PDA

View Full Version : Vanguard (the "savior") of MMOs Beta1 starts.


HelloKitty
18-10-2005, 03:36:09
The Friends and family Beta 0 is over and they are sending out info on how to register for Beta 1.

Basicly for those of you interested go register at the forums and look for a confirmation e-mail ina week or two.

From there you may or may not get into beta.

You may be required to do a phone interview with a Dev to get into Beta 1. Later Betas who knows?

This is the game thats being made by the creaters of EQ1 before it was Verant, long before verent was bought by sony. They also have a few original UO members (not Raph though, he is a big wig now).

Its supposed to be the game that MMO players have been waiting for without the dumbing down that the other games have.

Anyway, regester on the boards here.

http://www.vanguardsagaofheroes.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=38

It is refreshing to see a site where the devs communicate but are not taking any suggestions. They have a vision(tm) and are sticking to it.

The CEO of Sigil alone posts about 4 times a day average, thanks players, amkes fun of people in beta, talks about screw ups etc.

He also said they will be inviting Many more people than, for example, EQ1 did when they went to beta 1. Fromt he numbers he game about 1 in 50 would get in if they used EQ numbers, but each part of the world will need more people than that to test, so it could end up being a 1 in 20 or better chance of getting in.

Mightytree
18-10-2005, 04:26:55
So many ultra-hard hardcore people in one place, circlejerking about how WoW is the spawn of satan. Amazing. I bet they all play it secretly under their pillows anyway. :)

fp
18-10-2005, 06:03:20
A phone interview to get on the Beta? :lol: Could they be any more pretentious?

Kitsuki
18-10-2005, 09:33:29
The beauty of World of Warcraft *is* that casual players can still have a good time in it - and that's why it blows the rest of the MMO fuckers out of the water.

HelloKitty
18-10-2005, 16:39:34
And the beauty of Vangueard is supposed to be that they are catering to the MMO market, not the general market. Meaning a game with depth and challenge without the dumbing down that WoW has, EQ2 has to a lesser degree, and all the other games are suffering from. But thats a good criticism of a game with no mention of its features or concepts at all.

And yeah FP, they have been a freak show about the NDA, interviews on the phone, faxing copies of your State IDs and the NDA. They are taking things really seriously.

As for what Blizzard people think since we have WoW fans, here is the write up on FOH from a while ago by Blizzard's WoW itemization guy (comes up with all the "phat loots" and some stories) and the guy that works with players to balance raid content (i.e. selecting what guilds (well, guild really since its alwayst eh same one) get early access to "test" the content, so they can beat it the day it comes out... err I mean make sure its working properly. He is the guy who used to run FOH before EQ banned him for exploiting. Now he works for Blizzard the same way LOS and AL members were given jobs.

It’s no secret that I have some friends that work at Sigil. It should also come as no surprise that if you give friends enough alcohol, eventually they’ll agree to almost anything. In this case, ‘anything’ became “LET ME SEE YOUR GAME DAMNIT!”

After the 12th or 13th Sake shot I took on the persona of Yoda. “Your game, see it I will.” “Game you have not! Sux0r you do!” Yep, I used the old Jedi Mind trick, Yoda, and a poorly hidden insult. CHA-CHING! The piece of paper dropped before me like so many cloth caps off an untuned uber mob. I made quick work of the NDA, a signature here, my firstborn there, etc... and was then told to wait patiently for my invitation. And wait I did…

Sometimes, I’d get a phone call from Bill in the middle of the day. Bill would tell me things like, ‘Soon man, soon.’ I’d tell him things like, ‘Are you calling me from a phone booth, dude? I hear traffic in the background and I dare say, I hear a hobo eating a ham sandwich.” (My sense of hearing is supernatural and a thing of legend in parts of the Middle-East, but I digress)

After months of waiting, I finally received a message from Cindy Bowens, the Community Manager for Sigil, to set up a meeting at their headquarters. A time and date was set for Friday, August 29th at 11:00am. Lunch was to be included! I figured after they showed me the concept art for their game, I’d at least score some phat lewtz in the form of food.

I woke up that Friday feeling refreshed. I took a nice long shower, shaved, put on a little of the man lotion, and got in the car. Forty-five minutes later I was in Carlsbad, California. Apparently, in my haste to get down there, I was early – by about an hour and a half. I decided to take a drive around Carlsbad and check out some of the sights. Much to my dismay, there were no sights in Carlsbad. I spent the next hour sitting on my ass at a nearby deli drinking coffee and quelling my nicotine habit. As 11:00am rolled around, I got back into my car and headed to Sigil HQ.

Hidden away in an industrial area of Carlsbad lays Sigil. I parked my car outside the building and attempted to locate the front door. I saw some couches and a table behind one door so I figured I was in the right place. I opened the door, walked in, and there was Cindy! Jackpot! Part one of my mission accomplished – finding the place and entering. Cindy pleasantly greeted me and began to round up some folks. At this point my mind started wandering. I recalled that I have undoubtedly called at least 80% of these guys a [insert insult here] at one point or another. Panic started to set in. What if this wasn’t a ‘meeting’ to see their game at all but just a good old fashioned beat down???? I weighed my options. I could probably take out one, maybe two of them, but then what??? I’d surely get stormed by the rest, unless they attacked me like plucky ninjas, one by one. What were the odds of that happening? My thoughts were interrupted when Brad McQuaid (Aradune) came out to greet me. Soon practically the whole damn team was there, Jeff Butler, Bill Fisher, John Capozzi, Lawrence Poe, etc... etc… etc… I was sure a beat down was coming.

Relief set in, though, when Jeff Butler started up ‘The Game.’ Right away I was pretty much in awe as I didn’t think they’d have anything to start up, let alone an actual working game. Boy was I in for a surprise.

That’s right boys and girls, all you naysayers and shit-talkers, Sigil does indeed have a product. Not just a product either, a product with thousands if not tens-of-thousands of man hours invested in it already.

So the game booted up and Jeff started taking me through a VERY small portion of the gameworld. I say very small but it was actually a very large play area. The game world is so massive that this section and rather other sections that I also saw were very small in context.

The graphics were unlike anything I have seen to date. Stunning visually – my words could do them no justice, plus I’d probably be sued for violating the NDA ;) Lighting effects, textures, bump mapping, all that stuff, it was INSANITY.

So what though, right? It’s a pretty game, lots of those around right? Wrong. This game was fleshed out and built from the ground UP. These guys put so much work into getting the game built that it would be impossible to put everything in this update; and also illegal. Thousands and thousands of pages of gameplay design and documentation - I’m talking massive BOOKS, full of lore, maps, class descriptions, races, monsters, everything. You won’t see any MOONS popping up out of nowhere in this game. Expansions, additions, extensions, all thoughtfully planned out.

Anyhow, Brad and Jeff demonstrated a little tandem grouping and slaying for me in game and then it was lunch time. We headed on over to ‘Claim Jumper’ and ate around 5-6 pounds of food each and then headed back to the studio.

I was then given a thorough tour of the Art Department, where all of the artists work (imagine that!), and received a sneak peek at some very hush-hush features. I was blown away by the work these guys put out. I met the great Keith Parkinson, who seemed even more enthusiastic about the game than I was, and he’d been working on it for over a year already. I stood in awe, watching over the shoulders of these guys as they put the game to life before my very eyes. It was truly amazing.

I took a brief step into the Designer’s Dojo where I got to see the world map and shoot the shit with the guys and hear a little more about their vision. By the way, did I mention this game was huge? When I saw the world map and they showed me the area(s) which were shown to me in game, it really, REALLY, gave me a scope of just how damn huge this game is going to be upon completion.

I also took a walkthrough the coder’s/programmer’s offices, or should I say dungeon. I nearly lost my damn arm! You gotta keep those guys fed FFS!

Anyways, all in all it was a real wake up call for me. The folks at Sigil already have a quality product on their hands and I cannot wait until they release some information to the public so all of you can have the pleasure of getting a glimpse of what I got to see during my visit. Thanks again to Cindy, Bill, Brad, Jeff, and everyone else working at Sigil that made Furor’s trip to the company a genuine kick ass time.

For further information, you can tune in to Sigil's web site at www.SigilGames.com. They have an assortment of message boards there where they interact with the public on a daily basis.

HelloKitty
18-10-2005, 16:46:29
Oh, and let me reiterate something I have aid in other threads.

I am prepared to be completely dissapointed in Vanguard.

If they pull off what they are talking about it will be an amazing game.

However the list of promises and things they are talking about seem more like a MMO version of Black and white.

fp
18-10-2005, 17:52:08
As far as I can tell, a "hardcore" MMO gamer (hardcore gamers of any genre I suppose) seem to be the ones who treat the game like their job and suck all the fun out of it. You know, the ones who claim that people who play the came casually don't "deserve" any in-game rewards because they haven't "worked" to earn it.

Some dumb-ass on the official WoW boards responded to somebody saying that he preferred random loot distribution by remarking "That's stupid - it'd be just like handing out the salaries randomly at work!". Someone needs to take that poor lad aside and tell him that the computer game is not his job and those shiny bits of loot are not his salary for all the endless toil he is putting in.

If Vanguard is a game for those people then I'll hate it. If it's a genuine attempt to advance the MMO genre and bring something new and interesting to the table, and appeal to a range of people, then it could be really interesting. Have you got any links about the proposed features etc Kitty? Or is that top-secret classified information? ;)

It doesn't have to dumb things down to appeal to a wide player base. It just has to be really really fucking good. Everyone likes good games.

HelloKitty
18-10-2005, 19:27:08
I agree it doesn't have to be dumbed down to appeal to a wide player base, but that is what the current generation of MMOs have done. WoW is a EQ1 clone with a very dumbed down gameplay and reward system but new graphics. GW is great pvp with an extremely dumbed down leveling system, EQ2 is a game trying to figure out what they want to be and have half their stuff dumbed down and the other half not, I would call COH dumbed down, but its not really since they were going for a very specific feel and got it,etc.

If Vanguard is a game for those people then I'll hate it. If it's a genuine attempt to advance the MMO genre and bring something new and interesting to the table, and appeal to a range of people, then it could be really interesting. Have you got any links about the proposed features etc Kitty? Or is that top-secret classified information?

As for the features, follow the Vanguard link above to their boards or go to the main age. Tons of info has been released now, just not the exact specifics on how it works. Except for the graphics engine and how it renders textures, that was damn innovative.

The diplomacy system is the "no one else has" feature they have and are keeping details sparse about, but what they have put out seems interesting.

They are not targetting the "l33t" crowd, or they say they aren't. They are supposed to be moving the MMO genre to a new stage, no more simple rehashing of the game that these people released 6 years ago.

Brad's explaination that was added to the FAQ about what they are aiming for is

The game is going to be challenging.

The game is going to focus on character advancement, item acquisition, and interdependence to build community and teamwork.

If I had to compare it to another game, take original EQ, Kunark, and Velious -- that sort of challenge.

One of our big goals is bring back the challenge we feel is being abandoned in MMOGs as of late, but without a lot of the tedium. We want travel to be fun, and there to not be a lot of teleporting around. We want exploration to be key and for you feel compelled and then rewarded for exploring and traveling.

We really don't want camping, where you sit in one spot waiting for a spawn. We have plans to have our encounter system strongly encouraging moving around, 'doing' a dungeon. We want to have cool vehicles, whether they be horses that you can equip and also use for storage that help you move across land; we want you to own ships and sail the oceans, but not empty oceans -- oceans filled with content as well -- sea monsters, pirates, and lots of little islands en route to your destination.

Additionally we will have areas that are more geared for one of the categories: casual, group, and raid. The casual areas require less of a contiguous time commitment and you don't need a full group. The grouping areas, well, require you to group. Think classic, old school grouping. Then the raid areas, well that's pretty obvious.

Both risk and reward will be present, however, so one shouldn't expect to see as much of a reward in a casual area vs a group area. It's something to do when you have less time, and it should be fun, but you're not going to get the fiery scimitar of ultimate doom in a casual region.

Also, our crafting system is there and arguably just as important as the adventuring side of things. So if your buddies aren't on one evening yet you still want to play, you could go and hone your crafting skills, and then return to adventuring the next evening when the guild logs on and off you go.

The interface and character class selection is also somewhat newbie oriented if you want it to be. We don't want to beat the noob over the head with all the depth and detail of the game right off the bat. It's intimidating. So if you choose the noob path to character creation, expected to be gently led into the UI, the gameplay, etc.

Basically, we want to remove as much tedium as possible, as well as barriers to entry. But, and this is key, we strongly feel this is NOT mutually exclusive with making a darn hard and challenging game. Battles will be tough. NPC AI will be smart. Lots of group tactics will be used, with even more collaboration then you've probably seen before, and an even more visceral feel.

Dungeon crawls will be back, and those who risk the depths of these nasty areas and return alive will most likely have some pretty awesome loot.

Death will have a sting, and it's mostly classic corpse retrieval with a few variations like we'll make it easier to find your corpse, yet you'll still have to fight to it. Also, corpses will never truly deteriorate as long as a certain amount of loot is on the corpse. And, the way the game is designed, you are expected and will need by a certain level to start putting together multiple sets of armor (gets into situational stuff that I can't talk a lot about now). In any case, the old 'gotta head back into the dungeon naked to my corpse' should pretty much go away, as you will have spare/alternate set(s) of equipment relatively nearby.

Anyway, tough, yes. Rewarding, yes. Challenging, yes. Tedious, hopefully no. Camping, minimized the best we can. Travel, fun and dangerous in and of itself. Needing to group and work with others to really advance optimally and get the phat lewtz, yes.

From that, I have to say I completly agree with their goal, its just will they be able to implement it.

Shining1
18-10-2005, 21:13:28
Incidentally, FoH haven't beaten Blackwing Lair, and weren't allowed to test it. (I'm on their PvE server, Alliance side.) The worst that's been said about them is that their rogues got an awful lot of Perdition's Blades awfully quickly. Alliance side, no-one is really concerned about an FoH matchup - just Torrid. It's Forgotten Aspects who scare the crap out of you, to the extent that they have apparently recruited our guild's best Druid (yep, a reroll, Horde side, with probably hundreds of hours regearing as well.)

God knows I don't owe Blizzard any special loyalty (the whole 'evil fanboy' bit which has been appropriate for years now). It sounds good. But again, this is an effervescent post by one random member of the hardcore everquest elite, and should be strongly coloured as such.

Furor is a gay twat

QFT =D

HelloKitty
18-10-2005, 22:12:59
Bah

Kitsuki
18-10-2005, 22:39:09
Personally, an evolving world is what would impress we with a new MMO, one that changes over time and in line with player actions.

I like WoW in that some of my friends who dont have much time can play it casually, and I'm pretty darn happy with that situation.

HelloKitty
18-10-2005, 22:49:53
The original WHO had planned what you are wishing for. If Mythic keeps some of their ideas for the new WHO it will be a step forward.

ATM the only game I know of that you cna change the world to a degree is EQ2 with the new expansion where the desert cities change in population and faction based on actions on each server.

JM^3
19-10-2005, 01:21:14
AO changed everyonce in a while...

but it was painful, ugly, and boring

JM

Kitsuki
19-10-2005, 01:28:00
It's quite a trick, but a dynamic game in the true sense of the word would trump the market.

Mightytree
19-10-2005, 01:38:57
As HK said, if the developers really do what they're saying they're doing with Vanguard, it'll be a really interesting game.

I just have the feeling that ultimately they won't stick to their "vision" and will try to cater to casual gamers as well. It'll be just the same as EQ2 - casual gamers will quit after a month out of frustration and for hardcore players it won't be hardcore enough. What we're hearing now about the game being that big, challenging and generally awesome is just hype and should be taken with a grain of salt.

HelloKitty
19-10-2005, 03:17:26
I have complete faith they will stick to their vision. These are the people "The Vision (tm)" came from (Greg played old EQ and is the only one who probably understands that reference). I just don't know if they can pull it off.

They will try, and they will stick to thier guns until the very end, they proved that witht he way they ran EQ while they were 989, then bought out by Verent, then until SOE took over and one by one they left, then for a while they fought to keep "The Vision (tm) in place, but SOE forced the changes against their plans.

The real problem is the project is so huge and no MMO dev teams have made 2 run away hits yet. The best attempt was SWG (Raph Koster from Legend MUD and then UO) and he stuck to his guns even in the face of Lucas Arts and SOE fucking with him. In the end SWG came out as an incomplete unrealized game. After Koster left his team the new LA/SOE people came in and made SWG into a great game that it is now, but it has very little in common with the original plans.

With Sigil, the people running it have no where higher to go. The CEO is also the head of development. The game will either crash and burn under its own weight, have everything they planned but have shitty implementation and integration, or be the best thing on the market.

I don't see the game becoming something else though.

Greg W
19-10-2005, 04:52:09
Ah, yes, The Vision (tm). Ah, god that makes me feel old. And I wasn't even an early entrant, took me about a year to get into it. :D

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gregpw/ding65.gif

Have you played or seen EQ1 recently HK? God it is dumbed down now. Almost to EQ2 level, and in some ways, moreso. Such a shame. There was something to be said for those first few times you played, when you had no idea what was going on.

HelloKitty
19-10-2005, 05:24:43
Haven't logged on to EQ1 since OOW came out (what? 18 months ago?). I know plenty of people who never stopped and even more who are done with WOW and EQ2 and waiting for vanguard who have gone back to EQ1 even if only casually. My old Time guild completely broke up last Nov and apparently about 70 of the members are playing again (I still have forum access for some reason).

Lots of people are raving about the latest expansion and how cool it is and it brings back a lot of innovation, but the post POP game really was enough for me. EQ1 sub numbers are steadily increasing again though so someone is playing and leaving the new gen of games.

I still contend that Eq1 is the best thing on the market for content, gameplay, and ideas, but it is not what it was pre-SOL. If they ever got around to redoing the graphics (which they have started and then dropped about 20 times in the last 2 years) the game would take off again.

But, unless my money, time, and overall life change, my raiding days are over, and that is what EQ1 was and is the best at, really well put together end and raid content.

Greg W
19-10-2005, 05:50:12
I finished up about 2 and a bit years ago, tho I did go back for a few weeks. Our guild was just starting to raid the elemental planes in PoP. They've since gone lock, stock and two smoking barrels to WoW.

I agree with you tho, pre SOL was great. After that it went kinda downhill tho. PoP was somewhat better, though IMHO it introduced too much dumbing down, such as the teleporters. And it's just gotten worse since.

EQ had great raid content initially. One of my few regrets is that I never got to go on a Naggy or Vox raid. Got to do the original Planes, they were awesome. Kunark was somewhat good, somewhat bad for raiding. Velious again had it's moments, especially ToV. I think that after they raised the level cap to 60 though that things went haywire. It screwed with the balance of the entire game, and they just added bigger and better loot, making the stuff that was hard of old just trivial. I was kinda sad the day that I went back and soloed Lord in LGuk (tho that was at 65 IIRC).

And that's not mentioning the schamozzle that was class balancing. God it sucked being a Paladin early on (my first class), In fact I created a Necro after a year or so cos playing a Paladin was shitting me. One of the reasons he's got so little time /played for an old schooler - most of my time went into the Necro.

But yeah, the time sink that is raiding isn't something that I particularly want to go back to. It was fun once, but it gets a bit repetitive after a while. And very time consuming.

HelloKitty
19-10-2005, 07:50:12
Well for fun EQ1 memories, here is Fansy the Famous Bard!

http://www.notacult.com/fansythefamous.htm

PoP had good and bad points. After the horrible VT key crap from SOL, PoP progression was great fun. If it weren't for the keying process they made SoL could have been great. the SSRA fights were amazing, the VT raids themselves were great, but that fucking key process DESTROYED SOL IN EVERy WAY> PoP had Challenging fights, a decent story line (well, until the very last thing), fun competition for key mobs (admit it, cockblocking was fun!) that keyed everyone and none of that VT shit unless you sucked and were avoiding killing the big stuff, and most of the raids were very well set up, even the BoT towers were not overly annoying after doing them 1000000000000 times while the guild scouted and decided on big targets for the night. Then they opened up the mid tiers to anyone of a certain level, and BoT became Loio part 2. Now apparently if you pay a good guild to take you to Time and let you hang out for a single kill, you get flagged for everything up to time!

Bah.

Things like the teleporters were a bad addition, although at the time I was laughing my ass off since I had enough plat I no longer used my wizard for taxi cash.

Even with SOL the world felt as huge as it was because of the 15 min wait for the spires. After PoP SSRA was 3 minutes for a bard from Qeynos. And the cities were race specific, you didn't see the wrong races in your town often, the game felt like a world.After PoP that fell apart thanks to PoK and PoT.

There was also a fear of death, something WoW has nothing of, and EQ2 has nerfed into a joke. I want a game that makes me afraid to die. the old EQ1 system really built the community AND helped immersion. You ever lose your corpe in Fear or Hate and have to call a better guild to break the zone for you? Towards the end of my play time I had learned to break fear solo (65 bard 200+ AA, etc) as long as the golems weren't up, just so I could meet suck guilds and see their piles of corpses (well that and some asshole Druid was trying to charge people for him to hydra break the zone for them).

The bazaar was good and bad, it destroyed the Gfay/Tunnel (depending on server) market where people actually interacted. But you could take a few 100k and make an scary uber twink in an hour at 5AM if you wanted, so everything was available.

There were all kinds of things in EQ that were frustrating at times but really built the communitty and put challenge and a sense of acomplishment into the game.

It was the worthless time sinks that started popping up with SOL that were the problem, now they apparently jumped the opposite way and took the WoW give everyone everything approach.

Thats why Vanguard is sucha great idea, but somthing that can go so horribly wrong. They want to bring back and add on to the things that made EQ the great game it was, but avoid the mistakes they made with the timesinks, and now avoid the mistakes the second Gen made with retard level game play.

Shining1
19-10-2005, 23:32:59
Does anyone have the math on how many quality 'hardcore' players actually exist?

I mean, can you take a project like this to completion, put it out there, and then have it supported well enough by its target market to keep it going?

Moreover, what's the definition of 'hardcore' here. A WoW Molten Core guild? A Ragnaros guild? What will your play hours need to be vs. level of skill if you want to complete all the content?

This thread delivers, but what it delivers so far is rather vague. Not even hype, really... just hope. =)

Greg W
20-10-2005, 00:06:20
Well, back in the old days of EQ, hardcore guilds were basically those that raided every night of the week. Possibly with weekends off. On top of that they had to be good at what they did, and have the numbers to do the top level stuff. Skill varies from player to player, but usually there's a good leader, and you have to be good enough to follow what he does to the letter.

Now, hardcore players otoh... Basically they'd be the ones that'd be on for probably a minimum of 4-6 hours per day, often more. They'd be good at their class, and know a lot about the other classes. They'd often have multiple characters at the "high" levels. Again, all this is based on EQ, with stuff like character restrictions that would obviously need to be varied.

Mightytree
20-10-2005, 01:10:29
Does anyone have the math on how many quality 'hardcore' players actually exist?

I mean, can you take a project like this to completion, put it out there, and then have it supported well enough by its target market to keep it going?

That's exactly the point. I certainly wouldn't mind if the developers stuck to their vision - I'm just not sure if their target audience is big enough to make that kind of vision financially viable. That's why I said it could very well be that they'll try to cater to casual players too and create a big mess which in the end nobody will be happy with.

HelloKitty
20-10-2005, 01:27:08
I think the problem is the word hardcore and how you are applying it.

They aren't catering to "hardcore" raiders. They are supposed to be catering to "core" MMO players. The ones who want thier games to be a challenge. The ones that want interdependence in a multiplayer game, the ones that want immersion and interesting content. Something that the second generation has not delivered.

If they were focusing on hardcore raiders, yeah, that would be stupid.

I can't find the quote but Brad's old defiition was something along the lines of "MMO players whose primary gaming interest is MMO gaming". i.e. people like me who have been ruined from wanting to play single player games from years of playing MMOs.

I get bored playing single player games. The second gen MMO games are unchallenging and superficial, other online games like FPSs are not my idea of a great community and good time. I will play them from time to time but the peopel vanguard is aiming at are the ones who want a persistant immersive world with challenging gameplay.

If vanguard is everything it says it will be will it have WoW like numbers? No, it will probably cap out under a million if that high. If vanguard is what they are saying the result for SOE will be a loss of buisness as people leave EQ a second time and eq2, and WoW will finish its decent into battlenet 2.0.

It probably won't even touch any asian markets other than taiwan since they have so many other options.

Mightytree
20-10-2005, 02:12:20
Although I enjoy playing WoW I'd say I'm pretty far away from being a casual player and actually fairly close to your definition of "core" MMO player. I haven't played any kind of single player game for years. I play often and I play long stretches of time.

So I read the official Vanguard FAQ today (which is excellent by the way - I've never read a FAQ with so much interesting stuff in it) and I have to say there were definitely quite a few things in their philosophy that I strongly disagree with. Mostly those were things that I feel don't really add much challenge or immersion to the game, but are only there to annoy the player in order to make the game appear more hardcore.

So I think either my definition of "core" MMO player is wrong and I truly am a wimp, or Vanguard's target audience isn't that big after all. Judging from the traffic their forums get and the kind of people it attracts, it's probably the first option. I could surely never compete with any of those hard dudes over there.

(Sorry, I just can't help it. Those forums really make me cringe ... ;) )

HelloKitty
20-10-2005, 03:03:08
All forums are pretty bad.

If you only had the WoW forums to go on would you expect to ever meet a nice adult who plays WoW? If only the SWG board would you ever expect to meet anyone in game who isn't on the verge of murdering a church full of people?

Greg W
20-10-2005, 11:03:40
Oh well, fwiw I registered on their forums. Let's see if I get a guernsey in the beta test at any stage. ;)

HelloKitty
02-12-2005, 06:14:57
Hopefully I will be seeing an NDA soon. I wanna play!

Resource Consumer
02-12-2005, 13:32:50
Where's Beta1 when you need him...........

Mightytree
02-12-2005, 15:39:06
edited ...

Lurker the Second
02-12-2005, 15:51:22
This game sounds interesting. When is the anticipated release date?

HelloKitty
02-12-2005, 16:22:33
Lurker: Release is not listed. They are doing a super slow beta so late 2006 at the earliest. MS is going to be the publisher and won't even start adverting it for another few weeks.

Lurker the Second
02-12-2005, 16:26:41
Late 2006? Holy shit, it will be a dinosaur on launch. Sounds like they are trying to have an involved crafting environment, though.

JM^3
02-12-2005, 16:28:29
is its graphics bad?

MMOs don't ahve the same sort of schedules as others..

JM

HelloKitty
02-12-2005, 16:35:15
Nope, the graphics are cutting edge. They are developing a whole new way of doing textures that you can read about on thier site.

And yeah, MMOs are on their own time table. Even the original EQ began development 4 years before it was released.

JM^3
02-12-2005, 16:45:16
yeah

EQ and ones of that generation are beginning to show their age (but many still play)

but FFXI and CoH, while a couple years old, are still nice... (when compared to the latest offerings, WoW and EQ2)

JM

HelloKitty
02-12-2005, 17:23:26
Well WoW uses 4-5 year old graphics with very little customization but a huge amount of a specific style. They are basicly using the luclin era EQ engine.

EQ2, while having the most insane graphics and enviornments, has suprisingly little customization for characters. Except for hair style and skin color there is very little that looks different between players. They do have the top graphics of any of the games though.

Vanguard's plan looks interesting but is really beyond my understanding of graphics programming. From what I hear it works though. Awesome looks with much much lower requirements.

SWG was the top for character customization. Nothing came close to it. It still beats the hell out of other games. Just the outfits didn't have a huge amount of variety.

COH for outfits is the clear winner. Yeah you are the same shape exactly as everyone else just a different height, but everyone looks completely different.

JM^3
02-12-2005, 17:47:18
CoH added more shape possibilities...

JM

Mightytree
03-12-2005, 02:00:12
edited ...

Asher
05-12-2005, 01:00:48
It looks like a crap game with snooty players.

Funko
05-12-2005, 09:36:58
So, one for you then?

HelloKitty
05-12-2005, 16:21:28
He prefers the easy games with l33t kids.

Lurker the Second
05-12-2005, 16:23:12
Kitty where is the beta sign up for that?

HelloKitty
05-12-2005, 16:31:17
If its not on the main site forums they have probably shut down applications. You can register on their forums and they will be adding forum members to fill up slots when they want to do large scale tests of parts of the world. Probably won't get in though since so many people have registered.

Lurker the Second
05-12-2005, 16:42:15
Already far too much effort involved. Oh well.

Mightytree
05-12-2005, 17:01:52
I prefer easy games with l33t kids too, but that won't prevent me from giving Vanguard a try when it comes out. :)

HelloKitty
05-12-2005, 22:58:54
Originally posted by Lurker the Second
Already far too much effort involved. Oh well.

Yeah, somehow I think you would ahve fallen out at the Fax us your DL or Brth cert and signed forms part. If not that the "you may have to answer the phone and talk to a dev" part would ahve killed you.

Lurker the Second
06-12-2005, 00:40:02
:lol: yep, roadblocks everywhere you turn.

HelloKitty
06-12-2005, 01:38:37
Worthless post.

Asher
06-12-2005, 03:38:55
The "savior of __________" is always shit -- FACT.

HelloKitty
06-12-2005, 03:50:23
Originally posted by Asher
The "savior of __________" is always shit -- FACT.

I am going to paraphrase that for my new sig.

Shining1
07-12-2005, 15:00:10
:lol:

Asher
07-05-2006, 07:06:59
This game is going to be DOA: SOE is the new publisher.

HelloKitty
07-05-2006, 07:47:53
Yeah that scared me, but reading the facts of the situation, there isn't much to worry about, situation for development actually looks much better. There is a huge thread on the VG boards with answers from the devs, and a faq.

From what I can see and read on the MMO boards,

This is Sigil taking advantage of SOE's collosal fuck ups with SWG, MXO, loss of Koster, and the continuing EQ2 problem where they can't decide which way to go with gameplay. Like I have said before, they needed to focus on their core customers, not try to compete with Blizzard for MMO-lite players.

This also gets Sigil away from MS, who had final say in everything since they owned all the rights for the game.

Sigil bought all the rights from Microsoft. Now they own the whole project, rather than just being the developer.

They have just sold SOE the publishing rights, not the IP, license, etc. It won't be worked on by SOE employees, not part of SOE Customer support (thank god), etc, they are just running the servers, billing, and adverts. They also are excluded by contract from the station online program (again, thank god).

The contract also gives SOE no influence on content or gameplay. Something MS had apparently been exercising.

They also have no set release date now, they can develop as long as they want since they are funding themselves. MS had given them deadlines etc, SOE cannot.

What does SOE get out of it?

They get to add vanguard to their Access plan and regain a large base of customers that left EQ and the huge number who left SWG.

The access plan will be 25 a month for EQ, EQ2, SWG, MXO, Planetside, Vanguard, and thier 3 other games that are pretty damn old.

So, as long as everything posted is true, I don't have a problem with SOE running the servers.

JM^3
07-05-2006, 07:50:27
Still, it has been concerning.

There hasn't been a good new MMO for a long time..

JM
(if you don't count COV, EVE, and GW as standard MMOs)

HelloKitty
16-05-2006, 13:18:19
Well VG won best of show at E3.

What I think says a lot about the company is they have posted the reviews of the game on thier site, but not just the positive ones.

The CEO posted a list with links to all the reviews with headers indicating positive or negative reviews. The big complaint is the game looks similar to EQ2, its not cartoony enough.

Venom
16-05-2006, 13:36:08
If SOE is involved it'll all end horribly somehow.

King_Ghidra
16-05-2006, 14:39:47
Can't say this looks like my cup of tea. Raiding is the least appealing part of mmorpg's for me. Shit like dkps, five-hour raids that you can't leave because for five minutes because you fuck the whole thing up, and maniacs screaming down teamspeak and setting dumb rules are a major turn-off.

For me, small party adventuring, general levelling and pvp are more attractive gameplay elements.

Not to mention the graphical design and animation on this i find a bit crap. Like morrowind tbh, which has awesome scenery and crap looking people and animations. Pseudo realistic < cartoony as far as design is concerned.

Asher
16-05-2006, 17:53:10
Originally posted by HelloKitty
Well VG won best of show at E3.

What I think says a lot about the company is they have posted the reviews of the game on thier site, but not just the positive ones.

The CEO posted a list with links to all the reviews with headers indicating positive or negative reviews. The big complaint is the game looks similar to EQ2, its not cartoony enough.

Hmm. You must be thinking of some different awards than I am, the E3 awards don't even announce nominations til the 23rd: http://www.gamecriticsawards.com/

HelloKitty
16-05-2006, 22:51:18
Sorry, forgot to name stratics.

MMO awards, Wii will take all the awards for the whole E3.

HelloKitty
16-05-2006, 23:17:00
Originally posted by Venom
If SOE is involved it'll all end horribly somehow.

Well as long as they have no say in anythign to do with content, development or gameplay.

Honestly, what were the MMO alternatives?

Microsoft? They had the right to change/do whatever they wanted to the game, and force it out early, and we all know how good MS is about handling games. How much promotion had you seen for VG so far? MS should have been doing that a year ago and has done nothing.

Vivendi? No sane developer would work with them after all the ways they have fucked people in the past. Blizzard is still trying to recover the loss of talent from release. Plus from what I hear they are still having server stability problems 2 years into WoW.

EA? (I don't think an explaination is needed)

NCSoft? This would have been awesome.

SOE? Evil? Stupid ideas? Yes, but stable servers, billing system, and know how to promote. As long as they have no say in anythign about the game itself, they would be the second best choice.

Mythic? Who the hell runs mythics servers?

Funcom? Until WoW came out funcom had the record for botched releases, they made SWG look smooth.

CCP? Now we are just being silly.

HelloKitty
17-05-2006, 00:11:05
Thought I had posted this a few weeks ago.

Computer gaming Magazine has a beta offer in june's issue.Basicly buyt eh mag and you get a beta slot.

Doesn't say WHEN you get to play, just that you will get to play, so it could be 3 days before release, or next week.

http://www.zinio.com/offer?issn=1546-5101&rf=zgaming&ns=zno

You can buy the issue online at that link, or do what tons of kids apparently are doing and go to your local store, rip open the magazine plastic cover and copy down the code.

HelloKitty
17-05-2006, 12:45:18
Well it looks like the truth is out there.

http://www.joystiq.com/2006/05/16/was-microsofts-vision-for-vanguard-vista-exclusive/

I would say this is plausable, but since Brad is posting jokes and "laughing at myself" in thread with a comic about this instead of closing/consolidating it with all the other SOE threads into one big thread, (thereby putting it into the dev tracker for all posters to see), we have our answer!

WTF?

Oh this is the comic he liked

http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/comics/20060517.jpg

Shining1
22-05-2006, 13:47:43
Certainly SoE needs somekind of speedbump for the unstoppable global phenomenon that is Warcraft.

Like CAD comics, except when he uses his own characters. Which is most of the time... =/

HelloKitty
29-05-2006, 20:12:41
Actually Vanguard probably won't effect the WoW playerbase by very much. They are aiming at 300-500k subs not millions.

They are going the local burger joint vs McDonalds approach.

Few bits of news.

Next stage of Beta and new access is delayed while they change the beta servers all over to SOE and determine hosting etc.

Some neat info on the size of the world and how they handle twinking and mudflation.

There are 3 continents to start. One High fantasy, one Asian, and one middle eastern.

Each continent is continuous with no zones at all. No instancing, etc. They are described as being truly open like Oblivion, and not like previous games where you were foced into narrow paths by impassable mountains making a defined zone (like WoW's outdoors).

Based on player runs and the CEO's info, the right hand island in WoW (where the good guys start, forgot the name, not the Elves who are on the horde island) is about 2/5 of the size of each of the 3 islands.

This could be good or bad, depending on how they implement things. SWG had HUGE expanses (each planet being larger than EQ's first 3 continents) but had very little to do.

The world will also be seamless over the seas with small islands, player owned ships, etc. So you can boat across the oceans, hire a player to take you, or hire an NPC.

The world is truly 3D, like COH. Each of thier mini"zones" within the world is about 2km by 2km, with 2 km above the land accessable, and 2 below. The plan is to have huge underdark style dungeons, although nothing that large would be in game at release.

The flying mounts are flyers like in COH, you control them, you can go anywhere with them.

If something in the game looks like it can be mounted, it can be. One of the demos has a Dev riding a giant tabby cat.

More info on the caravan system is out, but not much. Since there isn't insta travel in VG to allow friends and guilds to stay together, when you log off you can join a "caravan". The leader of the caravan can move and bind it at any outpost and when members log on they can choose to load where they were, or where the caravan is currently.

Items will have soft level caps, so using a sword designed for a lvl 50 if you are level 1 will have decreased stats but increase as you level. However, whats new is with the veteran system if you pass a high item to an alt, you get a bonus to perceived level for the item, so it encourages passing items on rather than selling and flooding the market.

There will be an alter/tribute system, that sounds like the one EQ added about the time I stopped playing. You can sacrifice items for long term buff/bonuses/etc. Another way to get rid of old items. Worked pretty well in EQ since the buffs were really nice and with the right sacrifices could last weeks.

You can loan gear to players, even noobies who just want to see your stuff without fear. There will be a system where you can trade or loan items. If you loan it you can take it back at any time. So if you have a spare sword of uberness, feel free to loan it to the bard you don't know in your pick up group.

HelloKitty
29-05-2006, 20:19:45
Oh and apparently their graphics lead is anally fucking Tim Sweeny ("Very very close friends"), so parts of Unreal 3.0 are already in VG and VG will upgrade officially to 3.0 when 3.0 is released.

Asher
29-05-2006, 20:50:49
Originally posted by HelloKitty
Each continent is continuous with no zones at all. No instancing, etc. They are described as being truly open like Oblivion, and not like previous games where you were foced into narrow paths by impassable mountains making a defined zone (like WoW's outdoors).
Wow, dude. That's so innovative, just like it was in 1998(?) when Asheron's Call (1) did it.

Asher
29-05-2006, 20:51:41
Originally posted by HelloKitty
Oh and apparently their graphics lead is anally fucking Tim Sweeny ("Very very close friends"), so parts of Unreal 3.0 are already in VG and VG will upgrade officially to 3.0 when 3.0 is released.

That would suck, UE3.0 doesn't support anti-aliasing because Sweeney is a fucking moron with how he implemented the shadowing system. :gasmaske:

HelloKitty
29-05-2006, 22:30:40
Originally posted by Asher
Wow, dude. That's so innovative, just like it was in 1998(?) when Asheron's Call (1) did it.

Yeah, I was saying how innovative it is, especially since I mentioned SWG which had the same thing but poorly implemented.

and Q4 of 99.

HelloKitty
29-05-2006, 22:34:09
Originally posted by Asher
That would suck, UE3.0 doesn't support anti-aliasing because Sweeney is a fucking moron with how he implemented the shadowing system. :gasmaske:

Doesn't, or won't?

Or doesn't and has something better that isn't poorly designed and a huge resource hog?

Seriously, I don't know anything except AA is practicaly worthless.

HelloKitty
29-05-2006, 22:37:40
nm found it myself. UE3 is apparently making AA for lighting and shadows redundant.

These techniques are costly, often cause visual anomalies when enabled on an application without its knowledge. And in next-generation games, it's not clear that it is worthwhile to focus so much hardware on solving the edge-aliasing problem when the interior-aliasing problem is at least as significant. Once you move to next-generation per-pixel lighting models, the lighting equations (such as exponential specular lighting) are nonlinear, such that texture mipmap filtering doesn't avoid aliasing as is the case with linear diffuse lighting.

Asher
30-05-2006, 01:28:53
So they say, the demos they've shown still have jaggies.

MS was up in arms with them because AA is a "requirement" for Xbox 360, but gave UE3.0 a pass due to technical problems.

Asher
30-05-2006, 01:30:27
You really think AA is worthless? :gasmaske:

I can't stand jaggies in my games anymore...it's way better without them. Smooth lines, why the hate?

I play most my games in 4x FSAA w/ 16x anisotropic because I'm anal like that.

HelloKitty
30-05-2006, 02:02:28
I just don't see a substantial difference for the cost. I am on a 6800 256 so I can run it, but never see the point and turn it off before playing long.

Asher
30-05-2006, 02:31:40
I've got a 7800 256 and the cost is like 10-20% of the FPS, well worth it.

HelloKitty
30-05-2006, 03:01:31
Depends on the game.

Since we are talking MMOs here,

WoW and EQ1 definitly worth it. The games are so light on graphics requirements that you should be getting 40+ FPS anyway at max settings.

EQ2, SWG, etc imo not a chance. That 10-20% drain takes away so many other choices of cool things that make a huge difference in view and can mean the difference between super smooth running, and annoying occassional drops to the teens or below for FPS.

With vanguard, who can say? A lot of the art isn't implemented yet and they ahven't optimized the engine yet.

The idea they had to make all similar items count as one item for rendering is great. SO if you have 50 people running around in chainmail, every chainmail item is considered one for the rendering.

Will it work? Well, thats the big question with everything in VG.


Oh and the CEO announced that the next 2 beta phases people can get "buddy" invites, and can apply for "guild" invites to get a whole guild in to playtest.

I think the members of Counterglow Kancho Unlimited are applying for that.