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Chris
27-11-2006, 14:06:11
Britain wants UK break up, poll shows
By Patrick Hennessy and Melissa Kite, Sunday Telegraph
Last Updated: 1:29am GMT 27/11/2006



The United Kingdom should be broken up and Scotland and England set free as independent nations, according to a huge number of voters on both sides of the border.


A clear majority of people in both England and Scotland are in favour of full independence for Scotland, an ICM opinion poll for The Sunday Telegraph has found. Independence is backed by 52 per cent of Scots while an astonishing 59 per cent of English voters want Scotland to go it alone.

There is also further evidence of rising English nationalism with support for the establishment of an English parliament hitting an historic high of 68 per cent amongst English voters. Almost half – 48 per cent – also want complete independence for England, divorcing itself from Wales and Northern Ireland as well. Scottish voters also back an English breakaway with 58 per cent supporting an English parliament with similar powers to the Scottish one.

The poll comes only months before the 300th anniversary of the Act of Union between England and Scotland and will worry all three main political parties. None of them favours Scottish independence, but all have begun internal debates on the future of the constitution.

The dramatic findings came as Gordon Brown, the favourite to succeed Tony Blair as Prime Minister, delivered an impassioned defence of the Union at Labour's Scottish conference in Oban yesterday.

In an attack on the Scottish National Party, against whom Labour will fight a bitter battle for control of the Edinburgh-based parliament next May, the Chancellor claimed: "We should never let the Nationalists deceive people into believing that you can break up the United Kingdom."

The ICM poll told a very different story, however, with 60 per cent of English voters complaining that higher levels of public spending per head of the population in Scotland were "unjustified", compared to 28 per cent claiming they were justified. Even among Scots, 36 per cent said the system was unfair, with only 51 per cent supporting it.

Voters also had serious concerns about the so-called West Lothian Question, the ability of Scottish MPs at Westminster to vote on solely English matters while many purely Scottish issues are decided in Edinburgh. Sixty-two per cent of English voters want Scottish MPs stripped of this right and even 46 per cent of Scots agreed. The poll showed that the English are more likely to think of themselves as British than the Scots are. Only 16 per cent of English people said they were "English, not British", compared to 26 per cent of Scots who said they were "Scottish, not British."

In the sporting arena, 70 per cent of English people said they would support a Scottish team playing football or rugby against a nation other than England. But, when the question was put to Scots, only 48 per cent said they would back England with 34 per cent supporting their opponents, no matter which country it was.

There was good news for David Cameron, the Conservative leader, when voters in England were asked who they would back in a general election held tomorrow. The Tories were on 37 per cent, with 31 per cent backing Labour and 23 per cent supporting the Liberal Democrats.


David Cameron: 'The union is good for us all'


Mr Brown said: "There is a debate to be had about the future of the United Kingdom. But I think when you look at the arguments — at the family ties, the economic connections, the shared values, the history of our relationship which has lasted 300 years — people will decide we are stronger together and weaker apart."

Mr Cameron said: "The union between England, Scotland and Wales is good for us all and we are stronger together than we are apart. The last thing we need is yet another parliament with separate elections and more politicians spending more money."

Sir Menzies Campbell, the Lib Dem leader, called for a "calm rational debate" on the role of MPs from Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales at Westminster. "The last thing we need is knee-jerk opportunistic political responses."

Alex Salmond, the SNP leader, said: "In England, people quite rightly resent Scottish Labour MPs bossing them about on English domestic legislation. England has as much right to self government as Scotland does."

Anything to this, or is it bullshit?

Funko
27-11-2006, 14:13:18
When you go to Scotland it's surprising that you can notice how much poorer it is. (at least than the South of England...).

A devolved parliment for England isn't the world's worst idea, but I'm not sure it's necessary.

Chris
27-11-2006, 14:17:35
It appears they don't like Wales either.

Funko
27-11-2006, 14:28:19
They?

mr_G
27-11-2006, 14:28:52
WILLIAM WALLACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

mr_G
27-11-2006, 14:29:33
maybe it's taaim if we the dutch will set those belgiumers free also.

Resource Consumer
27-11-2006, 14:43:46
Why can't we have independence for England and get rid of all the hangers on? :)

King_Ghidra
27-11-2006, 14:44:21
At a guess, I imagine Scotland, NI and Wales gain more from the Union than England does. That said, it doesn't follow that England would benefit from breaking the union up.

The stuff in there about sporting allegiances, feeling british etc is a crock of shit anyway. A government or country is basically a question of geographical, economic, social and linguistic convenience, not a bunch of people who have to all love each other and have wonderful patriotic feelings.

In terms of the devolved parliaments, i think there are some compelling arguments about a devolved english assembly that votes on purely domestic issue. But fundamentally as long as the union exists you will need a parliament that makes the kind of decisions that affect all of the citizens of the union.

*End Is Forever*
27-11-2006, 16:30:51
Sounds like they made their mind up what the story should be, and then commissioned a survey to get the answers they wanted.

Let's be honest, they basically asked "do you agree that more taxpayers money gets spent on someone else?". Is anyone really surprised at the result?

You could repeat the question and ask about any number of comparatively deprived boroughs in England and you would get the same result - but no-one is asking for independence for Hull or Tower Hamlets.

King_Ghidra
27-11-2006, 16:47:40
We want Independence for Tower Hamlets!

mr_G
27-11-2006, 16:50:04
and free porn !!!!

Tizzy
27-11-2006, 17:13:56
But we'll settle for the porn

Dyl Ulenspiegel
27-11-2006, 17:17:08
We've been trying to get rid of Carinthia for ages. Anyone want it?

Frozen Frog
27-11-2006, 17:58:13
Vive le Québec libre!!!

Frozen Frog
27-11-2006, 17:58:35
what?

notyoueither
28-11-2006, 05:32:57
Vive le Cree libre!!!

Chris
28-11-2006, 20:41:38
Its amazing, the bots don't even read the threads they post in.

C.G.B. Spender
28-11-2006, 22:38:27
So do I

Oerdin
28-11-2006, 23:33:00
Originally posted by Funko
When you go to Scotland it's surprising that you can notice how much poorer it is. (at least than the South of England...).

A devolved parliment for England isn't the world's worst idea, but I'm not sure it's necessary.

The current set up is pretty dumb though. Everyone but England gets its own local parlement which no one else gets a say in but the "English" parlement is also the UK Parlement which everyone gets a say in. If you're going to move to a federal system then do it properly. Give each state/kingdom/duchy it's own regional parlement with strictly described powers and then have one national parlement which everyone gets a voice in which also has strictly described powers and is superior to the regional ones.

SuperCitizen
29-11-2006, 06:59:19
I can rape you daimos, do you know what a piledriver is in terms of homorape? Prepare yourself, it will be painful.

mr_G
29-11-2006, 09:07:40
that's what you said to all those 3 woman you could have had hah

Funko
29-11-2006, 09:35:29
:lol:

Chris
29-11-2006, 10:23:08
He can homorape women?

King_Ghidra
29-11-2006, 10:23:54
he just pictures a man while he's doing it

Chris
29-11-2006, 10:26:40
Don't we all?

MOBIUS
29-11-2006, 10:32:18
I picture Chuck Norris!

Chris
29-11-2006, 10:34:16
See?

mr_G
29-11-2006, 10:46:04
i see i see what you don't see
and it is..................................

Dyl Ulenspiegel
29-11-2006, 11:50:13
Originally posted by Oerdin
Everyone but England gets its own local parlement which no one else gets a say in but the "English" parlement is also the UK Parlement which everyone gets a say in.

Now imagine a country where every entity directly under the federal level has its parliament, just one of them does not get a say in the federal parliament. Bloody weirdos!

Funko
29-11-2006, 12:03:31
An additional parliament will (obviously) cost money to run/upkeep. Which is why I say:

"A devolved parliament for England isn't the world's worst idea, but I'm not sure it's necessary."

MOBIUS
29-11-2006, 12:11:07
Wow, that sounds like a campaign slogan for inactivity...

MOBIUS
29-11-2006, 12:12:14
I agree BTW, that way the rest of us can keep on bleeding England dry in return for centuries of misrule.

Funko
29-11-2006, 12:13:48
You did that before you had devolved parliaments. You'd be even poorer without our cash.

Fistandantilus
29-11-2006, 12:44:09
It's time to move the capital to Cardiff and make the UK become Greater Galles.

MOBIUS
29-11-2006, 13:43:11
I'd be up for that!:beer:

Dyl Ulenspiegel
29-11-2006, 14:00:09
Originally posted by Funko
An additional parliament will (obviously) cost money to run/upkeep.


Unless you go for a full federal system, there's another option: The functions of the devolved english parliament could be exercised by the english members of Parliament. No seperate election that way, but cheaper.

Funko
29-11-2006, 14:07:49
That's way too sensible.

Funko
29-11-2006, 14:08:55
Main problem with an English Parliament is that the Tories would totally pwn it.

Chris
29-11-2006, 14:11:12
This thread has become far too Darkstarish.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
29-11-2006, 14:11:34
Until the rise of the Essex National Party.

Funko
29-11-2006, 14:12:05
Did you say sex party?

Chris
29-11-2006, 14:16:03
Somebody should say that.

mr_G
29-11-2006, 14:16:21
hehehehehehehe jesjes he did and natioanal toooo