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View Full Version : The bad news is American College grads are stupid,


HelloKitty
21-01-2006, 20:08:17
The good news is the average american is fucking retarded!!!

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/EDUCATION/01/20/literacy.college.students.ap/index.html

Way to paint a good light on the subject CNN.

Scabrous Birdseed
21-01-2006, 20:40:25
Funny, that's the kind of skills that should set appart a reasonably educated person from someone with less knowledge.

Our SAT equivalent is based solely on this kind of task.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
21-01-2006, 20:52:18
"The good news is the average american is fucking retarded!!!"

Yeah, running that under "There was brighter news" is a killer. :lol:

Dyl Ulenspiegel
21-01-2006, 21:01:57
We'd expect those skills from highschool graduates when they enter university, but I'd say that 10 % are functionally illiterate, and up to 50 % have serious problems dealing with minor complexity.

What amazes me most is, however, that after years of studying, about 80 % are incapable of writing an academic thesis without momentous struggle and intensive care.

LoD
21-01-2006, 22:12:29
Really? I had to do some peer reviews of Bachelor's and seminar papers lately and I don't think tha situation is that tragic. I'd say the majority of the papers can be classified at least as "decent". However, I'm guesssing the trend may be different in law papers.

HelloKitty
21-01-2006, 23:04:33
Well in the US it is bad enough that about 1/3rd of incoming freshmen need remedial English.

Why do none of them have it on their transcripts? All the Unis changed it to "Writing Workshop" so the student doesn't know how retarded they are.

I am amazed every year at how poor the writing and math skills of science majors are. After 2-3 years in college they still can't do semi-complex algebra.

JM^3
22-01-2006, 03:48:48
note, if you ask me at the wrong time (when I am flustered) I can't even add...

Jon Miller
(and I have done advanced topology and algebra and anaylsis)

HelloKitty
22-01-2006, 06:12:31
Originally posted by JM^3
note, if you ask me at the wrong time (when I am flustered) I can't even add...

Jon Miller
(and I have done advanced topology and algebra and anaylsis)

Good thing your grammar is perfect! See how life balances things out?

TV4Fun
22-01-2006, 06:22:02
College is way too easy. I completely blew off my math and physics classes last semester and got Bs in both. And I didn't even do half the writeups in my physics lab and got an A in that.

LoD
22-01-2006, 11:17:04
And what college are you studying at, TV4Fun?

KrazyHorse@home
22-01-2006, 11:37:00
Originally posted by TV4Fun
College is way too easy. I completely blew off my math and physics classes last semester and got Bs in both. And I didn't even do half the writeups in my physics lab and got an A in that.

That's because most people are complete idiots when it comes to the real mathematical sciences, so intro classes are dumbed down ridiculously. :)

Alexander's Horse
22-01-2006, 12:59:04
The young people I work with, the best and brightest, strike me as rather dim.

They are very conservative and into following rules.

I find it quite dispiriting.

LoD
22-01-2006, 13:18:03
I'm starting to think that is, ironically, the result of "Western", skill-oriented (as opposed to knowledge-oriented) form of education.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
22-01-2006, 13:22:43
Originally posted by LoD
Really? I had to do some peer reviews of Bachelor's and seminar papers lately and I don't think tha situation is that tragic. I'd say the majority of the papers can be classified at least as "decent". However, I'm guesssing the trend may be different in law papers.

Finished papers, I presume. The real problem is when people start and have no clue.... when they put in enough work (2-3 times scheduled time) and get help, they usually turn out as "decent"....

Dyl Ulenspiegel
22-01-2006, 13:55:21
Originally posted by LoD
I'm starting to think that is, ironically, the result of "Western", skill-oriented (as opposed to knowledge-oriented) form of education.

I think it's just a problem of the value of education. Most people see it as job training, not as education. So they lack an interest in deeper understanding and reflection. Which comes back to haunt them when their job demands things beyond their little box.

Scabrous Birdseed
22-01-2006, 13:57:18
Which in turn is surely the fault of you fucking market-oriented liberals, isn't it?

Dyl Ulenspiegel
22-01-2006, 14:01:58
No, just a little market failure in the education sector. Markets only work in some aspects there.

And what reforms have been enacted there under the label "liberal" are nothing but subsidies for corporate and political cronies' interests.

Alexander's Horse
22-01-2006, 14:58:13
Originally posted by Dyl Ulenspiegel
I think it's just a problem of the value of education. Most people see it as job training, not as education.

In essence this is the problem.

Beta1
22-01-2006, 16:02:21
depressingly I sat through of an hour of "how school lessons should be work related learning" last week...

TV4Fun
22-01-2006, 20:26:59
Originally posted by LoD
And what college are you studying at, TV4Fun? UNR

Dyl Ulenspiegel
22-01-2006, 21:44:48
Originally posted by Beta1
depressingly I sat through of an hour of "how school lessons should be work related learning" last week...

Well, depends on the school. Vocational training is not inferior.
The only problem is that a university education and secondary education leading to university is not job training, but academic education. Skills trimmed for use in a specific job have nothing to do with acadamic education.

Scabrous Birdseed
22-01-2006, 22:11:52
I can't see education as being totally separated from the rest of society. If the message put across is that the ultimate goal in society is economic growth, that people not gainfully employed either have empty lives or are immoral scroungers, that less people should go to university because there is not enough room to employ all graduates in qualified work, then it's not exactly a political system that encourages personal development for its own sake is it?

JM^3
22-01-2006, 22:12:13
some US college s are good, others are atrococius..

JM

King_Ghidra
23-01-2006, 09:21:38
i'm certainly feeling that from your post

Dyl Ulenspiegel
23-01-2006, 09:23:21
The Jon Miller Spelling College

Dyl Ulenspiegel
23-01-2006, 09:24:15
Atrococius (name), roman general infamous for his brutality against civilians.

King_Ghidra
23-01-2006, 09:25:12
Originally posted by Scabrous Birdseed
I can't see education as being totally separated from the rest of society. If the message put across is that the ultimate goal in society is economic growth, that people not gainfully employed either have empty lives or are immoral scroungers, that less people should go to university because there is not enough room to employ all graduates in qualified work, then it's not exactly a political system that encourages personal development for its own sake is it?

i very much agree

i'm very much against 'vocational' education as a principle in itself, even if it appeared to be useful, which it doesn't, in that most jobs require unique skills or knowledge which a vocational education probably won't prepare them for anyway

Dyl Ulenspiegel
23-01-2006, 09:56:08
Originally posted by Scabrous Birdseed
I can't see education as being totally separated from the rest of society.

It isn't, but (unless you subscribe to the US model) a society is more than GDP.

"then it's not exactly a political system that encourages personal development for its own sake is it?"

That's not mutually exclusive IMO. The personal development through academic education is a value per se, but it is also of economic and social benefit.

Nills Lagerbaak
23-01-2006, 09:58:05
What? Vocational training is about providing specifically the skills needed to do a particular job.
All the old polytechnics used to provide decent "vocational" training, now that they were forced to become universities, teaching (e.g.) "Theory of plumbing" we have a drastic skills shortage and pumbers can charge 70/hour!

-Sorry - in response to KG's post

King_Ghidra
23-01-2006, 10:30:05
sure that kind of vocational training is fine, but what worries me is the bleed-in of that kind of concept to the lower, younger education levels. I don't think people should be choosing their gcse's at 14 with a view to head towards a certain occupation in life.

obviously there's nothing wrong with someone going to college to learn to be a plumber

and i don't completely buy the idea that the change of polys becoming unis is responsible for a lack of plumbers. many societal fators are at work here.

Nills Lagerbaak
23-01-2006, 10:33:44
I see. Yeah, I completely agree youngsters shouldn't be made to chose so early. Hell I think having to only chose 3 maybe 4 A-levels is nuts!

Yeah, I'm sure there are other factors for the decline in skilled people, but the effective dumbing down of what the pollys were good at hasn't helped.

MDA
23-01-2006, 13:40:01
the first year of college is just a summary of 4 years of high school - at least at WVU :p

Japher
23-01-2006, 14:48:17
dude... those credit card applications are confussing

so are those tests that test your reading ability

LoD
23-01-2006, 15:30:29
Originally posted by Dyl Ulenspiegel
Finished papers, I presume. The real problem is when people start and have no clue.... when they put in enough work (2-3 times scheduled time) and get help, they usually turn out as "decent"....

We have something called "Introduction into Scientific Research" in the 1st semester, which basically requires you to write a 10-page seminar paper and do a presentation. Isn't this required in all Austrian unis?

Originally posted by Dyl Ulenspiegel
I think it's just a problem of the value of education. Most people see it as job training, not as education. So they lack an interest in deeper understanding and reflection. Which comes back to haunt them when their job demands things beyond their little box.

That too.

Originally posted by TV4Fun
UNR

University of Noxious Ramming?

Dyl Ulenspiegel
23-01-2006, 18:16:16
Originally posted by LoD
We have something called "Introduction into Scientific Research" in the 1st semester, which basically requires you to write a 10-page seminar paper and do a presentation. Isn't this required in all Austrian unis?

Depends. We have courses requiring written exams on cases in the 1st year, no seminar papers until 3rd year.

HelloKitty
23-01-2006, 18:24:06
My undergrad required a year of english, 2 years of foriegn lang, with a fluency test at the end, and 5 additional "Writing intensive" courses that involved a minimum of 5 30+ page papers each.

Where I teach, a research Uni rather than teaching college, is more typical of the US. We require one semester of English. Writing workshop (the nice name for remedial retard english) counts.

Japher
23-01-2006, 18:25:11
I'm an engineer I don't need to know how to read good

HelloKitty
23-01-2006, 18:28:49
What happens when you design HAL and he encripts the cargo bay doors where the code is properly diagraming a sentence?

Fucking engineers. Thanks to your poor English man will be wiped out.

Japher
23-01-2006, 18:29:53
If you nonengineers would of just learnt Yoda speak!

TV4Fun
23-01-2006, 19:30:40
Originally posted by LoD
University of Noxious Ramming? Google is your friend.

Japher
23-01-2006, 20:24:41
Nevada Reno... Party!

devilmunchkin
23-01-2006, 21:01:09
i think it depends on what you take in college.
Where I went, business student and physical education student were known for being slackers and partiers. Now you take literature majors, physics/chemistry.. they actually knew stuff. N ONE had developed street smarts as an incoming freshman and those skills were only developed by how much the parental units cut their purse strings as opposed to what was learned in a classroom. The rich kids whose parents supported them during college largely became people who would need to work for their parents or continue to have their parents support (to some degree) after graduation.

Kids whose parents did not support them did much better, often times showing more initiative because they realized they'd better get off their ass if they wanted to eat.

disclaimer: this was my personal experience.

Koshko
24-01-2006, 06:58:15
Yeah it does depend on your major. I mean some majors you can get away with simple algebra classes but have to take a load of english classes. Others you only need to take Eng 101 and 102 but have to take 2 Calculus classes.

Koshko
24-01-2006, 07:01:18
Ps are you really surprised that our college graduates are, by and large, a bunch of fucking morons. Remember that the vast majority of them have gone through 13 years of USA schooling to get TO college in the first place. There's a reason why our high school seniors score lower than the average 8th grader in most European countries. Our education system has been massively dumbed down in the past 30+ years at least.

Diss
24-01-2006, 07:06:40
Originally posted by TV4Fun
UNR

sounds like you picked a good state to go to college. :beer:

Diss
24-01-2006, 07:10:56
Originally posted by Japher
dude... those credit card applications are confussing

so are those tests that test your reading ability

I don't think I ever put in an application for a credit card.

I asked my bank (credit union) for a credit card, and they gave me one. I pay it off in full every month. They work fine for me. I have no idea what the interest rate is. I don't care.

TV4Fun
24-01-2006, 07:53:06
Originally posted by Diss
sounds like you picked a good state to go to college. :beer: it's the one I live in. :beer: :beer:

shagnasty
24-01-2006, 09:05:37
Surveys are a load of wank anyway. Perhaps whoever carried it out only spoke to 4 two-year students, and 2 of them were brainless twats. we'll never know.

MDA
24-01-2006, 12:30:14
you can also watch the little bastards cheat on college exams and no one will do a damn thing to them if it might "threaten their tenure"

shagnasty
24-01-2006, 14:25:38
So if I was to collapse in a blubbering heap of mush on the floor whimpering and sniveling that my "tenure has been threatened", would I be able to sue said threatener for vast amounts of lovely cash?

MDA
24-01-2006, 14:36:36
sorry, I meant the professor won't do anything because they think taking action against cheaters could ruin their chances at getting tenure.

shagnasty
24-01-2006, 14:40:17
Sue the prof. for not taking action against the cheaters. Yaaaay.

TV4Fun
24-01-2006, 17:31:24
Couldn't they just ask a tenured professor to say something?

MDA
24-01-2006, 18:19:35
its not saying something, its showing up to student court to testify to the cheating

they can't be bothered, much too busy

devilmunchkin
24-01-2006, 21:07:11
actually shag, i can believe that survey. At the college I went to, a good portion of the females did not go there to get an education..they went to college to find a husband.

TV4Fun
24-01-2006, 21:24:54
yeah, and a lot of guys go to college just to get laid. :p

TV (not actually one of those guys, but it's not a bad perk)

Diss
24-01-2006, 21:58:58
Originally posted by devilmunchkin
actually shag, i can believe that survey. At the college I went to, a good portion of the females did not go there to get an education..they went to college to find a husband.

uh, which college is this again. :).

devilmunchkin
24-01-2006, 23:04:10
Baylor U .... baptists...

HelloKitty
24-01-2006, 23:21:57
Originally posted by MDA
you can also watch the little bastards cheat on college exams and no one will do a damn thing to them if it might "threaten their tenure"

Our department fixed that. There are staff that organize all the classes and deal with the admin and the faculty only teach. For the core classes sometimes staff do both (I hate my title) but we have no tenure conflicts.

Sadly the result of failing a kid for cheating is often a lawsuit and the UNi usually caves regardless of the circumstances.

Reason for the parents suing in one was that now their duaghter will never get into med school because we failed her and put the fact she got kicked out for cheating on her perm record.

The Uni caved in.

She didn't get into med school though. Most of the time when the profs agree to write recommendatiosn one of the people in the office does it for them to sign.

We sat around and did that one as a group.

Funko
25-01-2006, 11:08:24
Is it un-PC to suggest that we send so many people to university now it's not a surprise that some are a bit thick?