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maroule
07-12-2006, 10:28:44
I was thinking, reading the papers, about the inflection of US policy on Iraq. So it got me reflecting on a post mortem to some of our discussions here almost 4 years ago, and at the risk of labouring a point in the direction of some people (a lot of whom left), I can now say without being targeted as an "enemy of the US":

- The Iraq war has been a disaster. It will even get worse.

- It is making the world an unsafe place, and for all the ressources and lives wasted on it, "we" (the US and the rest of the "free world") have won nothing out of it. The only obvious winners have been Iran, and to a lesser extend North Korea.

- the US has never been more hated and blamed the world over


Remember, saying that here caused a mass exodus to FFZ... but that was before the Congress said it...

One assertion is still disputable, but likely to come true:

- Bush Jr will go down in history as the worst US president ever


Now that Baker (a communist), Rumsfeld (!) and most americans agree, will Faux News eat humble pie? Will the morons who poured French wine in the gutters (to punish the yellow liver frogs for daring to say it was a bad idea) reflect on their past stupidity? Will all the cheerleaders of a policy that costed dearly the US for no benefit acknowledge their mistake?

Don't hold your breath. They'll simply pretend it never happened.

Funko
07-12-2006, 10:32:50
Summary: I told you so *smug*

mr_G
07-12-2006, 10:33:55
ok ok ok hell is freezing ovah.
I agree with a Frenchy

Fistandantilus
07-12-2006, 11:08:11
The great schism :(

DaShi
07-12-2006, 11:20:00
OMG! I can't believe what a US hater you are Maroule! I'm leaving here to go talk to people who believe the same naive things I do and cover their ears and eyes in the face of anything of contrary! I hate you! :cry:

DaShi
07-12-2006, 11:20:54
:hmm: I hope that wasn't too subtle.

Funko
07-12-2006, 11:28:47
No, don't worry.

MOBIUS
07-12-2006, 11:35:44
Originally posted by maroule
Don't hold your breath. They'll simply pretend it never happened.

There isn't much point in pointing out the obvious here, the ones that thought otherwise left long ago...

MattHiggs
07-12-2006, 11:36:49
Is FFZ still going?

MOBIUS
07-12-2006, 11:37:28
Wanna go check?

Funko
07-12-2006, 11:41:17
Originally posted by maroule
- The Iraq war has been a disaster. It will even get worse.

Not sure if it was reported in France but Blair responded to a question on an Al Jazeera TV interview the other day thusly:

Sir David Frost "Blah blah blah... the war in Iraq has been pretty much a disaster."
Blair "It has..."

Full quote:

Tony Blair went close last night to admitting that the invasion of Iraq had been disastrous. Challenged in an interview on Al-Jazeera’s new English-language channel that the Western intervention in Iraq had “so far been pretty much of a disaster”, he gave a brief agreement before swiftly moving on.

He said: “It has, but you see what I say to people is why is it difficult in Iraq? It is not difficult because of some accident in planning, it is difficult because there is a deliberate strategy, al-Qaeda with Sunni insurgents on one hand, Iranian-backed elements with Shia militias on the other, to create a situation in which the will of the majority for peace is displaced by the will of the minority for war.”

I have no idea how not anticipating that there'd be problems like that is not an error in planning.

maroule
07-12-2006, 12:30:59
Originally posted by MOBIUS
There isn't much point in pointing out the obvious here, the ones that thought otherwise left long ago...

if we needed a point to talk in CG, the place would be pretty silent


I was less talking of the CG population than all these political/media commentators who called people traitors and ingrates for pointing out the likely consequence of the invasion.

Funko
07-12-2006, 13:26:36
The "You either support the war or are a traitor!" was a very useful political tool to get enough public support for the war. It certainly worked.

King_Ghidra
07-12-2006, 13:33:20
well at the minimum, this thread made me go back and read some of the iraq war and 9/11 threads, which was an interesting experience

fp
07-12-2006, 13:40:03
How does pouring wine into the gutter punish French people?

Funko
07-12-2006, 13:47:39
They can't bear to see it wasted.

It'd be like getting some fries and throwing them in a drain in front of Venom.

maroule
07-12-2006, 13:48:35
I never figured that out
It certainly helped our exports of our crapiest wine (I can't imagine anyone, even Bill O'Reilly, pouring Romanet Conti down the gutter)

maroule
07-12-2006, 13:49:17
Originally posted by King_Ghidra
well at the minimum, this thread made me go back and read some of the iraq war and 9/11 threads, which was an interesting experience

I did that the other day
I wanted to publish some chosen extracts, but was too lazy

MOBIUS
07-12-2006, 14:14:26
Originally posted by King_Ghidra
well at the minimum, this thread made me go back and read some of the iraq war and 9/11 threads, which was an interesting experience

Very. A bunch of us basically said what was going to happen, and it has...

All very sad really - what a total waste...:(

Fistandantilus
07-12-2006, 14:40:01
Originally posted by maroule
I did that the other day
I wanted to publish some chosen extracts, but was too lazy

I can't believe lazyness prevented you to do that, really.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
07-12-2006, 15:26:06
Originally posted by Funko
Summary: I told you so *smug*

We told them so *smug* :D

As for the exiles, I doubt they will realise the Iraq desaster during their lifetime.

DaShi
07-12-2006, 15:30:25
Some of them still believe that the only mistake we made in Vietnam was leaving.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
07-12-2006, 16:09:38
STAY THE COURSE!

Nills Lagerbaak
07-12-2006, 16:54:19
The sadly the consequences are not limited to Iraq. Torture has now become acceptable, civil liberties have been eroded and generally people have regressed...

MOBIUS
07-12-2006, 16:56:30
USA! USA! USA!

King_Ghidra
07-12-2006, 17:08:27
and they confiscated my orange juice before i got on the plane, despite the fact that i clearly had a hangover

it's sickening

Nills Lagerbaak
07-12-2006, 17:14:58
A pack of wild dogs woulld behave better.

Diss
07-12-2006, 18:15:30
I have a solution to the Iraq war.

We forcibly emigrate all the citizens from that country and bring them to the U.S.

C.G.B. Spender
07-12-2006, 19:13:47
Whatever happened to all the WMD?
Ah, here
http://i.cnn.net/cnn/interactive/world/0302/gallery.powell.un/gallery.11.mobile.bio.jpg
and
http://www.kaleidoshop.de/produktkatalog/produktgrafiken/brio-gueterwagen.jpg

MDA
07-12-2006, 20:29:26
I wasn't a supporter of the initial invasion, but the half-assed attempt to turn that country around was our greatest failure. Once committed, I supported getting the job done right. If you're going to invade another country with the intent of removing bad people from power and making that country a better place for everyone to live in, you'd better be prepared to undergo some hardship at home and go all out on rebuilding and supporting the country you invade. There's been a war on for a few years now, and you'd never guess it if it wasn't reported in the news. Just looking around, nothing appears to have changed here at home. No shortages of anything but Playstations. There should have been a massive commitment and redistribution of US economic and industrial power put toward rebuilding and stabilizing that country, and it should have been felt here at home. News reports about the people killed is about all we see.

congratulations, you people that said we'd fail were right

It doesn't feel good, though, knowing Iraq is no better for the botched effort. *smug* has an awfully bitter taste to it

fp
07-12-2006, 22:55:14
Originally posted by MDA

It doesn't feel good, though, knowing Iraq is no better for the botched effort.

The sad thing is that I think it really does make some people happy. The staunchest anti-war, anti-american people seem genuinely pleased that Iraq is a gigantic shithole and that the US/UK effort to rebuild the country has failed. A pathetic minority would rather see Bush and Blair proved wrong than the Iraqi people live in freedom and safety.

mr_G
07-12-2006, 22:58:36
I'm almost always happy the pappy.

wooooooooohoooooooooooooooooooo :bounce:

Chris
08-12-2006, 02:38:37
Not only was the war the correct choice, it was the only choice possible.

I see that because it didn't work out as hoped the smug think this somehow vindicates their assertion that Iraqis were better off being opressed and stepped on daily.

Well, it didn't work out as hoped, but if you think this lets France off the hook for being an active supporter of Saddam you are dead bang crazy, nor does it make any of you corect that it would have been better to continue a status quo that created a growing fury of islamic terrorism throughout the middle east, which began I will remind some of you with short memories, LONG before Iraq.

All some of you prove is its better to submit and let other suffer then to try and stop it.

I hope that makes you happy.

Funko
08-12-2006, 09:09:18
Originally posted by MDA
I wasn't a supporter of the initial invasion, but the half-assed attempt to turn that country around was our greatest failure. Once committed, I supported getting the job done right. If you're going to invade another country with the intent of removing bad people from power and making that country a better place for everyone to live in, you'd better be prepared to undergo some hardship at home and go all out on rebuilding and supporting the country you invade. There's been a war on for a few years now, and you'd never guess it if it wasn't reported in the news. Just looking around, nothing appears to have changed here at home. No shortages of anything but Playstations. There should have been a massive commitment and redistribution of US economic and industrial power put toward rebuilding and stabilizing that country, and it should have been felt here at home. News reports about the people killed is about all we see.

congratulations, you people that said we'd fail were right

It doesn't feel good, though, knowing Iraq is no better for the botched effort. *smug* has an awfully bitter taste to it

I totally agree.

maroule
08-12-2006, 09:26:05
Your kind made the world a very unsafe place for all of us. And all of us will have to pay for that immense fiasco, for a long time.

I hope it makes you happy.

We'll pick up the bill, the whole lot of us (anti and pro wars). The only cause of celebration, and that's a tiny one compared to the years of shit sandwich we'll have to eat (and that's nothing compared to people in the ME), is that history (with a great "H", and including the official US history) will judge your kind very harshly.

Chris
08-12-2006, 09:48:06
No maoule, it was YOUR kind, the appeasers who looked the other way at every terror attack, that tried to explain away religious fundementalist violence as somehow 'justifed' and kept dealing with any government if they had something you wanted that made the world less safe.

Mores the pity you refuse to understand that.

The USA was just as guilty as France in this, and Bush tried to change the pattern.

By NOT confronting them, by backing off, by accepting, you and people like you emboldened them over and over again.

You were correct on one item, Bush was not compitent to lead the effort, its absolutely true.

That doesn't invalidate what is essentially the only correct path.

I'm not worried about my place in history, it will be viewed the same as those who opposed the Hitlers in this world before they truely grew in strength.

I will find you under an aged Marshal petain and Nevelle Chamberlin, no pun intended.

Funko
08-12-2006, 09:50:01
I totally wish we'd been wrong and the whole thing hadn't been a disaster that's pissed off the islamic world more than it's ever been. To the level that it's incenced even some British Muslims enough that they are blowing themselves (and us) up now.

:(

Chris
08-12-2006, 09:52:38
It was coming Mikey, no matter what.

Remember, 9/11 was before Iraq, not after.

Sooner or later extreme fundementalism will have to be confronted.

Funko
08-12-2006, 09:59:45
Maybe, we've always been a top Al Qaeda target, but I think it'd have been much less likely to come from British Muslims.

The Iraq war (and to a lesser extent Afghanistan) is the thing that's really has caused huge tensions here amongst British Muslims. It's a huge thing for some of them. They see it as a completely unjustified attack, and they see it as an anti-Islamic war. As the WMD and Al Qaeda excuses for war have been proven false it's giving more ammunition to that view. I'm not saying they are right, they aren't, but it's a huge issue for them.

If the rational for the war had always been "Saddam is a bad man and needs to go" then maybe it'd be different. But no matter how bad life is for the citizens you can't just invade a country to effect regime change because you don't like the way a country is run.

Funko
08-12-2006, 10:02:15
Anti-Terrorism is, has and always will be a national security issue. And you can do your best but in a relatively free society there's no way to guarantee you stop every attack. That's an unfortunate fact of life. Doesn't help the victims or their friends or families, but invading Iraq isn't and was never going to make that better.

Chris
08-12-2006, 10:09:17
That is true Mikey, but if it wasn't Iraq or Afghanistan it would be something else.

Haven't you noticed the reasons for 'rage' are ever changing and always irrational?

France has no-go zones for its own police force for god sakes.

Half the middle east wants to slaughter people from Denmark over a few cartoons.

A boorish movie maker was murdered because he made a film an extremist didn't like.

This is not isloated, and its growing.

After the US is defeated in Iraq, do you think things will be calmer or will they become more violent?

What about all those people that believed in us, I guess its just too bad for them.

Funko
08-12-2006, 10:15:49
I think when the we leave things will be much worse in the region. As bad as the Iraq regime was it was a strong stabilising presence.

As MDA said, I think now we've fucked things up this badly, we should stay and finish the job properly, and he's right that that probably means more hardship for us to get that done.

Our political leaders know their voters probably can't/won't stomach that though, so we're going to compound the errors we've already made by leaving a weak war torn Iraq at the heart of an already instable region.

Nills Lagerbaak
08-12-2006, 10:17:06
The reasons for rage and frusatrations are almost always born from unfairness and inequality. The USAs foreign policy of unfairness and self-interest since the second world war has been the cause for support to organisations like Al Quaeda etc. Why are people surprised when someone decides enough is enough?? That is why we in the west have been a taget beorfe Iraq, do yo think it was all sweetness and roses from us before that?

What you also don't understand is that you can't make up for years of inequality and unfairness in the world by bombing another country even if that may be where some of these people may get some support?! The belief that this is possible absolutely baffles me.

maroule
08-12-2006, 10:21:35
If it was serious about the "islamic rage", the US would have sorted the Palestinan situation, by enforcing the policy it officially supports (and stop pretending to believe Israel can be destroyed by a rag tag militia when it has the best army in the region)

Instead the US destroyed a secular state, which had no link with AQ, and made it the most wonderful training ground, cause célèbre, and mediatic victory for the very people it claims to fight. From a secular dictatorship to a Shia theocracy, let's say it's a very efficient way to deal with muslim fanatics

As a reminder, bombs in the Paris tube, set off by Muslim fanatics, happened in the late 80s'... that's when the US was busy training Bin Laden, and helping Pakistan (and the UK were busy protecting Rachid Ramdane a suspected French bomber they didn't want to extradite back to France). France has been fighting muslim fanatics for some time now, we just don't go around bombing Egypt or Saudi Arabia (both dictatorships) in the hope of making it better

funny how history is rewritten....

Funko
08-12-2006, 10:25:25
This is where I totally disagree with you Nik.

There are plenty of poor countries and people in the world who aren't creating terrorist organisations and every country's foriegn policy is based on self-interest. Bin Laden and other Al Qaeda leaders are middle class/rich saudis not peasants. It's an idealogical/religious war. Truly poor people are too busy trying to survive to start terror organisations. They'd rather buy a goat than an AK.

And as to the selfish foriegn policy, one of the major problems the islamic extremists have with the US is it's support of Israel, and really other than it being a massive vote loser if the US stopped supporting Israel, it is actually a foriegn policy that doesn't really buy the US very much, and costs them a lot of money and negative relations with other countries that they could probably do without.

I actually agree with Chris that that kind of thinking is misguided and unhelpful. And it doesn't matter how pissed off you are with a country's policy, terror attacks are still totally wrong.

Chris
08-12-2006, 10:26:14
Originally posted by Funko
I think when the we leave things will be much worse in the region. As bad as the Iraq regime was it was a strong stabilising presence.

As MDA said, I think now we've fucked things up this badly, we should stay and finish the job properly, and he's right that that probably means more hardship for us to get that done.

Our political leaders know their voters probably can't/won't stomach that though, so we're going to compound the errors we've already made by leaving a weak war torn Iraq at the heart of an already instable region. Mikey, I'm forced to point this out over and over again, 'stable; simply means a totalitarian police state is controling what you hear from within its borders, so you don't have to read on the net or see in the papers the barbarity that goes on.

'Stability' is probaly the worst thing you can do to people, tell them that its ok they suffer as long as we don't have to hear about it.

Nills Lagerbaak
08-12-2006, 10:29:08
Originally posted by Funko
This is where I totally disagree with you Nik.

There are plenty of poor countries and people in the world who aren't creating terrorist organisations and every country's foriegn policy is based on self-interest. Bin Laden and other Al Qaeda leaders are middle class/rich saudis not peasants. It's an idealogical/religious war. Truly poor people are too busy trying to survive to start terror organisations. They'd rather buy a goat than an AK.

And as to the selfish foriegn policy, one of the major problems the islamic extremists have with the US is it's support of Israel, and really other than it being a massive vote loser if the US stopped supporting Israel, it is actually a foriegn policy that doesn't really buy the US very much, and costs them a lot of money and negative relations with other countries that they could probably do without.

I actually agree with Chris that that kind of thinking is misguided and unhelpful. And it doesn't matter how pissed off you are with a country's policy, terror attacks are still totally wrong.


Well, that would be true if it weren't for the fact that US foreign policy is heavily influenced by many
members of a certain extremist movement....but we won't go into that here.

Funko
08-12-2006, 10:31:31
There are plenty of cruel dictatorships in the world. Even with the greatest military might in the world, it's not possible for us to solve all those problems by invading the countries. Especially in a country with the factions and history of Iraq. Did we learn nothing from what happened when Yugoslavia broke up after years under a strong dictatorship?

Chris
08-12-2006, 10:32:02
Originally posted by maroule
If it was serious about the "islamic rage", the US would have sorted the Palestinan situation, by enforcing the policy it officially supports (and stop pretending to believe Israel can be destroyed by a rag tag militia when it has the best army in the region)

Instead the US destroyed a secular state, which had no link with AQ, and made it the most wonderful training ground, cause célèbre, and mediatic victory for the very people it claims to fight. From a secular dictatorship to a Shia theocracy, let's say it's a very efficient way to deal with muslim fanatics

As a reminder, bombs in the Paris tube, set off by Muslim fanatics, happened in the late 80s'... that's when the US was busy training Bin Laden, and helping Pakistan (and the UK were busy protecting Rachid Ramdane a suspected French bomber they didn't want to extradite back to France). France has been fighting muslim fanatics for some time now, we just don't go around bombing Egypt or Saudi Arabia (both dictatorships) in the hope of making it better

funny how history is rewritten.... And France had teh Ayatollah within its border and sold Saddam jets to kill Iranians and so on...

Nobody gets away on this Maroule, Saddam was not 'secular' he was an Arab Nationalist, that doesn't cut him off from being a Sunni, nor was Iraq free of terrorists and terrorism, as Saddam happily provided things like medical facilities to Bin Laden's forces retreating from Afghanistan and funding groups like Ansar al Islam, why playing pay the suicide bomber.

I will never understand why any of you think any Muslim leader is 'secular' they all follow their faith to a point, in Saddam's case he would not let that faith be taken by Imams, that doesn't mean he did not and does not invoke Allah five times a day like all the other Sunnis.

It is funny how you try to rewrite history.

Funko
08-12-2006, 10:32:54
Originally posted by Nills Lagerbaak
Well, that would be true if it weren't for the fact that US foreign policy is heavily influenced by many
members of a certain extremist movement....but we won't go into that here.

Wait, let me get my aluminium hat first...

Nills Lagerbaak
08-12-2006, 10:35:54
:D

maroule
08-12-2006, 10:36:40
at least we're getting to the end of it: arab leaders invoke Allah five times a day... that says it all

This is a clash of civilisation, it's us against them, time for a good crusade... and if you don't agree, you're Petain and Chamberlain...

Chris
08-12-2006, 10:37:47
Originally posted by Funko


I actually agree with Chris that that kind of thinking is misguided and unhelpful. And it doesn't matter how pissed off you are with a country's policy, terror attacks are still totally wrong. There is another componet here Mikey, the Israel/palestine thing has become a catchall of blame for any and all violent action.

And it just goes on and on, I myself would like to see the USA end any formal alliance with israel, simply because its become an excuse for all kinds of murder and mayhem.

No nation on earth puts more of a squeeze more effectivly on Israel then the USA does.

When israel was a French/British ally there were no calls for two state solutions nor any imperitive to end the 'plight' of the Palestinains.

As you mentioned, terrorism is a game of the idle rich and well educated, not the poor farm boys.

Chris
08-12-2006, 10:40:46
Originally posted by maroule
at least we're getting to the end of it: arab leaders invoke Allah five times a day... that says it all

This is a clash of civilisation, it's us against them, time for a good crusade... and if you don't agree, you're Petain and Chamberlain... You naieve to think Islamic extremism has anything to do with 'policy' of nations like yours or mine.

Their own governments oppress them far more then you or I could at our Imperial best.

How do you feel now that Jews are affraid in your country, the nation with a motto of Liberty, equality, fraternity?

You think that's because France's foreign policy?

maroule
08-12-2006, 10:42:06
when was Israel a French ally?
we're taking sticks for being "pro-arab", I remind you, and we were in Syria/Lebanon... the Balfour declaration is a pure British mess...

Chris
08-12-2006, 10:43:22
Originally posted by Funko
There are plenty of cruel dictatorships in the world. Even with the greatest military might in the world, it's not possible for us to solve all those problems by invading the countries. Especially in a country with the factions and history of Iraq. Did we learn nothing from what happened when Yugoslavia broke up after years under a strong dictatorship? Balkanization Mikey.

And what causes the rift in the former Yugoslavia?

What was the reason the Serbs were so violent?

Do you remember?

maroule
08-12-2006, 10:45:44
Originally posted by Chris

How do you feel now that Jews are affraid in your country, the nation with a motto of Liberty, equality, fraternity?

You think that's because France's foreign policy?

feeww, I thought for a moment we were pro-israel, now we're back on being anti-semitic, what a relief...

there are 500.000 jews in France, about 2.000 emigrate to Israel every year

Fox News and Saron duly said : "it's a mass exodus"... and now we can talk of the prevalent ffear

Chris
08-12-2006, 10:47:06
Originally posted by maroule
when was Israel a French ally?
we're taking sticks for being "pro-arab", I remind you, and we were in Syria/Lebanon... the Balfour declaration is a pure British mess... You don't know your own nation's history?

You were allied with Israel in the 1956 war, and your nation gave and sold arms to israel from its begining to the 1967 war.

Many Israeli Armored brigades in both 56 and 67 used AMX 13 tanks and the IDF fley Mystere and later Mirage fighters.

http://www.chars-francais.net/images/archives/amx13_ss11/-amx13_ss11_018.jpg

Chris
08-12-2006, 10:48:46
Originally posted by maroule
feeww, I thought for a moment we were pro-israel, now we're back on being anti-semitic, what a relief...

there are 500.000 jews in France, about 2.000 emigrate to Israel every year

Fox News and Saron duly said : "it's a mass exodus"... and now we can talk of the prevalent ffear I notice this is a common tactic you use whenever you don't like to face things, you either bring up FOX news or FFZ.

Can you not face fact without attempts at emotional defelction, or are you so weak in your convictions you have to forever fall back on such tripe?

You wanted to talk about this, at least try to face the world honestly.

Chris
08-12-2006, 10:49:10
Damnit, went to edit and quoted myself.

Funko
08-12-2006, 10:53:59
Originally posted by Chris
[B]Many Israeli Armored brigades in both 56 and 67 used AMX 13 tanks and the IDF fley Mystere and later Mirage fighters.

If the French sold the Israelis French tanks, then they are definitely helping the Arabs.

Chris
08-12-2006, 10:57:32
Originally posted by Funko
If the French sold the Israelis French tanks, then they are definitely helping the Arabs. Well, the balance was the Brits sold the Arabs British tanks, like the Archer, so retarded you have to be backwards to shoot from it.

http://www.miniatures.de/img/vehicles/milicast-UK24-archer-spg.jpg

Funko
08-12-2006, 10:59:21
Who cares about foriegners killing themselves if we can make money for our arms industries?

maroule
08-12-2006, 10:59:23
:lol:

in 56 they were allied to us, as we foolishly decided to intervene in an arab country out of pure greed (reminds you of something?)

Then we had an arm embargo against Israel, and De Gaulle later called them "an arrogant and dominating nation"

anyway, Israel is a friend, not an ennemy, and the job is to make them understand that as long as they ignore the plight of the Palestinians, they'll never have peace...


I bring up Fox because it is the voice of the right wing establishment, and the main channel of propaganda. What other sources should I use, quotes from internet nerds?

Funko
08-12-2006, 11:00:55
I always think it's good to respond to what a poster actually says, rather than responding to a generalisation about what you think they might believe based on other sources.

Chris
08-12-2006, 11:03:08
You could try being honest, but i won't hold my breath, you want and expect me to get upset with you, well I'm sorry maroule, that isn't happening anymore.

In those days I had just lived through a terror attack that had killed people I knew and worked with, and it was raw.

Now I'm back to the way I was on ACOL and before, and I simply laugh at your feeble little attempts to 'ignite' people.

You were such a jerk walrus gave up on this place, and so did a lot of other folks, you won't get absolution for what you did in the past.

But you can at least try to face the world honestly, but I doubt it.

What I expect is another piddling 'FOX NEWS' or FFZ swipe.

Chris
08-12-2006, 11:04:52
Originally posted by Funko
I always think it's good to respond to what a poster actually says, rather than responding to a generalisation about what you think they might believe based on other sources. Its what he's always done Mikey, its no big deal.

I see it as a white flag, you at least talk about what you feel, he comes up with 'FOX news.'

:gasmaske:

MattHiggs
08-12-2006, 11:15:12
jerk walrus gave up on this place

Every cloud has a silver lining.

maroule
08-12-2006, 11:32:57
Originally posted by Funko
I always think it's good to respond to what a poster actually says, rather than responding to a generalisation about what you think they might believe based on other sources.

?? first of all, so far I have tried to answer specific points, secondly I said it at the beginning
"I was less talking of the CG population than all these political/media commentators who called people traitors and ingrates for pointing out the likely consequence of the invasion."


this is the problem of these discussions, and we all end up like poo throwing monkeys. I'm not hopeful in the possibility of having a proper debate with Chris; years here have proven it is impossible. This is too time consuming to make sense of the flying questions and absurd shortcuts (because when you answer them, another volley comes, without any relation to the previous one), and let's face it, Chris doesn't make the US foreign policy, or the media agenda. He's just swallowing and spitting it (I believe the word is "snowballing").

I do have a lot of resentment for Bill O'Reilly, Fox and the rest, and that's what this thread was about. I'm more interested about the big picture, and not in proving to Chris or anybody else that we are not in a clash of civilisation, Islam is not the enemy, Saddam was not Hitler, we had other choices but invading Iraq, etc. If you don't see that for yourself, it's not an internet discussion on an obscure site that will change your perception.

Chris
08-12-2006, 11:41:16
I never said Islam was the enemy Maoule, there you go again.

EXTREMISTS are however the enemy, and there are a LOT of them.

And until you face that unpleasant little fact you will cling to the old staples of the days of the Kremlin about how Yankee Imperialism causes all the world problems.

Stop being a dinosaur dude, being stratified is death, so is constantly telling everybody they listen to 'propaganda' when they say things you don't want to deal with.

'FOX NEWS' didn't riot in Paris last summer nor kill Theo Van Gogh, extremists did.

Get serious.

maroule
08-12-2006, 12:02:59
Islamists didn't riot in Paris last summer. Believe me, there were not islamist, not even slightly believing in Islam. By the way, the number of death during the "riots" and "France in flames": 0.

that's my exact point; there is no way you would believe that if you weren't buying Faux news arguments.

As for Yankee Imperialism, I was fine with it in the Clinton years, and will be fine with it again once the right wing extremist are truly ousted from the government. What a relief it will be to see the Democrats back in.

Chris
08-12-2006, 12:07:45
You can spin all you like, but I was watching the BBC, and those 'youths' were indeed ALL Muslims, not chinese or koreans.

This is what I mean about you, you refuse to face what is right in front of you, its always off to more spin.

As for US left/right, there is little difference between the two US parties once they are in office, but if it makes you feel better good for you.

mr_G
08-12-2006, 12:17:20
aren't you both a little hardheaded?
calling news propaganda is not something new is it. Your state of mind and your opinion is not unique, it's feeded by your environment and all the news you can get.

maroule
08-12-2006, 12:17:46
"You can spin all you like, but I was watching the BBC, and those 'youths' were indeed ALL Muslims, not chinese or koreans."

again, you are misunderstanding race and religion. Being "brown" doesn't mean you have a islamic agenda for rioting.

"As for US left/right, there is little difference between the two US parties once they are in office, but if it makes you feel better good for you."

Where have you been living for the last 6 years? The US has never been so divided and polarized politically since a century.


Anyway, that's boring. I have spent far too much time here this morning.

Funko
08-12-2006, 12:18:37
Originally posted by mr_G
aren't you both a little hardheaded?
calling news propaganda is not something new is it. Your state of mind and your opinion is not unique, it's feeded by your environment and all the news you can get.

:eek:

Intelligent post from Mr_G

mr_G
08-12-2006, 12:22:31
damn

Chris
08-12-2006, 12:24:51
Not really.

MOBIUS
08-12-2006, 12:26:13
What I find curiously interesting is how the Iraq Study Group has taken three years to recommend all the things that I said on Poly and here ages ago - maybe they read my posts...?

I obviously was utterly against the invasion because it was clearly a 'fit up' from the word go: everyone knew Saddam wasn't linked with Al Qaeda, everyone knew Saddam's WMDs were at worst stalled since 1991 and at best non-existent - everybody knew Washington and London were lying through their teeth to orchestrate an illegal war!

BUT. When we did invade I hoped it would be a quick victory and that we would succeed in rescuing the Iraqi people from a cruel and ruthless dictator (who was also allied to the US and UK during some of his more merciless periods, if you could be a little less selective with your facts Chris!)... In fact I posted on Poly that the US needed VASTLY more troops for the aftermath and the 'peace'.

Imagine my outraged horror when in the first days of the fall of Saddam's regime, US forces rushed to protect the Oil Ministry, ignored the hospitals and museums - essentially let anarchy prevail! Yep, we got a real taste of what their priorities were then!

Then there's been disbanding the Iraq army (I argued against that), not defending the Iraqi army weapons dumps (I argued for that - the non-disbanded Iraqi army could have done that!!!), Letting companies like Halliburton literally waltz in and rape the country of money and resources - when the Iraq people and companies could have been put to work!

Meddling with the 'democracy' to effectively hog-tie the three major factions so that they can all bar each other's efforts because of the real and definite US fear of an Iranian backed Shia govt - if you champion democracy, you have to accept it when the people choose to do something you don't want them to do! Otherwise it is not democracy, but then the US doesn't actually give a flying shit about democracy anyway and the Iraqis know it!

The list of fuck ups in Iraq principally by the US is truly stupendous - borne out of extreme arrogance and the blatant disregard for the lives of the people they claim to have 'saved'!

Now we're there we have to FINISH THE JOB! That means MORE, not less soldiers, diplomacy with Syria and Iran and a concerted exit strategy.

Also, due to the extreme mismanagement we might even have to consider the break up of the country...

The only 'satisfaction' in this mess I find - is that after being variously called a traitor/pussy/appeaser and all the other nasty names we were called when we were arguing against the war, I can throw it back in their faces!

The biggest casualty in this entire mess is Afghanistan: Imagine how that country would be now if we'd poured all the resources into it that we did into Iraq!!!???

Talk about opportunity lost!

Chris
08-12-2006, 12:29:11
Originally posted by maroule

again, you are misunderstanding race and religion. Being "brown" doesn't mean you have a islamic agenda for rioting. Nor did i say that, it seems you just invented my postion.

I'm well aware of what went on, many of them feel ol France is treating them like second class citizens and they feel alienated, and yes, I know why it started, one teen was killed acidently, electrocuted if I remember right, that started the riots.


Where have you been living for the last 6 years? The US has never been so divided and polarized politically since a century.This shows how little you understand US politics, its always been this way.

There was no love fest for Bill Clinton by the opposition party, and if you think Europe loved him, his popularity hovered in the low 30s in 1999.


Anyway, that's boring. I have spent far too much time here this morning. We can always list the sensible mr_G posts:

.
.

Done.

mr_G
08-12-2006, 12:35:53
jesjes

time to doooooooooooooooooooooooooo di doooooooooooooooooooooooo this thread

Dyl Ulenspiegel
08-12-2006, 14:50:29
Originally posted by MDA
If you're going to invade another country with the intent of removing bad people from power and making that country a better place for everyone to live in, you'd better be prepared to undergo some hardship at home and go all out on rebuilding and supporting the country you invade.

Ok, yes.... just... do you really think that was the point of the whole thing?

Demonstration of power, using war for internal politics, looting Iraq for the US oligarchy, strategic control of the middle east, a happy puppet regime im Baghdad, ok... but fairytale good-of-heartness?

The more interesting thing is that even for the ugly motives, this whole exercise has been executed in a breathtakingly incompetent manner.