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View Full Version : Fred Stolen: (from someone else who also stole it) Self vs Littlejohn


Funko
20-12-2006, 16:38:43
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1390395.stm

Brilliant.

Funko
20-12-2006, 16:46:23
ps. Copycatting this one should be a nice challenge.

King_Ghidra
20-12-2006, 16:46:38
That is fucking awesome.

Will Self tends to go up and down in my estimation as a writer and person, but he is certainly a very clever and witty man.

SELF: Does it turn into Tolstoy at page 205?

LITTLEJOHN: No it doesn't turn into Tolstoy. I don't set out to be Tolstoy. It is a much more complex book than that.

SELF:Than Tolstoy?


:lol:

Funko
20-12-2006, 16:49:53
That was my favourite bit too. :beer:

A recent Littlejohn column (spotted on popbitch...)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/columnists/columnists.html?in_article_id=423549&in_page_id=1772&in_author_id=322&expand=true

Let's get the caveat out of the way from the off. The five women murdered in Ipswich were tragic, lost souls who met a grisly end. I sincerely hope whoever killed them is caught, charged and convicted.

No one with a shred of humanity would wish upon them their ghastly lives and horrible deaths. But Mother Teresa, they weren't.

...

in the scheme of things the deaths of these five women is no great loss.

They weren't going to discover a cure for cancer or embark on missionary work in Darfur. The only kind of missionary position they undertook was in the back seat of a car.

...

Frankly, I'm tired of the lame excuses about how they all fell victim to ruthless pimps who plied them with drugs. These women were on the streets because they wanted to be.

A vile man.

Lazarus and the Gimp
20-12-2006, 16:52:11
The one drawback with that article is that I read "How the dead live" and thought it was utter shit.

Fistandantilus
20-12-2006, 16:52:18
Way long but an entertaining read :D

King_Ghidra
20-12-2006, 16:53:31
Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
The one drawback with that article is that I read "How the dead live" and thought it was utter shit.

that doesn't surprise me, i have read a couple of will self novels and unfortunately he isn't the bastard child of j g ballard and william burroughs that he thinks he is

Lazarus and the Gimp
20-12-2006, 16:55:28
I keep giving Self second chances. I read "Cock and Bull" and hated it. I read "My idea of fun" and hated it. I read "How the deal live" and hated it. It's just misanthropic drivel hacked out by someone whose aim seems to be purely a self-serving attempt to impress his own intelligence on you. Reading a Self novel is like trying to swallow mouthfuls of sand.

Funko
20-12-2006, 16:56:23
hacked out by someone whose aim seems to be purely a self-serving attempt to impress his own intelligence on you

Sounds like debates on poly.

Funko
20-12-2006, 16:57:22
(from the article) the concept of How the dead live sounds interesting, but it's basically the same as the plot of Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey isn't it. ie. our album covers totally lied to us, man.

King_Ghidra
20-12-2006, 17:00:07
Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
I read "My idea of fun" and hated it.

Yeah i read that one. I didn't hate it, but it started quite brightly and then didn't really go anywhere except into nastiness, which seems to be a problem of his. Interesting ideas that don't end up being interesting novels.

fp
20-12-2006, 18:19:47
Brilliant transcript. It's nice to see the extreme left and extreme right of the political divide both making complete asses of themselves.

Funko
20-12-2006, 18:22:50
I don't think Will Self made an ass of himself in that piece.

fp
20-12-2006, 18:25:26
His pomposity and pretentiousness shine through in almost every sentence. As usual. Granted he didn't really express enough political views to make himself look silly, though - unlike Littlejohn.

self biased
20-12-2006, 19:03:46
summary? did i win?

Dyl Ulenspiegel
20-12-2006, 19:43:46
A loser is you.

self biased
21-12-2006, 02:44:21
shit.

King_Ghidra
21-12-2006, 09:26:35
I wouldn't have put Will Self on the extreme left by any means.

I'm very much in agreement with this comment:

What does it say on the passport - the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland - that is actual latest constitutional formulation of what Britain is. I regard myself as a citizen of an archipelago that happens to be called Britain.

Fistandantilus
21-12-2006, 09:36:48
So you're not british?

maroule
21-12-2006, 09:53:10
some identities (national and religious) tend to be understood as exclusive, and binary: "So you're not british?" forces you to say yes or no, and pigeon hole yourself

A lot of people, myself included, don't want to be 'just' *insert nationality*, because your passport isn't the end of your identity, just one thread of it. The fact that we have seen the Nations as the driving force of pretty much everything blinds us to the fairly transitory nature of that idea (dominant only since about 200 years, and probably not here to stay forever, one hopes)

Amin Maalouf explains very well in "murderous identities", that one has the right to be more than one thing, especially when like him your identities conflict (he is arab, christian, lebanese, Francophone, etc).

Every time you allow one single identity to rule supreme, and accept to be only that, you loose the main part of yourself.

Fistandantilus
21-12-2006, 10:17:38
Wow. Never gave that much importance to that, to me it's just a geographical term.
I met people who feel like "I'm not british, I'm english" or use the term "European" to address people on the continent only. It just confuses me sometimes.

maroule
21-12-2006, 10:25:39
If you read (mainly) the right wing press anywhere in the world, you'll see how important the idea of nationality is to a lot of people (it's really the anchor of their sense of identity)

In times of conflict or crises, it become even more strident (we've had some recent examples here)

Funko
21-12-2006, 10:32:20
If they say "I'm not British, I'm English" they are a moron.

Using the phrase "European" to talk about people, countries or issues that only include things on the continent (excluding the UK) is very common here.

King_Ghidra
21-12-2006, 11:02:08
As maroule mentioned in his first post, for me it's about not having my own identity defined by preconceptions of what people take to mean British.

Why should my own identity be subsumed under some ridiculous stereotype of a polite, tea-drinking, weather-obsessesed sexually-repressed, monarchy-loving xenophobe.

I detest the notion that i have something in common with anyone who lives in this place simply on the basis that we were born in geographical proximity. I have nothing in common with most poeple anywhere, least of all the kind of idiot who is British and proud of it and thinks that that actually means something.

I'm anti-nation on a fundamental level. Bring on the global village.

Lazarus and the Gimp
21-12-2006, 11:11:33
Originally posted by Funko
If they say "I'm not British, I'm English" they are a moron.



Actually, I do say that. As far as I'm concerned "Britain" is just an act of cultural hegemonisation from centuries ago. I acknowledge that there is some sort of official state called "Britain" that I live in, but I'm definitely English.

Arguments like that really upset the BNP.

Funko
21-12-2006, 11:14:54
Moron.

King_Ghidra
21-12-2006, 11:14:58
What does being english mean, other than acknowledging you are part of some fairly well-defined geographical boundary?

Funko
21-12-2006, 11:15:53
Speaking of the BNP, The Guardian published some interesting and entirely unsurprising stuff today about them hiding their true agenda from the public etc. *shock*

Lazarus and the Gimp
21-12-2006, 11:18:53
Originally posted by King_Ghidra
What does being english mean, other than acknowledging you are part of some fairly well-defined geographical boundary?

It means you're of largely Anglo-Saxon descent and speak an Anglo-Saxon language.

Lazarus and the Gimp
21-12-2006, 11:19:52
Originally posted by Funko
Speaking of the BNP, The Guardian published some interesting and entirely unsurprising stuff today about them hiding their true agenda from the public etc. *shock*

Got a link for it? I like keeping tabs on the enemy.

King_Ghidra
21-12-2006, 11:20:02
As long as that's all you mean or claim to be part of then that's super.

Lazarus and the Gimp
21-12-2006, 11:24:32
It isn't all. I also identify with English historical mores as well. However, as I've seriously studied Saxon history that means I'm not alluding to the bizarre stew of Norman/Anglo-Indian and Scottish influences normally passed off as "English". More the proto-democratic and artistic values of the late Saxon state.

King_Ghidra
21-12-2006, 11:30:28
That's something of a niche movement, i'm sure, but at least it's specific.

What i can't abide is the idiotic combination of 'I'm British and proud'. 'So what does being British mean?' 'Well....umm...' [followed inevitably by some codswallop about having respect or some equally illogical self-referential idea about Queen and Country or something, or just silence].

Lazarus and the Gimp
21-12-2006, 11:40:06
What you can really call "British" is that bizarre Georgian/Victorian self-help tradition (largely from the non-conformist religions) that's like Socialism entirely stripped of politics. From that you get Friendly Societies, Building societies, mutual companies, the Co-op, and the foundations from which unions, the NHS and Welfare State grew.

That's all good stuff.

Funko
21-12-2006, 11:51:23
Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
Got a link for it? I like keeping tabs on the enemy.

Yeah, all over the front page.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/farright/story/0,,1976649,00.html

Funko
21-12-2006, 11:52:46
Originally posted by King_Ghidra
That's something of a niche movement, i'm sure, but at least it's specific.

What i can't abide is the idiotic combination of 'I'm British and proud'. 'So what does being British mean?' 'Well....umm...' [followed inevitably by some codswallop about having respect or some equally illogical self-referential idea about Queen and Country or something, or just silence].

Totally agree.

King_Ghidra
21-12-2006, 11:53:11
Perhaps, but in the 21st century that's hardly peculiarly British anymore. On that basis, anyone with vaguely benevolent socialist leanings can be British.

And in terms of the general argument, i'm sure that when the average punter proclaims themselves proud to be british they don't mean 'i love the co-operative movement.'

King_Ghidra
21-12-2006, 11:59:45
Clearly what they mean is: I love living in this wealthy temperate western country that has a great history of shitting over various parts of the world and being quite important. I'm really rather miffed that we're america's lap dogs these days but at least we don't have to hang around with those smelly french too much, even though the channel tunnel and easyjet are great. I love the english language and it's great that i don't have to bother learning any others. Being arrogant and talking emptily about past successes suits me right down to the ground, because it means there's no pressure to achieve anything, still if only we'd win a world cup or something now and again it would be even better.

:cute:

Debaser
21-12-2006, 12:00:33
Originally posted by King_Ghidra
And in terms of the general argument, i'm sure that when the average punter proclaims themselves proud to be british they don't mean 'i love the co-operative movement.'

I was glad when they turned it into a Primark.

Funko
21-12-2006, 12:02:51
:lol:

Lazarus and the Gimp
21-12-2006, 12:34:16
Originally posted by King_Ghidra
Perhaps, but in the 21st century that's hardly peculiarly British anymore. On that basis, anyone with vaguely benevolent socialist leanings can be British.


You'd struggle to find mutual building societies, trust-based final salary pensions and friendly societies on the scale that they're found in Britain. It really is a peculiarity.


And in terms of the general argument, i'm sure that when the average punter proclaims themselves proud to be british they don't mean 'i love the co-operative movement.'

Exactly. And as they don't actually have a clue what they're talking about, I'm happy to provide nicely liberal examples.

Lazarus and the Gimp
21-12-2006, 12:40:12
Originally posted by Funko
Yeah, all over the front page.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/farright/story/0,,1976649,00.html

That's not much of a story, really.


The BNP already has significant numbers of members living in those areas. They include Peter Bradbury, a leading proponent of complementary medicine who has links to Prince Charles, Richard Highton, a healthcare regulator, and Simone Clarke, principal dancer with the English National Ballet.

There are also dozens of company directors, computing entrepreneurs, bankers and estate agents among the 200 members and lapsed members living in central London. One member is a servant of the Queen residing at Buckingham Palace, while a number are former Conservative party activists.



The campaign manager for Ian Duncan Smith's bid to become Tory leader was Nick Griffin's father. He later got kicked out of the Tory party for recruiting for the BNP.

Funko
21-12-2006, 13:06:19
No, as I said it's not really shocking. The associated story is here, did you read that one?:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/farright/story/0,,1976613,00.html

Lazarus and the Gimp
21-12-2006, 13:28:30
Brilliant!


Among my members, I discover, is Simone Clarke, principal dancer with the English National Ballet. During a subsequent conversation, Ms Clarke says that she believes immigration "has really got out of hand", despite her partner, both on and off-stage, being a Cuban dancer of Chinese extraction. She adds: "If everyone who thinks like I do joined, it would really make a difference."



That's the "Silly bint of the year" award settled.

Funko
22-12-2006, 15:54:20
More today:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/farright/story/0,,1977519,00.html

I guess they'll keep running with this.

Nills Lagerbaak
22-12-2006, 15:59:40
Simple fact - you don't choose where you're born.

I am a global citizen, with a nomadic mentality