for people having hobbies that make them happy, but I've read quite a lot about the psychology of why people find religious experiences uplifting etc. and I don't want to be manipulated in that way any more than I would want to be manipulated by Astrology or any other technique that relies on the 'faith' of the recipient to achieve it's goals.

King_Ghidra
12-02-2007, 13:54:47
no i don't want your responses, this is a discussion i've had every year of my life since about 1995 and i'm thoroughly bored of it. i made the darkstar post just to make it clear where i stood.

JM^3
12-02-2007, 13:57:15
That is why I didn't post them.

JM

fp
12-02-2007, 14:00:40
As far as I can tell Christianity is essentially dead in this country. Some people pay lip service to it, but only a miniscule minority actually believe. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the dominant religion in this country - if one only counts devout believers - is Islam.

fp
12-02-2007, 14:03:28
I have no particularly strong feelings either way about religion. I'm not as rabidly anti-religion as K_G. I am very much anti-fanaticism and anti-zealotry, but those aren't exclusive to religion.

I basically don't see how religion is at all relevant to my life. If all religions disappeared tomorrow I don't think it would materially affect my life.

Funko
12-02-2007, 14:04:17
My take on the original question:

I don't think the UK does anything to us regarding religion, that's kind of the point. Most people have little or no exposure to religion outside of the odd wedding or funeral, there's very little religious coverage in the mainstream media it's just not an issue in the majority of peoples lives. So if a religious group does come out with an opinion about something very few of us will think their opinion is worth much attention. In the case of a religious authority coming out against something that most people think the government policy is pretty sensible on, eg. contraception or abortion the public's reaction is most likely to be hostile, because we don't tend to recognise the religious authorities right to dictate public policy to us.

Now there are some very religious elements in Britain. Scotland and Northern Ireland are more religious. Country areas tend to be more religious than towns. Some ethnic groups tend to be a lot more religious than the 'English' white majority. Catholic attendances have rocketed with the recent high Polish immigrations and there is a Gospel Church in London that (I think) has the largest average congregation in Europe.

mr_G
12-02-2007, 14:24:33
I am a believer baby!!!!

mr_G
12-02-2007, 14:24:56
*BURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRP*

Fistandantilus
12-02-2007, 15:28:17
I'm actually surprised at the amount of antireligion people in the UK. Here there is more that "who gives a fuck" attitude (of course that is the italian thought about pretty much everything :p)

MOBIUS
12-02-2007, 15:34:41
I'd say I am 99% "who gives a fuck".

Occasionally something happens to make me actually think about my stance, and that is when the 1% "I think religion is a disgusting insult to the human race and anyone who thinks there is some invisible super being out there controlling and guiding the universe is a fucking idiot", as K_G so eloquently puts it comes to the fore.

Naturally, I normally tend to keep those opinions to myself in the company of religious types.:)

mr_G
12-02-2007, 15:41:04
religion in the UK....... that's football.
when i was in Reading we went to a footballtemple, that was pretty pretty impressive.
there comes a taaim i will design the ultimate football temple

MOBIUS
12-02-2007, 16:03:14
Underwater football!:bounce:

Fistandantilus
12-02-2007, 16:03:48
:lol:

mr_G
12-02-2007, 16:09:32
:lol:

MoSe
12-02-2007, 16:15:21
Originally posted by MOBIUS
Underwater football!:bounce:

venue: Stamford [underwater] Bridge

thus named because only the exceptionally tall Dutch Stam can wade there

MoSe
12-02-2007, 16:19:28
talking of religion, can Bifrost, the Rainbow Bridge, get submerged?

MOBIUS
12-02-2007, 16:36:09
Originally posted by MoSe
venue: Stamford [underwater] Bridge


Obviously all stadia will be renamed 'bridge', with the unspoken assumption that all 'bridges' are underwater...

Therefore:

Old Trafford Bridge
Madejski Bridge
Emirates Bridge
Craven Cottage Bridge
St James' Park Bridge, etc

Obviously it won't be easy converting to this new playing style and all teams will have to sink or swim (with West Ham apparently having already been playing underwater for most of the season and STILL not getting the hang of it!:rolleyes: )

JM^3
12-02-2007, 16:38:05
Blitzball :b:

JM

protein
13-02-2007, 01:55:17
lurk...

:nervous:

mr_G
13-02-2007, 08:55:31
lurker the Third

MoSe
13-02-2007, 09:25:28
Originally posted by King_Ghidra
anyway speaking personally i think religion is a disgusting insult to the human race and anyone who thinks there is some invisible super being out there controlling and guiding the universe is a fucking idiotOriginally posted by protein
lurk...

:nervous:

:hmm:

I might more or less feel the same way, but I can't help to recall how in the past someone else was harshly reproached HERE and driven away for substantially saying the same things...

Ah, "those" people, ~those~ people....

Drekkus
13-02-2007, 11:34:06
Originally posted by protein
lurk...

:nervous: Protein alert!!!! :bounce:

You should be lurking in the bullsemen thread, protein. :D

Greg W
13-02-2007, 11:41:14
Originally posted by King_Ghidra
1) i don't tend to believe in any weird shit that isn't detectable or explicable by science or reasonable logic. that means god, ghosts, little green men from mars, the tooth fairy, santa claus etc.Just a quick point here. The amount of stuff we can detect or explain is growing exponentially. The fact we can't detect or explain ghosts or a god right now is not, IMHO, proof that they cannot exist. We just have no way right now of proving it either way. And thus the basis of any religion, faith.

Now, personally, being somewhat at least an existentialist, I do not believe in a controlling god, super being, whatever you want to call it.

As to whether there's some kind of god like being out there, I'm inclined to say yes. Though not the god our religions portray. Do I have any proof at all? Nope. Do I have faith? Hmm, some. Mainly just cos if this is all unplanned and random, then it's one hell of a fucking coincidence. Mind you, so would a god like being be just as unlikely, but you get that.

King_Ghidra
13-02-2007, 11:42:06
Originally posted by MoSe
:hmm:

I might more or less feel the same way, but I can't help to recall how in the past someone else was harshly reproached HERE and driven away for substantially saying the same things...

Ah, "those" people, ~those~ people....

if anyone wants to harshly reproach me, or attempt to drive me away, they're free to do so. i can stand up for myself.

i don't see anyone leaving because they were made to, if people start discussions and can't take the subsequent heat, then i guess internet discussion is not for them

MOBIUS
13-02-2007, 11:46:21
What is this harsh reproachment and driving away we're talking about?

Greg W
13-02-2007, 11:46:56
:brwncard: ?

JM^3
13-02-2007, 11:48:41
I got an answer to the question, of a sort.

I don't know if I understand/beleive it though.

Jon Miller

MOBIUS
13-02-2007, 11:58:08
What don't you understand/believe?

King_Ghidra
13-02-2007, 11:59:39
Originally posted by Greg W
Just a quick point here. The amount of stuff we can detect or explain is growing exponentially. The fact we can't detect or explain ghosts or a god right now is not, IMHO, proof that they cannot exist. We just have no way right now of proving it either way. And thus the basis of any religion, faith.

Now, personally, being somewhat at least an existentialist, I do not believe in a controlling god, super being, whatever you want to call it.

As to whether there's some kind of god like being out there, I'm inclined to say yes. Though not the god our religions portray. Do I have any proof at all? Nope. Do I have faith? Hmm, some. Mainly just cos if this is all unplanned and random, then it's one hell of a fucking coincidence. Mind you, so would a god like being be just as unlikely, but you get that.

well i'm glad that's cleared it up :clueless: when you say making a point you kinda mean 'get something off my chest' don't you

if you think you're telling me something i don't know, well sorry but you're not. as i said, that opinion of mine is not just an opinion based on blind obedience to whatever comes out of New Scientist, it's based on reasonable logic and experience of the world. i eagerly await the invention of the Ghostbuster Spectrometer and the evidence that ghosts are real, but in the meantime i'll stick to my own feelings and experience of the world which tells me that such things are an impossibility and a crock of made up shit lapped up by people who desperately wish there was more to life than the grim inevitability and finality of death

faith, well yeah good old faith, if only people could eat faith what a happy little world we'd live in. Invisible Motiveless Spirit Power/Creator Beings of unspecified origins and powers FTW!

MoSe
13-02-2007, 12:02:28
Originally posted by Greg W
As to whether there's some kind of god like being out there, I'm inclined to say yes.

Of course there is, he's Q from Star Trek!

JM^3
13-02-2007, 12:06:05
Originally posted by MOBIUS
What don't you understand/believe?

The answer as I understood it is that the strong antiReligion standpoint comes independent of any actions by religion against the people who are antiReligion from Britain.

I don't think it is true, or, if true, then I don't understand the standpoint.

Jon Miller

King_Ghidra
13-02-2007, 12:14:20
if you mean recent actions sure, because the church is a powder puff in this country

people who are anti-religious or non-religious (come on jon, it's called a hyphen, use it) are generally anti-religious or non-religious for reasons not related to bad experiences with the church, not because they were arse fucked by a priest or something.

why can't you accept the idea that people can think religion/church is not a great thing?

MoSe
13-02-2007, 12:15:06
Originally posted by King_Ghidra
if anyone wants to harshly reproach me, or attempt to drive me away, they're free to do so. i can stand up for myself.

i don't see anyone leaving because they were made to, if people start discussions and can't take the subsequent heat, then i guess internet discussion is not for them

KG, we can leave aside the driving away part, nothing to object to what you say except that if a whole community makes someone feel not welcome one would logically take the consequences

I already raised objections in the past to the way the forum reacted to protein's posting, and IIRC Funko summarised very clearly how there had been no prejudice nor persecutory intent.

I just recall how he substantially said the same things I quoted from you, and many of you jumped at his throat, while you got almost no objection now.
Of course he then left on his own initiative and decision, I'm not complaining nor playing his advocate (neither attacking you in the least!). I just point out the very different reactions.
Maybe the forums are just tired, or can't bother anymore, or they like you better than him
or got a bit more mature and tolerant in the meanwhile
:p

mr_G
13-02-2007, 12:15:38
normally a church is a great thing tho.
for example Sagrada Familia, that is huge man huge HUGE

MoSe
13-02-2007, 12:19:39
Chernobyl is much more impressive tho

JM^3
13-02-2007, 12:20:17
Originally posted by King_Ghidra
if you mean recent actions sure, because the church is a powder puff in this country

people who are anti-religious or non-religious (come on jon, it's called a hyphen, use it) are generally anti-religious or non-religious for reasons not related to bad experiences with the church, not because they were arse fucked by a priest or something.

why can't you accept the idea that people can think religion/church is not a great thing?

Maybe I can give my experience in the US. I hang out with mostly secular people in the US (there are places where they are a minority). Among the secular people I hang out with, there is a strong opinion that the fundamentalists are stupid... but this doesn't strongly color religion in general.

There is a difference between saying that you don't think a certain way. And saying that thinking that way is stupid or evil.

I wasn't implying fucked by a priest. I gave the example of homosexuals in the US since many of them have had someone (often close to them) attack them and say that they are doomed to hell for their orientation.

Jon Miller

Gramercy Riffs
13-02-2007, 12:21:09
Originally posted by JM^3
The answer as I understood it is that the strong antiReligion standpoint comes independent of any actions by religion against the people who are antiReligion from Britain.

I don't think it is true, or, if true, then I don't understand the standpoint.

I think the term 'anti' is being used a little strongly in this case. I can only speak for myself, but I am not, nor know anyone in the UK, who is 'anti' religion, as this implies that you are opposed to it.

I'm not opposed to, or against, religion, I just choose to find sanity of mind and existence elsewhere.

As a man who was once in a band bigger than Jesus said, "whatever gets you through the night"

Fistandantilus
13-02-2007, 12:23:31
Originally posted by King_Ghidra

why can't you accept the idea that people can think religion/church is not a great thing?

For the same reason you can't accept the idea that people can think religion/church is a great thing without being uhm well.. fucking idiots? :p

mr_G
13-02-2007, 12:25:21
GODDAMMIT!!!!

hmmm great relief, it helps so there must be a god afterall, let's call him DREKKUS
jesjes

MoSe
13-02-2007, 12:32:34
Well, those who get inspired by their [religious] beliefs to dedicate themselves to help the poor and the needy, are of course no idiots. Of course you do NOT NEED to be motivated by religion to be philantropic and charitable.


OTOH, what to think about those who get inspired by their religious beliefs to discriminate homosexuals because a voice in their head says they're doomed to hell???

I've no problem in respecting those who, because they can't expalin the meaning of their existance, decide that then there MUST be something totally invented and unverifiable to justify it. Except that often THEY are the FIRST ONES to not accept that others don't share their belief, and think it's obvious to dictate how other MUST think and MUSt behave...

In my humble experience, those who appeal to reciprocity are often the first ones to utterly ignore it on their part...

mr_G
13-02-2007, 12:36:55
what is it with all your HUMBLE tralalalas
this thread sucks btw.

discussions about religion and art are endless, didn't you boys learned that during drinky drinky at Uni?

JM^3
13-02-2007, 12:39:32
So is it just that there isn't a large community of tolerant Christians?

People are either secular or agressive intolerant Christians (I think that there are also pagan, spiritualist, and muslim camps, are these groups also very agressively intollerant?)?

Jon Miller

MoSe
13-02-2007, 12:41:57
to mrG:
of course, didn't you realise I'm META-discussing?
I'm questioning methods and principles, not ideas themselves.
:p

it's (you're all) just a product of my digestion anyway, caulifowers and broccoli tralalalalaaaa burrrrruuuuaaaaappppp....

Fistandantilus
13-02-2007, 12:42:38
Originally posted by mr_G
GODDAMMIT!!!!

hmmm great relief, it helps so there must be a god afterall, let's call him DREKKUS
jesjes

:lol: You editing bastard.

Anyway, I think that a pilgrimage to the holy underwater bridge at least once in life is a must.

Imagine all the followers in awe and adoration as a walkingonwater mr_G smiles and gently punches the ladies on their left tit as a rite of initiation.

King_Ghidra
13-02-2007, 12:43:06
Originally posted by Fistandantilus
For the same reason you can't accept the idea that people can think religion/church is a great thing without being uhm well.. fucking idiots? :p

well i'm not helpless, i can moderate my disbelief in their way of thinking to the extent i even treat them like normal people :D

JM^3
13-02-2007, 12:43:15
Originally posted by mr_G
what is it with all your HUMBLE tralalalas
this thread sucks btw.

discussions about religion and art are endless, didn't you boys learned that during drinky drinky at Uni?

I am trying to keep the discussion away from religion and rather to people's response to it. I actually don't feel a strong desire to continue this discussion at this time, so I am fine with it dropping.

JM

MoSe
13-02-2007, 12:44:37
I understand now!

he checks if it's genuine, he knows silicon floats in water!

mr_G
13-02-2007, 12:46:13
well i don't mind Jon, it's just boring and i am bored already.
But hey i am the not so seriously serious one in a biblical way so i never mind the weather.

pleezz don't start a thread about Art will you

mr_G
13-02-2007, 12:48:38
Originally posted by MoSe
META-discussing is that a metaphor for BORINGSNORING

King_Ghidra
13-02-2007, 12:51:38
in fainress to jon he did have a valid question about people's experience of religion in the uk rather than general discussion of whether religion is good or not, and i'm partly to blame for derailing it, so sorry.

anyway this point needs to be repsonded to:

So is it just that there isn't a large community of tolerant Christians?

People are either secular or agressive intolerant Christians (I think that there are also pagan, spiritualist, and muslim camps, are these groups also very agressively intollerant?)?


i don't think genrally speaking any of the religious groups in the uk are aggressively intolerant. the christian church in this country is like a big cuddly sheep.

mr_G
13-02-2007, 12:52:38
:lol:

MoSe
13-02-2007, 13:07:03
:funko:

mr_G
13-02-2007, 13:08:01
:rolleyes:

MDA
13-02-2007, 13:18:21
KG, you've classified everyone that holds a religious belief into a singular group you have nothing but contempt for, characterized them as slave owners, child molesters, etc. then gone on to tell them to be silent, you don't want to hear their point of view.

present your point of view, fine, its a religion thread and anyone opening it knows its not going to be pretty, but stick with that logic you profess to have and avoid the inflammatory emotional statements and outright insults

prejudice is ugly, whether its between two religions or between people that have a religion and people that don't

Funko
13-02-2007, 13:19:29
Originally posted by Greg W
Just a quick point here. The amount of stuff we can detect or explain is growing exponentially. The fact we can't detect or explain ghosts or a god right now is not, IMHO, proof that they cannot exist. We just have no way right now of proving it either way. And thus the basis of any religion, faith.

http://www.venganza.org/

King_Ghidra
13-02-2007, 13:58:52
Originally posted by MDA
KG, you've classified everyone that holds a religious belief into a singular group you have nothing but contempt for, characterized them as slave owners, child molesters, etc. then gone on to tell them to be silent, you don't want to hear their point of view.

present your point of view, fine, its a religion thread and anyone opening it knows its not going to be pretty, but stick with that logic you profess to have and avoid the inflammatory emotional statements and outright insults

prejudice is ugly, whether its between two religions or between people that have a religion and people that don't

not true. i made a list of reasons across the spectrum which have inclined me to be anti-religious. i did not state that every religion was guilty of every thing i claimed, nor every religious person guilty of those things either. clearly that is not the case and it would be idiotic to do so.

and i don't recall telling anyone to be silent, all i said was that i didn't want jm to pm me his list of responses to my points, which was itself partly a futile attempt to keep the thread on topic, as i was conscious that i myself had deviated from it.

MOBIUS
13-02-2007, 15:13:17
ChristBeast!:shoot:

Funko
13-02-2007, 15:22:32
This thread is really entertaining MrG. Keep up the good work.

Venom
13-02-2007, 15:28:49
Is Pious Pieter enjoying the blasphemers?

mr_G
13-02-2007, 15:30:48
FokU

I'm NOT annoyed
nonononononononononononono

you meant saint Pieter hah

protein
13-02-2007, 15:31:53
Originally posted by King_Ghidra
if anyone wants to harshly reproach me, or attempt to drive me away, they're free to do so. i can stand up for myself.

i don't see anyone leaving because they were made to, if people start discussions and can't take the subsequent heat, then i guess internet discussion is not for them

my lurk post wasn't meant to mean anything. it looks like i posted it here for a reason and i really didn't. i was just lurking for old time's sake and this thread drew my attention.

to clarify, i didn't feel chased out. i was more kind of frustrated about people's lack of resistance against the pro-war fundies and got annoyed at people just wanting to be silly instead and kind of telling me not to be so militant. so i just drifted off.

at the time i couldn't be arsed or think of anything to post that wasn't along the lines of "oh my fucking god, look at what the right-wing americans are doing now, it's going to be another vietnam, wake up people, look at what they are doing!!! it's the end of humanity! fight the power!!" etc. I guess I was just shocked at some of the things going on in the world .

...and i could see i was getting probably very, very boring.

fp
13-02-2007, 15:40:04
being boring has never disqualified anyone from expressing their opinions on the internet

mr_G
13-02-2007, 15:46:38
Originally posted by protein
at the time i couldn't be arsed or think of anything to post that wasn't along the lines of "oh my fucking god, look at what the right-wing americans are doing now, it's going to be another vietnam, wake up people, look at what they are doing!!! :lol:
:beer:

Colon
13-02-2007, 16:05:43
Unfassbar.

MoSe
13-02-2007, 16:08:13
In Belgium, beer is the religion, and it transforms you in a bot, as you can see

Colon
13-02-2007, 16:15:56
Wunderbar.

mr_G
13-02-2007, 16:16:40
Unfassbar.

MOBIUS
13-02-2007, 16:36:30
Originally posted by protein
my lurk post wasn't meant to mean anything. it looks like i posted it here for a reason and i really didn't. i was just lurking for old time's sake and this thread drew my attention.

to clarify, i didn't feel chased out. i was more kind of frustrated about people's lack of resistance against the pro-war fundies and got annoyed at people just wanting to be silly instead and kind of telling me not to be so militant. so i just drifted off.

at the time i couldn't be arsed or think of anything to post that wasn't along the lines of "oh my fucking god, look at what the right-wing americans are doing now, it's going to be another vietnam, wake up people, look at what they are doing!!! it's the end of humanity! fight the power!!" etc. I guess I was just shocked at some of the things going on in the world .

...and i could see i was getting probably very, very boring.

I think the point is that it is like repeating a broken record - I'm guilty of it too!

Now of course it seems the Bush admin are pulling the same trick by trying to convince the US public that Iran is now public enemy no.1 and will need to be attacked in the near future...

The point that is abundantly clear to me is that those people STILL believing the Iraq invasion was a good thing are essentially so thick that to continue reminding them of why it was/is a bad idea is frankly a futile exercise...

Anyway, I'll support you in those threads and would certainly like to see you back here and posting!:beer:

Colon
13-02-2007, 16:59:48
Unfassbar!

devilmunchkin
13-02-2007, 19:21:41
Originally posted by JM^3

Maybe I can give my experience in the US. I hang out with mostly secular people in the US (there are places where they are a minority).
Jon Miller

correction: most places we are a minority.

Lazarus and the Gimp
13-02-2007, 20:29:03
Originally posted by MOBIUS
What is this harsh reproachment and driving away we're talking about?

Oh good. I thought it was only me who was confused about that.

It was like when I found out that I'd been driven away from Poly, and hadn't noticed.

Lazarus and the Gimp
13-02-2007, 20:33:42
I like religion. I'm just rubbish at actually possessing it.

Immortal Wombat
14-02-2007, 08:01:18
Originally posted by JM^3
Most people I know from the UK are very antiReligion. Even though I know many atheists or unreligious here in the US (most people I hang out with actually), not many I would classify as being very antiReligion.

Are most of the people you know from the UK people you met online? I would not be surprised if this is an artefact firstly of internet bias, and secondly of unconsciously selective memory. Most of the people I know are fairly indifferent to religion. There are a few crazy religion-haters, and a few more of varying degrees of devoutness, and a large number of people who don't give it a thought most of the time.

The impression I get from the internets, is that Britishers who express an opinion on the matter are more likely to be anti-religion. But again, I think this is because the kinds of places I see the discussion crop up are on sciencey sites, and religious communities are a) slower to get online, and b) more insular and lower profile.

If there is a difference, it might just be that in the UK it is much easier to express rabidly anti-religious sentiment without offending so many people. f.e. in places where religion is pervasive, and almost everyone is a church-goer, or whatever, then often just being an atheist is frowned upon, and being vocally anti-religion is an aggressive position to take. Where the whole population is idly agnostic, being an atheist isn't notable or noticed, and being vocally anti-religion is - at worst - mildly impolite. (and occasionally, very very boring)


Does the Church of England suck real bad? What is the deal? Sorry if this is a bit serious. Just wanting people's experiences on the matter.


Big cuddly sheep actually describes it quite well. Somehow over the last couple of hundred years, it has let itself become irrelevant to most people's lives. It's not it sucking that puts people off, it's just that it seems to have been demonstrated to be entirely unnecessary. By extension, if the church is not relevant, why adhere to the belief set that goes along with it? Why adhere to any centralised religious belief set at all? I suspect that many people don't actually spend a lot of time asking or answering that kind of question for themselves, but I think British society as a whole has done so. And so we have this culture where church-going is maybe 80% tea drinking and jumble sales, religion is largely ignored, and spirituality is whatever you care to piece together for yourself.


Incidentally, fp: I doubt that True Muslims outnumber True Christians yet. It's probably not even close. Even if only 4% of "Christians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_Kingdom#Religion)" are genuine. It would be interesting to know how many professed Christians/Muslims/Hindus actually practice (for some well-defined criteria).

Funko
14-02-2007, 08:59:48
Certainly a large proportion of British people who'd put Muslim down on a census question about religion would also be non-practicing.

maroule
14-02-2007, 09:09:17
Originally posted by protein
to clarify, i didn't feel chased out. i was more kind of frustrated about people's lack of resistance against the pro-war fundies and got annoyed at people just wanting to be silly instead and kind of telling me not to be so militant. so i just drifted off.



ironically, a few people here reproached the anti-wars to drive away the americans (to FFZ etc) and thought this site was shamelessly anti-american

fp
14-02-2007, 10:44:34
which is also perhaps an explanation for why people were reluctant to get into the whole prowar/antiwar debate yet again, since it has already caused a permanent split in the community.

Wombat: excellent post, btw

Funko
14-02-2007, 10:46:46
And no-one ever changed their view on such matters based on an internet discussion, so it's pointless. Your time would be as usefully spent banging your head against a wall. In my opinion.

MoSe
14-02-2007, 10:52:14
I do that too, sometimes

Tizzy
14-02-2007, 12:10:39
Explains a lot