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Oerdin
05-05-2006, 19:32:44
Came to see the new Asher thread? I bet you did. :p

JM^3
05-05-2006, 19:43:46
fap fap fap fap fap

JM

MattHiggs
05-05-2006, 19:49:21
It's a bit pathetic to be honest.

Ming
05-05-2006, 20:06:25
Originally posted by MattHiggs
It's a bit pathetic to be honest.

Just like the rest of his whine fests ;)

Actually... I surf this site on a pretty regular basis... but I'm still loath to post much since some people use it as a whine fest against poly ;)

I used to come here to relax, not listen to BS :smoke:

To the good people here :beer:

Oerdin
05-05-2006, 20:09:01
There are good people here?:eek:

Ming
05-05-2006, 20:13:21
Originally posted by Oerdin
There are good people here?:eek:

Yep... MANY :bounce:

:beer:

Venom
05-05-2006, 20:13:26
Fuck you good people.

Ming
05-05-2006, 20:18:03
Fuck you too venom ;)

MOBIUS
05-05-2006, 20:20:16
Fucking Poly. Bitch. Whine. Etc!:p

Darkstar
05-05-2006, 21:02:13
Ming just uses his other AE most of the time while here. No worries.

Oerdin
05-05-2006, 21:13:52
I bet it is Venom. He just hired a stand in to come to New York.

Immoral Wombat
05-05-2006, 21:16:57
Actually it is me!

I'm Ming!:bounce:

Ming
05-05-2006, 21:18:13
You forgot the :smoke:

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

Darkstar
05-05-2006, 21:18:34
Actually, he once banned his AE, to make it seem real.

I bet it's Asher. No CG person has actually met Asher, have they?

Darkstar
05-05-2006, 21:19:22
;)

MOBIUS
05-05-2006, 21:23:19
Just as long as he's not keith!:eek:

Darkstar
05-05-2006, 21:27:28
Everyone is Keith! :mad:

MOBIUS
05-05-2006, 21:28:43
Everyone except Ming...

Darkstar
05-05-2006, 21:42:15
Ming is Keith! We are all Keith! Even NotKeith is Keith!

Asher
05-05-2006, 21:42:30
Originally posted by MattHiggs
It's a bit pathetic to be honest.

I think this is directed at you, Ming. You only show up around here after you ban me -- who are you kidding?

Oerdin
05-05-2006, 21:48:38
Originally posted by Darkstar
Ming is Keith! We are all Keith! Even NotKeith is Keith!

In fact NotKeith was Keith's most cunning AE name ever.

NotKeith
05-05-2006, 21:54:45
I am NotKeith!

Darkstar
05-05-2006, 22:03:22
We knew you were coming, so we baked you a cake. Unfortunately, Venom ate it.

Oerdin
05-05-2006, 22:30:35
And the table it was on.

Ming
05-05-2006, 23:10:51
Originally posted by Asher
I think this is directed at you, Ming. You only show up around here after you ban me -- who are you kidding?

Maybe you should ask him what he meant... but frankly, looking at the thread, I would guess he was refering to the thread... But keep up trying to convince people you were right... maybe someday, somebody might fall for your crap :smoke:

David Furnish
05-05-2006, 23:11:59
...Shakin' that ass...

Can't get that song out of my mind, Ming baby...:love:

Asher
05-05-2006, 23:55:22
I am right, Ming. Rules that are not documented are arbitrary.

Ming
05-05-2006, 23:56:10
Keep whining... it's hilarious... I see you are just gathering tons of support here. ;)

Asher
05-05-2006, 23:58:02
It's true, whether people here agree or not. Why bother with a rules list if they don't apply?

Ming
06-05-2006, 00:07:37
I have no intention of debating whether or not you understand the concept of private... Your problem, not mine. But keep up your whining, it is entertaining... Enjoy... I do!

Provost Harrison
06-05-2006, 00:21:17
I see you Ming

Shaking that ass? ;)

Asher
06-05-2006, 00:24:56
Originally posted by Ming
I have no intention of debating whether or not you understand the concept of private... Your problem, not mine. But keep up your whining, it is entertaining... Enjoy... I do!
I understand the concept of private, and I also understand the concept of me selecting "I DO NOT WISH TO RECEIVE PRIVATE MESSAGES", and having you and MarkG PM me.

Maybe you should be banned for not understanding the concept of disabling PMs and not wishing to receive PMs?

Maybe we should just consider that the rules are as they are outlined in your RULES document. Inventing new rules as I just did, and as you did when you banned, does not suffice for any reasonable site.

Posting your ridiculous comments, which contained NO private information, in public may be considered inconsiderate at first. It is certainly not worthy of a weak-long ban, especially when it is not in violation of any rules. Simple as that.

Ming
06-05-2006, 00:27:22
Maybe you should begin to understand the concept of ownership... but nah, keep whining like a stuck pig... your ravings are great entertainment... I love when you try to tell people what they can do with their privately owned site...

The support here for you is amazing...

Skanky Burns
06-05-2006, 00:28:18
:beer:

Asher
06-05-2006, 00:28:27
Last time I checked, you are not an owner, Ming.

DanQ is, and I'm having a wonderful conversation with him via PM as we speak. He's infinitely more reasonable than you ever will be.

You're a pompous old American, and you act like it -- DO I MAKE MYSELF CLEAR !!

You can do no wrong!

Ming
06-05-2006, 00:29:55
Good luck...

Asher
06-05-2006, 00:30:37
It got UR fired, didn't it...

Wait, you deny that. I know it's true, DanQ told me as such. He resolved the problem, and pow, UR retires..

Ming
06-05-2006, 00:31:34
Oh... and I never said I was an owner... but you seem to think you can tell Mark and Dan what to do with their site...

Again... good luck with Dan... I'm sure your pleasent PM's will endear yourself to him...

Asher
06-05-2006, 00:33:26
You've become too comfortable with your powers over the many years you've been flexing your manly muscles on online forums. MarkG doesn't know how to run a tight ship and DanQ is oblivious to lots of the forum's problems.

You and MarkG have become bosombuddies, and it affects his judgement of what a reasonable Moderator's behaviour is. Your constant technique of sending vulgar, offensive, and rude PMs to me is psychologically known to provoke further behavior you wish to curb. Even I know that. Good moderators should know that.

You send me crap via PM, tell me to take my complaints via PM and then promptly ignore them. Then you ban me for quoting your embarrassing PMs in public. Classy.

Ming
06-05-2006, 00:35:09
Again... your levels of support here are amazing. Feel free to keep up your rants. They might work against some people, but frankly, it just makes you look silly.

Enjoy...

Asher
06-05-2006, 00:36:42
Originally posted by Ming
Oh... and I never said I was an owner... but you seem to think you can tell Mark and Dan what to do with their site...


I can provide reasonable input. Reasonable people will parse what they hear and listen to it.

Unreasonable people, such as yourself, respond with "blahblahblah!" if you don't like the person saying it.

What I'm saying to DanQ makes sense -- why are there "unwritten rules", and how can he permit moderators the power to enforce arbitrary rules of their choosing, when they see fit, particularly in defense of themselves (as you did). These are legit questions.

If it is a bannable offense to do something, it must be documented in the rules. Making shit up as you go along is unprofessional, and since DanQ and MarkG charge for access to special services through their site [which are revoked when banned], they have the obligation to run a professional service or run the risk of consumer complaints.

Dan understands this, Mark doesn't. Then again, Dan is in law school and MarkG runs one of the most pathetic web development companies I've ever seen.

Ming
06-05-2006, 00:38:34
Whatever... Keep it up, this is entertainment.

Asher
06-05-2006, 00:38:47
Originally posted by Ming
Again... your levels of support here are amazing. Feel free to keep up your rants. They might work against some people, but frankly, it just makes you look silly.

Enjoy...

For the life of me, I can't see what's silly about asking that rules be documented in your document called "rules". What's silly to me is ignoring this problem, not even saying "You're right, we should add that to the rules". You're just ignoring the problem completely, which was the entire point of publishing your PMs anyway.

You are intellectually incapable of using good judgement, it seems. A failing that was obvious when you supported UR's appointing, and is again obvious in situations like this which happen all the time with you.

This isn't your household and we're not your children, "my house, my rules" doesn't work when you're a "volunteer" who is a moderator for some psychological need to satisfy having some power over people.

Asher
06-05-2006, 00:39:31
"DO I MAKE MYSELF CLEAR !!"

Ming
06-05-2006, 00:43:39
You've made yourself very clear... it's unfortunate that you don't understand what private means... rant all you want.

As I've said before, it's been enforced in the past and will be in the future... you weren't treated any differently than anybody else.

Your problem...

Now keep up you rants... they are indeed entertaining.

Asher
06-05-2006, 00:45:36
Can you tell me what is inherently private about this message?

My PM:
Well, in the NHL thread notyoueither and joncha both repeatedly made blatant lies then proceeded to throw lots of rather personal insults for hours on end. It escalated pretty personal pretty fast, and one of nye's incredibly off-color comments is actually immortalized in Whaleboy's sig (which I haven't seen any moderator action about either). He made a direct insultt on my mother as well as me, it's in a sig, and I'm here getting yelled at by a moderator.

I'll tell you what, I'll start caring about what will or will not happen to me on this site when I see policy consistently and uniformly enforced.


Ming's response:
Blah blah blah... one of the biggest offenders on the site whining like a stuck pig. You reap what you sow...

(For those who missed it, I got banned from Poly for a week for pasting the exact text above)

Your next PM was
Pretty stupid of you...
(BTW, isn't that an insult and a violation of site rules?)

Asher
06-05-2006, 00:48:40
Another classic Ming exchange.

My PM:
The whole point was you ignore PM contents with crap like "blah blah blah", which is completely unprofessional and you know it does nothing but provoke me further.

I've forwarded our exchange of PMs to DanQ and then your actions in the thread, hopefully he can see the glaring problems for what they are.

You're dismissing legit complaints because you don't like me, and that's a problem. You have known for weeks that notyoueither has been baiting me, and you've done **** about it. And now you ban me for mocking you telling me to take it to PM, when you ignore PMs.

Ming's response:
Gee... you include personal insults in every PM, but blah blah blah is wrong... HAHAHAHHAHA

Keep it up and it could become a month.

It becomes clear why you deleted those posts, Ming. And it's not because it's a sensitive matter/private data, it's because you come off as an unreasonable asshole -- which is precisely why you deleted it.

The irony is you deleted these comments in response to me mocking your suggestion to "take it up via PM", because that's a polite way of you saying "fuck off, we don't care".

Koyaanisqatsi
06-05-2006, 01:18:56
fuck off, we don't care.

Fistandantilus
06-05-2006, 01:23:07
At all.

Oerdin
06-05-2006, 01:30:30
I think you secretly do.

Provost Harrison
06-05-2006, 01:33:32
I know I do...

Asher
06-05-2006, 01:58:31
Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi
fuck off, we don't care.

So don't read it, let alone reply/bump it?

Hello...

DaShi
06-05-2006, 02:56:03
Best thread evah!

Chris
06-05-2006, 04:37:32
No it isn't.

DaShi
06-05-2006, 04:53:30
Come on, it has everything. Action! Drama! Unrequited love!

Chris
06-05-2006, 05:01:42
Yes, but having Ming and Asher kills all of that.

notyoueither
06-05-2006, 05:57:40
Originally posted by Asher
[B]Can you tell me what is inherently private about this message?

My PM:
wah, wah, wah cut out

Well, I see I've made an impression.

Perhaps you'll think better of it before you start making overly personal comments about people.

Asher
06-05-2006, 08:17:27
'twas you who drew first blood.

mr_G
06-05-2006, 09:29:23
asher is een bedplasser!!!!!!

Chris
06-05-2006, 09:41:11
Easy for you to say.

MOBIUS
06-05-2006, 10:20:18
Far be it for me to much care about this exchange, but if what Asher says is true then he is being unfairly dealt with.

If he is being personally attacked, then action should be taken, so the reason this has escalated out of all proportion is that it hasn't despite his appearing to go through all the normal channels.

The point is that an effective moderator should be impartial at all times, even if it means acting in favour of someone they 'don't get along with' and punishing those that they do.

So if the sequence of events asher clearly describes in his own inimitable style is true, then I support him.

Scabrous Birdseed
06-05-2006, 10:21:39
Hey Ming!

Even if he's annoying, could you please stop banning Asher? When you do he comes here (http://www.counterglow.com/forum/member2.php?s=&action=addlist&userlist=ignore&userid=225) which means having to click the word "here (http://www.counterglow.com/forum/member2.php?s=&action=addlist&userlist=ignore&userid=225)" a million times per thread.

Lurker the Seconder
06-05-2006, 10:40:28
seconded!!!

Asher
06-05-2006, 20:01:18
The ban is up to 3 weeks now for posting Ming's PMs on this site. Awesome.

Diss
06-05-2006, 21:02:43
Originally posted by Ming
Yep... MANY :bounce:

:beer:

I'm one of them. Go ahead, you can say it. :)

Diss
06-05-2006, 21:05:38
So you can't post PM's? I didn't know that.

I was thinking about posting all the love messages I get from all the female posters over at poly. I get lots of women over there telling me they love me. But I'll save that for myself.

Skanky Burns
06-05-2006, 23:09:36
He isn't the first to get punished for posting PMs to the public.

Asher
07-05-2006, 00:39:17
What's most puzzling to me is MarkG and Ming's refusal to add this to the rules if it is a rule. I think that speaks volumes about how they treat me.

Asher
07-05-2006, 01:00:00
Apparently Apolyton is acting as a business (with its subscription service) without a license. There's also potential here for tax evasion since the payments are all done via PayPal and done under the table.

DanQ is refusing to refund my Poly Plus subscription remainder, despite them arbitrarily terminating my services. I've reported potential tax evasion to the IRS and the CRA, and tried to send a complaint to the BBB but they only handle complaints about legit businesses. So now I'm looking at who to complain to next.

Gives me something to do, being banned and all.

Skanky Burns
07-05-2006, 01:00:53
They are lazy. The rules hardly ever get updated, and can be treated as a guideline basically.

Asher
07-05-2006, 01:03:07
When you run a business with a subscription service, there are obligations. Those obligations are not being met, nor are they being professional about pretty much anything here.

If you pay for a magazine subscription through 2008 and they stop sending you them for arbitrary reasons, you are entitled to a refund, for instance.

Koyaanisqatsi
07-05-2006, 01:14:36
Fuck, now he's going to get permabanned and be here all the time.

Asher
07-05-2006, 01:17:12
I've been around these parts long before you, web-monkey.

Skanky Burns
07-05-2006, 03:04:08
Seriously, dude. You are causing yourself more trouble than its worth.

Asher
07-05-2006, 04:06:05
I think there's a serious problem if DanQ/MarkG will take the money, arbitrarily suspend service and refuse to refund it.

I also think there's a serious problem if Ming ignores any and all content in my messages, then tells me to take everything to PM if I have a problem (when nothing happens -- he ignores it once it's out of public sight).

Combined, it has pissed me off. DanQ is receiving direct payments by offering a subscription-based business without paying tax, a simple letter to the CRA Investigative Unit with some information never hurt anyone. They're going out of their way not to do anything about problems that've been identified, and their God complex needs to end.

Ming
07-05-2006, 04:28:04
Originally posted by Asher
When you run a business with a subscription service, there are obligations. Those obligations are not being met, nor are they being professional about pretty much anything here.

If you pay for a magazine subscription through 2008 and they stop sending you them for arbitrary reasons, you are entitled to a refund, for instance.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :

It's not a subscription service... you give FREELY to support the site... they are contributions... so what obligations could you possibly be talking about. Supporting the site doesn't free you from having to following the rules. So enjoy...

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

HelloKitty
07-05-2006, 04:33:20
Originally posted by Ming
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :

It's not a subscription service... you give FREELY to support the site... they are contributions... so what obligations could you possibly be talking about. Supporting the site doesn't free you from having to following the rules. So enjoy...

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Not a subscription service?

http://apolyton.net/plus/?action=details#benefits


The administration of Apolyton Civilization Site (ACS), the oldest continuously and arguably largest operating Civilization fansite on the Internet, is today announcing the launch of the "ApolytonPLUS" (PLUS) subscription service for its visitor base.

Asher
07-05-2006, 04:35:30
It's advertised as a subscription service, Ming. It's not a donation, I'm paying for a subscription service. It's in the name, for christ sake.

Asher
07-05-2006, 04:44:37
And I must reiterate, I'm viewing the Apolyton rules and I still do not see any rule I violated.

You're even going to have a tougher time seeing as how you're using my behavior on a different site to affect my Apolyton service based on a rule that doesn't exist.

It's amazing the extent you guys will go to avoid having to admit to being wrong. It took you guys 2.5 years to fire UR...

KrazyHorse@home
07-05-2006, 06:07:39
Originally posted by Ming
It's not a subscription service... you give FREELY to support the site... they are contributions... so what obligations could you possibly be talking about. Supporting the site doesn't free you from having to following the rules. So enjoy...

Given that Poly promises to provide value for the fee, it is a subscription service.

Unban Asher so I can watch him beat up Aggie instead of having to do it myself. :(

Lazarus and the Gimp
07-05-2006, 07:13:59
Asher? What are you like when something happens to you that actually matters?

Asher
07-05-2006, 07:20:15
You don't want to know.

Chris
07-05-2006, 07:28:21
Hmm, since ol Marko is in macedonia, the laws of Greece would apply to poly, which means forget about seeing a penny back once you give it to em.

Why you would give them any money to begin with is a mystery.

Asher
07-05-2006, 07:30:34
The money went to DanQ's paypal account. He lives in Ontario, Canada.

KrazyHorse@home
07-05-2006, 07:31:03
Aren't the servers located in the US?

US law applies, in that case.

Asher
07-05-2006, 07:34:34
They're hosted there I think, by some hosting company.

I'll see what the CRA says first.

DaShi
07-05-2006, 07:34:58
Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
Asher? What are you like when something happens to you that actually matters?

Actually, there are no such thing as nuclear bombs.

What happened at Nagasaki and Hiroshima was that relatives of Asher were sent there after discovering that their phone bill was overcharged.

Asher
07-05-2006, 07:36:32
I raised tons of hell when Bell tried to charge me for a DSL modem they never sent me. It was glorious.

Poor customer service reps. :(

KrazyHorse@home
07-05-2006, 07:40:06
You're sick, Asher.

:lol:

Asher
07-05-2006, 07:43:55
They wouldn't give up. At the time both my phone and DSL were through them. I simply told them: "I'm just not going to pay for something I never received. What are you going to do about it?"

They started threatening my phone service, and I told them they could cancel it because I was switching to Telus. And if they want to contact me again they can wait a few days and call me on my new Telus line, and then hung up.

Never heard from them again, and they never did charge me for the modem.

Asher
07-05-2006, 07:46:36
And then there was the time that Aggie insulted my SO on the Mac forums. :mad:

Chris
07-05-2006, 07:50:23
Originally posted by KrazyHorse@home
Aren't the servers located in the US?

US law applies, in that case. Nope.

But good luck in trying.

Chris
07-05-2006, 07:51:55
Hey ash, how much money did you give them?

Asher
07-05-2006, 07:57:33
Originally posted by Chris
Nope.

But good luck in trying.
It's hosted by EV1Servers (http://www.ev1servers.net/), which is in Texas.

And $50USD.

JM^3
07-05-2006, 08:00:11
I might be foolish enough to go to the convention. But I am not foolish enough to pay for nicer avatar..

JM

Asher
07-05-2006, 08:05:59
I sent an email to abuse@ev1servers.net for good measure documenting potentially illegal activity on the site.

And jon: Since I used the site a lot, I figured I'd be nice (since I don't view the ads) and subscribe. We all make mistakes, I guess, from now on I'll just adblock it and crank up FasterFox's settings to hit the servers hard and fast. This courteous thing gets you nowhere.

notyoueither
07-05-2006, 08:15:22
:lol:

notyoueither
07-05-2006, 08:20:23
Originally posted by Asher
DanQ is receiving direct payments by offering a subscription-based business without paying tax, a simple letter to the CRA Investigative Unit with some information never hurt anyone.

:lol:

Originally posted by Asher
They're hosted there I think, by some hosting company.

I'll see what the CRA says first.

They'll think you're a loon trying to cause problems for someone you have a hate on for. They get many such 'tips'.

So long as Dan has declared any proceeds of the site that he may have kept (assuming there are any) there's no problem for him.

You seem to be assuming they make a significant profit off the site.

I doubt it's significant enough to pay the cost of an auditor to go root around.

Asher
07-05-2006, 08:22:06
They don't need to audit. Doesn't he need to register with the government for GST?

And an audit would be pretty simple -- look at his return and see if he claimed income from a business he runs.

notyoueither
07-05-2006, 08:22:36
No.

Asher
07-05-2006, 08:23:05
Then why does every other site make me pay GST?

HelloKitty
07-05-2006, 08:25:00
Is the CRA not like the IRS?

I don't know about the CRA, but the IRS would send you a 14$ airborne express certified letter to tell you to pay your 20 cents you owe or face legal proceedings.

And probably send a second copy the following day.

Maybe Asher can start a grass roots campaign on all the civ sites. Write a letter that people can sign and send to their congressmen.

Asher
07-05-2006, 08:25:34
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tax/business/topics/gst/soleprop/registering/mandatory-e.html

If you make $30K/year or more you need to register, otherwise it's voluntary. I doubt DanQ makes $30K from it. :/

JM^3
07-05-2006, 08:26:36
Yeah, I bet it all gets funneled to offshore greek holdings..

JM

Chris
07-05-2006, 08:27:10
Originally posted by Asher
It's hosted by EV1Servers (http://www.ev1servers.net/), which is in Texas.

And $50USD. $50????

Are you nuts???

What do you get for that?

notyoueither
07-05-2006, 08:27:47
Not unless they've collected $3K in subscriptions from people located in Canada in the last calendar year.

And even then, the status of where the 'business' is is somewhat murky.

A Canadian does not pay GST for a service received outside of the country.

Asher
07-05-2006, 08:27:56
Nothing, apparently.

Asher
07-05-2006, 08:28:48
Originally posted by notyoueither
Not unless they've collected $3K in subscriptions from people located in Canada in the last calendar year.

And even then, the status of where the 'business' is is somewhat murky.

A Canadian does not pay GST for a service received outside of the country.
Since the server is in Texas, I'd imagine it falls under IRS rules, then. As KH said.

Now, what are the Texas and US Federal laws on small business taxes?

notyoueither
07-05-2006, 08:29:36
Originally posted by Asher
Then why does every other site make me pay GST?

Their either in Canada (like in offices and infrastructure and such) or they are ripping you off.

Chris
07-05-2006, 08:30:56
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/index.html

notyoueither
07-05-2006, 08:32:02
Originally posted by Asher
Since the server is in Texas, I'd imagine it falls under IRS rules, then. As KH said.

Now, what are the Texas and US Federal laws on small business taxes?

Ahh, now you are in the net.

Only, the proceeds of the partnership are not realised in the US.

Mark and Dan owe income taxes to their respective states for shit they keep.

Sales tax people aren't going to get them in trouble.

Asher
07-05-2006, 08:33:13
Well, first thing that jumps out at me is to operate a business based in the US, you need a Taxpayer Identification Number (TIN). I doubt they have that. Since neither Dan nor Mark are American, they'd need to apply for an Employer ID number (even if self-employed): http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=97860,00.html

Then they'd need to file returns.

Asher
07-05-2006, 08:34:41
Originally posted by notyoueither
Ahh, now you are in the net.

Only, the proceeds of the partnership are not realised in the US.

Mark and Dan owe income taxes to their respective states for shit they keep.

Sales tax people aren't going to get them in trouble.

If the business is hosted in Texas, it local laws (including taxes) apply. That's why lots of sketchy businesses operate out of islands in the Pacific.

notyoueither
07-05-2006, 08:34:51
They aren't running a business based in the US.

They are hosted there.

They aren't running a business based in Canada or Geece, either. The partners merely reside there.

Asher
07-05-2006, 08:35:57
I'm sure if I send letters to the CRA, IRS, and Greek's tax people, at least one of them will want to tap another source to tax.

I've got nothing to do for over a week, lots of time to send form letters. :b:

notyoueither
07-05-2006, 08:36:42
:lol:

Asher
07-05-2006, 08:37:34
Originally posted by notyoueither
They aren't running a business based in the US.
They are using an American hosting company to run a business in America using an American payment service, why shouldn't they pay American tax?

I'm calling BS on your whole "no taxes thing". Otherwise companies like Amazon would incorporate in Canada, host across the boarder and not pay taxes...

notyoueither
07-05-2006, 08:40:23
They are real companies, with assets, real revenues, and shit.

All Dan and Mark have to do is declare the cash they keep from the partnership to be in the clear with Canadian (and I would assume Greek) authorities. There are your taxes.

Ever try to tax flea markets?

Asher
07-05-2006, 08:42:52
So where do the ethical responsibilities start and end?

If people pay for a service, and the provider fails to provide the service and then fails to provide a refund, where does one get justice?

DaShi
07-05-2006, 08:43:10
Originally posted by notyoueither

Ever try to tax flea markets?

Yes. It didn't go over well with the local residents.

notyoueither
07-05-2006, 08:59:28
Originally posted by Asher
So where do the ethical responsibilities start and end?

If people pay for a service, and the provider fails to provide the service and then fails to provide a refund, where does one get justice?

Not from the tax man.

Asher
07-05-2006, 09:01:10
But the tax man can audit, which is a huge pain in the ass.

notyoueither
07-05-2006, 09:01:36
In cases like small web sites where you may pay a fee, I think caveat emptor applies.

You could sue Dan personally, in Ontario, if that floats your boat. But don't think that the tax administration exists to be your avenger.

Asher
07-05-2006, 09:01:51
I found what I was looking for anyway: http://www.econsumer.gov/

Asher
07-05-2006, 09:03:43
That would be quite an experience. Maybe if I'm sufficiently bored when I move back to Ontario I'll take him to small claims court. There would be something curiously funny about the whole experience.

notyoueither
07-05-2006, 09:04:42
Originally posted by Asher
But the tax man can audit, which is a huge pain in the ass.

You think they pay an auditor $200 a day to go and look at the books of every actual company in Canada they get bat-shit-crazy complaints about?

Asher
07-05-2006, 09:04:56
And the tax administration exists to rape people up the ass -- it can be used as an avenger if used properly.

Asher
07-05-2006, 09:05:23
Originally posted by notyoueither
You think they pay an auditor $200 a day to go and look at the books of every actual company in Canada they get bat-shit-crazy complaints about?
Yes. I'm sure of it.

And those people take 5 days to do what a normal person could do in the private sector in 1 day.

Asher
07-05-2006, 09:08:06
They audited my brother last year -- he had a total income of under $20,000 as a registered university student and they still audited him.

Never underestimate the CRA.

notyoueither
07-05-2006, 09:08:10
Ha!

An auditor can spend weeks, full time, on the premises of a company with less than 10 employees.

At $200 a day it adds up.

Where do you think they file complaints such as yours?

Asher
07-05-2006, 09:09:21
Top shelf, because it's far easier than auditing PetroCanada.

notyoueither
07-05-2006, 09:10:00
:lol:

Asher
07-05-2006, 09:11:46
That's how tech support works, too.

Whenever we had a severity 1, critical-situation from the US Department of Energy at the same time as a severity 4, "typo in the help documents" problem from Joe Bob's Computer Emporium, you can bet your ass that the DOE one isn't the one jumped on first. ;)

MOBIUS
07-05-2006, 13:56:59
Notice that Ming hasn't posted since HK & KH (interesting palindrome that!?) busted him...:cute:

Highly entertaining thread this!:)

Chris
07-05-2006, 14:02:33
Yeah, I'm sure he is all worried about it.

Colon
07-05-2006, 14:22:42
That bastard.

paiktis22
07-05-2006, 14:24:52
Amen.

Colon
07-05-2006, 14:27:49
He fixed my registration date though. That makes him sacred. A sacred bastard.

paiktis22
07-05-2006, 14:29:02
Ming only wants the forums to be civilized. I think he'd be content not to have any work to do. Not that this will ever happen of course ;)

Koyaanisqatsi
07-05-2006, 14:31:53
Originally posted by KrazyHorse@home
Aren't the servers located in the US?

US law applies, in that case.
Better hope not, since I assume publishing a private message would be treated like publishing an email without the consent of the sender, which is kinda illegal here. Not that people get damages or anything if it's just a regular email, but given that it is technically illegal it would probably seen as a valid reason for discontinuing Asher's account, payment or no.

Colon
07-05-2006, 14:33:27
It's also illegal to be annoying over there.

KrazyHorse@home
07-05-2006, 14:52:14
Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi
Better hope not, since I assume publishing a private message would be treated like publishing an email without the consent of the sender, which is kinda illegal here.

I'm not aware of any such law.

MOBIUS
07-05-2006, 17:53:23
Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi
Better hope not, since I assume publishing a private message would be treated like publishing an email without the consent of the sender, which is kinda illegal here. Not that people get damages or anything if it's just a regular email, but given that it is technically illegal it would probably seen as a valid reason for discontinuing Asher's account, payment or no.

Doubt it...

Often these things are linked in the public interest:

Miss Moore's memo, written at 2.55pm on September 11, when millions of people were transfixed by the terrible television images of the terrorist attack, said: "It is now a very good day to get out anything we want to bury. Councillors expenses?" (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/10/10/nmoor10.xml)

Or: How members of the Labour Party sought to take advantage of the deaths of thousands innocent Americans 'buried' under the twin towers of the WTC...

There are countless examples...

Sometimes memos/emails/letters (PMs) etc need to be exposed in the best interests of the public e.g. Whistleblowing.

In this case because I am assuming Asher's allegations are true (Ming did not deny them), it is in the interests of posters to know that certain Mods are abusing the spirit of PM correspondence by ignoring Asher's reasonable entreaties (pointing out people had broken the rules on poly), and indeed using PMs to taunt and goad him into an engineered situation whereby Ming can find justification in banning him.

But then being victimised by the establishment is the lot of the whistleblower...:(

Koyaanisqatsi
07-05-2006, 17:55:53
It's a result of copyright law. US copyright law says that copyright is applied during the act of creation--an email is a copyrighted text. Reproducing it without the consent of the author is technically illegal, though like I said, it is rarely prosecuted because the likelyhood of damages is very low. Fair use applies as well, and the actual content of the letter is not protected, only the message itself...you can summarize, but you can't copy/paste the whole thing. The same principle has been applied to paper letters as well.

Koyaanisqatsi
07-05-2006, 17:57:04
I somehow doubt whistleblowing would apply here.......

Ming
07-05-2006, 18:37:06
Originally posted by MOBIUS
Doubt it...
In this case because I am assuming Asher's allegations are true (Ming did not deny them), it is in the interests of posters to know that certain Mods are abusing the spirit of PM correspondence by ignoring Asher's reasonable entreaties (pointing out people had broken the rules on poly), and indeed using PMs to taunt and goad him into an engineered situation whereby Ming can find justification in banning him.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA... he never posts the PM's where he is the insulting ass... He always starts it by being his normal self.

As you can tell from what he posts, he's seldom reasonable. He is the king of taunts and abuse. So I laugh at your assumption :smoke:

Colon
07-05-2006, 18:47:44
Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi
It's a result of copyright law. US copyright law says that copyright is applied during the act of creation--an email is a copyrighted text. Reproducing it without the consent of the author is technically illegal, though like I said, it is rarely prosecuted because the likelyhood of damages is very low. Fair use applies as well, and the actual content of the letter is not protected, only the message itself...you can summarize, but you can't copy/paste the whole thing. The same principle has been applied to paper letters as well.

Wow, emails are considered to be creative works in the US?

For a moment I thought you were basing yourself on privacy laws, which might have made sense but what you are claiming there sounds like a load of ballooney.

Koyaanisqatsi
07-05-2006, 18:52:05
Sorry, but it's true. I got it from the state AG when they brought a case involving an email system I did support on.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
07-05-2006, 19:29:24
Originally posted by Colon
Wow, emails are considered to be creative works in the US?



Rhythmic farting can be protected under US "intellectual" property and patent laws.

Colon
07-05-2006, 20:51:28
Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi
Sorry, but it's true.

Apologies accepted.

Colon
07-05-2006, 20:52:45
Is copyright equally applied to regular letters then?

Asher
07-05-2006, 21:24:09
Originally posted by Ming
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA... he never posts the PM's where he is the insulting ass... He always starts it by being his normal self.

As you can tell from what he posts, he's seldom reasonable. He is the king of taunts and abuse. So I laugh at your assumption :smoke:

I'm usually reasonable, if I add in taunts it's for fun. Taunts are not unreasonable.

And the difference here, Ming, is you are part of the administration for a paid service. You are held to a different standard than regular posters. It's one of the job perks of volunteering to get your rocks off banning people.

Koyaanisqatsi
07-05-2006, 21:33:46
Originally posted by Colon
Is copyright equally applied to regular letters then?
Again, theoretically, but rarely in practice. It's been used at least a couple of times I can think of to sue somebody who published a letter they've received in a book without consent.

Koyaanisqatsi
07-05-2006, 21:34:32
What a horrible sentence that was. Ugh. Time to sleep.

Asher
07-05-2006, 21:45:48
The problem is those kinds of communication contain what is obviously private material, messages like "That was stupid of you", "blah blah blah", and "HAHAHAHAHA" are hardly grounds for any action.

Ming
07-05-2006, 21:48:14
But Asher, you are ignoring the facts that you can't break the rules, and when you do, you get restricted...

Let's see... acting like ass, insults, disrupting the site, flaming, posting PM's, not using common sense... You are just getting what you deserve... and now, when it does happen, you whine like a stuck pig...

Enjoy... everybody has seen your act. :lol:

Asher
07-05-2006, 22:19:48
Originally posted by Ming
But Asher, you are ignoring the facts that you can't break the rules, and when you do, you get restricted...

The fact is, I broke no rule. You keep ignoring that.

The rules are what you outline in your document called "Rules". The excuse that you've banned people before for things not outlined in your Rules doesn't make it okay, nor reasonable.

You don't seem to comprehend some very basic things, Ming:

#1) You have a rule document which outlines the rules of the site -- not some of the rules
#2) Poly Plus is a subscription service, and if that subscription is terminated for arbitrary reasons not included in the agreed-upon rules that were published, that person is entitled to a refund of the balance.

Asher
07-05-2006, 22:20:58
And Agathon is a moron. He seems to think you still are subscribed to Poly Plus when you're banned. That is not the case.

Colon
07-05-2006, 22:34:45
Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi
What a horrible sentence that was. Ugh. Time to sleep.

Nah, it was totally appropriate. Very lawyeresque.

Colon
07-05-2006, 22:35:57
I don't know Asher, when I was mod at some forum, I was constantly making up rules too.

Tuberski
07-05-2006, 22:51:30
I have always known that posting PMs was against the rules. I'm sure Asher knows that to, nut is using the fact that it's not in the rules as an excuse to push the envelope.

Now he wants to try to do to Poly what that other poster threatened to do to him years ago.

Asher
07-05-2006, 22:55:42
Get my money back?

All I want is a refund.

I actually didn't know posting PMs was against the rules, particularly when there was nothing inherently private about them. If the administration is going to mock me and ignore legit complaints, I think I have every right to bring that public -- especially since there's nothing in the rules against that.

I want my money back because it's patently clear that the Poly administration is completely unprofessional and have repeatedly made it perfectly clear they don't give a shit when I have complaints or issues. As a result, I want a refund of my Poly Plus membership and that's it.

Dan and Mark absolutely refuse to do that, so I'm filing complaints where appropriate.

Solver
07-05-2006, 22:58:24
OK, there you go. Rules on what can't be posted, taken from http://apolyton.net/forums/misc.php?s=&action=faq&page=4#38


Insults, flames, hatred comments, spamming, advertisements are an abuse of your priviledge to post and can result to a penalty.

Restricted subject matter includes anything deemed inappropiate or offensive by a moderator. If uncertain as to whether a particular subject falls under this category, contact the moderator(s) of the forum(s) you wish to discuss this matter in; where no moderator(s) is present in a forum, contact forum administrators.

It says very plainly that anything deemed inappropriate by the moderators is inappropriate. And that just about covers posting PMs, hardcore porn (not listed in the first part of that rule) and many other things, which are seen inappropriate by any mod.

Asher
07-05-2006, 23:03:42
Sufficiently vague, it includes disagreeing with moderators and calling them out on their unprofessional behavior.

Solver
07-05-2006, 23:06:44
Theoretically, it includes anything, even a (theoretical) mod's decision to call all posts mentioning Bush inappropriate.

The other rules, and this one too, also state that questions about mod behaviour are to be addressed to the owners. It's a working system, isn't it?

Fistandantilus
07-05-2006, 23:07:50
Hey Solver, shouldn't you be betatesting civilization 4: Warlords?

Why the hell are you here wasting your precious time after Asher? :tizzy:

Asher
07-05-2006, 23:09:36
Originally posted by Solver

The other rules, and this one too, also state that questions about mod behaviour are to be addressed to the owners. It's a working system, isn't it?

The whole point is, it's not. I've been addressing my complaints to the owners for a long time, MarkG openly insults me and mocks me in my complaints (as does Ming). It's a broken system, hence bringing it to the public.

It's also the reason Ming deleted the posts where he looked like a douche in his PMs. I've got a ton more of those, too. From Mark and Ming. And I've got lots of brilliant "conversations" with Dan, including his response rate to PMs of about 10%, and the 10% he does respond to consist of "This conversation is over" (am I going to get banned for quoting that)?

Ming
07-05-2006, 23:16:21
Originally posted by Asher
The whole point is, it's not. I've been addressing my complaints to the owners for a long time, MarkG openly insults me and mocks me in my complaints (as does Ming). It's a broken system, hence bringing it to the public.


Maybe because you start it... you are one of the biggest rules breaker on the site... you even admit you like being an ass... and then you whine when you get it back because people are tired of you.


It's also the reason Ming deleted the posts where he looked like a douche in his PMs. I've got a ton more of those, too. From Mark and Ming. And I've got lots of brilliant "conversations" with Dan, including his response rate to PMs of about 10%, and the 10% he does respond to consist of "This conversation is over" (am I going to get banned for quoting that)?


And we have tons of your PM's where you start off the insults and act like a total jerk... interesting how you never post those.
Very selective about it... ;)

And maybe people are tired of responding to your insulting PM's.
If you were civilized, you might get some respect. But you aren't.
You don't show ANYBODY any respect, but demand it in return.
So until you do... nobody is going to show you much.

So keep on whining like a stuck pig. Everybody knows your act.
You just prove it with every post.

Solver
07-05-2006, 23:16:26
I can't be testing Warlords every minute of the day you know :). Just wanted to make this point for a couple of days now, and I remembered about this place...

And Asher, okay, so what can you say against the fact that Apolyton is a privately owned site by Markos and Dan? They can choose not to respond to PMs, they can choose to fire all mods, they can choose to ban you permanently, or they can turn the site into a Britney Spears fan forum. They're the owners.

Asher
07-05-2006, 23:26:49
Originally posted by Ming
Maybe because you start it... you are one of the biggest rules breaker on the site... you even admit you like being an ass... and then you whine when you get it back because people are tired of you.
Because people provoke me intentionally, and you ignore it. Then you ban me for returning fire because "I've got a history". You don't see a problem with that.

And we have tons of your PM's where you start off the insults and act like a total jerk... interesting how you never post those.
I've got tons of posts where I'm completely reasonable, and you never give me credit for that...interesting. ;)

And maybe people are tired of responding to your insulting PM's.
If you were civilized, you might get some respect.
I posted both my original message and your reply. My messages contained no insults or jibes at you, but yours contained them along with your obvious attitude of "I don't care!"

You don't understand the problem of selective moderation, something you are very, very guilty of.

Asher
07-05-2006, 23:28:46
Originally posted by Solver

And Asher, okay, so what can you say against the fact that Apolyton is a privately owned site by Markos and Dan? They can choose not to respond to PMs, they can choose to fire all mods, they can choose to ban you permanently, or they can turn the site into a Britney Spears fan forum. They're the owners.
That's perfectly fine so long as don't offer a subscription service. Once you become a public entity in the way of offering business services, there are laws and obligations that must be abided by. It's actually illegal for companies to plug their ears and ignore complaints from people don't receive magazine subscriptions, for instance.

It doesn't matter if it's a private or public site, there are rules of conducting business in Canada, the US, and probably even Greece. If I'm not getting a service I am subscribed to, I am entitled to a refund.

Solver
07-05-2006, 23:30:59
Okay, but the subscription service's terms of use explicitly stay that if you're banned for whatever period of time, you gain no subscription benefits during that period. A magazine not delivering subscriptions is, well, not delivering what it promises, whereas you getting no PLUS stuff while banned is listed in the terms of use, and was known to you before you signed up and paid.

Asher
07-05-2006, 23:34:48
Actually, that clause was added after the fact. I've got printed copies of the TOS when I signed up, and that was not included.

MarkG added that afterwards the first time I was banned and lost access to Poly Plus and complained about it.

Solver
07-05-2006, 23:43:06
And if so, wouldn't that mean that you only have a valid case regarding the first ban, when the rule had not yet been stated explicitly, but not with regards to now or any other recent cases?

Asher
07-05-2006, 23:44:06
No, because I have never agreed to the terms of service as they are now.

Solver
07-05-2006, 23:53:01
I'm somehow pretty sure that'd never work for a case. There have to be provisions such as that changing you are considered to have agreed to changed terms if you haven't revoked your subscription within X after the change, or something. Many companies and service providers change/update their terms, and I do not get bombarded by new requests to agree to updated terms.

Asher
07-05-2006, 23:54:46
I TRIED to revoke my subscription then as well, Solver.

This is not the first time I've asked them to cancel my subscription and refund the balance. I did the first time I was banned as well, they then modified the TOS retroactively with that clause but refused to refund my money.

Asher
07-05-2006, 23:55:29
And most TOS say they are subject to change without notice; Plus' doesn't. Those are legally questionable anyway, and are only applicable when it's possible to cancel a subscription if you don't agree with the new terms.

Solver
08-05-2006, 00:02:58
One thing that came out of this is that I got curious about how the "subject to change without notice" agreements that are just about everywhere work and remain legal.

Asher
08-05-2006, 00:04:25
All I'm asking for is a refund of the balance of my subscription. I don't know why they are refusing this, it would make everyone's life a lot easier.

MOBIUS
08-05-2006, 00:08:31
Hmmm, so Ming has basically admitted to acting like a jerk in his PMs to Asher...:cute:

I do like it when the truth starts filtering out through the rest of the crap.

I have to say though that I think the biggest scandal in all of this is that Asher actually paid money for PolyPlus in the first place...!:lol:

Scabrous Birdseed
08-05-2006, 07:58:26
Here's a suggestion: Create a "compain about being banned" forum at Poly where even people who're banned can post.

Skanky Burns
08-05-2006, 08:37:04
Why, when Poly can dump their banned at other sites? :)

Solver
08-05-2006, 10:51:03
Actually... I can not remember PLUS changing its subscription terms retroactively, now that I think of it - being Poly staff, I was, after all, involved to a degree. Got scans :)?

Chris
08-05-2006, 12:40:25
Asher, you deserve this, only a sucker would give those guys $50 bucks.

Its a dopey civ site, there is nothing they offer worth that.

Darkstar
08-05-2006, 18:13:40
I agree with Mobius.

Adding banning time to Asher for what he says here over at Poly just isn't cricket. If they want to permaban him (their right, as a private service provider), that's their business. They should just do it, and not make excuses for him staying away for just a little while later. If they want his money, they have to put up with him while providing him the promised service, at least until he does break a *documented* rule. Not a "well, everyone knows it". Not everyone knows it, so just add it into the damn list of rules, so then everyone has a chance of knowing it (but ignoring it, like all other rules).

I think Asher's got a case. He bought a service, they are due to refund him or continue to provide the service. There's some similar cases been through the US local level courts, including Texas, IIRC. I think it was Dallas and Austin level cases, but I don't feel like Googling for them nor digging through my archives to see if that's true. ;)

If the server is in Texas, then Asher could try for getting this under US Federal (definately won't happen) and Texas state law. However, Texas state and the local authorities probably wouldn't bother with the case. He'd need to get some face coverage on TV down there to make that happen, and all that would come out of that is that Markos and DanQ would move their site to a different server or hosting service.

That's the problem with providing a paid "service". It screws with being able to just do things like you always did.

If Ash complains long enough, someone in tax collection will look it over. How many subscribers are there? They are all paying what, 2/month? At 10K subscribers, that's 20K/month. At 15K subs, that's 30K. If it all goes through DanQ to then pay Apolyton bills, that's DanQ's personal income, not profit. Wasn't 30K a magic number for requiring something according to previous post?

It's really not worth getting Ash focused on it. DanQ should just write him a check. Then Poly can perma-ban Ash and be done with it.

Japher
08-05-2006, 18:15:22
damn it DS, what did we tell you about long posts!?

mr_G
08-05-2006, 18:18:47
he's back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
dorkstar forevah

Oerdin
08-05-2006, 18:20:00
Originally posted by HelloKitty
Not a subscription service?

http://apolyton.net/plus/?action=details#benefits

Ouch! Now that is what I call pwnage.

Venom
08-05-2006, 18:20:14
DORKSTAR!!!! THE EVER LIVING!!!!

Darkstar
08-05-2006, 18:28:45
I saved up my posts. My other game forum yells at me when I triple and quad post short replies. They *want* the long posts, the bastards! (Yes, they are really sick people.)

MarkG
08-05-2006, 19:21:14
Originally posted by Darkstar
How many subscribers are there? They are all paying what, 2/month? At 10K subscribers, that's 20K/month. At 15K subs, that's 30K. congratulations :beer: Darkstar, you made me post on CG :bounce:

10-15K subscribers!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
amazing, simply amazing.....

Darkstar
08-05-2006, 19:36:49
Hey, when steady money is involved, it doesn't take long to add up over a year.

Consider, if $30K Canadian/year is the threshold, then all that Apolyton Plus needs to take in is 15K months worth of subscribers sum-total for a year. Spread over 12 months, even an average of just over 1K of subscribers will cross the limit.

That is not including your ad revenue, recommendations cuts (like when you were getting a very tiny piece of every pre-order of Civ4 placed through Poly), your actual swag income, and of course, now there's the whole "Civ4 convention donations"/"Civ4 con registration fees".

It doesn't take much to cross the line from too small for a government tax office to care to that category where they want you properly licensed and filing under a private business to make sure they are getting their (unfair) share. It's a pain, but every few years these days, that line drops, Mark. The point is: every single penny had better be properly noted and taxed as appropriate. Governments are notorious at over-estimating things in their favor if you have any non-documented spots when they want to review your past performances because they've finally noticed your business.

Venom
08-05-2006, 19:40:48
I hope the government gives in to MarkG Greek style. Like he likes it. HARD!

Darkstar
08-05-2006, 19:49:37
I like MarkG. We've always gotten along, AFAIK anyways. ;) But once they started being a subscription service, they did cross the line from a fan web site just trying to pay its bandwidth to an actual business. The only question is what government(s) will want to make sure its getting its protection money, I mean, taxes.

I don't think MarkG or DanQ are making squat off it, but if a government revenue service decides to take a look, then how would they prove it? I've known service providers that didn't document their subscriptions well enough and so they got retro-actively back taxed at their current income levels. Just because they couldn't prove that 3 years ago, they only had 110 subscribers, rather then their current 9K worth (what internet business has been steady for its whole life?) really makes a difference. That is the sort of crippling fines that puts a small business into the grave (and its owners into bankruptcy), but the tax men never care about that. There is always more victims for the tax men, so they have no worries.

Venom
08-05-2006, 19:58:48
I'm not going to read that, but DEATH TO EVERYTHING YOU SAID!

Darkstar
08-05-2006, 20:00:25
It wasn't anything interesting. Just talking about a business I know that got ass-raped by the tax man. Like that is new.

Darkstar
08-05-2006, 20:09:26
Originally posted by Venom
I'm not going to read that, but DEATH TO EVERYTHING YOU SAID!

Humm... let's see how that looks:

==========================================

DEATH TO EVERYTHING YOU SAID!

DEATH TO MarkG!
DEATH TO fan web sites!
DEATH TO paying!
DEATH TO subscription services!
DEATH TO bandwidth!
DEATH TO businesses!
DEATH TO governments!
DEATH TO protection money!
DEATH TO taxes!
DEATH TO MarkG!
DEATH TO DanQ!
DEATH TO government revenue services!
DEATH TO services providers!
DEATH TO subscriptions!
DEATH TO back taxes!
DEATH TO current income level!
DEATH TO 3 years ago!
DEATH TO subscribers!
DEATH TO internet businesses!
DEATH TO being steady!
DEATH TO whole life!
DEATH TO crippling fines!
DEATH TO small businesses!
DEATH TO owners!
DEATH TO bankruptcy!
DEATH TO tax men!
DEATH TO never care(ing)!
DEATH TO victims!
DEATH TO tax men!
DEATH TO no worries!

-DarkVenom
"DEATH TO all you bitches!"

Chris
08-05-2006, 20:12:37
Poly is a business?

What service do they provide?

Venom
08-05-2006, 20:16:40
Man whores.

Darkstar
08-05-2006, 20:18:20
A subscription service to the Poly forums with improved services over their free offerings.

Basically, they charge you money to avoid the ads on the forums. That is a basic exchange of a service for cash. They call it a subscription, which implies a level of service, again reinforcing that they are a business.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
08-05-2006, 20:19:44
Avoiding the ads on the poly forums - 50 $.

Avoiding the retards on the poly forums - priceless.

Chris
08-05-2006, 20:22:00
I'm tempted to 100-0 that DS.

You guys need to seriously lighten up.

The question was rhetorical, poly provides nothing, that is the point.

Darkstar
08-05-2006, 20:37:02
There are people that would wonder what business it is.

Poly does provide a lot of people with something of value, Chris. But go ahead and 100-0 if you want. I don't play that game, so I don't care.

As long as no money is involved, it's just fun and games. Once money enters the picture, it becomes serious.

Of course, I think Asher was a moron for subscribing, since he knew they'd toss him off in a fit of modding at something he's done (like, flaming people that were flaming him).

It's just a matter of if its worth Asher's time to bother pursuing this. Whether its small claims when he goes home, collecting data on how many subscribers have been claimed over the years and passing that on in a vindictive manner to DanQ's tax masters, etc etc etc. Of course, Asher is the sort of person to be petty and vindictive. It's one of his favorite sports. Which explains why he would subscribe to PolyPlus in the first place--- he was doing his part to keep his favorite troll hunting grounds running. He even said so.

Chris
08-05-2006, 20:45:38
I have yet to see what poly provides for this 50 bucks.

Its a stupid message board.

MarkG
08-05-2006, 20:46:36
Originally posted by Darkstar
Consider, if $30K Canadian/year is the threshold, then all that Apolyton Plus needs to take in is 15K months worth of subscribers sum-total for a year. Spread over 12 months, even an average of just over 1K of subscribers will cross the limit.[/b] 1K? you are again nowhere near the actual numbers....


and of course, now there's the whole "Civ4 convention donations"/"Civ4 con registration fees". apolycon is non-profit (actually it might create a debt :))

MarkG
08-05-2006, 20:49:46
Originally posted by Chris
I have yet to see what poly provides for this 50 bucks.

Its a stupid message board. i would like to note that it's 50$ cause it's the 3-year subscription. asher is a plus member until 2008 :)

Lurker the Second
08-05-2006, 20:51:25
And don't let him go, no matter how much he whines.....

It'll serve him right.

Darkstar
08-05-2006, 20:52:37
The point, MarkG, is that money accumulates over the year. And from what Asher posted, it just needs to hit the 30K/year in income for Canada to care about DanQ's part. And 30K of CANADIAN dollars isn't that much.

If you can't get 1000 posters to pay $2/month, how is it even worth the bother of having the service? Wouldn't begging ever 6 months for bandwidth and hosting costs be less troublesome?

Cons are notorious for creating debt. Especially when they start. My experience is that if you aren't serious about trying to set up an annual event, then it's best to not be staff on a new one!

Chris
08-05-2006, 20:55:49
Originally posted by MarkG
i would like to note that it's 50$ cause it's the 3-year subscription. asher is a plus member until 2008 :) So he gets three years of nothing, what a bargin.

Maybe Ash's crusade will be of some value after all, this sounds more and more like a scam.

Darkstar
08-05-2006, 21:02:16
Chris, you don't like a site offering itself ad-free for a small price? Seems like a trade off that most web sites want us convinced is a good thing.

Chris
08-05-2006, 21:05:26
It sounds like its defrauding its advertizers as well as cheating its members to me.

Asher has the right idea, the heat should be turned up on it.

Darkstar
08-05-2006, 21:11:20
Now, there's an interesting concept. If I was a conspiratorial person, I'd wonder if that's the reason MarkG would bother telling us he has less then 1000 posters that are subscribed to the ad-free version of Apolyton. After all, they are the die hards, the people adding page hits the most often. Only, the ad guys can see how often their ads get served up. As well as click-thru, so it's not defrauding the advertisers.

By not showing those ads, the only people hurt would be DanQ and MarkG, as that's less ads served. But that's why you pay such a steep fee... you are replacing the ad revenue from your lost views. At a very nice markup.

Chris
08-05-2006, 21:16:56
At a fraudulent mark up it appears.

Yes, a little heat and a chat with the taxman does appear to be called for here.

Darkstar
08-05-2006, 21:20:38
A fraudulent mark up? You are surely playing now!

Of course, if the price was cheaper, more people would make use of the Plus service.

Asher
08-05-2006, 21:20:56
By the way, from the Terms of Service:

Commercial hosting provider infrastructure and technical operation for ACS is located in the state of Texas, U.S.A., while the primary administrative/financial contact for ACS is situated in the province of Ontario, Canada; as ACS can be generally accessed from all Internet connected nations, and each jurisdiction has laws that may differ from one another, subscribers agree that all matters relating to access to, or use of, the Service, or any other hyperlinked website, shall be governed by the laws of the Province of Ontario and the federal laws of Canada applicable therein; subscribers also agree and herby submit to the exclusive personal jurisdiction and venue of the courts of the Province of Ontario and acknowledge that the user does so voluntarily and is responsible for complying with local laws

MarkG
08-05-2006, 21:33:20
Originally posted by Darkstar
If you can't get 1000 posters to pay $2/month, how is it even worth the bother of having the service? well for one, people asked for a no-ads choice for some time before we created PLUS....

Asher
08-05-2006, 21:45:27
Originally posted by Solver
Actually... I can not remember PLUS changing its subscription terms retroactively, now that I think of it - being Poly staff, I was, after all, involved to a degree. Got scans :)?
I had to dig into last year's credit card files, but I found it.

And I see Mark is up to his usual professional behavior by lying on Poly, stating they were the same since day 1. :rolleyes:

Scanning it

Asher
08-05-2006, 21:55:19
http://cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~milfordd/poly/p1.png

http://cpsc.ucalgary.ca/~milfordd/poly/p2.png

MOBIUS
08-05-2006, 21:59:12
MarkupG?:cute:

MarkG
08-05-2006, 21:59:19
LOL

and this is the original image that asher posted (the one that showed his photoshopping....)


http://apolyton.net/upload/link.php?file=830_asher_p1.png


come on, even on apolyton we allow html!

Asher
08-05-2006, 22:04:31
Quick, give yourself time to doctor the image!

Asher
08-05-2006, 22:07:38
The only difference between the two versions was one was a B&W doc with 256 colors, leading to a half-meg picture, and the other was a B&W doc with 2 colors, leading to a MUCH smaller picture...

MarkG
08-05-2006, 22:09:28
you still dont notice the white spaces left from the terrible cut/paste you did?

Asher
08-05-2006, 22:10:36
In your image, I see somebody had fun with the rectangle tool in Photoshop...

Colon
08-05-2006, 22:11:32
For every post Markos makes here, MrG should be allowed to make a thread on poly.

MarkG
08-05-2006, 22:13:01
yes, you.... :)

Asher
08-05-2006, 22:14:28
So let me get this straight: you immediately post a message stating how obvious it was it's photoshopped, no one can see the picture for five minutes, then when you post it it's got a couple Photoshopped rectangles to the side?

Solver
08-05-2006, 22:14:29
Okay, that image shows very clearly some editing having been done near the bottom of the page. And that was what was up immediately after the image link was posted. Interesting :).

MarkG
08-05-2006, 22:18:05
Originally posted by Asher
no one can see the picture for five minutesthat was due to the anti-bandwidth-stealing filter of the view.php script for uploaded files

then when you post it it's got a couple Photoshopped rectangles to the side? do you realise that the version i have uploaded has a better quality than the one i supposedly photoshopped? ;)

Asher
08-05-2006, 22:19:34
Originally posted by MarkG
do you realise that the version i have uploaded has a better quality that the one i supposedly photoshopped? ;)
The original links had the 256-color PNG, subsequent links do not. You had the original 256-color one, photoshopped it, hosted it on yours.

Asher
08-05-2006, 22:21:49
After all, your photoshopping trick likely wouldn't work unless you had a high color resolution copy.

MarkG
08-05-2006, 22:21:51
amazing. you have an answer for everything....


now please explain this 2004 archive.org copy of the PLUS details page which has the same TOS as the current one?

http://web.archive.org/web/20040404025936/http://apolyton.net/members/?action=details

Solver
08-05-2006, 22:25:03
:lol:

OK, Asher, now how are you going to get out of that one? And for the record, yes, I saw the original imagine at your URL being photoshopped, the one currently on Poly hosted by Markos. Of course, you can dismiss that as just me lying...

Asher
08-05-2006, 22:25:37
Busted. :gasmaske:

Solver
08-05-2006, 22:28:09
Hell Asher... you're a classic!

Asher
08-05-2006, 22:28:19
I still think you should cancel somebody's subscription when they ask for it.

Asher
08-05-2006, 22:28:46
Originally posted by Solver
Hell Asher... you're a classic!
I try. :beer:

MarkG
08-05-2006, 22:29:10
Originally posted by Asher
Busted. :gasmaske: i suppose you're not going to apologize for calling me a liar? :cute:

Asher
08-05-2006, 22:29:54
I will when I've got my money back.

While you may not be a liar, you're certainly scum in the greedy sense.

MarkG
08-05-2006, 22:30:06
Originally posted by Asher
I still think you should cancel somebody's subscription when they ask for it. we have no problem cancelling your subscription.
doesnt mean it's going to be refunded

just let me know....

Solver
08-05-2006, 22:30:13
So did you actually have a printed TOS copy dating to back then, or did you print one out now and photoshop that :)?

Asher
08-05-2006, 22:31:02
Originally posted by Solver
So did you actually have a printed TOS copy dating to back then, or did you print one out now and photoshop that :)?
Printed one out now and photoshopped. I'm a CS guy, I shouldn't have tried. Maybe should've hired Ixnay. ;)

Asher
08-05-2006, 22:32:04
Originally posted by MarkG
we have no problem cancelling your subscription.
doesnt mean it's going to be refunded

just let me know....

Why are you guys being such tools about this? If you don't want me hanging around, why are you giving me reasons to?

Give me my money back and I won't have reasons to go back there through 2008.

MarkG
08-05-2006, 22:32:22
Originally posted by Asher
I will when I've got my money back.
meanwhile you were wondering a few days ago if i was man enough to admit my mistakes... :hmm:

Solver
08-05-2006, 22:33:17
Originally posted by Asher
Printed one out now and photoshopped. I'm a CS guy, I shouldn't have tried. Maybe should've hired Ixnay. ;)

I'm also a CS guy, which means I know to stay far, far away from any photediting software :smoke:

Asher
08-05-2006, 22:33:18
You still haven't admitted to any mistakes, such as hiring UR and letting him ban me for no reason, or extending my ban on Poly for conduct not on Poly.

I'll apologize when you do, and when you do something to correct your mistakes.

Asher
08-05-2006, 22:37:09
Or I'll try a different approach.

MarkG, I'm sorry I framed you and photoshopped images to lead people to believe that the TOS had changed. The fact is, I hadn't read the TOS as I'm sure most people don't. It doesn't make a lot of sense to lose access to the Poly Plus service when you lose posting access, they seem somewhat unrelated to me. It also doesn't make a lot of sense that you will refuse to give refunds under any circumstances if people cancel their subscription.

So, I made a mistake and I'm sorry.

Asher
08-05-2006, 22:39:38
I also think it's time for you to admit some mistakes:

- Hiring UR as a moderator
- Ignoring obvious cases where UR was showing biased judgement and targetted moderation for two and a half years
- Refusing to add a clause to the forum rules stipulating that posting PM contents in public is grounds for a ban
- Refusing to recognize that you don't actually have a rule against posting PMs in public, you just have one saying in your rules that moderators are never wrong
- Refusing to encourage Ming to act more professional, such as reprimanding him for PMs ignoring complaints and consisting of "blah blah blah"

Colon
08-05-2006, 22:41:18
Originally posted by Asher
Why are you guys being such tools about this? If you don't want me hanging around, why are you giving me reasons to?

Give me my money back and I won't have reasons to go back there through 2008.

Why 2008?