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Gary
28-03-2006, 11:14:19
EU backs European driving licence

European Union ministers have agreed to the creation of a European driving licence which will replace the dozens of different types used across the EU.

The credit card-style licence, with photograph and possibly a microchip, will replace national versions.

The EU hopes the scheme will help prevent fraud and improve security.

Subject to final approval, national licences will be phased out between 2012 and 2032. The new ones will have to be replaced every 10 or 15 years.

"The European driving licence is of vital importance for road safety and for the fight against fraud," EU Transport Commissioner Jacques Barrot said.

"It will make travel around Europe easier and without bureaucratic difficulties. All drivers will have clear, modern licences that will be accepted in all member states."

Some EU countries currently issue driving licences for life. Germany and Austria were reluctant to agree to a licence that had to be regularly renewed.

Member states would have an option to include a microchip to store information about the driver.

The European Commission and the European Parliament are reported to agree with the compromise, so the law is expected to be passed this year.


This looks to me to be yet another example of Big Brother tactics. Clearly the renewal is to keep their database up to date, not anything to do with a need to renew licences. Cost, for no advantage to the public. And chips containing details eh ? An ID card by any other name would smell as shit. Ah but it's all voluntary isn''t it. Same as passports are voluntary, and living is voluntary. Find it hard to believe that in my lifetime we are willingly becoming such an authortarian state spying on our citizens. Becoming the start of another 'Dark Ages'

Gary
28-03-2006, 11:26:49
20 March 2006 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4825130.stm)
27 March 2006 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4849330.stm)

MoSe
28-03-2006, 11:28:30
"national licences will be phased out between 2012 and 2032"
ah ok, I'll be 50-70, I hope I'll be dead by then

MoSe
28-03-2006, 11:30:52
"But German Transport Minister Wolfgang Tiefensee"

Minister "Deeplake"??? That's were all german transports sink! :lol:

MoSe
28-03-2006, 11:35:15
Originally posted by Gary
Clearly the renewal is to keep their database up to date, not anything to do with a need to renew licences.

"Clearly"????
We have no chip, no advanced technology, and yet since always we have to pass a medical test every 10 years to keep our licence valid, for instance if your sight shortened you get added the glasses/lenses clause, and the like.

clearly this has been going on by us because of some obscure scheme...

:rolleyes:

Drekkus
28-03-2006, 11:37:28
Originally posted by Gary
This looks to me to be yet another example of Big Brother tactics. Clearly the renewal is to keep their database up to date, not anything to do with a need to renew licences. Cost, for no advantage to the public. And chips containing details eh ? An ID card by any other name would smell as shit. Ah but it's all voluntary isn''t it. Same as passports are voluntary, and living is voluntary. Find it hard to believe that in my lifetime we are willingly becoming such an authortarian state spying on our citizens. Becoming the start of another 'Dark Ages' I think drivers license renewal is a good thing, people should be tested once in a while to see if they're still fit to drive. If you see the idiots on the roads sometimes.

Plus an extra check to fight misuse of identity cards is nothing bad.

Scabrous Birdseed
28-03-2006, 11:37:31
Right, give one clear example of a potential spying-on-its-own-citizens scenario this will allow that couldn't be done before.

MoSe
28-03-2006, 11:38:56
Member states would have an option to include a microchip to store information about the driver.


OTOH you refused the €uro, so yourenot €uropeons!

:p

Gary
28-03-2006, 13:21:42
Clearly from the posts here most people like governments to monitor them. No accounting for taste I guess.

The article makes no mention of medical tests, or driving retests. Just updating of everything for the new license.

Identity cards are bad. Extra checks are thus worse.

It's not a case of could not be done before. As I'm sure you're aware It's a case of having to make an effort which is justifiable if you suspect someone of something. Rather than have all decent citizens' information there stored for any type of use. The government has no right to that. They are the public's servants not their masters.

Really think that bastard Blair will not put a chip on ? Probably will from the start, or in the unlikely event not then, very soon after, once everyone has got used to the possibility.

Honestly I despair of you lot some times. Non-UK Europeans I understand are already tolerating much and have got used to the idea that's it's ok. But even so, do you have no respect for the rights of the individual to privacy ?

Scabrous Birdseed
28-03-2006, 14:01:25
When did you last have your driver's licence checked? I can't imagine the average driver being checked more than once every four or five years. If you make a traffic violation you're already being registered! How will a chip make a difference? As a monitoring tool of citizens' general activities a driver's licence is pretty useless I'd think.

It's a driver's licence, not a personal spy recorder that sits in everyone's pocket. A microchip stores a limited amount of information securely. It's not a transmitter. The card's a piece of plastic containing identifiers that shows you're capable of driving a vehicle. It's not a compulsory internal passport that the government will demand you show when confronted by labour party officials.

Does your internal sky-is-falling alarm go off on the words microchip and EU? There are considerably greater invasions of privacy all around you.

Gary
28-03-2006, 14:25:53
A chip makes a difference as anything can be put on there. It will prove to be an ID card by compulsion.

A microchip can store more and more information as technology advances. And whilst it is not expected to be a transmitter there is no reason it can't be. Not that I've considered that, but yes you make a good point. Could easily include RFID also.

But even without that it's insidious enough.

The existing card is an indication that you are capable of driving a vehicle. Anything more does not add to that.

My 'alarm' goes off every time I hear of yet another scheme for monitoring us private individuals. If these schemes seem to you to often involve the EU then that can only be because of the frequency that they are involved in them. They're not selected for specifically.

Scabrous Birdseed
28-03-2006, 15:02:24
What information would the government want to store on a card that gets "read" by an official once every four or five years?

Scabrous Birdseed
28-03-2006, 15:03:52
What information besides what's written on your card would they want to keep in the chip anyway? Wouldn't a database be considerably more efficient if they wanted to monitor your every move?

Gary
28-03-2006, 15:22:39
You think it isn't going to be tied to a database as well ? It's all part of a group of measures that work in tandem. Thus the many complaints about the whole way this is going. To try to ridicule one bit as not being important, is the tactic of chipping away legitimate objections until nothing is left. The authorities should keep their nose out of decent folk's business.

Funkobot
28-03-2006, 15:54:18
Muttley, you snickering, floppy eared hound.
When courage is needed, you're never around.
Those medals you wear on your moth-eaten chest
Should be there for bungling at which you are best.

So, stop that pigeon
Stop that pigeon
Stop that pigeon
Stop that pigeon
Stop that pigeon
Stop that pigeon
Stop that pigeon
Howwww!

Nab him
Jab him
Tab him
Grab him
Stop that pigeon now.

You, Zilly, stop sneaking, it's not worth the chance.
For you'll be returned by the seat of your pants.
And Clunk, you invent me a thingamabob
That catches that pigeon or I lose my job.

So, stop that pigeon
Stop that pigeon
Stop that pigeon
Stop that pigeon
Stop that pigeon
Stop that pigeon
Stop that pigeon
Howwww!

Nab him
Jab him
Tab him
Grab him
Stop that pigeon now.

Darkstar
28-03-2006, 23:08:45
Most of the US States renew drivers licenses between every 2 to ever 6. It's not really a matter of public safety, as they don't bother actually testing, just updating the picture and physical description. So it is primarily getting more local and state fees out of the public.

Governments always think they are the master to the public, and invariably make themselves such. It's the cycle of government. Eventually, the government falls, and the cycle begins anew.

Scabrous Birdseed
29-03-2006, 09:40:20
Gary, please worry about legitimate privacy issues arising from changes in legislature and principle application, not bloody chips on ID cards. Honestly, cards are the least of any issue and you're obfuscating all of the real privacy problems by crying wolf at something so inconsequential.

All over the western world the state now has the authority and technical ability to track your bank transactions, listen in on your mobile phone calls and check their locations, monitor your internet usage etc. etc., in some countries without any criminal suspicion. In the US they're even authorised to check your library records and use of public computers if they chose, and librarians are not allowed to tell you that they have.

In the UK you've got more CCTV cameras than anywhere else on the planet, all easily checkable by the government. The EU has new directives requiring all ISPs to store everyone's internet traffic for years. Here in sweden new laws are being driven through that allow the government to wiretap, place hidden microphones in peoples homes etc., all of which has been banned previously.

The governments of the world are all encroaching on your privacy in REAL ways, and all you bloody harp on about is a couple of pieces of plastic. Honestly.

Gary
29-03-2006, 10:00:33
Bloody chips on ID cards is a legitimate privacy issue. It is part of the insidious creep that tends to just get accepted, until everything has been changed. That's a very real issue.

Yes, all the other issues you mention are important as well, but that doesn't mean one should allow this creep to go on ignored. To do so means the public just sleep walks into authortarian state apparently willingly, or at least with tacit approval.

Debaser
29-03-2006, 10:17:07
Loads of cards have chips on these days, there aren't always sinister undertones. I imagine your bank card has a chip on it now so you can type in a pin number at checkouts instead of signing something. Is that a legitimate privacy issue too? No, it prevents fraud and improves security just like the proposed drivers liscences.

That tin foil hat does suit you though.

Funkobot
29-03-2006, 10:22:34
Celebrating when we executed the guy who tried to blow up parliment!

We actually had him hanged drawn and quartered but in the celebrations we always burn his effigy in the fire.

MoSe
29-03-2006, 11:11:31
Funkobot is spot on with his illuminating comments as usual!
Indeed with a proper ID tracking system in place, Fawkes wouldn't have even got near.

Can't wait when we'll all have a GPS implant, and we'll be administered a mild shock everytime we tread where we're not supposed to.

Ginfizwithatwist
29-03-2006, 11:18:10
At the most all that will be stored on the license is name, dob, address, country of issuer, classification of type of vehicle you are allowed to drive and any offences held against your name.

I agree with scabrous- the govenment already monitor us in far more insidious ways- I know for a fact that the secret service have monitoring posts at named cable tv company sites so a few details on a driving licence is pathetically insignificant to get worked up about

Gary
29-03-2006, 11:19:43
The bank card with a PIN is not an unnecessary change by government. It has a clear legitimate use. But it has the potential for misuse too, not that one expects banks to have the same aims as governments.

The driving license prevents no fraud nor increases any security.

Feel free to ignore the threats if you like, but appreciate if you kept your hats to yourself.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
29-03-2006, 11:28:23
I really don't understand your card-phobia (be it passport, ID or driver's licence). I'd rather be freaked out by surveillance cams everywhere. Or the cell phone connection records. Or the fingerprinting of visitors by that semifascist regime across the pond.

Maybe it's just cultural preference what freaks us out.

Funkobot
29-03-2006, 11:40:39
I found out the other day that France is the most popular tourist destination in the world. 77 million visitors a year. America was on about 50 million.

MoSe
29-03-2006, 11:58:23
does that make 500 million fingerprints?

Funkobot
29-03-2006, 12:27:03
Do you just make your information up Darkstar? 60 million ish votes for Bush 55 million ish for Kerry.

Here's the figures (there's even a picture to make it easy for you)

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/vote2004/results.htm

(even Fox (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,137463,00.html) agrees.

I fail to see how 60 million out of 300 million is a huge majority.

Turnout was 60% of potential electors - a great turnout for a US election. Close elections always get big turnouts.

Gary
29-03-2006, 12:53:15
You think I like them as well Dyl ? No I disapprove. The US has opted not to have the pleasure of my company since they started that one.

That said I can understand limited retention of call records for access only under high level justified approval in ingoing criminal investigations, but not as a general free for all without restriction.

Funkobot
29-03-2006, 12:54:03
I should probably read the stuff under the cartoon though, find out about things like holidays. :D

Darkstar
29-03-2006, 17:19:34
Originally posted by Debaser
Loads of cards have chips on these days, there aren't always sinister undertones. I imagine your bank card has a chip on it now so you can type in a pin number at checkouts instead of signing something. Is that a legitimate privacy issue too? No, it prevents fraud and improves security just like the proposed drivers liscences.

This is not true. It turns out that it makes fraud easier. Including your pin number on your card makes it easier for someone that steals it to use it, and the system to think you are the legit owner. This is a huge problem, and has been known since the first security conference that actually decided to look at how easy it is to access and alter the info on such things.

Then there is the procedural issues. Many places store your security codes from the card along with the card's details, making it extremely easy for hackers to get all the good details at once. They can then use that info to make their own cards with that info, or they can sell it to other criminals who then make their cards and clean you out.

Debaser
29-03-2006, 17:27:17
Really? Well I've heard nothing about these supposed problems, and I a quick Google doesn't turn up too much either.

A link if you would be so kind...

Darkstar
29-03-2006, 17:28:40
Originally posted by Gary
You think I like them as well Dyl ? No I disapprove. The US has opted not to have the pleasure of my company since they started that one.

That said I can understand limited retention of call records for access only under high level justified approval in ingoing criminal investigations, but not as a general free for all without restriction.

In time Gary, it won't matter. Your prints, consisting of fingers, palms, and feet, as well as your DNA profile, will eventually end up in a law enforcement DB at some point in the future, and that will be shared with all other countries that agree to share the same level of data on their citizenry. It's a done deal, as far as Western Intel and Law Enforcement communities are concerned. Just a matter of being the next 10 to 15 years.

Call providers need to retain the records for non-criminal issues already. It can take years to clear up bad billing issues in the worst of cases, and if the call providers dump those records too early, judges will then side with the enraged customer, as the company can no longer prove their side of the story (and looks like they are covering up their own mistakes). Then there is data mining issues, trend spotting, etc, so phone companies like retain their records. And since the age of competition in the US, they also like to keep them to prove their claims that more customers prefer their service and stay with them, that they have less dropped calls, etc etc etc. Law Enforcement merely taps what is already there. Just like in the case of Google. Now, if the companies didn't retain those records in the first place, then governments wouldn't have realized it can easily be done, and then they wouldn't be dictating how long records must be retained at a minimum.

Darkstar
29-03-2006, 17:46:20
Debaser, what examples do you want? The procedural error of companies storing your info from the card (including your pin number) and then hackers grabbing all that info and trading/using it has been in the news for the past 2 months on News.Com.

The latest story in the bunch is:
http://news.com.com/U.S.+arrests+7+on+charges+of+credit+data+trading/2100-7348_3-6055261.html?tag=cd.top
(That will go away in a week or so).

That story barely mentions it, as its focus is on the 7 getting busted on a black market credit card/debit card trading forum. But the cops found the board because they were tracking down where all the digits from the hack came from. But by back tracing the story, it should be easy to find the 12 (IIRC) people arrested in Britain, Holland, and Spain that were actually using fabricated ATM cards using the data stolen from the cash register providers, and I should be able to dig up a fair amount of links if you are really interested.

The 14 or so different techniques published on how to read and alter at will info on any known smart card as figured out by various security researchers has been disappearing off the net, thanks to "9/11 security concerns", DMCA lawsuits by VISA/Mastercard (and CitiBank), invocations of the Patriot Act, and other various legal nuisances (ie, threats of aiding and abedding, various conspiracy charges, etc). Finding live links to that info legally can still be done, but it is vary non-trivial at this time. The trick is that if the info is on the card, they have to use fairly simple encryption that a whole host of equipment can access. If you can get ahold of that equipment, you can access that info at will (and that equipment is sold commercially and on large scales, so it's easily done legally and available for cheap). It's also easily done to make new blanks, and to program your own smart cards. If the chip is too smart (ie, Sun's Java SmartChip technology), a hacker can literally reprogram the chip (it's just a simple embedded computer), and have the chip itself inform any interested person with physical access to the card's chip (ie, they have your card) of all its info, protecting encryption, etc etc etc.

There was a recent article on News.com about how it turns out to be fairly trivial to reprogam RFID chips. Good for cypherpunks (as they'll reprogram their RFIDs to be something else or just go blank), but bad for everyone else. The article focused on how that could be used to spread viruses by RFID chips, but as the chips currently only have something like 256 bytes, that's not enough storage to actually plant a decent virus into most RFID scanners. I mention this because RFID chip technology is often the "smart chip" in things like credit/debit cards (when producers don't go for big chips), and it would probably be what you'd use in a driver's licence.

Funkobot
29-03-2006, 17:47:03
Darkstar could probably come in with a 24,000 word epic about this. :)

Darkstar
29-03-2006, 17:57:16
Not on this. I've forgotten most of what I've read on the matter, but given a week of mining through my private article mass on this, and checking their original publishing sites, I might be able to post a decent set of links. Most of that info gets quietly removed these days. Between the security providers not wanting to look bad, the governments wanting that info obfuscated, and the researchers either scared to publish (due to civil or governmental action) or wanting to leverage their discoveries into serious money--- it disappears faster then a prom dress at an after prom party.

Nav
29-03-2006, 22:20:11
That Was A Bot.

:lol:

Qaj the Fuzzy Love Worm
30-03-2006, 00:36:28
A remarkably accurate bot :)

Darkstar
30-03-2006, 03:14:29
Nav, I know. But I was bored at work and wanted to look busy.

Nav
30-03-2006, 08:06:07
Sorry just had to say that. A remarkably ironic bot as well. ;)

MoSe
30-03-2006, 08:29:27
Now, can't you now answer to something, even if it's only a bot? especially when what the bot said it's right! :p

Funkobot
30-03-2006, 08:52:03
Sounds about right.

MoSe
30-03-2006, 09:23:06
he's an artificial sentient being!

Funkobot
30-03-2006, 09:32:03
Do you deliberately misinterpret people?

He's only saying that we should be able to tell them they are being stupid fuckers, because stupid fuckers are bad not that they shouldn't be allowed to be stupid fuckers. :beer: