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Havoc
18-07-2006, 21:49:07
Talking with several people, It seemed generally agreed upon that we would like to have 500mil isk before purchasing a POS. The station itself wouldn't cost 500mil but would give us enough isk to have a bit of insurance.

I know several of us can donate towards the POS, but this thread isn't a solicitation of isk. I really just want to know what kind of modules we would have on the POS and what benefits we would incur. If anyone knows a deal about this stuff please post.

JM^3
18-07-2006, 23:42:27
Things in game or coming
============
Sentry guns/launchers - Obvious
Tracking Array - Boosts Sentries
ECM Batteries - Obvious
Stealth Emitter Array - Decrease POS Signature
Warp Scrambling Batteries - Obvious
Stasis Webification Battery - Obvious
Shield hardening array - Obvious
Small Ship Assembly Array - T1 ships
Medium Ship Assembly Array - T1 Ships
Large Ship Assembly Array - T1 Ships
Advanced Small Ship Assembly Array - T2 ships
Advanced Medium Ship Assembly Array - T2 Ships
Advanced Large Ship Assembly Array - T2 Ships
Capital Ship Assembly Array - Obvious
Component Assembly Array - Makes Capital Components and T2 ones
Ammo Assemby Array
Drone Assembly Array
Efficient and Rapid Equipment Assembly Array - Produces Ship Modules faster or cheaper
Moon Mining - Harvests Moons
Mobile Reactor - Does simple and/or complex reactions
Refining
Silo and Coupling array - Stores stuff (like what you harvest from moons, or the reactions, or the refined product)

Jon Miller

Lurker the Second
19-07-2006, 00:38:58
good thread. We are not going to get a large POS with our corp at its current size, but that's hardly worrisome.

I would, however, like to stretch for a medium pos if possible, particularly if moon mining is in the cards.

I said a billion isk. There's a reason for that. I would like to have the isk to buy all the station modules we decide to fit, plus have enough isk to fund the strontium and other operational requirements for at least 6 weeks from the point of operation. I would also like to have a large amount of isk to fund corporate endeavors, particularly things that encourage newbies to come to 0.0 and not worry if they get blowed up. There are other things, but I'd rather play the game at the moment than keep typing.

Koyaanisqatsi
19-07-2006, 03:32:17
As one of the newbies who would be promptly blown up upon entering 0.0 space,...what sort of things?

JM^3
19-07-2006, 03:35:52
Low Sec isn't as dangerous as some carebears would have you believe.

JM

Havoc
19-07-2006, 05:09:12
So what things from JM's list would people be interested in having? I agree with Lurker that having a Moon to harvest could be cool, and I've heard that it is a good way to earn a return on the POS.

JM^3
19-07-2006, 05:54:20
I think that if we aren't in an alliance, and we fortified it, we would be asking for people to make a concerted effort to take it out.

I could be wrong there thuogh.

JM

Centara Fugue
19-07-2006, 06:38:05
Don't listen to him. He's a loon. He likes getting blowed up. (in response to not as dangerous as some carebears would have you believe)

Beta1
19-07-2006, 08:54:09
I think all thats really needed is a couple of moon mining arrays, silos, reactor, ideally a mobile lab and a defense system.

The key is to keep the shield running - with the shield up it would take a fleet of BS days to drop the shield, or a Dread a few hours.

If a Dread turns up its basically toast no matter how fortified it is.

I think the best way of keeping it safe is to keep it somewhere quiet and out of the way. it s avery big universe and unless your looking for a POS you rarely run into them.

I'm not sure a billion ISK is needed - even a medium POS wont come in at over 400m and the fuel isnt that expensive.

Either way I can easily donate 250mill to the cause if needed.

Beta1
19-07-2006, 09:01:26
just for information CKU income for the last week was a shade over 12 million ISK

Havoc
19-07-2006, 12:43:35
Is that income just from taxes? Or everyone's combined income from missions?

Lurker the Second
19-07-2006, 13:29:49
just taxes. That's not enough to maintain a medium POS every week, or if it is enough it is barely enough. We could supplement with some weekly mining ops, plus hopefully decent income from the moon mining.

Havoc
19-07-2006, 13:45:52
Is there anyway to transition from a small to a medium as we grow? Or do you either have a small station or a medium station.

Also are POS modules like implants, in that you can't sell them after they are used, or can you repackage and sell them?

Mraal
19-07-2006, 13:58:54
We should probably start with a small POS. That will probably only need to have the moon harvest array, silo, and some defenses. No need for a reactor array until/unless we can manage to get two moon products that can form a reaction, and if that's the case we'll need to do a medium POS instead of a small (or two smalls if the products are on two different moons). I agree that the best way to keep it safe is to keep it secret and out of the way. On that note, unless anyone has pals with moon survey data, we'll have to survey ourselves - I may start doing that in about a week with a cloaked iteron.
Estimated fuel costs for a small POS are apparently 12 mil per week if purchased on the market (according to some of the forum POS guides). Note that without a moon harvesting array or access to moon products, we don't really have any way of making a profit with a POS.
We can put down a POS and dismantle it later. Likewise we can install a small POS, dismantle it, and upgrade its tower to a medium while reusing the modules.

Nav
19-07-2006, 15:07:38
Donations would definately help, however would be happier to see them as loans. Or we could each invest the same amount (say 100m each or less depending on final reqs), so that the onus (and risk) isn't on one person.

I'm just over a week away from being able to pilot the top of the range mining barge, if we ever need to do any larger scale mining to reduce fuel/material costs. Plus I might go down the ice refining route if that's of any use.

Beta1
19-07-2006, 15:41:42
Re upgrading the station: you can de-anchor any part of a POS and replace it, even move the whole lot somewhere else if you want.

As for corp income - if the POS is set up right it should pay for itself. if it doesnt there really isnt any point to running it.

Lurker the Second
19-07-2006, 15:52:21
The information I read suggested that a small POS doesn't make sense for moon mining. I can't say I've sorted it out that carefully, however. Just dunno.

Havoc
19-07-2006, 15:57:52
Originally posted by Nav
Donations would definately help, however would be happier to see them as loans. Or we could each invest the same amount (say 100m each or less depending on final reqs), so that the onus (and risk) isn't on one person.



So maybe instead of donations, those that contribute to the purchasing the POS with funds above and beyond taxes can split a percentage of the profitt. Some of the profitt can go back into the guild coffers, some back to paying the initial investors, and some for anything else we can think of.

On another note: Does anyone plan of training anchoring, and do our current haulers ie: neam and mraal have enough cargo space to move the POS mods around?

Mraal
19-07-2006, 16:58:12
A small POS works fine for single mineral mining. It can't really handle more than simple reactions, and that might be pushing its powergrid or CPU. Complex reactions take at least mediums and maybe larges. If we got lucky and found a moon with two products that can be used together in a simple reaction, we could look at putting in a larger POS (since we'd need power and CPU for two harvest arrays and a reactor). However, to start with we can be financially in the black with a small POS and a single mineral and get the hang of POS operations that way.
As for hauling - we'd have to have BS presence in the area while we bring the POS online and we'd need BS escorts for the indies. I think Neam and I have enough m3 to move the components, although it may take a few trips to get everything.
Oh, and I have anchoring (since I sometimes use secure cans).

Havoc
19-07-2006, 17:20:40
I don't think you'll have a problem getting volunteers for escorts :shoot:

Mraal
19-07-2006, 17:23:34
Oh, and I also forgot to add that I have a covetor with ice harvesters - I could defray the operating costs to some degree, although to do it properly I'd have to ice mine in low sec with an escort.

Mraal
19-07-2006, 17:24:10
But it'd have to be a hot escort.

Havoc
19-07-2006, 17:45:32
I'm not sure if any of the ladies on Craig's list have trained their Battleship skills, but I know they have trained fishnet stalking to 5.

Beta1
19-07-2006, 17:52:06
LOL, I have anchoring 1 and could get that up to 3 very quick. Which is all you need for most POS modules.

I can fly escort or hauler as I have a fairly big cargo bay. Well big enough to be usefull.

Ginfizwithatwist
19-07-2006, 17:56:24
I am currently training astro and barge to 5 on rotation and i have ice harvesting skill in my hanger- my covetor is gathering dust til then. (but no ice harvesters yet)
Me ol badgy 2 fully expanded with type d's will hold 11,200 m3 of gear.

Centara Fugue
19-07-2006, 20:14:21
Originally posted by Beta1
just for information CKU income for the last week was a shade over 12 million ISK

We could bump the tax rate up to a level that allowed us to maintain a medium POS. I'd be okay with that. How much would that cost and what would the tax rate need to be to support it? For that matter, would we want a large POS and if so, how much would that cost per week and what would the tax rate have to be to support it initially?

I'm assuming that if these stations are profitable, we can reduce the tax rate back down some when we see if it can sustain itself.

Maybe I'm being too simplistic in my thinking.

Havoc
19-07-2006, 21:20:31
I'm not sure if we want to jump into the investment of a large, especially as none of us are too familiar or practiced in the working of these things. It just might be too much of a gamble. If we can repackage and sell the parts when we're done, it won't cost us anything to start small and build up, other than maintenance resources. From what I understand, it also doesn't make sense to have a large or medium station if you can't utilize it. I.e. what types of resources the moon has, if we even have a moon.

Centara Fugue
19-07-2006, 21:38:52
The guide I just looked at briefly here (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=309301) seems to indicate that a small or a medium can be good, depending on what you want to mine. The person who wrote that guide I think just mines the minerals and sells them.

Sure, a small one sounds fine. That guide didn't seem to indicate that a medium or large is particularly better than a small, especially if it is near a moon with only one mineral we care about, in which case a medium or large would be wasted.

Mraal
19-07-2006, 21:42:30
Yes, correct - the medium and larges are good for multiple mining arrays and for supporting the reactors for making stuff. I kind of think it would be best to start with a small and get the hang of it.

Centara Fugue
19-07-2006, 21:55:51
The question I'm now asking myself is, "Why didn't I already put up 10 or 15 of these things all over the place?"

Is it just me, or is this the kind of thing that even a single player should be able to put up and manage? I guess with 10 or 15 of them, all my game time would be spent ferrying materials around.

That makes me ask the question, "Why didn't Neam already put up 10 or 15 of these things all over the place?"

JM^3
19-07-2006, 22:03:34
I have the feeling that 'good' moons in 'safe' space are going to be rare.

Jon Miller

Centara Fugue
19-07-2006, 22:09:01
That is likely true. However, just looking at the threads on the subject makes me want to go investigate some of the dead-end pockets of lowsec space, 0.3-, and see what's there.

I think it's cool that you can put guns on the thing and it will defend itself. They can kill groups of battleships, so the only thing you really have to fear is if someone thinks he's cute and brings his dreadnought in just to kill your POS (and I bet some people out there think they're cute). The number of people flying around in battleships is larger than the number of people flying dreads, and I wonder if most of the people with dreads have better things to do. Also, if you're online when Mr. Cute comes in his Dread, you stand a chance if you fly out there and help your POS.

Havoc
19-07-2006, 22:30:28
Originally posted by Beta1

The key is to keep the shield running - with the shield up it would take a fleet of BS days to drop the shield, or a Dread a few hours.

If a Dread turns up its basically toast no matter how fortified it is.

I think the best way of keeping it safe is to keep it somewhere quiet and out of the way. it s avery big universe and unless your looking for a POS you rarely run into them.

Centara Fugue
19-07-2006, 23:22:42
Originally posted by Havoc
quote:

Originally posted by Beta1

The key is to keep the shield running - with the shield up it would take a fleet of BS days to drop the shield, or a Dread a few hours.

If a Dread turns up its basically toast no matter how fortified it is.

I think the best way of keeping it safe is to keep it somewhere quiet and out of the way. it s avery big universe and unless your looking for a POS you rarely run into them.

Er, ok. I already read what Beta posted :hmm:. I also read this post (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=366835).

Havoc
19-07-2006, 23:26:18
Okay so if a Dred attacks and we're online we all ship up and go Nos him.

Centara Fugue
19-07-2006, 23:30:51
Seems so. We could probably shoot him some, too.

Skanky Burns
19-07-2006, 23:51:47
And get into frigates so even if he destroys our ships a few times, so what? Our total battle cost will be much lower than his.

Which means we should stock up on PvP frigates (ones with Nos, anti-target thingies, anti-warp thingies) and jump clones in or near the system our POS is located in.

We can defend against a small group of BS's, we can defend against a lightly-guarded Dread. We would have to really piss a corp off (or somehow find a really good moon that hasn't been grabbed yet) to get attacked by more than that.

Finally, I have a few POS stuff I could donate. From my ChemalTech work I have many chemical reactions and also small and med railgun arrays. That should help a bit.

JM^3
20-07-2006, 04:13:41
Dread's get superdefensive in seige mode.. they can't hit anything without support though...

JM

Beta1
20-07-2006, 09:07:55
Befor we go deploying anything we need to find a moon + figure out what possible products have a market that could support the POS.

Ginfizwithatwist
20-07-2006, 10:33:31
Totally agree.
We need to have a good range of products that appeal to all races, with some that are "essentials" but fairly diff to acquire normally in lo sec and some that are rare enough to be wanted in hi sec too.
We also need to look at a number of potential locations for the moon/pos in off the beaten track areas but still be fairly close to higher sec in order to be able to exploit both hi sec and lo sec markets.
Having a foot in both camps is no bad thing and will also serve as a plus in any recruitment drive we do.
We should form a priority list of things to research, things to do and things to acquire.

Beta1
20-07-2006, 11:45:14
I think research is a bit pointless until kali - for a start all the good T2 BPOs for the modules people want have been seeded already so theres only really ammo stuff left.

As for location theres a few places I would suggest - depending on their ongoing war with frege, gaia might let us join and install a POS on the osmedon - pure blind route. If thats too hostile still there are several 0.1-0.3 areas in solitude which has the benefit of being pretty quiet. Finally the area I currently operate in around uphallant is all low sec and I've never been bothered by pirates there.

Havoc
20-07-2006, 13:07:46
Okay, as far as priorities:

Skills:
The skills are being learned by Mraal, I believe (he already has anchoring).

Location:
Location can be determined by Beta and Mraal (unless someone else wants to contribute).

Modules:
Have we all agreed that starting with a small POS is reasonable?

If so, someone can volunteer to work with Skanky as he seems to have some mods to contribute.

As for other Mods

Originally posted by Beta1
I think all thats really needed is a couple of moon mining arrays, silos, reactor, ideally a mobile lab and a defense system.


Is this agreed upon? I think somewhere we decided that the number of moon mining arrays will depend on the moon.

Misc:
Other than Dread attacks, can anyone think of anything else to consider?

I think the rest of us can be available to help with anything else.

Mraal
20-07-2006, 13:11:43
Heh, Beta, all the BPOs except for (as I recall) strip miner 2 and ice harvester 2 were seeded sometime last week. Even the ammo types are gone. Word is that they may reseed in a month or two, but I (along with my four research agents) aren't holding our collective breath . . .
We probably won't find a "good" moon, but I'm confident we could find an "ok" moon - one that would turn a profit for a mining-only operation. Two ok moons could match products to make a reaction, but that would take two POS structures . . .
If we set up our POS to kill on sight, people won't have the chance to probe the moon and figure out how good it is. It may piss someone off, though . . .
Large rails on the POS should be able to kill battleships in a few shots - with dreads, we just have to break their tanks, which certainly means we use any cheap ships that can pack on the Nos modules.
Finally, I've noted the area you mentioned, Beta, as candidates for safe places. Anyone else who knows of low-traffic lowsec areas, let me know. I'll start making a list of systems to check out.

Havoc
20-07-2006, 14:02:23
Perhaps we should start considering the specific mods we want. This will entail a bit of accounting with cost and the power/grid/cap requirements for maintaining these mods.

JM^3
20-07-2006, 14:38:13
Metserel area and Uisper area I never see people at (are low sec, and they and the nearby areas I never seen anyone at).

JM

Beta1
20-07-2006, 14:41:17
theres a couple of web sites for doing the grid/cpu calculations.

I think we should consider starting with a medium - the tower is slightly more expensive but it is significantly more flexible. Also I'm not sure a small would have much left after two moon mining arrays.

I'm not able to use scan probes yet but I could be within a few days.

Mraal
20-07-2006, 14:54:02
Remember that a medium is going to have twice the fuel requirements of the small - it may stretch our supply capabilities sooner than we'd want. We couldn't fit two sets of harvesting arrays on a small at all - but we'd only want two arrays on the same POS if we were planning to do a reaction with the two.
As for modules - we'd want a silo, coupling array, and moon harvesting array (x2 if we go larger). A corporate hanger if people want to dump stuff there, but I'd consider that optional only. Then I'd say fill out the rest of the power/CPU with a shitload of guns and other fun stuff.

I can use probes with about a day of training, since for some reason I already have surveying a few levels up.

Havoc
20-07-2006, 14:58:11
I'd would say we should go with shield/armor and EWBs before guns. If the shield/armor can hold forever there is no reason to fire back. And EWBs are just bad ass.

I also like the bonuses on the Caldari control towers the best. Anyone have opinions about what racial control tower they like?

Beta1
20-07-2006, 14:58:17
moons produce two types of resource so it seems daft not to harvest the second even if its not worth much. I guess we could upgrade later though.

Mraal
20-07-2006, 15:33:29
The major sticking point with medium vs. small, in my opinion, is the supply cost - unless that second resource is worth ~12 mil per week (really 10-15 depending on market conditions), we'll lose money by putting in a medium and harvesting it.
If the second resource is not valuable, but can be used in a reaction with the first resource - well, that's a different story.

As for shield/armor - they won't hold forever against a dread. We simply don't have the ships to beat down a dread, so we should use POS guns for that and use our ships to nos it.

JM^3
20-07-2006, 15:35:54
I think I have heard that about mediums.. that it is only worth it if you are big or you can do a reaction..

JM

Havoc
20-07-2006, 16:07:16
I really think defense is better than offense. It's not like we're going to destroy the Dread easily with POS weaponary. The Dread was introduced to destroy the POS. Like Miller said, in defensive mode the Dread is pretty much indestructible.

Also, guns are something we can put on ships. Shield boosts to our POS is something we can't put on our ships.

And at least the shield and EWBs will defend against smaller ships, which we can use our ship guns against. And also buy us more time while we ship up and put in our Nos's.

If it comes down to it, I will use my contributions on shield hardeners and EWBs for the POS.

Lurker the Second
20-07-2006, 16:21:22
No one is going to attack a POS with a dread only. Unless they are extremely wealthy and extremely bored.

Personally, I am not interested in low security space. It doesn't help our miners really and the rats aren't worth the trouble. Mission running is much more profitable than ratting in low security space.

Ginfizwithatwist
20-07-2006, 17:31:50
Originally posted by Beta1
I think research is a bit pointless until kali -

Sorry, by research I meant - look into , read up on subjects around operating a pos and connected info i.e costings etc :cute:

We should also take into account that some of the corp may not want to be in lo sec as lurker said, so wherever we park it ,it should be near hi sec (within 1 or 2 jumps?)
Hopefully if we hide the pos well enough the buggers won't be able to find it! (div question- can you cloak a POS??) ;)

Beta1
20-07-2006, 17:42:29
to moon mine it needs to be 0.3 or below.

Neam - dont panic about low sec, the first thing we would do would be setup instas to and from the POS so it would be as safe as we can make it

Havoc
20-07-2006, 17:44:52
I'm not sure if you can cloak a POS but I know you can flush one.

Ginfizwithatwist
20-07-2006, 17:46:14
:lol: not in a panic quite yet !!

flush it where? :eek:

HelloKitty
20-07-2006, 17:49:40
Originally posted by Ginfizwithatwist
Sorry, by research I meant - look into , read up on subjects around operating a pos and connected info i.e costings etc :cute:

We should also take into account that some of the corp may not want to be in lo sec as lurker said, so wherever we park it ,it should be near hi sec (within 1 or 2 jumps?)
Hopefully if we hide the pos well enough the buggers won't be able to find it! (div question- can you cloak a POS??) ;)

1-2 jumps from high sec space is the worst place to put it.

Thats where gank squads set up, right on the borders with high sec..

Havoc
20-07-2006, 17:52:35
Originally posted by Ginfizwithatwist
flush it where? :eek:

In the states POS is an acronym for piece of shit.

Ginfizwithatwist
20-07-2006, 19:10:27
:lol:

Mraal
20-07-2006, 19:14:27
A small station with a harvester and silo does not have much power/cpu leftover. Shield and armor boosters take a large amoung of CPU, unlike weaponry. Dreads will make short work of a small POS regardless of the defenses; we may as well put guns on it to deter non-dread fleets. We cannot fight against dreads unless we rely on POS weapons (which hit harder than BS mountable weapons) to hit the dreads while we break their tanks with nos ships.

An ideal system for us will be about 5-8 jumps from high sec and in a non-corridor region; someplace that isn't an obvious chokepoint for gank squads to use. It'll take a bit of research with the evemaps to find candidate regions, but they're out there.

Havoc
20-07-2006, 19:23:48
The problem with station guns, which Lurker brought up kind of, is that they switch targets, and fire at stuff randomly. So if we got attacked there is no promise that the guns would even be shooting the Dread, which is why I favor shields and EWBs and we can attack with BS which seems to be the best way to attack dreads based on forum chatter.

So like I said, if it comes down to it, I'll buy shield/EWBs stuff. And if we're not going to have much CPU/grid leftover we should get a medium like Beta suggested.

Mraal
20-07-2006, 19:50:43
If we're looking to actually make money off a POS instead of just sinking money into operating costs, we probably need to stick with a small. There are only limited circumstances under which we could, at this point, pull off a profitable medium or large POS. If we find a moon suitable for it, sure, we can talk about giving it a shot. Otherwise we should really focus on what to do with a small POS.
A harvester plus a silo take 1000 CPU (1150 as I recall if we add a coupling array). The small towers have something like 1350 to 1900 CPU on them, and shield hardeners (again, as I recall - just taking a quick break from work for this post) take about 250 cpu each. Since we're non-alliance, I consider our major defense to be secrecy - simply not advertising our presence should go a long way.
Keep in mind POS guns are an extra size up from BS (large POS guns use extra-large ammo) and likewise do much more damage. While a small POS won't be able to take out dreads by itself, it certainly can if we put guns on it and break the tanks ourselves. However, it's questionable that our BS fleet could manage to inflict enough damage to take out dreads without POS gun support.
In the end, I don't think it much matters if we put guns or shields/armor on it, since if it's seriously attacked, it's already sunk. I suspect that a light attack would be better repelled with the aid of guns on the POS, though.

Beta1
20-07-2006, 19:59:00
so really what we need to do is get scanning and see what we find - then see what POS its profitable to put at that site.

Mraal
20-07-2006, 20:10:50
Indeed - that would be the first step. We're getting ahead of ourselves on the module discussion - all that we HAVE to have (for a financially viable station) is one harveter, one silo, and maybe a coupling array.
We should probably do surveys during the weekdays at night or early morning - it'll be dangerous, so no reason to do it when every ganker out there is online. I'll pencil in late monday night (EST) as when I'll start a survey - we can coordinate so we don't double-survey areas.

Beta1
20-07-2006, 20:19:24
well I guess I could start looking around the uphallant areas I've already BMed most of it so its fairly safe - gankers tend not to hang around the moons as theres not much there other than POS that can insta pop them!

Will have to wait though - I currently cant log on. :(

Centara Fugue
20-07-2006, 20:33:35
I found a 0.3 system that isn't on a route from hisec to losec, and I bookmarked it. I'm not at home atm to post what the name of the system is, but I'll post that later tonight or tomorrow. It has two stargates, both leading into higher-security space. There's no traffic there because it is a dead end. I hope there's a good moon in there.

Havoc
20-07-2006, 21:56:55
:shoot: :smoke:

Mraal
20-07-2006, 21:58:24
Cool - let me know what it is when you can, centara.
If anyone finds candidate systems, then please let us know. Also let us know if you will be surveying or if one of us should put it on a list to survey. Remember systems should be <= .3 in security and off the main 0.0 to high sec routes.
Actually, we may want to shift this to the corp evemail - this may not be the sort of stuff we want any old eve player who clicks on the link in our corp profile to find out.

Lurker the Second
21-07-2006, 00:37:53
Originally posted by Lurker the Second


Personally, I am not interested in low security space. It doesn't help our miners really and the rats aren't worth the trouble. Mission running is much more profitable than ratting in low security space.

Havoc
21-07-2006, 02:00:19
Are there any potential moons in high security space?

Mraal
21-07-2006, 02:30:59
No - or rather, you can put up a POS in .4-.7, but you can't harvest moons.

Beta1
21-07-2006, 07:53:34
To some extent I agree with lurker, although I'm generally quite happy in a 0.1 - you get a lot of three BC spawns which get you around 600K in bounties for 5 seconds work and I've picked up 30mill cargo expanders off them before.

I think they are far more time efficient ratting than taking out BS in the average 0.0.

I think we are more likley to find a decent moon in a 0.1 than a 0.3 as well.

Beta1
21-07-2006, 10:46:05
right, I've finally achieved my target of having 500mill in the bank so I'm now free to start scanning as of about 3pm this afternoon when the skill finishes.

Just thought this might be of some use

http://www.eve-search.com/index.dxd?thread=331220#5181049

It seems the Gaia/FREGE war in pure blind is over and the result is both have effectively disappeared and ekliptica have taken over. Thats a fairly good result as ekliptica are a anti pirate grouping.

But it does mean theres open space in Pure blind but its always been a bit of a battleground.

As for other alliances - big blue look friendly and their space is apprently open to visitors.

I've also found a few other systems that I'll want to look at - theres a promising looking 0.1 dead end

Nav
21-07-2006, 12:08:31
dead end = no escape routes! ;)

I know this is jumping ahead, but what about transporting the modules to the moon? Will we be able to do this in normal transports or will we need a freighter? (exp. plus high skill req). Read something about that a while ago.

JM^3
21-07-2006, 12:11:10
You can't construct a POS with a freighter...

JM

Havoc
21-07-2006, 12:40:08
Originally posted by Mraal
I think Neam and I have enough m3 to move the components, although it may take a few trips to get everything.


I think they'll be using industrials.

Skanky Burns
21-07-2006, 13:02:26
I've got an iteron IV as well. The only problem is I'm on at different time-zones to everyone else.

Beta1
21-07-2006, 13:55:06
I'm happy to keep track of the scanned systems. If you want to evemail me or PM any scanned systems + results I'll collate them

Mraal
21-07-2006, 14:04:38
Sounds good, Beta - thanks for volunteering to do that.

I'll try to start some surveys during off-peak times this weekend. It depends on how nervous I get in my target systems, though - it may get put off until the weekdays.

Nav
21-07-2006, 14:07:40
In terms of tracking stuff and making notes (but not revealing stuff on here), we could create a simple (ie free) basecamp account and use that. It would have username and password access.

I can set that up if you guys want then let Mraal (or whoever wants the responsibility) into the admin account to manage.

Havoc
21-07-2006, 14:14:04
Once you guys have surveyed some moons and have some candidates I think we should vote on which one is most suitable. The voting could be done by evemail. Would you guys be willing to make short descriptions with the relevant details for the top moon candidates of your choosing? The details could be sent to us through evemail of course.

Relevant details include:
The resources of the moon.
What security space the moon is in.
How many other moons are in the system.
How many systems are connected to the moon's system.
What are the security levels of the connected systems.
Who is currently recognized as the biggest presence in that area of space.
And anything else I can't think of.

Beta1
21-07-2006, 15:17:43
I've just started - be very careful not to wapr directly to moons without scanning first. If theres a POS already there it can insta pop a BS... I'm using a nice disposable vexor with a cloakcing device. So far I've found nothing except 3 POS and somebodies shuttle

Mraal
21-07-2006, 15:57:12
Lol, yeah - the best advice I saw was to warp to the planet, scan the moons from there for POS, then warp to the moons.

I was going to just use an iteron 3 with cloak. Congrats on finding that shuttle, though!

Beta1
21-07-2006, 16:16:51
anyone got the list of what is good in a moon. I've found a few that are not just atmospheric gases/silicates/evaporites but dont know if these other ones are any good.

editted

http://www.thebabushka.com/eve%2Donline/ is good reading.

I've found a promising location already, its in a 0.3 on the way to 0.0. Theres a few other POS in the system but theres an unoccupied caesium moon which is a L32 rarity mineral (check the link)

Beta1
23-07-2006, 22:41:04
Just to update the thread from a convo in game today - I've worked out the possible costs/profits on running various POS at the caesium moon which is our best site so far.

The simplest option - a small tower mining caesium for sale

selling caesium to the best local buyer - profits of 20K ISK/day
selling caesium on the market at the current galactic average - profits 2million ISK/day

more complex option - medium POS mining caesium and combining with cadmium bought from the market at current regional prices.

Selling caesarium cadmide at current best buy price - profit 4mill ISK/day
Selling at average galactic sell price - profit 8mill ISK/day

This does not take into account whether we could actually sell all our units/day without saturating the market but it gives us some idea of the relative profits.

From what I can make out there is little point in starting with anything less than a r32 moon unless its a lower rarity moon that gives a resource that matches a more rare one you already mine... So at them moment after 2 systems scanned we have one possible site. Not a bad hit rate, I thought it would be much worse, especailly as I'm working in a quite busy area (already 12 pos in the systems checked)

Asher
23-07-2006, 23:18:32
I've got an Iteron III with 8700m3, if that's of any use.

Mraal
24-07-2006, 04:07:16
I just surveyed about 45 moons in one system, found 5 POS and one moon with vanadium (r16). Several had cobalt (r8) and two each had the correct combination of gases to support a reaction for carbon polymers. I'll be checking more systems in the next few days, now I have to go evade the group of battleships that just came in.

Beta1
24-07-2006, 08:29:52
vanadium is pretty good. seems to be in high demand for an r16

Beta1
24-07-2006, 09:40:23
another system done, a few titanium, one vanadium, no POS or anything else interesting

Mraal
25-07-2006, 00:23:29
Well, one more system done. One vanadium, several cobalt, 2 POS.

Beta1
25-07-2006, 07:58:37
hmm cobalt doesnt match any of the other ones - we would need cadmium again.

Beta1
01-08-2006, 10:42:40
another system, lots of titanium, 3 POS, bugger all else

also scanned most of grispere which is the single most dull system I've ever been to.

Beta1
01-08-2006, 20:23:12
another thought - if we signed up to ISS alliance we would access to their 0.0 space and their moon scan database + their starbase program which means if we installed a POS that fits their industrial aims we would have a almost guaranteed market.

+ access to significant amounts of 0.0.

Costs are fairly steep - running at 25mill joining + 25mill/month.

But by their estimates a medium POS in thier program makes much more than this and we have almost have the cash to do that. Plus with 0.0 access we would make a big chunk of cash ratting.

Just a thought.

http://www.eve-iss.com/

Koyaanisqatsi
01-08-2006, 20:33:34
It sounds like a decent thought to me. Admittedly, I'm new, but the more I learn about this universe the more it seems like an alliance of this sort is required to do anything significant.

Skanky Burns
01-08-2006, 21:11:42
To join and keep fees low we would need to keep our corp size under 20. Still, this is certainly worth investigating further. Plus 0.0 seems a good area to make money in.

JM^3
01-08-2006, 23:45:28
I like ISS, but I like TBB better...

I don't know about other Alliances...

JM

Centara Fugue
01-08-2006, 23:55:27
Something like this seems like a good idea to me. I think it'd be a good way to see how it works, and if we make a profit, yay!

If we don't make a profit, we cancel after trying for a while and move elsewhere.

Beta1
02-08-2006, 07:58:19
We are at 20 now but only if we include the various inactive characters and alts we have.

TBB = The Big Blue?

They are a good alliance too but ISS control more space I think.

just checked the corp accounts, in the last week we made 13mill so heading for around 50mill/month

Beta1
02-08-2006, 10:04:56
Another POS thought - maybe we are looking to do the wrong thing - moon mining seems to be a saturated market and theres loads of moon resources on the market for less than their production cost (running a small POS costs around 600-700 ISK/unit minerals produced).

So unless we find a high rarity we will struggle to sell it.

On the other hand there maybe more money in running a reacting operation, buying up the cheap minerals and selling the products. This would also be more flexible as if we cant find one set of minerals cheap we just switch to a different reaction.

This could even be combined with a harvesting array on a medium POS

Beta1
02-08-2006, 10:21:02
example reaction

Medium POS running costs - approx 3.1mill/day

Buying 2400 carbon polymers 1.2mill/day
Buying 2400 Pt technite 12mill/day

reacting and selling fullerides - 23mill/day
profit approx 7.5mill/day

needs more capitol but could be a better bet - esp because if after a week we run out of people to sell to we just switch to another production. Also because we are producing a complex reaction product if we bought a T2 component BPO and a second product we could build a T2 component. this is done in a factory so we dont need another reactor on the POS

Nav
02-08-2006, 11:06:28
Read the POS guide yesterday, can be quite complex, thank god you spent the time working it out! ;)

I will have some time (and the skills) at the weekend to do some surveying if it's still necessary.

Lurker the Second
02-08-2006, 15:08:36
Pickled will be able to fly a covert ops ship in about a week. I am going to try to go deep into 0.0 and investigate some POS possibilities there. I'll need advice what to look for, though.

Beta1
02-08-2006, 15:34:41
its not really anything specific - you just have to sit there scanning every moon in the system (after first using the scanner to check for a pos).

Lurker the Second
02-08-2006, 15:41:29
Oh, so I guess I'm expected to take notes or something. :D

Centara Fugue
02-08-2006, 16:50:50
That reaction idea is clever. I'd be in favor of something like that, also, if the mining doesn't pan out. Are there any other options for a POS? Could we sell other corps cloning rights in our POS similar to the way we paid ISS?

Beta1
02-08-2006, 17:12:36
you need an outpost for that (multi billion ISK)

Mraal
02-08-2006, 17:20:59
It's certainly an idea.
I had looked at ISS as a possibility a week or two ago, the 25 mil thing kind of threw me off, but on second thought it could be a good idea.
Going with a reaction medium POS could be interesting too - and at least then we're not going to get pushed into an unfavorable star system for the sake of a resource that happens to be there.

Skanky Burns
03-08-2006, 00:05:58
Have we found a good system where we can set up a reaction POS, that doesn't involve paying rent and is in an out-of-the-way system? Sounds like a decent idea, and won't put us at the mercy of the market so much as mining would. Near ice would be good.

I'll take a look at what chem reactions I have lying around and list them when I get the chance.

For interest's sake, what is the potential profit of a large POS doing complex reactions?

Beta1
03-08-2006, 07:25:31
havnt worked out a large POS but I suspect it would be less than that of a medium unless it was either doing 2 reactions or was also harvesting.. Of course if we were doing a reaction htat involved one of the simple/simple reactions we could harvest it and do the simple reaction then combine that for a complex one. That would require a large POS. but thats a lot more cash and fuel.

Snotty
03-08-2006, 18:29:03
Summery? Have we got anywhere other than chat?

Whos pickled? a lurker alt?

My psu burnt out, another is in the post, after which I hope to cling onto my gfs work laptop for civ while I play eve on my desktop

Venom
03-08-2006, 18:47:20
I think the consensus is no consensus. Or at least a medium station somewhere. Possibly part of an alliance.

Snotty
03-08-2006, 18:58:43
:lol: you guys couldnt organize a piss up in a quafe station ;)

Beta1
03-08-2006, 19:01:33
Summary of options so far:

1: Mine Caesium in a system in placid, low sec but only one jump from safe space on a gate I've only seen camped once in two months and then by a incompetent pirate who nearly got killed by me in a non PvP equiped ship. (Unless Mraal has found something better recently)

2: Approach an alliance (eg ISS) then deploy POS in their space

3: Deploy a medium POS to use as a reactor hoovering up cheap resources from the market. This could be done anywhere although low sec would be cheaper as theres no need for starbase charters.

My prefered option would be to deploy a reactor based POS initially, could even be combined with 1 and put on the caesium moon to do both. Then once we have a little more cash go for the alliance and move the POS into 0.0. We could always just whack up a small POS to get the hang of it to start with. The bits dont go off so we can take it down and do something else with it later.

Venom
03-08-2006, 19:12:38
Originally posted by Snotty
:lol: you guys couldnt organize a piss up in a quafe station ;)

Hey, I've stayed out of it, so don't blame me. If I was running things we'd have made a decision by now. It would have been a terrible decision, but we'd have made it.

Koyaanisqatsi
03-08-2006, 21:29:52
Here's my vote: Do something, at least. Finding a viable mining site for high-grade ore seems to be kind of time consuming, so I would say either speak to an alliance that can provide us with a site immediately or set up the less location-dependent reactor. Given that I've probably contributed about thirty cents to the corporate fund and can't really help run it for a long time, I probably don't have the right to say much...but it seems reasonable to get something going, even if it has to be changed later.

Skanky Burns
04-08-2006, 00:14:45
My vote goes to doing option 1 and 3 with a medium POS. We can test out the operation in a fairly low-risk environment and if we decide to do something different later or find a better moon, we can pack it up and move. In the meantime it can increase our income while our search continues. It will help identify resupply issues we may come across before adding 0.0 difficulties to our resupply efforts.

What builds can we make for a med POS assuming we have a reactor and at least 1 mining module on it?

Beta1
04-08-2006, 05:03:15
what do we need then - harvestor + silo then 2 input silos, a reactor and one output silo? I dont think we need a coupling array unless we feed the harvestor into the reactor.

Skanky Burns
05-08-2006, 09:14:54
I have 6 different simple reactions out of the 19 available.

Crystalite alloy
Fernite alloy
Fluxed condensate
Neo mercurite
Prometium reaction
Titanium cromide

Mraal
05-08-2006, 13:27:50
Sounds like that's what we need, Beta.
The coupling arrays might be useful, otherwise it looks like we could lose some materials on the reactor side (when we take silos offline to remove products, etc.)
I've not found any more promising moons - I've done about 6 systems now in Genesis.

Ginfizwithatwist
05-08-2006, 15:00:32
My vote gets 1 and 3- lets get started, see how the land lies (mixed metaphore in regards to space) and find out how we fare, what the stalling points are etc, kinda wot skanky said!

Big Thanks :love: to the guys who have been spending their vauable time surveying moons, researching background and doing calculations for us, dispite the unhelpful :shoot: comments from certain posters above about discussions and piss ups in quafe factories-

Where the bloody hell :bash: were you when all this was going on?? :D

Nav
05-08-2006, 15:22:02
Ok so together Mraal and Beta1 have fired off about 300 probes, with I hear to not very much success. As each probe costs 192,866.40isk (ish!), that is quite an outlay.

I have just done a quick test survey run, with poor results... So the question is do we go with the best we've got or keep looking.

Personally I can't afford to survey loads of systems. Even the corp funds would get stretched doing it, and we want to save most of that for the components of the POS!

Will do a few more tonight and see if anything turns up, but I'd go with whatever we can as soon as we can. ;)

Skanky Burns
05-08-2006, 15:32:16
The thing is we can go with what we have now and keep searching. Moving a POS, while not trivial, can be done without great expense.

Nav
05-08-2006, 16:10:32
Yes of course, thanks for volunteering!

I've done a deal with the CFO of CKU and he's agreed to go 50/50 on my probe expenses...

Beta1
05-08-2006, 16:44:51
Hmm remind me who is CFO of CKU again?

Well if we are good to go then we need to decide on what size and whoes paying

It will have to be a medium if we are going to react anything.

Then its just a case of getting the cash together.

I'll try and come up with a design that works and get a cost on it

Skanky Burns
05-08-2006, 16:46:43
:b:

Beta1
05-08-2006, 16:57:00
hmm have run into a snag. I cant fit a reactor and three silos (two in, one out) onto a medium tower. For some reason a soli needs 500CPU each and thats what takes us over.

I can fit a medium reactor (actually the smallest version) but that runs at half speed and cant do complex reactions. The other option is a large tower... Time to do some more maths

HelloKitty
05-08-2006, 17:47:21
Originally posted by Beta1
Hmm remind me who is CFO of CKU again?



Some loser named vonner.

Beta1
05-08-2006, 18:18:25
yup the nerfed reaction speed on a medium reactor kills the profit - a medium reactor POS runs at break even.

on current market conditions in placid the best POS deployment I can come up with is a small miner on the caesium moon Which runs at about 1.8mill/day profit.

Also I'm worried about the long term trends of the cost of ice products. The removal of high sec ice is probably going to drive the costs up and the cost of running POS will rise significantly.

For example a 5 ISk rise on the cost of oxygen isotopes would push up large bases fuel costs by a couple of million. Thats enough to drive a small POS into the red. And as small mining POS are at the bottom of the supply chain thats going to have some interesting knock on effects.

Its quite possible CCP's move agasint the macro-miners will wipe out a number of small hi-sec T2 production operations.

Centara Fugue
06-08-2006, 03:01:29
Originally posted by Beta1
Its quite possible CCP's move agasint the macro-miners will wipe out a number of small hi-sec T2 production operations.

I have a feeling that will only be temporary, and they will become profitable again after the market resettles. It may be that rising ice prices will drive up the prices of the things produced by those stations, for example.

Nav
06-08-2006, 11:11:46
Found a potential location this morning. With Caesium and Titanium on one moon and cadmium, chromium on others in the same system.

Ginfizwithatwist
06-08-2006, 11:32:39
Well done nav, looks like the mother lode has been struck!! :smoke:

so... do we now need to get our crap together fast in order to stake our claim (how do we do that?, is it a case of parking a can at the appropriate place) and start deploying??

Beta1
06-08-2006, 11:35:41
it doesnt need much maths to work out that the caesium/titanium moon is the most profitable yet. not sure if it would fit harvesting both on a small POS though

Theres two possible simple reaction from the resources in that system. Nice one Nav!

Nav
06-08-2006, 11:45:52
I'm going to survey one more system nearby, but we should consider getting a CT there ASAP if we want to use it.

Edit: There's also a couple of ice fields in the system next door.

Ginfizwithatwist
06-08-2006, 11:52:02
fab- it almost looks like you stumbled on the equiv of a mining DIY store, with almost everything right there- a one stop shop! :lol:

Koyaanisqatsi
06-08-2006, 11:52:24
Originally posted by Beta1
not sure if it would fit harvesting both on a small POS though

According to this (http://eve.1019.net/pos/index.php) , it looks like a small doesn't have the CPU to handle two harvesting arrays and two silos.

Nav
06-08-2006, 11:58:00
Think we need 1 medium and maybe a small for one of the 1 metal moons.

Ginfizwithatwist
06-08-2006, 12:11:34
Saw this in the sell orders of Eve online forums:
Author Topic

SilverCut

Posted - 2006.08.02 18:36:00

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by: SilverCut on 02/08/2006 18:36:37
Caldari control tower medium 180mil 10% off save 20mil from list price
Mobile Lab 81mil 10% off save 9mil from list price
In Lag HQ i mean jita can move tho

Will take 250mil for both



And thought of us!

Nav
06-08-2006, 12:17:23
I'd rather go with a Gallente tower as its more appropriate for the location, bearing in mind availability of fuel types.

Ginfizwithatwist
06-08-2006, 12:22:04
well in that case:
Posted - 2006.08.03 15:43:00 by Xartarous (caldari- tongue talking fanatics)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've got a small gallente control tower for sale in the Solitude region. It's currently in escrow at Oerse VI - Moon 6 - Material Acquisition Mineral Reserve, and is priced at 95,000,000 ISK

but its only a small

Nav
06-08-2006, 12:30:26
For 5m? saving its hardly worth transporting from Solitude.

Skanky Burns
06-08-2006, 12:46:20
We can do 3 simple reactions caesium, titatanium, chromium and cadmium:
- Caesarium cadmide
- Solerium reaction
- Titanium cromide reaction.
I have the last one already.

We also have one of the ingredients for another 3 simple reactions if we buy cobolt, platinum or promethium. I have two of these reactions.

Beta1
06-08-2006, 18:57:40
Still think we should start with a small harvester on the best moon - then if that works we can move it to one of the other moons and stick a medium on the double moon.

Koyaanisqatsi
06-08-2006, 19:32:39
I agree.

edit: The only caveat would be if we want to try to claim two moons that have matching reactants and think that somebody else might take the other half of the pair while we're getting started. Since there's nothing in the system now, I don't know how likely that is. Also, as there are multiple moons in the system with the same minerals, it's probably not necessary at this point.

Lurker the Second
06-08-2006, 19:49:45
btw, from my perspective, the corp should reimburse everyone for the probes they used.

Is this a 0.0 system?

Centara Fugue
07-08-2006, 02:29:19
yeah, i'm hearing good things about this system, but i'm curious what the catch is. is it in a system that's on a route from low-sec to hi-sec, or is it just deep in low-sec (safer)?

sounds good to me, whichever we want to do. one moon, two moons, whatevah.

Nav
07-08-2006, 09:56:25
System is enroute to Cloud Base? 0.0, but when I was there it wasn't really that busy. Mraal was going to go over and have a second look anyway, and survey a couple of systems I missed when scouting.

Lurker the Second
07-08-2006, 12:45:43
Like I said, I prefer a 0.0 system. Any idea what alliance claims the space?

Nav
07-08-2006, 13:51:18
We haven't been considering 0.0 systems as far as I'm aware. Only 0.1-0.3. If you want to go survey 0.0 go for it ;)

I personally do not want the corp to join an alliance, even if we didn't have to join one, I imagine we would have to pay for rights to plant a POS.

Most importantly it would also be much more dangerous, especially for such trivial things as getting fuel to it, and also access for our more 'noob' members. I don't believe we have the numbers to manage in 0.0. I think we should walk before we can run.

Lurker the Second
07-08-2006, 14:10:40
Ah, I guess I misunderstood your post. I thought you were saying it is in 0.0, which I thought unusual b/c I was pretty sure you guys were just looking in low sec space.

I don't have a problem with putting a POS in low sec space. I think it is good to learn the ins and outs of POS management before embarking on bigger adventures.

Beta1
07-08-2006, 14:59:07
well this site is close to a 0.0 access point and from what I can see on the map the area isnt alliance claimed (well not on the in game map but that doesnt mean much these days)

Its also only a couple o fjumps from safe space at orvolle and seems to be a very quiet area. I was surveying about 4 jumps south of there and noone passed through the system I was in for 40 minutes

Nav
07-08-2006, 16:00:57
Was reading on the EVE forums today how somebody had found an inactive POS. Might be worth scouting out (in pods) the locations with POS's to see if they're still active, if they're offline we could move in ourselves.

Of course we would have to be sure they're abandoned as the only way to remove an existing POS is to destroy it...

Beta1
07-08-2006, 16:22:26
interesting new on the 0.0 front. according to the latest strategic map noone is now claiming the ex-FREGE space in pure blind (thats the bit at the end of the Osemeden pipe). So theres a nice hunting area for anyone who wants it.

Cloud ring is currently disputed - Goonswarm v D2D and a few others. So if you assume everyones out to get you thats a possible area.

So with the recent couple of wars taking out alliances some of the easier to reach 0.0 is suddenly open. So at least you wont be ganked for invading someones patch. You'll still be ganked but just for the hell of it!

Koyaanisqatsi
07-08-2006, 16:52:03
So (just to clarify) we're just waiting on Mraal to scan those two systems and if they come up blanks we're setting up shop on the Cs/Ti moon?

Nav
07-08-2006, 18:43:05
Mentioned it before and Lurker thinks we also need some area to discuss things in private. So I've setup a basecamp account so we can better plan/manage our POS etc. It has password access so we can talk top secret stuff. ;) It's fairly simple and has some cool features, above all it's free for one project.

http://cku.grouphub.com

I need current emails (and ingame name!) from everyone (in the corp) so I can create logins. Either pm me or tell me ingame in the corp channel.

Koyaanisqatsi
07-08-2006, 18:55:18
sent

Mraal
07-08-2006, 22:05:03
I'll try to scan those systems tonight, might not make it though.
This system sounds good - we may want to go ahead and plan for a POS there, we can redirect to one of the other systems if we find something. The other systems are further from ice fields and from high sec, though, so there are some drawbacks even if they look ok.

Nav
07-08-2006, 22:25:24
I checked out the area north of Osmeden to ISS and it looks very crowded. 9 POS's in one case orbiting one planet. Total of 31 moons in this case, but all the rest where just gas. So think its unlikely we'll find a good unused moon there.

Have created instas from Osmeden to the location, but think I might have overshot most of them will have to check and probably redo...

I will add all the basecamp accounts tmrw.

Skanky Burns
07-08-2006, 23:54:34
Is there any way to make a secret forum here at CG? That would probably be easier to do than having us check another site.

But sent, anway.

Neeco
08-08-2006, 04:30:19
When we do settle on a place for our POS... we are going to be buying a nice looking POS, correct? It would be a shame to get a POS that didn't look good since we're probably going to be using it lots.

Asher
08-08-2006, 04:38:21
:D

Beta1
08-08-2006, 07:26:34
Originally posted by Skanky Burns
Is there any way to make a secret forum here at CG? That would probably be easier to do than having us check another site.

But sent, anway.

wot? another one?

Nav
08-08-2006, 09:09:48
yeah only one secret forum per board... anyway basecamp is useful is that we can manage the POS like any project, assign tasks, to-do lists etc that are much easier to manage than in a thread based format. If it doesn't work then we can think of something else...

Lurker the Second
08-08-2006, 14:20:49
My log in worked. I decided not to spam the boards. I am getting old. :(

JM^3
08-08-2006, 14:38:37
please add me

JM

Snotty
08-08-2006, 15:50:43
I assume Im still one of our richer members? how much capital do I need to free up to provide a large chunk of cash for the POS?

Nav
08-08-2006, 16:02:27
I guess that depends on how many want to invest and the amount of cash needed. Hopefully not more than a 100m each.

jon pm me your email and ingame name.

Venom
08-08-2006, 16:10:54
100m each? Ummmm I might need to collect donations again.

Lurker the Second
08-08-2006, 16:12:02
You need to change your title to "Space Bum"

Venom
08-08-2006, 17:24:18
If everything wouldn't cost 100 million fucking isk.

I'll start making money now that I'm not waiting around for you on your stupid missions while you flop around space in your shuttle forgetting your cargo, your mission objectives, your pants, and your dignity and common sense.

Beta1
08-08-2006, 18:36:47
well we should probably work out some sort of share type thing if we did it in blocks of say 25 or 50mill then probably anyone who wanted to could get involved. Even after a sepdning spree and a spectacularly unproductive day or two I'm still good for say 250mill if we needed it.

Nav - I assume you have my address still.

Lurker the Second
08-08-2006, 19:02:02
What we need to do first and foremost is sort out the corporate shares that have been issued already. (HK has them all right now and I'm not even sure how many were issued.) Once that is done we can tie capital calls to existing shares or issuance of new shares.

Who are the original people who contributed capital to the corp.? Off the top of my head, I seem to recall at least the following:

Kitty
Beta
Nav
Fish

Pretty sure about the following b/c I think I loaned them the isk:

Jon
Venom

Not sure about anyone else.

Venom
08-08-2006, 19:30:25
Kitty paid for me and I paid her back. Not you. Ass face.

Snotty
08-08-2006, 19:42:48
i paid

Centara Fugue
08-08-2006, 19:52:29
I also paid

Havoc
08-08-2006, 20:19:11
HK has 500 shares and Mraal has 500 shares. But if HK caught me telling you this, she'd be pissed cause im not in the corp. If I'm a spy I'm doing a horrible job of remaining covert.


Since there are a finite number of shares and the amount of money people will be donating to the corp will always be changing, maybe there should be some other method of tabulating how much each person has contributed? Its very difficult to represent the financial contribution to the corp through shares, as they will have to traded around in the corp and such as more and more people donate and ratios of capital donated change.

Venom
08-08-2006, 20:29:25
Hey I helped found this Corp. Don't make me use the Duke brothers rant from the end of Trading Spaces to make my point.

Koyaanisqatsi
08-08-2006, 20:36:52
Originally posted by Havoc
Since there are a finite number of shares and the amount of money people will be donating to the corp will always be changing, maybe there should be some other method of tabulating how much each person has contributed? Its very difficult to represent the financial contribution to the corp through shares, as they will have to traded around in the corp and such as more and more people donate and ratios of capital donated change.

As somebody who's a relatively interested party but unlikely to get anything no matter what is used, I'd suggest % of total corp SP. It could be rebalanced at fixed intervals, and is a fairly good representation of a character's current value to the corp as a whole.

I don't know, just what I thought of when I read that. Feel free to tell me to fuck off.

Ginfizwithatwist
08-08-2006, 21:33:30
I Paid too when i joined.

JM^3
08-08-2006, 23:03:51
I paid.. well, I borrowed, and paid, and paid back the money I borrowed. I did just recently pay back Vonner, but that was for Advanced Int.

JM

Centara Fugue
08-08-2006, 23:09:53
I'm with those who want to do it some way other than shares or whatnot. The smaller folks can't generate the revenue the bigger ones can, and at the same time, a little bit of isk goes a long way for a smaller toon. The idea of making it SP based is good, but I wish there was some way to automate that.

Maybe we should just use the profits to build more POSs. We could slowly take over everything! People would be like, "Kancho?"

Skanky Burns
08-08-2006, 23:57:23
As long as some of the revenue is used to pay for fuel and such brought to the station, I'm happy for the profits to stay in the corp. Additional POS's don't buy themselves.

Hell, we could keep the POS profit in the corp and distribute the profit indirectly by reducing the tax rate for everyone. That would reward people based on how much money they are making rather than seniority or current wealth.

HelloKitty
09-08-2006, 02:21:32
My sched becomes pretty damn restricted again about the 10th. I will send nav the second 500 stocks so you don't have to wait for me to log on if you all decide what to do.

Just send me whatever portion I get.

Honestly, unless we go public the only good they do is for votes.

Oh and I am as broke as venom, i have been playing the EVE stock market and bought stocks ina few public companies.

Skanky Burns
09-08-2006, 02:24:02
Do they pay dividends?

Nav
09-08-2006, 08:24:54
Using SP is an interesting idea, though it's in-practical to change allocation once distributed. It does skew in the favour of older players (9m sp here), so not sure if that will be popular.

If the extra cash needed to setup the POS(s) is seen as an investment then the shares will have be distributed based on the pc of total contribution (or somesuch method).

If the money from players is just a loan, then we could split shares evenly among active corp members.

HelloKitty
09-08-2006, 09:17:25
Originally posted by Skanky Burns
Do they pay dividends?

Thats kind of the point.

Lurker the Second
09-08-2006, 12:22:09
The point of selling shares is to raise capital. If you contribute capital you should get the shares. If you can't at this point, that's not a problem, you just won't own shares yet. We certainly don't have to issue or distribute all the shares the game mechanics allow at this time and there probably isn't a reason to. People can always buy in later, although until if and when the corp starts paying dividends buying stock won't be for the purpose of making isk. Being a member of the corp and owning the shares of the corp are two different things.

Nav
09-08-2006, 12:41:56
Agreed. Would personally prefer if it was investment based, but its something we can look at later.

btw I set a deadline of sunday on basecamp for the control tower to go up (for want of using the system!). Seems reasonable, if we're happy with that location. ;)

There was a small gate camp at the system high-sec entrance and a few other pirates hanging around earlier yesterday eve. But I think if we have stabs and instas those kind of things shouldn't be an issue?

Lurker the Second
09-08-2006, 12:47:09
Yeah, risk is part of EVE and part of this venture.

Havoc
09-08-2006, 12:53:31
I would say give every member a baseline number of shares maybe 10 or so. This way everyone has at least some controlling interest in the corp. Then maybe distribute 50% of the remaining shares to the investors in the POS based on percentage invested. The remaining shares can be kept out of circulation for the time being.

I really feel strongly about everyone having at least some shares regardelss of their financial contribution to the corp. How the remaining shares are distributed I agree should probably be on investment into the POS. How exactly they are distributed I dont care as much about.

Skanky Burns
09-08-2006, 12:57:25
Originally posted by HelloKitty
Thats kind of the point.

As opposed to a buy-low sell-high stock-trading game which would not necessarily require dividends to be paid out.

Venom
09-08-2006, 13:31:52
Then the new question is, what becomes of the money in the corp account already? Money that everyone has paid into through taxes. Does that give people shares if it's used or have we already decided we're just going to use new investment money?

Lurker the Second
09-08-2006, 14:12:03
The corp doesn't really have much in the way of assets other than its charter and cash. It is, in my opinion, a waste of effort to try to apportion shares based on contributions to date. Most of the cash comes from the heavy mission runners, but ratters and mining ops have certainly also contributed. As a mission runner who has contributed a lot by way of taxes, I have no problem dividing shares equally among the current corp members and valuing those shares by simple division using the total shares issued as the denominator and corp asset value as the numerator.

In theory, then, we could just raise new capital by issuing and selling new shares based on the then-current share price. You buy what you can afford, and we can establish a procedure whereby each corp member has the opportunity to buy equal shares. Those who can't afford the full shares offered can buy what they want and the remainder will then be offered on an equitable basis to the other shareholders.

The biggest problem with that approach is I don't know what limitations on share issuance the game mechanics impart.

Also, this structure shouldn't be compared to real life public stock offerings. It is more akin to a closed corporation or a private partnership, which are often the genesis of public corps.

Havoc
09-08-2006, 15:23:23
Dividing the shares up equally now is fine with me, but I think that the 130mil in the corp account is too low for 1000 shares.

That starts us out at 130k per share. Many of us are in a position to be able to buy > 1000 additional shares.

A way around this is for me to contribute 130mil to the corp to raise to price of the shares and then get a fraction of the shares based on the new corp account = 260mil (I would get 500 shares).

If all of us with significant wealth did this and then divided the shares in the above manner, we'd end up with the beginning scenario again of the shares being distributed by wealth.

Edit:
If some of us wealther members were altruistic we could donate money to the corp account to raise the initial share price, without asking for anything in return.

How are the shares born?

Nav
09-08-2006, 15:32:30
Have no idea, but its not something we need to worry about at all. If we have to worry about it, that's a good thing.

Edit: answer to original question.

HelloKitty
09-08-2006, 16:35:01
Originally posted by Skanky Burns
As opposed to a buy-low sell-high stock-trading game which would not necessarily require dividends to be paid out.

Stocks that pay no divendends are worthless, so you can't do that with them.

JM^3
09-08-2006, 16:52:06
Not if they are for control of the corporation...

The ones that pay divedends.. and are worthless without, are ones where the CEO controls 50.1% of the shares.. then there is no control with shares, just profit.

I suggest some smaller ammount for all members, with additional ammounts for people (like Fugue, Mraal, Vonner, Fish, and others) who can donate more.

Jon Miller

HelloKitty
09-08-2006, 17:09:23
A couple things that go back to the why are we doing this question.

What is the long term goal of building a POS?

Is it to simply make money for the corp? Is it to do something else? What are we doing with the money?


How does that relate to shares? Where will the money the corp makes go?

If you are going to do buy in for shares you would have to do divs to pay for the investment.

Will an alliance be required? Why? What would we get out of that?

I know several people are actively hunting allainces while several of us are dead set against it, Nav and I in particular since there is no benefit and only cost in time, effort, and money for us right now.

How are the shares going to be distributed?

1- By SP? Worst idea ever. The old members would get the lionshare for no reason at all. Plus would we give shares to new people as they join the corp? If so what happens when they leave? You can't recal stock.

2- By investment in a POS? Again, terrible idea. Some old members like venom would get screwed out of anything, all the new members would get screwed, and the people who are not interested in a POS get screwed. An option to buy in later also screws the people who bought in at first, because new stock would have to be issued which lowers the value of the people who originally donated regardles of if they want more issued.

If 2 is the way to go there is no reason not to just go public. You would need

-a plan in detail, showing expected costs, profits, risks, etc.

-A profit/div struture showing where money going into the corp account will go, how often, how much, and when profits wil be paid out, etc.

Post the plan on the eve boards to see how fast no one invests in this plan though.

3- Donations from members which are paid back from the corp account when the money is available. This is probably the simplest way and how we have done everythng else.


Personally I think 3 is the best option and for distibution of the stock everyone who donated to the original founding of the corp should get an equal share of the 1000.

In this way the stock could actually be used the only way it would really be useful for our corp, for voting. Right now using the stock for creation of funds just screws too many people if kept within the corp, and would never make any money if public.

This way any alliance, creation of stock, change in corp structure, etc could be voted on by the holding members.

A point could be decided for when newer members would become "vested" in the corp, maybe say 6 months from join date. At that point The current holding members would vote to create X new stocks to give that person a share in the corp. Alternatly if a newer member wanted to they could always just buy a portion from a current stockholder.

If in the future we start paying divs on profit this system would treat all contributing members equally without hurting new members.

This setup would also allow a simple transition mechanism if the corp ever goes public with a defined share % for initial stock creation and sales.

HelloKitty
09-08-2006, 17:12:08
Originally posted by JM^3
Not if they are for control of the corporation...

The ones that pay divedends.. and are worthless without, are ones where the CEO controls 50.1% of the shares.. then there is no control with shares, just profit.

I don't have the money to buy control of ISS, nor will they sell controling stock.


I suggest some smaller ammount for all members, with additional ammounts for people (like Fugue, Mraal, Vonner, Fish, and others) who can donate more.

Jon Miller

So the corp no longer exists, it is now just a name for a to be created POS? Thats what this plan does. The people who can't donate get screwed, and the people who don't want to pay for a POS get screwed.

JM^3
09-08-2006, 17:12:59
I think most people are against being in an Alliance:

Fugue, HK, Vonner, Neam, etc are all against joining an alliance.

JM

JM^3
09-08-2006, 17:15:26
How do the people who don't want to pay for a POS get screwed? If Fugue doesn't want to pay for the POS, he doesn't have to spend any of his funds. The decision of the Corp to go for a POS, with corp funds, is one the corp should make.. this does not include additional donations (which are donations, and should not be enforced).

JM

HelloKitty
09-08-2006, 17:20:56
Originally posted by JM^3
How do the people who don't want to pay for a POS get screwed? If Fugue doesn't want to pay for the POS, he doesn't have to spend any of his funds. The decision of the Corp to go for a POS, with corp funds, is one the corp should make.. this does not include additional donations (which are donations, and should not be enforced).

JM

From your last post.

I suggest some smaller ammount for all members, with additional ammounts for people (like Fugue, Mraal, Vonner, Fish, and others) who can donate more.

If you recieve something for your donation, it isn't a donation.

And it isn't the decision of the corp, in this hypothetical case Fugue never really got an equal say since there was no real voting procedure. This would have been a decision of the people with the most money who also want a POS, who would in turn gain control of the vast majority of stock, further screwing Fugue out of any future corp decisions.

JM^3
09-08-2006, 17:27:13
alright.. but groups smaller than a corp can't control a POS, in fact, corps must control POSes..

so do Mraal, Beta, and others spend a lot of resources for a POS which everyone owns?

that is the reason that those who have put more into things should get more out of them

JM

JM^3
09-08-2006, 17:27:55
I mean, one option would be for there to be two corps, one with people who want to contribute to the POS and run it, and one with people who don't...

JM

HelloKitty
09-08-2006, 17:30:01
Did you even read my whole post?

Read what I think is the best option.


And again, as I have said, that would pretty much nullify the corp as an entity and CKU would just be a name for a POS.

JM^3
09-08-2006, 17:32:20
I mean, right now what is the Corp (because chat is on the COUNTERGLOW channel).

It is a means to get JumpClones (which probably less than half the members have acquired). It has a tax.. which hasn't really done anything so far.. and it is starting to do a POS.

JM

HelloKitty
09-08-2006, 17:34:57
So, you are saying lets completely throw away the corp because its not doing much right now?

Did you even read my whole post?

Read what I think is the best option.

QFR

JM^3
09-08-2006, 17:37:50
The problem with that idea is that POSes take work.

Are you suggesting that the results from the POS be whole owned by the people taking care of it?

JM

HelloKitty
09-08-2006, 17:41:07
Originally posted by JM^3
The problem with that idea is that POSes take work.

Are you suggesting that the results from the POS be whole owned by the people taking care of it?

JM

Not at all. I am suggesting the CORP be owned by the current members and people who founded it.

As opposed to what you are supporting where the corp is owned by the people who run the POS.

Again, read my post, you don't seem to have done so still.

JM^3
09-08-2006, 17:46:42
Err... my understanding is that you want stock to be ballanced.. which is OK.

You want the people who donate money to the POS to get their money back.. OK.

You want it to be set up so that stock gets dividends.. which is what you want the Corp Treasurery to be used for.. I differ, but it is a reasonable wish.

But the point being is that people have to donate time to this POS, which is something different. And I think that they should get recognition of that. Maybe not hugely unballanced recognition, but some.

Jon Miller

HelloKitty
09-08-2006, 17:56:56
Originally posted by JM^3
Err... my understanding is that you want stock to be ballanced.. which is OK.

Yes

You want the people who donate money to the POS to get their money back.. OK.

Yes.

You want it to be set up so that stock gets dividends.. which is what you want the Corp Treasurery to be used for.. I differ, but it is a reasonable wish.

No. Go read what I posted, don't just skim.


But the point being is that people have to donate time to this POS, which is something different. And I think that they should get recognition of that. Maybe not hugely unballanced recognition, but some.

Jon Miller

And the recognition should be the corp?

If you aren't even for giving out divedends why does it matter who has the stock? What would these people gain by having more stock if they are valueless? I mean, other than complete control over any votes required in eve.

In the setup I proposed there is no reason why the people who are running the POS couldn't be paid a salary for doing so from the corp, in factt eh corp can vote on it and even set a pay out/bill system.

Although the two times I have brought this sort of thing up in corp chat I was told the reason to build a POS is just because it will be fun. Should we just give away the corp or a salary to all the people who have ratted? Or how about all the people who have x rating with mission agents?

HelloKitty
09-08-2006, 17:58:22
Oh and there are 10 question marks in the first part of my big post, none of them have been answered any time I have asked them.

Havoc
09-08-2006, 18:07:15
[i]
Personally I think 3 is the best option and for distibution of the stock everyone who donated to the original founding of the corp should get an equal share of the 1000.

In this way the stock could actually be used the only way it would really be useful for our corp, for voting. Right now using the stock for creation of funds just screws too many people if kept within the corp, and would never make any money if public.

This way any alliance, creation of stock, change in corp structure, etc could be voted on by the holding members.

A point could be decided for when newer members would become "vested" in the corp, maybe say 6 months from join date. At that point The current holding members would vote to create X new stocks to give that person a share in the corp. Alternatly if a newer member wanted to they could always just buy a portion from a current stockholder.

If in the future we start paying divs on profit this system would treat all contributing members equally without hurting new members.

This setup would also allow a simple transition mechanism if the corp ever goes public with a defined share % for initial stock creation and sales. [/B]

If one could buy the stock from one of the "founding members" then wouldn't the stock represent something finanical and give a financial advantage to those who "founded" the guild?

I dont agree with splitting the shares between the founding members at all personally. Actually I'm fine if we don't use the shares for anything at all and just keep them dead like they are now. I don't see why people who just happened to be friends at the onset of CKU should obtain all the power, it seems like nepotism in a way.

Venom
09-08-2006, 18:08:09
Under kitty's plan, the people donating the money to build the POS gain a stronger CORP which is good for everyone. They'll get their money back from the profits made by the POS, then the CORP decides what to do with profits after that based off of voting from the stocks.

For ex: the corp wants someone to have a Titan, so the corp helps that person buy skills and the ship and whatever else.

It's a team effort to make the Corp stronger. It shouldn't be a plan to let everyone who is already rich get richer.

Havoc
09-08-2006, 18:10:18
Originally posted by Venom
It's a team effort to make the Corp stronger. It shouldn't be a plan to let everyone who is already rich get richer.

Finally someone says it!

As far as the POS I agree Kitty that maybe it shouldn't be involved with the stock at all. Everyone who is interested in helping with and joining in the POS has joined that site that Nav set up. Why don't those of us that want to help with the POS and subsequently benefit from it, make our venture independent of the guild. We can work out financial issues with those who want to help but don't have the funds between ourselves without worrying about the impact on everyone in the guild.

What is wrong with just separating the stocks from finances altogether and dividing the stocks evenly and having a true democracey?

HelloKitty
09-08-2006, 18:30:01
Originally posted by Havoc
If one could buy the stock from one of the "founding members" then wouldn't the stock represent something finanical and give a financial advantage to those who "founded" the guild?

I dont agree with splitting the shares between the founding members at all personally. Actually I'm fine if we don't use the shares for anything at all and just keep them dead like they are now. I don't see why people who just happened to be friends at the onset of CKU should obtain all the power, it seems like nepotism in a way.

Its not just founding members, its those and anyone in the corp for 6+ months.

If a member joined today and in 6 months was still in the corp, they should get a share of the corp.

For example, lets say we have 20 members who have been in the corp 6+ months or were founding.

We have 1k shares.

Each of those people would receive 50 shares. In effect they are vested in the corp and get a permnement vote.

Next month lets say 2 people hit the 6 month mark.

The corp prints up 100 new shares and each of those members now have an equal say in votes as all the other vested members.


Now lets say I decide to go join a hardcore pvp corp run by 12 year olds with acne problems.

I am vested in the corp so those shares are mine. But I no longer have an interest in them since we just use them for voting. I could sell those stocks to any of the members who want to buy out my portion. Or if the vested members all vote for it, the corp itself could buy back my stocks and use those for future 6+ month members.

What is wrong with just separating the stocks from finances altogether and dividing the stocks evenly and having a true democracey?

Thats exactly what i am saying. But this is eve, and I think the 6 months invested in the corp as a member is a good cutoff, we don't want to just give stock to anyone who joins, since that stock can never be retrieved unless the player gives it up.

As for the finances, this doesn't use money at all, but gives a solid foundation for if we ever do go public. It would mean we have a set system that is simple, functional, and fair.

Centara Fugue
09-08-2006, 18:37:43
I play these games to have fun. I'm in the group that thinks it's neat to make a POS just because I haven't tried it yet. I don't care if we do it or not all that much, because if we do, yay, but if we don't, I'll go try some other thing I haven't tried. I'm in agreement with paying people who contribute either monetarily or with their time (or both) to the POS effort in some way. Those people could have been running missions during that time they spent (or will spend) doing POS stuff, so they should be compensated. Kitty's simple paying them back seems the simplest and best way to do that.

I don't care about power. Some others of you may, but I'm up for whatever. I'm not interested in politics, which is why I'll be moving far away from DC as soon as I get the chance (people around here care way too much about politics). I plan to help defend the POS if it gets attacked, because I or others of my friends in the corp helped make it and it will presumably benefit me in some way for it to exist. I'm not sure how it will benefit me, but that's the topic under discussion, so my 2 cents is that it goes toward funding something that helps everybody in the corp, new and old, equally. That could be just handing out an even share of the profits to everybody. Aside from defending the POS, I also plan to help move goods around some, like fuel and POS products that we create, if my help is needed.

I don't give a rats what we do with the stock. I mentioned hating politics, and using stocks to weight votes in corporate decisions stinks of politics to me (no offense to whoever had that idea). I'm in favor of keeping things informal as long as we can. We have more of a small-town dynamic now with the number of members we have, and I'd like to keep it that way. Just because we're called a corporation doesn't mean we have to have a stiff corporate structure. We're just a bunch of friends who like to play the same game and we're contributing to a group effort.

I don't know how to properly compensate those who give more to the cause of the POS. Maybe we shouldn't worry about that until we actually see whether it will be profitable to us. I have the feeling we won't settle on something that upsets somebody if it can be helped.

HelloKitty
09-08-2006, 18:42:55
Oh and branching off and making a POS completely seperate of the corp, thats an option if you all want to, but don't take my concern to mean that I am against the corp having a POS.

I am against doing things without a well thought out plan, and the ideas posted to combine the POS with stock etc were just plain bad.


We could always do an ISS model for the POS.

Set up a dummy Corp. Build the POS under that corps name.

All the people who wanted to participate can pay whatever portion they want. CKU will (when we ahve the money) pay each of these members back for what they put in.

50% of the stock for the POS corp goes to CKU (not members, but CKU itself).

The other 50% of the stocks go to the people who financed the POS creation, divided by proportion of donation.

All profits from the POS corp are paid to shareholders with a set % of the profits going towards future buildings etc.

That way;

the people who put the money forward in the first place divide up half the profit with almost no risk since the corp will pay them back. These are also the people who would maintain the POS

The corp, which reimburses those players, makes a profit off those stocks, and can use that to pay back the original loans and then build up the corp account.


Any plans to expand the dummy corp (such a future POS) would be decided by a vote, where because of stock distribution CKU would ahve 50% of the say (which would be voted on by all vested CKU members) and the people who put the money out would ahve the other 50% of the say (plus their portion of the CKU say naturally.


I think this would eb a good way to let the corp be involved, let the people who want to pay for and run a POS gain the most benes, and help the corp at teh same time.

Havoc
09-08-2006, 18:46:40
Yeah seriously, I'm tired of the arguing, I too play this game to have fun, I don't even see why the stocks are an issue. I also enjoy the small-town dynamics Centara speaks of.
On the other hand i'm not going to pay 10% taxes to have no say. Right now I can solo make 10% more money and have the same benefit since I can always log into CG chat.

Hello Kitty will only be happy if we carry out her idea with all its details. And just continues to insult other people for posting anything different. If you're working towards a solution Kitty maybe you should try being a bit nicer, and work with people not against them.

HelloKitty
09-08-2006, 18:52:55
Where am I insulting people?

Lurker the Second
09-08-2006, 18:58:18
I'm at a loss to see how anyone gets "screwed", Kitty. I think maybe there are a bunch of mixed messages and crossed concerns floating around in the posts on this topic, so maybe it will help to start from the beginning.

Fundamentally, what is the purpose of the POS? How does it benefit the members of the corporation?

As I see it, if all we have are mining arrays, it does two things -- provides a potential source of income and a safespot/base of operations for anyone operating in that area. All corporate members, regardless of contribution, benefit from the latter.

As for the former, my assumption is the endeavor is not being started with an eye to making personal income, but rather as a springboard for supporting a greater corporate infrastructure, i.e., lab facilities, additional moon mining operations, blueprint purchases, noob support, etc. All of those things, of course, facilitate each members' ability to make personal income, but it is crazy to think we'll be paying dividends for a good while.

So what should new members of the corporation expect when they join? Access and support, but not ownership, at least until they are able to buy into it. That DOES NOT mean we can't establish by-laws of a sort that give every member of the corporation the right to vote on things (what those "things" are would need to be discussed).

I think what some people are worried about is whether "sweat equity" will be recognized. It can and should be, of course. There is a minimal amount of sweat that every corporate member should be expected to contribute each month to help cover operating costs (think of it as your contribution for having access and support), but efforts beyond that should either be compensated by isk or stock.

An important by-product of this is if ownership is measured by investment, you have a means of assessing the proper buyout for someone if they leave the corp.

I know many people will think I'm overlawyering this, but imo it is critical to assess these issues now if there is any possibility that this corporation will continue to grow (and I hope it does).

Lurker the Second
09-08-2006, 19:10:12
And by the way, one of the reasons it is important to sort these things out now is to maintain Centara's ideal -- just play the game to have fun. The last thing I want to see is one group forcing things down another group. Baby steps is a good way to avoid that.

HelloKitty
09-08-2006, 19:13:17
Originally posted by Lurker the Second
I'm at a loss to see how anyone gets "screwed", Kitty. I think maybe there are a bunch of mixed messages and crossed concerns floating around in the posts on this topic, so maybe it will help to start from the beginning.

None of this would be an issue if people didn't start trying to tye in stocks and control of the corp exclusivly based on a POS.

Lets use you as a hypothetical example.

Lets say you decide you want nothing to do with a POS. You don't donate to it, you don't want to work it, you don't want anythng to do with it. You have earned a huge potion of what the corp has made thus far, but that doesn't matter, your contribution is irrelevent if you don't support the POS, because the corp would be given to the people who pay for the POS, with a token amount of stock, if any, going to you.

How is that not getting screwed?


Fundamentally, what is the purpose of the POS? How does it benefit the members of the corporation?

As I see it, if all we have are mining arrays, it does two things -- provides a potential source of income and a safespot/base of operations for anyone operating in that area. All corporate members, regardless of contribution, benefit from the latter.

As for the former, my assumption is the endeavor is not being started with an eye to making personal income, but rather as a springboard for supporting a greater corporate infrastructure, i.e., lab facilities, additional moon mining operations, blueprint purchases, noob support, etc. All of those things, of course, facilitate each members' ability to make personal income, but it is crazy to think we'll be paying dividends for a good while.

Then why should the people who put the most money towards a POS get the vast majority of the stock, complete control of the company, and completely maginalize all other members and future members? If its not about divedends from a POS why should stock be the payment for the 3 or 4 people who will pay for a POS?

So what should new members of the corporation expect when they join? Access and support, but not ownership, at least until they are able to buy into it. That DOES NOT mean we can't establish by-laws of a sort that give every member of the corporation the right to vote on things (what those "things" are would need to be discussed). Under the shares based on POS idea, all new members would be out of luck unless they wanted to buy into the company. Under the shares based on 6+ months all members would be treated equally. No need to buy into anything at all.

I think what some people are worried about is whether "sweat equity" will be recognized. It can and should be, of course. There is a minimal amount of sweat that every corporate member should be expected to contribute each month to help cover operating costs (think of it as your contribution for having access and support), but efforts beyond that should either be compensated by isk or stock.

Again, if stock pays no dividends and is only used for voting, why stock?

An important by-product of this is if ownership is measured by investment, you have a means of assessing the proper buyout for someone if they leave the corp.

Thats a point, however why use one single project and ignore 8+ months of work everyone else has done?

And how would this assess a proper buyout? The stock is only worth what people will pay for it. The choice to sell would always be on the owner of the stock, you can't force a buyout.

I know many people will think I'm overlawyering this, but imo it is critical to assess these issues now if there is any possibility that this corporation will continue to grow (and I hope it does).

I agree, and am trying to propose ideas to facilitate this.

HelloKitty
09-08-2006, 19:15:30
Originally posted by Lurker the Second
And by the way, one of the reasons it is important to sort these things out now is to maintain Centara's ideal -- just play the game to have fun. The last thing I want to see is one group forcing things down another group. Baby steps is a good way to avoid that.

That sums up the core point of what I am saying.

Equal representation to all vested members vs complete control by 3-5 members.

Lurker the Second
09-08-2006, 19:32:06
For the most part, it is easy enough to separate ownership and voting. As an initial premise, pretty much the only thing people would vote on are the officers and directors and a some number of other "important" issues (go to war, etc.). No one wants to or needs to vote on day to day operational decisions.

Hypothetically, why would anyone who does not have a capital investment in the corporation care what the corp does with its income or new capital if those decisions don't affect their gameplay?

Lurker the Second
09-08-2006, 19:34:18
And again, I believe all corporate members, after a certain period, should have the opportunity to buy into the corp IF THEY WANT TO. Procedures can be set up for that.

Also, I personally believe one of the corporate goals should be to eliminate the tax altogether.

Venom
09-08-2006, 19:38:15
We all have a capital investment in the corp. We all pay taxes to it.

HelloKitty
09-08-2006, 19:44:43
How do you propose separating voting? Everyone doesn't come here, most of us don't come to the new place, even if we made a poll here there is no way to track who voted. The in game system only allows for votes based on shares, no changes otherwise.

Ok how about I just ask this.

Why give stock based on contribution to the POS?

What do they gain from it?

Not money, eveyone keeps saying there will be no dividends.

Anything other than a larger portion of any official votes?

But if there is an alternate way to vote (which I don't see happening, but go for it) the stocks are worthless in every way.

What do the majority of the members lose?

Any voice in official votes.



And what about if a new member comes in. They will never have a voice in the corp unless they buy stock from another member. Not the best way to grow a corp.

What if some of the members who didn't donate come up with an idea that the few big donators are against but the majority of the corp is for. I would say that has a huge effect on their gameplay.


Seriously, what am I missing?

How does giving stock to the people who pay for the POS help the corp as opposed to a few people?

Beta1
09-08-2006, 19:46:21
I cant be arsed to read most of that but I think I basically agree with Kitty (bizarely)

the corp stocks and the POS costs are two seperate issues.

I dont really care what happens to the Corp shares. I'm happy enough for you two to stay sitting on them. If Mraal runs off with the corp funds I'll just have to hunt him down and gank him. (and anyway I could make that cash in a week)

As for the POS I'm happy to contribute whatever is needed to the costs and for the corp to take the profits. If other people want to get the corp to eventually refund the ISk they put in thats cool but I'm not really interested in getting it back. I'm just into for the fun.

Hell if it will solve the problem I'll gift the corp 250mill and that will cover the POS modules and the whole arguement become academic.

HelloKitty
09-08-2006, 19:49:25
Oh and how about this illustration.

I paid for the jump clone contract.

Since I used my money 100% I should get 100% of the stock for the company.

The contract made the corp stronger and gave us a relationship with a big established alliance.

Since the idea is we should base giving out shares on one single investment we may as well go back to the first one.

I assume that the investment people will have no problem with this?

If any of you want to buy into the company send me an offer. Nav and Mraal go ahead and send me all the shares back.



Sound stupid? Sounds exactly like what is being proposed.

Lurker the Second
09-08-2006, 19:53:16
@ Venom: Yes, and I agree that should be recognized. As I said in my first post on this subject, I would be perfectly happy distributing shares to everyone equally who is currently a member of the corporation, regardless of contribution to date. That even goes for the guys who have been members for a week.

Let's say we issue one share to each of 20 members. Let's say the corporation's value is $100,000,000, consisting at this point entirely of cash and the costs of the charter. The shares will be valued at $5,000,000 apiece in that scenario. Now, if we need to raise $500,000,000 we simply issue and distribute another 100 shares. Each member will have the opportunity to buy 5 shares for $25,000,000 total. If someone does not want to or cannot do it, that's fine, then the other members who have purchased a full allotment will have the right, in equal parts, to purchase the balance of the offering.

Havoc
09-08-2006, 19:57:32
I can't wait until the next Lemming Leap.

HelloKitty
09-08-2006, 20:00:59
Ok if you wanted to do something like that fine. Why? Because creating shares requires a majority vote. So if the members agree to add to it fine.

But that still doesn't do anything about the buyout value you were talking about, that is only for future stock releases.

But this also links stock ownership with the corp finances which some people don't want to do. At this point its still easier for the corp to just pay back people who invest for the corp. At some point in the future the corp can be self sufficient, but now it isn't.

The reason I said 6 months is because at that point people are likely going to stay with the corp, continue playing the game, and unlikely to throw hissy fits and leave or just use the stocks to try to mess up votes.

Lurker the Second
09-08-2006, 20:07:03
Originally posted by Beta1


the corp stocks and the POS costs are two seperate issues.


Beta, that is fundamentally wrong.

Like I said, I know people think I am overlawyering this, but if you don't do it now, you'll have a royal mess later when we have 50 members and a half a dozen POSes and are actually making enough isk to consider paying dividends. It is bad enough now when we are basically starting from scratch.

As for voting difficulties, come on, be serious. If someone sends a corporate eve-mail and says you have a week to vote on something and go to CG or that other place and you can't figure it out, then you've got a problem.

And Kitty I don't get your point about you paying for the jump clone contract. The corp should have paid for it, and if it didn't you should be repaid. In fact I thought you had repaid yourself some isk for something, but I dunno.

In my scenario, the people who have already contributed the most to the corp by way of taxes are giving up the most, not getting the most.

Venom
09-08-2006, 20:11:56
The corp repaid kitty, which is her point I think. The corp should repay everyone the upstart POS money they use to buy the POS.

Then, once that happens we can decide what to do with Corp profits. Buy another POS, recruit new members. Dedicated an alt to ship building and selling, etc, etc, etc.

If we do things this investment way right from the get go, the corp will never be able to do anything again as it will never have money to do anything, just the 10% tax that has taken us 6 months to get 125 million. It will be a corp in name only. Basically, it will just be the CG chat channel, and as others have said, we don't need to pay 10% tax for that.

Beta1
09-08-2006, 20:14:22
I think thats what I meant venom - well put

Lurker the Second
09-08-2006, 20:16:35
Well I guess my disagreement with that stems from that fact that I think capital investments should be made through capital contributions. I'm willing to take a risk and make a capital contribution. If the POS gets blowed up, I lose value. Will the corp still pay me back if it's a loan?

Venom
09-08-2006, 20:16:55
And we can decide weather or not we vote by shares, and how to break up those shares, at a later date.

Havoc
09-08-2006, 20:17:16
Originally posted by HelloKitty
The reason I said 6 months is because at that point people are likely going to stay with the corp, continue playing the game, and unlikely to throw hissy fits and leave or just use the stocks to try to mess up votes.

I know you think you're being clever by taking a personal shot at me, but I find you're behavior most immature. In my opinion your more of a detriment to the funloving spirit of the corp than you are a benefit.

Venom
09-08-2006, 20:18:05
Originally posted by Lurker the Second
Well I guess my disagreement with that stems from that fact that I think capital investments should be made through capital contributions. I'm willing to take a risk and make a capital contribution. If the POS gets blowed up, I lose value. Will the corp still pay me back if it's a loan?

The Corp should pay back any loan, whether or not the POS survives. If someone wants to straight up donate money to the Corp, without any payback, then they can certainly do that as well.

HelloKitty
09-08-2006, 20:19:56
Originally posted by Lurker the Second
[B]Beta, that is fundamentally wrong.

Like I said, I know people think I am overlawyering this, but if you don't do it now, you'll have a royal mess later when we have 50 members and a half a dozen POSes and are actually making enough isk to consider paying dividends. It is bad enough now when we are basically starting from scratch.


The way you want to do it would completely destroy any chance of anyone but the big few investors for being a part things when the corp can pay out. Once we get to the point where the corp is self sufficient and can pay for everything up front by itself, there won't be any new stock, and new members or members who didn't loan the corp money early on will never be able to get stock. Unless the couple people who hold the majority of the stock decide to lower their stock value for no reason whatsoever.

As for voting difficulties, come on, be serious. If someone sends a corporate eve-mail and says you have a week to vote on something and go to CG or that other place and you can't figure it out, then you've got a problem.

Yeah that always works. Thats why all the corp plans that we tried to make in Feb and march came together so quickly and perfectly, because everyone came right out. Good thing it worked or we would be arguing to this day about how to handle stocks, POS, industry, and corp direction.

And Kitty I don't get your point about you paying for the jump clone contract. The corp should have paid for it, and if it didn't you should be repaid. In fact I thought you had repaid yourself some isk for something, but I dunno.

Come on lurker, you aren't that thick, think it through. It is identical to what you are saying.

In my scenario, the people who have already contributed the most to the corp by way of taxes are giving up the most, not getting the most.

By your way the people who are putting forth money for this one project are getting the most and everyone else is getting little or nothing.

By my scenario everyone gets the same thing.

If in the future we decide to start payin dividends we can start issuing more stock for investments. But until that time issuing worthless stock only limits what we can do in the future and ruins growth and investment potential.

HelloKitty
09-08-2006, 20:25:58
Originally posted by Havoc
I know you think you're being clever by taking a personal shot at me, but I find you're behavior most immature. In my opinion your more of a detriment to the funloving spirit of the corp than you are a benefit.

Look, if you want to throw a hissy fit and quit the corp because Nav pissed you off (yes, mean old Nav for those who missed it) because he was for building a pos feel free.

But you need to realize when you pull shit like that you are saying you cannot be trusted or relied on in any way.

If you react like that to WILL OF ALL PEOPLE over a topic like that, who can rely on you for anything serious?

And yes, the 6 month rule is specifically aimed at 2 types of people.

1- Those who join breifly and quit the corp or the game.

2- People like you who are a detrement to the corp and unreliable.


We don't need people like that voting on corp policy, having access to any of our corp votes or info.

Now if a person like that could settle down, rejoin and last 6 months before another fit, thats another story.

Havoc
09-08-2006, 20:37:11
Kitty,

Please don't pretend like you know what transpired.

I play this game to have fun, not to be berated by a loathsome person with low self-confidence.

Anyway I'm putting you on ignore kitty.

Lurker the Second
09-08-2006, 20:38:51
Originally posted by HelloKitty


If in the future we decide to start payin dividends we can start issuing more stock for investments.

Then why not do it now, while everything is cleaner and the sacrifices the older players are offering to the newer players are more manageable?

Originally posted by HelloKitty
But until that time issuing worthless stock only limits what we can do in the future and ruins growth and investment potential.

That is flat out wrong in every single respect. First, the stock is not worthless. Assume the corp disbands. The assets will be liquidated and the shareholders will receive their pro rata value. So the stock clearly has value (at least until everything gets blowed up or spent on exotic dancers and quafe). Second, it doesn't limit anything. If there is another capital project, the corp is perfectly free to raise new capital or utilize existing corporate funds. In fact, structuring this as a loan is what ruins future growth and investment potential because you have to pay the damn things back. So where do you think the income goes then?

HelloKitty
09-08-2006, 20:42:38
Originally posted by Havoc
Kitty,

Please don't pretend like you know what transpired.

I'm sorry your dad wanted a son, and all he got was a self-pitying dike daughter, but you don't need to take it out on the rest of us. I play this game to have fun, not to be berated by some loathesome person with no self-confidence.

Anyway I'm putting you on ignore kitty.

Thank you for proving my point.

HelloKitty
09-08-2006, 20:50:37
Originally posted by Lurker the Second
Then why not do it now, while everything is cleaner and the sacrifices the older players are offering to the newer players are more manageable?

On what profits? And I don't think anyone wants to start doing it now.


That is flat out wrong in every single respect. First, the stock is not worthless. Assume the corp disbands. The assets will be liquidated and the shareholders will receive their pro rata value. So the stock clearly has value (at least until everything gets blowed up or spent on exotic dancers and quafe). Second, it doesn't limit anything. If there is another capital project, the corp is perfectly free to raise new capital or utilize existing corporate funds. In fact, structuring this as a loan is what ruins future growth and investment potential because you have to pay the damn things back. So where do you think the income goes then?

The corp liquidation thing is true, but that is hardly an arguement for the whole thing.

Yeah they are free to issue more stock, but at the point where the corp is profitable enough to build things on its own, and pay dividends enough to go public, what is the point? Why would the top owners vote to drasticly lower their monthly divedends and thier vote share when the corp can do what it wants without doing so?


If people want to go to a system like that, fine, but a buisness plan needs to be made, a set distribution of the current stock needs to be made, a set date far enough in advance for the newer members to be able to activly participate needs to be made for the IPO.

Honestly, I am just trying to protect the majority of the members for the long term.

Lurker the Second
09-08-2006, 21:11:30
On what profits? Huh?

And I don't think anyone wants to start doing it now.

So from now on we take a vote and then have a discussion afterwards in order to decide that everyone has already decided?

Yeah they are free to issue more stock, but at the point where the corp is profitable enough to build things on its own, and pay dividends enough to go public, what is the point? Why would the top owners vote to drasticly lower their monthly divedends and thier vote share when the corp can do what it wants without doing so?

The current shareholders do it for the same reason as in real life -- to raise capital in order to grow and expand and, hopefully, become even more profitable.

I feel I have to repeat this part: I believe every member of the corporation should have the opportunity to invest in the corporation if they choose to do so. New members can be accommodated in many ways; for example, discounted buy-ins, payments over time, etc. And, again, there is no reason you HAVE to tie votes on all issues to shares.

HelloKitty
09-08-2006, 21:19:40
Originally posted by Lurker the Second
Huh?

On what profits? The 10% we make from missions? What are we paying out from if we start now.



So from now on we take a vote and then have a discussion afterwards in order to decide that everyone has already decided?

Ok my turn. Huh? What have we voted on?



The current shareholders do it for the same reason as in real life -- to raise capital in order to grow and expand and, hopefully, become even more profitable. and as in real like they don't do so unless they need to. If they can generate all the needed capital in house why would they lower thier relative worth?

I feel I have to repeat this part: I believe every member of the corporation should have the opportunity to invest in the corporation if they choose to do so. New members can be accommodated in many ways; for example, discounted buy-ins, payments over time, etc. And, again, there is no reason you HAVE to tie votes on all issues to shares.

Then an alternate plan for voting that is viable needs to be invented, outside the in game system I don't see anythng else working.

And as for accommodating new members, those are potential ideas, flesh them out. I have put out several complete plans. What specific methods would your system use? Not "we could do this or maybe this if we wanted to". How can we be sure that the corp members all have a fair go at what all of us have put effort into for 8 months?

Asher
09-08-2006, 21:37:39
I like Kitty's plan best...

Centara Fugue
09-08-2006, 22:04:17
Stocks are used for voting in EVE? Could someone explain how that works? Are they also used for distributing corporate earnings (by paying dividends)? If the game already has a system set up that works, it makes sense to use it.

Then again, is that the problem? Corporate earnings are tied to decision making by the in-game system, meaning we would have people getting more say in what happens and more return on corporate endeavors just because they own more stock, and not because they participate in things like keeping up the POS. Is that correct? If that's the case, the in-game system is flawed and not really what we're looking for. I'm not sure how to measure a person's involvement with doing corporate things, but that person should certainly be paid according to how much he does to contribute, not by how much stock he can buy.

I guess I would like a post that clearly spells out how the in-game stocks and voting work. I don't want to look it up.