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View Full Version : Tony Blair. Worse than Thatcher?


MOBIUS
04-01-2007, 14:36:29
Even his supposed 'good stuff' is going into meltdown...

Take the vast amounts of money pumped in the NHS - the organisation seems to be more of a basket case now than it ever was under the tories (I don't believe I actually wrote that!) with the latest fiasco to hit the papers yesterday and today...

I know for a fact that even in my limited use of it that the GP service has got far worse! Or that now that I might actually need a consultation for a dodgy knee - I might have to wait up to 18 months to see a specialist!!! My leg will have fallen off by then!:bash:

Seriously thinking about going private! (I don't believe I actually wrote that either!)

What about education? Another disaster that has seen vast amounts of money thrown into it for a backwards effect! Kids of today are leaving school illiterate and innumerate!!! I should know as I've had to rub shoulders with the end product for the last 3 years! My degree scheme even had to 'dumb down' all the maths bits due to their shocking lack of knowledge - and these are supposed to be the smart ones!

What I am saying is that Labour's supposed triumphs are just as disastrous in an insidious way than their obvious too numerous to mention fuck ups...

Tony Blair is scum - but is he actually worse than Thatcher?:eek:

Funko
04-01-2007, 14:50:54
NHS seems better to me. My GP has much better facilities in his surgery. It's easy to get an appointment, most of the local hospital has been totally rebuilt and is miles better. You'd have had a waiting list for a dodgy knee under the tories too, you just might not have been financially in a situation to consider going private then.

Literacy and numeracy are also much improved:

http://www.literacytrust.org.uk/database/stats/keystatsadult.html

I left school under the tories and my university degree course had just started having to add in basic maths classes in the first year to bring people up to standard. Although this was partly because the exam boards were to different in what they taught. Also, there are a hell of a lot more people going to uni now, so you are bound to get people who aren't as clever. Whether or not that is a good thing, I'm not sure.

Maybe it's just been so long since the Tories were in power you've forgotten what it was like?

Funko
04-01-2007, 14:52:32
Summary: Yes, it's shit now, but it seems less shit and at least the economy isn't shit.

King_Ghidra
04-01-2007, 14:55:27
i'd certainly agree with the economic assessment, but that was more brown's doing than blair's, no?

certainly i think the iraq war and american toadyism will hang like a millstone around the neck of tony's legacy, whereas thatcher's wars and toadying seemed to flatter her

maroule
04-01-2007, 15:06:52
Thatcher was more fortunate: a major piece of England was under attack, while Basra is not a corner of sacred soil (and doesn't even have sheeps)

King_Ghidra
04-01-2007, 15:18:37
Sure, i'm not comparing the wars directly, just making a point about history's likely assessment.

Funko
04-01-2007, 15:20:28
Another major positive thing - Northern Ireland peace process.

But yes, I agree the economy is mainly Brown and Blair will mainly be remembered negatively for the war/US toadying.

I think the main failures for Labour have been in the policies new labour stole from the tories. Mainly more public/private initiatives.

Funko
04-01-2007, 15:23:43
There's going to be a bit of a political vacuum when he goes, like when Thatcher went. He's been such a dominant figure in British politics and there really isn't anyone who seems to have that natural talent for power waiting in the wings for any of the other parties. Cameron is just Blair Lite, Gordon Brown doesn't have the charisma and the Lib Dems seem to be trying to beat all previous records for scandles.

King_Ghidra
04-01-2007, 15:27:18
i've had limited experience of the NHS under Blair, but anecdotal evidence from frends and suchlike has been very much positive

funko, you cited the education successes but i think the continued changes in policy and focus have been very confusing and counter-productive. we're probably closer a complete re-write of the system than we've ever been, and i'm sure that can't be seen as the successful outcome of blairite policy

speaking of things like the road and transport situation, it's a fucking horrible mess and no lie.

Funko
04-01-2007, 15:39:19
I'm not trying to imply that all is perfect and better, it's clearly not.

MOBIUS specifically mentioned illiteracy, as something he percieved to be worse these days, but that's not the case. And schools are consistently delivering better exam results (and according to a recent study I read about in the Guardian, not because the exams are dumbed down). There is clearly the problem that under Blair a lot of stuff is now being measured and it's those things that tend to improve because people naturally focus on stuff they are judged on. That makes some things hard to measure objectively.

I'd just say that my perception of stuff is that life in and around Reading is pretty good at the moment.

Where I think Blair has really done worse than I hoped is in things like crime/anti terror legislation, forcing through ID cards, the Iraq war, poor handling of the military in general.

Nills Lagerbaak
04-01-2007, 15:52:05
I heard that the reason exam results are getting better is because teachers are getting better at spoon feeding pupils with the right things to do well. So in affect students are no stoopider or cleverer.

Funko
04-01-2007, 16:02:04
Partly what I meant by:

There is clearly the problem that under Blair a lot of stuff is now being measured and it's those things that tend to improve because people naturally focus on stuff they are judged on. That makes some things hard to measure objectively.

Which in this case would mean that school league tables make exam results better, not necessarily improve educations.

Funko
04-01-2007, 16:04:07
Anyway, my main problem with the opening post is that we shouldn't be judging the state of the country on the basis of MOBIUS working with some young morons and having a bad experience of the NHS.

Lazarus and the Gimp
04-01-2007, 17:22:22
The biggest improvements in education over the past decade have been in nursery and Primary level. You sure as hell didn't see Ofsted in nurseries (coupled with grants for nursery education) under Thatcher.

Waiting list in the NHS are also down, particularly for serious stuff. In the 80's my father faced a 2-year wait for a coronary bypass, which kind of puts a dicky knee into perspective.

Anyone claiming that, on balance, Blair is worse than Thatcher was is severely deranged. Or too young to remember.

Oerdin
04-01-2007, 20:46:48
Originally posted by maroule
Thatcher was more fortunate: a major piece of England was under attack, while Basra is not a corner of sacred soil (and doesn't even have sheeps)

Sheep they have a plenty in Southern Iraq. I was surprised to see more sheep then goats.

Lazarus and the Gimp
04-01-2007, 20:48:11
Hey look! Funko just enlisted.

Beta1
04-01-2007, 21:20:00
Originally posted by Funko
Partly what I meant by:



Which in this case would mean that school league tables make exam results better, not necessarily improve educations.

Does anybody find that suprising?

Blair's current lot seem to come up with more half brained ideas than thatchers but fortunately most of them never get put into practice.


Anyone heard this mornings education masterstroke - education guides for every pupil who will spend half an hour a term telling them what they need to do to improve (cos we teachers never do that).

Would like to know where the 1200 extra man hours per term needed to deliver that are going to come from (and thats just the hands on time the admin will be plenty on top)

MoSe
08-01-2007, 14:29:18
Originally posted by Funko
Brown and Blair

http://www.nndb.com/people/170/000108843/blair-brown.jpg

Fistandantilus
08-01-2007, 17:46:42
Originally posted by Beta1
Does anybody find that suprising?

Blair's current lot seem to come up with more half brained ideas than thatchers but fortunately most of them never get put into practice.


Anyone heard this mornings education masterstroke - education guides for every pupil who will spend half an hour a term telling them what they need to do to improve (cos we teachers never do that).

Would like to know where the 1200 extra man hours per term needed to deliver that are going to come from (and thats just the hands on time the admin will be plenty on top)

What about the 'seagulling practice' teaching? You have to find the time for that too.:mad: