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Scabrous Birdseed
03-01-2007, 19:07:18
Sorry about last week. I was away.

Anyway, this excellent strategy game is apparently based on a Warcraft 3 mod, but it stands on its own and is more addictive than most similar excercises. Early decisions will greatly influence what happens in the end...

http://www.jeannettevejarano.com/games/tower-defence.html

MoSe
04-01-2007, 11:18:29
hmmm...

67, I let it run longtime in bkg while working!

Scabrous Birdseed
04-01-2007, 11:54:00
That's what so great about it!

My record is like 72. Apparently it's possible to get like 80 without cheating and closer to 90 if you extract the SWF file and place guns "on top" of the place where the monsters enter.

MoSe
04-01-2007, 12:02:28
definitely requires an upgrades chart

MoSe
04-01-2007, 12:11:44
ummm... the damages reported on the buy/upg button do NOT match those reported for the existing tower after the upgrade....

Funko
04-01-2007, 12:12:25
58 upgrades are the secret

Scabrous Birdseed
04-01-2007, 12:13:50
Originally posted by MoSe
ummm... the damages reported on the buy/upg button do NOT match those reported for the existing tower after the upgrade....

True.

Funko
04-01-2007, 12:28:48
68...

Funko
04-01-2007, 12:45:51
72

Funko
04-01-2007, 12:57:54
http://www.muf.me.uk/files/towers.jpg

I really shouldn't have built that fire tower, it was the second last one I built they are expensive and shit and it heralded the beginning of the end. I think fully upgrading a green tower for 9000 damage is a lot better value than the 3000 tower, but I still want to build one of them...

Scabrous Birdseed
04-01-2007, 13:08:37
Just got 80 for the first time.

Scabrous Birdseed
04-01-2007, 13:10:16
It's a bit cheaper than the 3000 tower (2700 or something total). The 3000 tower twice upgraded, on the other hand... (No, I've not seen it either. :))

Funko
04-01-2007, 13:32:15
Awesome damage, but the range is rubbish.

MoSe
04-01-2007, 13:37:54
Originally posted by Scabrous Birdseed
True.

actually, almost only for Nature T's, the other 2 elements are pretty accurate

MoSe
04-01-2007, 13:41:45
Originally posted by Funko
I really shouldn't have built that fire tower, it was the second last one I built they are expensive and shit and it heralded the beginning of the end. I think fully upgrading a green tower for 9000 damage is a lot better value than the 3000 tower, but I still want to build one of them...

still haven't managed to collect the 3000 tower data
$upg $cum Tower rng dmg
15 15 Small Nature 100 5
20 35 Large N. 100 10
40 75 Great N. 110 20
80 155 Master N. 150 90
160 315 Master N. 170 300
320 635 Enchanted N. 190 1013
640 1275 Supernatural 200 1458
1100 2375 Living 215 9000

18 18 Small Fire 100 4
20 38 Large F. 100 12
30 68 Advanced F. 100 36
50 118 Great F. 100 108
80 198 Super F. 100 300
600 798 Century Inferno 110 2056
1500 2298 Fire Lord Elem. 120 7021


10 10 Water 100 5
20 30 Cold Water 150 15
40 70 Ice 150 45
80 150 Frost 180 135
160 310 Master Ice 200 405
320 630 Termination 200 1215
730 1360 Ultimate Ice 200 3342
1000 2360 Ultimate Ice 215 6684
1000 3360 Ultimate Ice 300 7335

MoSe
04-01-2007, 13:53:15
up to lev.5 water ones have better range and damage, and are also cheaper except for Fire #4 & #5

W6 is better than N6 in all stats, but F6 doubles their damage, although it costs more (forget the range, with fire)
then the most advanced steps vary a lot, in # and progression

Funko
04-01-2007, 14:02:09
75 best score so far, pretty much using only green towers, and a blue to start.

Funko
04-01-2007, 14:05:03
The range makes a huge difference. The 3000 cannon might be dealing 15,000 at level 2 but it can only project that 100. With the blue/green you can hit the things for almost the entire screen distance.

90,000 damage would be awesome but I don't see how you can save up 15,000 to get that and even then it'd only work at range 90.

MoSe
04-01-2007, 14:06:48
If you place it in the middle of an U-bend, it would still keep the invaders under fire for a good while

maroule
04-01-2007, 14:18:46
53 on first attempt
I thought it would never end, and when it did, it did with a shitty score ... humpf....

MoSe
04-01-2007, 14:33:20
Also interesting to consider

1xN8: $2375 Dmg9000
2xN7: $2550 Dmg2916 :(
4XN6: $2540 Dmg4050 :hmm:
N7 wouldn't be worthy to get from N6, except as necessary step to get to N8

1xF7: $2298 Dmg 7021
3xF6: $2394 Dmg 6168 (not that lame)
Wanting Fire (why tho?) you might consider immediately fielding a new one after F6, rather than waiting the $1500 lump to accumulate fruitlessly

1xW9: $3360 Dmg 7335
W8+6+5: $3300 Dmg 8404
considering only damage, you'd better spend the $1000 on new WTs rather than getting the last W9. I haven't tested which is the actual difference in reach on the game map, between 215 and 300. And remember that you won't fire again till previous bullet hits, slowing the fire rate at longer ranges.
One W8 is instead better in damage than the same priced combo W7+6+5, Making W8 the natural goal for water, except that at that price N (and F, range apart) are better.

MoSe
04-01-2007, 15:18:42
74, at first attempt after the time invested analysing, while you were playing....

at higher levels the earnings from the kills doesnt' increase the same way their toughness does - when you fall short of killing power, you can't wait for the Living Tower upgrade and rows of Enchanteds won't fill the gap
maybe you should indeed plan well in advance to get the ultimate ones

BTW, 215 is enough to reach all the corners from the middle
Range 300 would only be required for those placed near the entrance, to keep being effective on the invaders who made it past the upper straight

King_Ghidra
04-01-2007, 15:21:37
good to see MoSe has made a bright start on his 'stop wasting time at CG' resolution

Funko
04-01-2007, 15:27:09
I basically worked that out intuitively as I was playing. :)

On my 75 go 1*W8 is the first thing I built, because Natures are too weak early on then I built only N9s when I got my highest score, and placed everything in the center of the map, or as close as possible.

Venom
04-01-2007, 16:10:33
Fuck any game that makes you do this much math.

Drekkus
04-01-2007, 16:10:38
75 after a few try outs. For a moment I thought it was just a matter of keeping on building and upgrading the green towers, but eventually you can't build them fast enough to keep track. Or i should place them better.

Oh, and :lol: @ KG

MoSe
04-01-2007, 16:19:42
:smoke:

I also already failed in my resolution to lower risks and strains:
I had 500 CHF (300+ish ) spare from last time, and rather than change them in the bank, yesterday (AFTER passing my doc's check) I went to Lugano, won more than 2k and got back at 5am...

Scabrous Birdseed
04-01-2007, 16:24:13
I got 81 just now.

I'm not going to spoil it for you but there's another factor you must take into consideration that might be one of the most important.

JM^3
04-01-2007, 16:24:21
risks and strains?

BTW, the proper attitude to take is that it is just a stumble... not a collapse.

JM

JM^3
04-01-2007, 16:27:29
extracting the SWF file?

JM

Scabrous Birdseed
04-01-2007, 16:30:16
http://www.jeannettevejarano.com/tower-defence.swf

D'uh. (I wasn't using that to score my result though.)

maroule
04-01-2007, 16:31:37
72, with a strat of sticking only to the fully upgraded nature.... obviously I'm missing the last extra notch here

full nature has the best damage (it's shite in the meantime but great at the end)

I'd say positionning near the curves is great (more shots) but you loose on the distance

Funko
04-01-2007, 16:56:56
ok I just got 75 despite having to stop playing at 55 and go and look at something work related. Think I have worked out Scabby's secret extra factor.

MoSe
04-01-2007, 17:03:15
I'm struggling to find a strat allowing me to pass 5-10th level using only 2 natures in the middle and not losing any life...
so far I think beginning with an Ice tower is unavoidable

Fact is, you get money from kills, and what you can spend is a given.
If you leave some invaders thru you also lose its reward, on top of 1 life.
So, I thought, planning from the start to spend only what strictly necessary, making it effective thru good placement, might give you that money edge past lev.65 to pay for the 15000 upgrade before it's too late.

as Funko also pointed out, a dmg 9000 gun covering only 50% of the track is as good as a 6000 one covering 75%

MoSe
04-01-2007, 17:04:11
.

Funko
04-01-2007, 17:13:55
Yeah, i found you had to start with one blue.

MoSe
04-01-2007, 17:15:52
but only pay 2 upgrades, then go for greens

Immortal Wombat
04-01-2007, 17:58:20
75 still. hmm

Scabrous Birdseed
04-01-2007, 19:53:01
Originally posted by Funko
Yeah, i found you had to start with one blue.

It's actually completely possible to just use greens. Somone in this thread is on the right track...

fp
04-01-2007, 21:22:15
74

Koyaanisqatsi
05-01-2007, 03:46:23
75 the first time, 81 the second. Probably can go a bit higher, but not a whole lot. The math doesn't work out much above that.

maroule
05-01-2007, 08:20:13
there aren't many variables to play with so it must be related to
- number of shots (itself related to the distance to the target)
- possible combo (ex. having all type of towers shooting make increasing damages, but it doesn't seem so)
- price/damage ratio of upgrades

so, in all, placement and choice of towers. I know, I'm brilliant.

Funko
05-01-2007, 08:54:35
MoSe's covered choice of towers, so what does that leave?

Scabrous Birdseed
05-01-2007, 09:01:42
Originally posted by maroule
- number of shots (itself related to the distance to the target)


That's not how the number of shots is calculated.

Funko
05-01-2007, 09:12:34
81 with the new technique

maroule
05-01-2007, 09:22:11
Originally posted by Scabrous Birdseed
That's not how the number of shots is calculated.

then it's rotation speed of turret / inner capability of each turret

nature ones look the slowest to rotate.

Mose was underlining that you only shoot once the previous shot has reached target so that leaves us with a big bonus for quick fire once you get a long reach. Shots seem to be travelling at the same speed.

Funko
05-01-2007, 09:23:23
That's not it either.

JM^3
05-01-2007, 09:26:10
I got 77 with poor placement

You can only place 2 of the gray 9090 damage ones, and I think that they are likely not better than a fully upgraded green one.

JM

JM^3
05-01-2007, 09:29:59
btw, I found that out the hard way when I tried to place my third grey, and it eliminated one of my first two.

JM

Funko
05-01-2007, 09:30:37
I think that's a bug, I had 2 green towers vanish once, but it didn't happen again.

Scabrous Birdseed
05-01-2007, 09:33:53
That's indeed a bug. It's happened to me before too, sometimes early, sometimes late in a game.

maroule
05-01-2007, 09:39:17
the flower tower is funny
after the first upgrade to 9090 damage, you get a second one for 5k price, 15k damage, but range drops from 150 to 100! then for 15k price, you get 909090 damage!!! needless to say, I lost at 53 trying to get the money

JM^3
05-01-2007, 09:42:35
Argh, just lsot a green tower.

But I don't think I would have gotten past 77 again, and I don't think my placement was as bad this time... are grey towers a bad idea?

BTW, my begining is this:

purchase 1 level 2 green
purchase 1 level 1 green

wait a few rounds, upgrade to level 3 green

wait a few more rounds, upgrade to level 4 green

then it is pretty much cake until level 50something (just keep upgrading for the top level

you do have to upgrade midcombat though

JM

JM^3
05-01-2007, 09:43:04
Oh,s o you can upgrade i that far!?

JM

Funko
05-01-2007, 09:48:42
As scabby said, if you buy 1 level 2 green tower at the beginning, and put it in the right place, you can just keep defeating the stacks with it if you upgrade it when the money is available.

Scabrous Birdseed
05-01-2007, 09:51:39
In fact, there are (if I count correctly) 16 "right places" that work for the first tower.

MoSe
05-01-2007, 09:56:42
Originally posted by MoSe
74, at first attempt after the time invested analysing, while you were playing....

at higher levels the earnings from the kills doesnt' increase the same way their toughness does - when you fall short of killing power, you can't wait for the Living Tower upgrade and rows of Enchanteds won't fill the gap Originally posted by Funko
I basically worked that out intuitively as I was playing. :)

On my 75 go 1*W8 is the first thing I built, because Natures are too weak early on then I built only N9s when I got my highest score, and placed everything in the center of the map, or as close as possible. Originally posted by Drekkus
75 after a few try outs. For a moment I thought it was just a matter of keeping on building and upgrading the green towers, but eventually you can't build them fast enough to keep track. Or i should place them better. Originally posted by maroule
72, with a strat of sticking only to the fully upgraded nature.... obviously I'm missing the last extra notch here
full nature has the best damage (it's shite in the meantime but great at the end)
I'd say positionning near the curves is great (more shots) but you loose on the distance Originally posted by MoSe
I'm struggling to find a strat allowing me to pass 5-10th level using only 2 natures in the middle and not losing any life...
so far I think beginning with an Ice tower is unavoidable Originally posted by Immortal Wombat
75 still. hmm

new technique?
bastards!

I had a few gos this morning, and couldn't manage to get past initial levels with more than 6 lives sticking to only greens, despite tryng al kinds of placements.
I found I had to build 4 green with 2 upgrades, one covering the 1st bend the others in the middle.
Waiting for the $80 needed for the 3rd up giving you dmg90 is impossible (to me) with just 3 N3 towers.
So, once you get an N4, it's downhill, you don't lose any more life. But at some point, I was waitin for the 23K to accumulate, and one last invader trickled thru, then another on the next wawe, I found I had to add express N9, but finally died at 75...

so, I should look for a whole different approach, as now a few of you got it, it means it must be feasible without cheating....

Scabrous Birdseed
05-01-2007, 10:00:12
Nope, no cheating. All we're doing is understanding a very important property of the towers...

Like I said, I'm not gonna spoil it for ya. It was spolied for me which made it Less Fun.

maroule
05-01-2007, 10:06:33
Originally posted by Scabrous Birdseed
All we're doing is understanding a very important property of the towers...

It was spolied for me .


so, condescending fucktrumpet, all you're really understanding is what somebody else told you

Funko
05-01-2007, 10:06:48
At first I thought the thing we are talking about was a graphical glitch/bug but it turns out it's actually a deliberate property of tower shooting. If Scabby hadn't said there was something else to look out for I might never have guessed it.

maroule
05-01-2007, 10:11:15
maybe firing in straight lines is good, no time lost on turret rotation
so place turret with the longest straight line of fire
will try now

maroule
05-01-2007, 10:29:10
77 with this new placement
are turrets preventing one another to fire? I had the feeling at some point they needed a clean line of fire but couldn't say for sure

Funko
05-01-2007, 10:31:43
Did you get invisible bullets when shooting down the straight lines?

maroule
05-01-2007, 10:42:03
for the turrets positionned facing the straight line, the rate of fire is very quick, but visible

in some case (overlap) the turrets were facing the incoming dots (and not rotating aimlessly, as they do), but the shots were indeed invisible (or non existent), if there was a turret in front

Funko
05-01-2007, 10:46:50
If you get the turret lined up exactly in the middle of a straight run the bullets turn invisible and it seems to do loads more damage/fire faster. Can't really tell which as you can't see the bullets.

You can see it most clearly on your first turret, I normally sit it at the bottom of the first straight, where the dots appear.

MoSe
05-01-2007, 11:00:45
Originally posted by maroule
maybe firing in straight lines is good, no time lost on turret rotation
so place turret with the longest straight line of fire Originally posted by Funko
You can see it most clearly on your first turret, I normally sit it at the bottom of the first straight, where the dots appear.

???

that was my approache on the FIRST attempts at the game, then I thought that in the middle of the bends, they'd get more coverage = more overall shots...

I noticed that turrets swing re-aiming at the etrance at each cycle, I didn't observe any significant advantage for those more on the left side...

when I had straight-aligned turrets on my firsts, I DID observe some invisibullets from turrets supposedly in range, and I thought it was misfiring, so I *abandoned* that strat.....

:confused:

Funko
05-01-2007, 11:03:53
Yeah, I thought it was a glitch and discounted it until Scabby started hinting...

MoSe
05-01-2007, 11:05:14
:clueless:

it works indeed... I must have introduced other variables which muddled my firts obs... or I wasn't trained enough yet to understand what to look! :D

MoSe
05-01-2007, 11:08:06
OK, I got Living Tower at bottom of 1st straight during wave 23.
but there's no place under it, and any other alingment will have the turret swing.....
Let's see....

maroule
05-01-2007, 11:13:41
Originally posted by Funko
If you get the turret lined up exactly in the middle of a straight run the bullets turn invisible and it seems to do loads more damage/fire faster. Can't really tell which as you can't see the bullets.




I tried that, but still couldn't break 77

Scabrous Birdseed
05-01-2007, 11:27:11
You can pile towers without them getting in each others' line of fire. I think. On my 81, I seem to remember I had two towers firing up straight three, three firing down straight four, three firing up straight six, one between straight two and straight eight and one each firing up/down straight seven.

It seems it's not just about firing straight, some placements work better than others. The "second tower" firing up straight six is a good early placement, and placing a tower right on top of the screen firing down straight 3 manages to hit quite a few unexpected monsters right at the start.

(up=monsters approaching, down=monsters leaving)

Funko
05-01-2007, 11:33:54
http://www.muf.me.uk/files/towers.jpg

MoSe
05-01-2007, 11:43:15
I tried placn the first one at the end of straight 2, where you have 3, it allows yo toget past 1st levels anyway.
thus I reserved bottom 1st straight for a Flower Power, but loss in range was decisive.
got to 78 that way.
on a previous attempt, whe I tried to place two green on bot sides of top corner (where you have 2+2) I lost the existing tower. I accepted the loss, when I tried to replace the one lost, I lost the other! I didn't attempt again to double corners....

still in maroule's disposition he did it sistematically without problems...

Funko
05-01-2007, 11:48:46
Updated that image with the order I built them (fairly accurate)

MoSe
05-01-2007, 11:49:00
it seems to me that invisibullets get fired in doublets, you see early invaders die in couples....

Funko
05-01-2007, 11:54:07
Main reason for putting hte first one on the first straight, I'm lazy and can't be arsed to wait for the dots to go all round the houses before being slaughtered like rats.

MoSe
05-01-2007, 12:26:05
almost 82 ;)

i still get corner neighbors eliminating each other, if they're both touching the road. I have to leave a pixel or two.

MoSe
05-01-2007, 12:38:16
and yes, there's a 3rd tower on top, almost outside the window...
:D

MoSe
05-01-2007, 12:43:25
Originally posted by MoSe
OK, I got Living Tower at bottom of 1st straight during wave 23.
but there's no place under it,

ERROR!
Towers CAN partially overlap!!!!
:smoke:

Fistandantilus
05-01-2007, 12:56:44
:lol: so you reached the infamous 82 yet?

JM^3
05-01-2007, 13:20:34
I think that if you can somehow get it setup to save 23000 that the flower would be worth it. And maybe that is the way to get to 90 without cheating, but I haven't seen how to set them up to do this.

And this has taken up a lot of my time, great game!

JM

JM^3
05-01-2007, 13:26:26
The damage per cost is of course very important. Especially for the Straights.

Nature 8: 3.79
Fire 7: 3.06
Water 9: 2.18
Flower 1: 3.03
Flower 2: 1.97
Flower 3: 39.52!
Thunder 1: .5 (has anyone explored Thunder more?)

I am thinking that if there were some way to make it to Flower 3, that would be the win (level 90).

JM

MoSe
05-01-2007, 13:49:49
Originally posted by Fistandantilus
:lol: so you reached the infamous 82 yet?

almost 83!
last invader storming the castle was almost a ghost

overlapping ust be a glitch...
you can't unless the placement box is flashing red/white, and that occurs only if there's a turret swinging somewhere....
even then you have to attempt several times, sometimes works, some not.

MoSe
05-01-2007, 13:59:18
Originally posted by JM^3
I think that if you can somehow get it setup to save 23000 that the flower would be worth it. JM
the holy grail of this game, yeah...

single LivingT down 1st straight grant no dot past first conrner till wave 50
doubling that tower, only gets you more 8 waves, an in wave 60~ the also get past 2nd corner and soon out of reach of welcom battery
IIRC by that time I had spared 9-10k money

you see that to get my 81, I had built 13 towers
for the 82 I was still completing the 13th...

to get the 909090 you should renounce to 10 Living towers....
I doubt that with just 3 (and the Flower Power waiting the upgrail) you can get past 65...

worth testing, at least to gain insight on a strat parameter

JM^3
05-01-2007, 14:01:39
at level 66 I have:

1xFlower 2
3xNature 8
6000+ Money

I am not at all sure if the 15000 is doable. Maybe with a couple of well placed Water 6s? or something?

Jon Miller

MoSe
05-01-2007, 14:08:36
Originally posted by JM^3
Thunder 1: .5 (has anyone explored Thunder more?)
JM

it's an early game one-off tower, non-upgradable.
W2 costs 30 per 15dmg
thunder 40 per 20 dmg
W3 70 per 45 dmg

now that this tactic was found, there's no need for either

One could try to get the Top Blue down the straight, as 215 range begins barely before the straight half so 300 could make a diff for a while

JM^3
05-01-2007, 14:12:50
Yeah, I know that for the longer ones the N8 range isn't enough. Also, at lower levels water is very cost effective (I don't know what Fire is about). So I am trying to think how we might get enough money before level 75 say...

JM

JM^3
05-01-2007, 14:18:41
See, I could see getting Flower2 + 10k at level 60... but getting more then that would be difficult.

JM

Fistandantilus
05-01-2007, 16:56:53
It's not very well designed if you have to build only one type of tower to win/reach 90 points... the original is much more varied, ice towers slow down the intruders, fire ones have short range but hit multiple targets and so on. Still this is one of the best fgotw :beer:

MoSe
05-01-2007, 17:02:52
but what do Nature towers shoot, almonds????

Qaj the Fuzzy Love Worm
05-01-2007, 17:05:33
They're filled with monkeys.

fp
05-01-2007, 18:43:19
81 now

Koyaanisqatsi
05-01-2007, 18:52:26
Originally posted by Fistandantilus
It's not very well designed if you have to build only one type of tower to win/reach 90 points... the original is much more varied, ice towers slow down the intruders, fire ones have short range but hit multiple targets and so on. Still this is one of the best fgotw :beer:
It's good, but I still like this (http://www.davidbhowe.net/cd/main.htm) version better. (Of course, that requires a download and install, don't know if it's against the rules or not...)

Qaj the Fuzzy Love Worm
05-01-2007, 20:30:50
So when firing non-diagonally, the bullets move at "infinite" speed? I'd call that an exploit/bug.

Qaj the Fuzzy Love Worm
05-01-2007, 21:00:22
80