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Lurker the Second
22-08-2006, 15:30:40
I have what I think is an old German adoption paper that I need translated. My copy is not great and the font is a bit unusual, so I might get some of the letters wrong (and can't make umlauts), but here is the gist of it:

Ausfertigung
Fam. Reg. VII 359/1947 Memmingen, den 22Juli 1947

I. Be[s?]chluk:

Das Mundel [name omitted] geb. am 22.1.1943 in Tellinn, Estland hat durch die am 5. April 1947 vor dem Standesamte in Memmingerberg erfolgte Che[s?]chliekung des [R][K]indsvaters [name omitted] geb. am 15. Juli 1922 in Tellinn, Estland
katholi[s?]ch -- evangeli[s?]ch --
wohnhaft in Memmingerberg, Fliegerhorst mit der [R][K]indsmutter [name omitted], gesch. [name omitted]
die rechtliche Stellung eines ehelichen [R][K]ind___erlangt. Die Bei[s?]chreibung am [R][K]ande der [G?]eburts urkunde wird angeordnet.

[Section symbol] I. [U]usf. Berordnung zum B. [G?]t. [?]. R[?]BI. I 533/38

Amtsgericht:

gez. Kaizik
Amtsrichter

Den [?]leichlaut mit der Ur[s?]chrift be[s?]tatigt.

Memmingen, den 22. Juli 1947
Der [?]efundsbeamte der Ge[s?]chafts[s?]telle des Amtsgerichts:

[signature]
Justiz-Angestellter


"katholisch" is x-ed out so it's fairly obvious what that means. Same with the dates.

Help is much appreciated.

Venom
22-08-2006, 15:34:01
You were adopted from a German concentration camp?

Venom
22-08-2006, 15:35:25
Nah, that can't be it, you're too old.

Adopted from a German town after World War I?

Lurker the Second
22-08-2006, 15:36:07
I thought everyone was, no?

mr_G
22-08-2006, 15:37:20
I'm not that old

mr_G
22-08-2006, 15:37:42
and i cannot concentrate that well

MoSe
22-08-2006, 15:48:36
Rindsmutter und Rindsvater!

MOOOOO!
:lol:

C.G.B. Spender
22-08-2006, 15:50:49
Ausfertigung
Fam. Reg. VII 359/1947 Memmingen, den 22Juli 1947

I. Beschluß:

Das Mündel [name omitted] geb. am 22.1.1943 in Tallinn, Estland hat durch die am 5. April 1947 vor dem Standesamte in Memmingerberg erfolgte Eheschließung des Kindsvaters [name omitted] geb. am 15. Juli 1922 in Tallinn, Estland
katholisch -- evangelisch --
wohnhaft in Memmingerberg, Fliegerhorst mit der Kindsmutter [name omitted], gesch. [name omitted]
die rechtliche Stellung eines ehelichen Kindes erlangt. Die Beischreibung am Rande der Geburtsurkunde wird angeordnet.

[Section symbol] I. [U]usf. Berordnung zum B. [G?]t. [?]. R[?]BI. I 533/38 (dunno, legal mumbo jumbo)

Amtsgericht:

gez. Kaizik
Amtsrichter

Den Gleichlaut mit der Urschrift bestätigt.

Memmingen, den 22. Juli 1947
Der Urkundsbeamte der Geschäftsstelle des Amtsgerichts:

[signature]
Justiz-Angestellte


Don't expect me to translate it!

Funko
22-08-2006, 15:52:22
Engrossment

I Resolutions

The Ward [name omitted] born on 22.1.1943 in Tellinn, Estland has through the matrimony that took place on 5. April 1947 before the registery office in Memmingberk (Eheschließung not Che[s?]chliekung) (of) the childrens fathers [name omitted], born on 15 Juli 1922 in Tellinn, Estland, catholic evangalists -- resident in Memmingerberg, airbase with the childrens mother [name ommitted] attained children through the legal situation of a marriage. The discription of children birth documents were ordered/arranged.

The last bit is dates and times and says it's the signed by the Kaisik office judge in Memmingen 22nd July 1945 and tells who signed it.

A proper german speaker could do better but basically yes, an adoption through marriage of the child's parents by the look of it?

Drekkus
22-08-2006, 15:53:42
Hehehehehe, he said memmen!!

Lurker the Second
22-08-2006, 15:54:11
:lol: that's a start, though. :beer:

C.G.B. Spender
22-08-2006, 15:55:02
And you're either catholic or protestant

Drekkus
22-08-2006, 15:56:11
Probably a tick box.

Lurker the Second
22-08-2006, 15:57:05
I was laughing at CGB, but thanks Funko.

C.G.B. Spender
22-08-2006, 15:57:26
I am the Flieger Horst

Funko
22-08-2006, 15:57:44
The stupid German sentence order is confusing. And this has the dual complication of being legal german!

Lurker the Second
22-08-2006, 15:57:59
Originally posted by C.G.B. Spender
And you're either catholic or protestant

That actual form has a fill in the blank spot after the two choices, so I suppose Hindu is ok.

C.G.B. Spender
22-08-2006, 15:59:57
it says that a child with no name became a legal child with no name once the father with no name married the mother with no name (who is divorced and was married to another guy with no name).

And the whole thing is acopy of the document

Lurker the Second
22-08-2006, 16:06:19
I appreciate that, but I do really need a formal translation still.

As a legal matter, does becoming a "legal child" mean the same thing as a formal adoption under German law?

Drekkus
22-08-2006, 16:31:38
Originally posted by C.G.B. Spender
I am the Flieger Horst http://www.sporting-heroes.net/files_footballworldcup/HRUBESCH_H_19820711_GH_L.jpg

Dyl Ulenspiegel
22-08-2006, 16:54:20
official certificate

Family registry VII 359/1947 Memmingen, July 22nd 1947

I. Decision (note: less formal act than a judgment):

The ward (note: child under state or other care) NN born January 22nd 1943 in Tellinn, Estonia has been legitimised/become a legitimate child through the marriage on April 5th 1947 before the registrar between the father of the child NN born July 15th 1922 in Tellinn, Estonia (check: catholic - protestant), residing at airforce base Memmingerberg, with the mother of the child NN (divorced NN). This shall be entered in the margin of the birth certificate.

[Section symbol] I. [U]usf. Berordnung zum B. [G?]t. [?]. R[?]BI. I 533/38

District court:

signed Kaizik
District judge

Hereby confirmed that this certificate is identical to the original.

Memmingen, July 22nd 1947
The clerk at the District court's office

[signature]
Court official

Dyl Ulenspiegel
22-08-2006, 16:57:22
The quoted part refers to a section of a "Verordnung" (executive order/secondary legislation) to I assume the BGB (general civil code) found in RGBl (german official journal) part I nr 533 from 1938. That part is quite badly transcribed, however, so I'm not sure to what exactly it refers.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
22-08-2006, 16:57:48
dp

fp
22-08-2006, 17:03:51
Originally posted by Dyl Ulenspiegel
The quoted part refers to a section of a "Verordnung" (executive order/secondary legislation) to I assume the BGB (general civil code) found in RGBl (german official journal) part I nr 533 from 1938.

And people call Tizzy a nerd....

Dyl Ulenspiegel
22-08-2006, 17:05:33
hey, that's some simple legal stuff....

Dyl Ulenspiegel
22-08-2006, 17:09:12
Originally posted by Lurker the Second
I appreciate that, but I do really need a formal translation still.

As a legal matter, does becoming a "legal child" mean the same thing as a formal adoption under German law?

No, "eheliches Kind" just means child born in wedlock. A child born out of wedlock becomes "ehelich" when the parents get married. So the paper you have is not about adoption, as the child's physical parents got married.

Lurker the Second
22-08-2006, 17:56:50
Oh, wow, that is going to be some interesting news for my client. It is a bit bizarre. She always understood her father was not her natural father but that he had "adopted" her when he married her mother. The issue of "adoption" is significant right now b/c she is applying to be his guardian and the application may become contested.

This document is just one step shy of a birth certificate with her father's name on it and in an of itself is evidence that she was considered by the German government to be the natural child of her father. I hope to hell we don't have to track down the birth certificate.

Thanks for your help. Next few rounds are on me.

Lurker the Second
22-08-2006, 19:00:04
Does "gesch." always imply a divorce? Could it also possibly refer to the mother's maiden name? For example, "Helen Smith, nee Williams" refers to someone named Helen Smith whose maiden name was Helen Williams.

JM^3
22-08-2006, 19:04:09
Your actually going to beleive something you read on CG? And pass it off to a client?

JM

Lurker the Second
22-08-2006, 19:10:46
Retainer isn't big enough to take it to Poly and get the top notch help.

mr_G
22-08-2006, 19:17:56
:lol:

Dyl Ulenspiegel
22-08-2006, 19:51:02
Originally posted by Lurker the Second
Oh, wow, that is going to be some interesting news for my client. It is a bit bizarre. She always understood her father was not her natural father but that he had "adopted" her when he married her mother.

Well the man in that document is referred to as "Kindsvater", which means father of the child. In theory he could have become the father by adopting the child earlier on; might even become "ehelich" by the following marriage. But if you have nothing else to support the adoption theory - the document you transcribed does nothing to support it, and makes it even rather unlikely.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
22-08-2006, 19:52:07
Originally posted by Lurker the Second
Does "gesch." always imply a divorce? Could it also possibly refer to the mother's maiden name? For example, "Helen Smith, nee Williams" refers to someone named Helen Smith whose maiden name was Helen Williams.

That would be "geborene Wilhelmine". The only meaning for "gesch." that makes sense to me in that context is "geschieden" - divorced.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
22-08-2006, 19:53:21
Originally posted by Lurker the Second
Retainer isn't big enough to take it to Poly and get the top notch help.

At poly, there would be about a dozen people whose german and knowledge of the german legal system is much better than mine. :D

JM^3
22-08-2006, 20:00:31
And they would all say something else.

JM

Dyl Ulenspiegel
22-08-2006, 20:03:57
And that my translation is the result of my bias against [enter anything here].

JM^3
22-08-2006, 20:18:54
You haven't posted there recently enough for them to be that concerned about your bias against [enter anything here], they would be far more interested in discussing eachothers biases against [enter anything here].

JM

Lurker the Second
22-08-2006, 20:27:48
Originally posted by Dyl Ulenspiegel
Well the man in that document is referred to as "Kindsvater", which means father of the child. In theory he could have become the father by adopting the child earlier on; might even become "ehelich" by the following marriage. But if you have nothing else to support the adoption theory - the document you transcribed does nothing to support it, and makes it even rather unlikely.

Actually, the best evidence seems to be what is reflected in the documents. My client was obviously just a toddler when all this occurred so could hardly have appreciated anything that was going on at the time. She grew up and from her perspective her "father" was always just that -- her father. She knew her mother and "father" were not married when she was born, and whatever idle chatter she heard later in life that led her to believe she might not be the natural child of her father was not addressed. It is plausible that confusion arose from the very nature of what this document does -- lay people don't really distinguish between adoption and the process of legitimizing a child.

As for the divorce question, it is quite possible my client's mother was divorced before remarrying. I don't know and will have to ask her.

Again, this has been very helpful and I sincerely appreciate your input (uhm, Dyl, not Venom).

mr_G
22-08-2006, 21:03:41
Boringglow!!!!!!!

Dyl Ulenspiegel
22-08-2006, 21:15:36
Originally posted by Lurker the Second

Again, this has been very helpful and I sincerely appreciate your input (uhm, Dyl, not Venom).

Especially helpful when we can bore dutch architects to a slow and gruesome death. :D

Seriosly, no problem. Just seems strange to think you've been adopted when you are the natural child....

Vincent
22-08-2006, 21:53:55
I also was adopted by my parents. I'm the grand-grandson of the Tzar and Ernest Hemmingway

Oerdin
22-08-2006, 22:17:30
Originally posted by Lurker the Second

Thanks for your help. Next few rounds are on me.

Does that mean you're buying beer or that you will be spilling it on yourself? ;)

zmama
23-08-2006, 00:11:24
Originally posted by Vincent
I also was adopted by my parents. I'm the grand-grandson of the Tzar and Ernest Hemmingway

explains much *nods*

MoSe
23-08-2006, 09:12:05
the Bells toll for Rascalnikov

King_Ghidra
23-08-2006, 10:18:03
i'm really having a day of shame, i found this thread quite interesting

Drekkus
23-08-2006, 11:04:25
Originally posted by Vincent
I also was adopted by my parents. I'm the grand-grandson of the Tzar and Ernest Hemmingway So you're the old man near the sea?