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Lurker the Second
06-07-2006, 17:49:33
There have been some rumblings lately in corp chat about CKU joining an alliance. Personally, I've always considered that as a goal, so the concept gets no argument from me. I am concerned that the timing might be a bit early for that right now, but it's a fair topic for discussion and hence this thread.

First, we need to identify why people want to be in 0.0 space and whether alliances can add anything to that purpose. If all you want to do is rat, then you can do that now in regions controlled by alliances who do not shoot neutrals. Huzzah, Big Blue, ISS and some others operate on a neutrals are welcome policy. The biggest risk there, as I see it, is if you are not in the alliance you might not get backup as quickly if hostiles seek to engage you. Also, if you go into space controlled by neutral-friendly alliances, be sure to check whether any systems are off limits because there are often a few like that. Apart from complexes, which are a different issue, I am not sure that ratting in 0.0 space has a higher isk earning rate than level 4 mission running, but a good way to find out is to visit some open 0.0 space and find out.

Complexes can earn a lot of isk, but the good ones are farmed by the controlling alliances and the loot used for alliance purposes. The farmers earn a lot of isk also, but no new alliance corp is going to be given access to a 10/10 complex, and I am pretty sure the competition for other complexes is fairly intense even if access is on a first-come basis.

Ok, so let's say we're satisfied that we can make isk in 0.0 even now. Most alliances prefer, if not require, that you maintain at least a medium POS to help them claim or maintain sovereignty in the space. Apart from the start-up costs (not sure, maybe 1-200 million isk), weekly maintenance costs are around 45 million or so. We will need dedicated mining, refining and hauling to keep the thing going. Is everyone committed to that?

Not all of alliance life is mining and counting isk. You have to fight, camp gates, endure horrific lag in fleet battles, lose ships and modules and deal with alliance politics. Teamspeak is a must.

I have no problem with any of that and in fact look forward to giving it a try. But my question is are we ready? My belief is that each established corp member ought to have somewhere around 500 million isk and be able to use tech 2 weapons and the corp ought to have a billion isk before making the jump. I suspect a little less than half of that isk would go to alliance entry fees and the costs of a POS and a few week's supply of fuel. I think a healthy reserve is mandatory, both from the corporate and individual perspectives, because the last thing you want to do is make a move, get blown up on day 1, and have to hightail it back to empire to rejuvenate the wallets.

Anyway, there are many other issues that need to be addressed, but let's use this to get the ball rolling and a sense of the consensus.

Centara Fugue
06-07-2006, 18:17:27
In EVE, the things I enjoy are dabbling around with different combat ship setups (and support setups, but used for group combat) and trying them out in missions of my own either alone or with help, or helping others with their missions. I find the tactics you need to learn to survive the missions and do them faster interesting, and I'm only just scratching the surface of how group tactics work. I've tried mining and couriering, and of the two, I have enjoyed couriering more, but I might like to try group mining (the solo mining just wasn't all that interesting). Even the couriering wan't interesting for its own sake, but for the risk involved (when I was trying to do it through lower-security space) and the profits to be made by examining what I was carrying for someone else and instead picking up loads of that item and carrying it myself so I would make the profit.

I haven't really done complexes since I was just a wee shaver, and they are doubtless interesting too, especially in a group. That's just another area in which the group tactics would be interesting to explore.

With all that said, my own personal goals for playing EVE don't really require me to go to low-sec space. I get to do all the stuff I really want to do without having all the commitment of maintaining a starbase or doing anything compulsory (patrolling, mining).

I like making money, but I like spending it on ships and components. All I think I stand to gain from joining an alliance is a chance to get podded by some pirate prick with nothing better to do, and a way to sink more time into the game for the sake of holding and defending the 0 space. Why do that when I could just hang out and do the stuff I like in high-sec space?

::: Carebear out :::

JM^3
06-07-2006, 18:39:00
Random pirates aren't much of a threat in the Alliance empires (the ones that hold considerable space).

Depending on the Alliance, fleet combat can be rare for long periods of time, and most don't require people to take part in it (although the more successful alliances are those that have members that take part in fleet combat, otherwise you can't hold territory).

Now, you will probably more likely run into pirates in ISS space (since they don't actively hunt pirates, and are 'neutral'). Big Blue active removes pirates from their space, so you probably won't run into anymore than you would in low sec empire space (probably less).

The POS requirement is fairly common. That comes to another common requirement, and that is that the corp is 'decent sized' where decent size can be anywhere from 40 to 100 members. For 100 members, maintaining a POS is a lot easier than for 10 (or whatever we have active).

A lot of members of the Alliances, even the successful ones like BOB, only take part in fleet battles for the big ones.. which rarely happen unless you join an aggressive Alliance.

Now I agree, it might be too early for us to go to 0 space, but I wanted to start talking about it, because it might take a while to do.

And as far as it goes, we could easily be a roving band in 'neutral' 0 space as we are now.

Jon Miller

JM^3
06-07-2006, 18:41:02
I have heard that Kali is introducing more Alliance Empire stuff, like the ability to place gate defenses and sentry guns and the like.

This will probably go towards making the big Alliance Empires more like empire space. (it is already a lot less lawless then it use to be).

Jon Miller

JM^3
06-07-2006, 18:44:36
As far as complexes go, I have heard that the 'neutral' corp RAT (which shares a lot of members in common with the RA which has recently lost a lot of territory (all?)) farms complexs all over the galaxy. Now this pisses of those who control the territory those complexes are in.. and they get into lots of PVP (and are disliked, because it is claimed that they don't fight fair), but complexes can be ran even if you aren't in the alliance.

Jon Miller
(RA and RAT are mostly (entirely?) Russians..)

Beta1
06-07-2006, 20:04:21
Originally posted by Lurker the Second

Complexes can earn a lot of isk, but the good ones are farmed by the controlling alliances and the loot used for alliance purposes. The farmers earn a lot of isk also, but no new alliance corp is going to be given access to a 10/10 complex, and I am pretty sure the competition for other complexes is fairly intense even if access is on a first-come basis.


LOL, given our performance on that 6/10 complex I think we better steer well clear of a 10/10.

I dont think we need quite that much cash - what we do need is to get the corp income up a bit. Thats going to happen anyway as more people get up to the lvl 3/4 missions but maybe running as few corp operations would be a good idea. E.G. we get as few people together, stick the corp tax rate up to maximum for a few hours and run a few level 4s. Should stick several million in the corp coffers.

As for POS - we could setup one without an alliance. They can be deployed in empire low sec although that ups the running costs a bit. Still if we planned things right in terms a medium POS moon mining should make a safe profit. In empire low sec you can bring in dreads so a well setup POS is almost indestructable. Although I know some people are getting into ice mining the market prices are pretty competitive and I think you could run a POS off the market and still make money. All it would need is someone with a indy to drop by once every couple of days (which shouldnt be too hard to manage with our resident carebear). As for cash a medium POS is about 300-400mill fully fitted, I could almost pay for one myself. Really the hardest part would be finding somewhere to put it.

Alliance wise I think the smart thing to do would be to get on friendly terms with a few but not actually join one until we get a POS deployed so we have a regular income.

JM^3
06-07-2006, 20:35:14
Mraal can ice mine.. I know we shouldn't rely completely on him but just want'ed to point out that we do have skills in the corp.

JM

Skanky Burns
07-07-2006, 02:53:47
I'm am certainly not ready for any alliance stuff. My personal wealth is nearing 45mil...

If we are really serious in getting this alliance stuff done, we should at least have some people who can specialise in certain tasks, like mining or refining or production or such.

That said, I'm developing my refining skills so as to get reduced wastage amounts from reprocessing stuff. So far I've got basic refining to 5 and learning adv refining.

JM^3
07-07-2006, 03:09:54
I just got up to 3.8m, and I have lost stuff worth ~24m in the last few days.

JM

Mraal
07-07-2006, 03:29:53
I'd be interested in making a move to low-sec or 0 space. I agree, if we look around we could very well find an ok low-sec moon to put a POS on - it could be a good start, at least. We have several indies in the corp, so it should be ok to supply it. We should be cautious about the ice market, though, what with the recent changes in ice fields.
On that note, anyone want to start surveying moons? I'd be up for it.

JM^3
07-07-2006, 05:46:22
From what I have read, the most needed thing is 0 space experience.

JM

Beta1
07-07-2006, 06:07:41
Originally posted by Mraal
I'd be interested in making a move to low-sec or 0 space. I agree, if we look around we could very well find an ok low-sec moon to put a POS on - it could be a good start, at least. We have several indies in the corp, so it should be ok to supply it. We should be cautious about the ice market, though, what with the recent changes in ice fields.
On that note, anyone want to start surveying moons? I'd be up for it.

I have a few skills to fininsh off but I was thinking of picking up surveying shortly.

Lurker the Second
07-07-2006, 13:55:23
I haven't studied it in detail, but I have gotten the impression that profitable moon mining is rare, at least in empire space. By "profitable", I mean making enough isk to justify the time spent attending to the POS and dealing with the mining stuff. Has anyone really looked into that carefully?

Lurker the Second
07-07-2006, 14:04:50
Also, when I said I think we should have about 500 million isk in our wallets to make a move, I recognize that likely won't be the case across the board. I just think it's a decent goal for the core group of people who have been flying battleships and doing level 4 missions.

I'm also realizing that my e-war skills suck and would have to be trained to be ready for the PvP environment. You don't need them for mission running and I don't have them beyond maybe a few rudiments.

Beta1
07-07-2006, 15:23:41
Originally posted by Lurker the Second
I haven't studied it in detail, but I have gotten the impression that profitable moon mining is rare, at least in empire space. By "profitable", I mean making enough isk to justify the time spent attending to the POS and dealing with the mining stuff. Has anyone really looked into that carefully?

it is if you just mine. You need to stick a refinery on it and convert the products to the materials needed to make T2 stuff.

So ideally we need a T2 BPO as well but thats some way down the line.

I just think it would be cool to own a station.

Lurker the Second
07-07-2006, 15:40:03
Oh, I agree. I'm just not sure about owning it in empire.

Mraal
08-07-2006, 15:57:32
Maybe in a week or two I'll start randomly surveying low-sec moons and see if I find anything.
I do have a T2 BPO that we could start production on if we can get the right moon. Right now I'm just making crappy BPCs from it . . .

JM^3
10-07-2006, 14:45:21
Snotty seemed to be in favor of heading towards this as well..

JM

Beta1
10-07-2006, 21:55:59
just met a guy from Bravehearts (BOTB). Well I say met more like I just crashed my freighter into his dreadnought. They are taking their corp (and 10 capital ships) out to 0.0 in the next few months to start a new alliance in deep 0.0. He mentioned they would be looking for partners in a few months for POS/0.0 operations.

Might be worth keeping an eye on, as long as they dont try and take on the goonfleet or BoB.