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View Full Version : WoW spyware confirmed by Blizzard.


HelloKitty
18-10-2005, 02:48:16
Ewwww. I didn't think they had actually admitted it (after denying it several times). But they did. Came accross this while reading all the entertaining Jack Thompson crap going on.

Statement by Caydiem

There’s some misinformation that’s going around in regard to the hack-scanning process (not a separate program) that we run within the World of Warcraft executable, so we’d like to take this opportunity to help clarify things for our players. First off, please note that our reluctance to discuss this issue is because in order to stay one step ahead of hackers, we have to be extremely careful in regard to what information we reveal about our security measures. Otherwise, we run the risk of revealing too much information and the hackers then being able to circumvent these security measures. This would of course defeat the purpose and leave World of Warcraft exposed to those relatively few unscrupulous players who want to cheat and ruin the experience for the millions of legitimate players.

Legally speaking, the scans are not a violation of rights. Understandably, that’s beside the point for the people who are concerned about our security measures. What those players seem to be concerned about is whether the hack scans are ethically appropriate. To address those concerns, we’d like to make it clear that the scan does not review or retrieve anything that’s personally identifiable. For example, the data that the scans read is not data that says, “This is John Doe’s computer. John lives at 123 ABC Drive, his phone number is ABC, his personal interests are XYZ, he has ABC friends, and he sent XYZ emails yesterday.” Again, we can’t get into what specifically it does look at, but we can say that all it tells us is whether a computer is hacking World of Warcraft. If the scan alerts us that hacking is taking place, we take action against the account, basically cutting off the access of that account to the game. Note that we have absolutely no need for any personal information from the player’s machine to take that action. That is, we can completely do our job and shut down a cheater’s account without gathering any personal data from his or her computer. Again, we have no use or desire for any personally identifying information that a player may have on his or her computer, and this particular security measure we have in place for World of Warcraft does not look at any such information on a player’s computer.

Some players have also raised the concern that this security measure slows down their computers. The process that World of Warcraft runs to protect itself has less of an impact on a computer’s performance than opening an all-text Web page or a single email.

As many players have noted, this security measure—designed wholly to protect the game itself and legitimate players from the actions of cheaters—is very similar to the security measures used by other online games for the same purpose. Punkbuster is one such example that players have pointed out. Our intent is not to deceive anyone—even those few players set on cheating in World of Warcraft. This is why we present the Terms of Use every time the game is updated and give players the choice of whether they want to play by the rules that we’ve established to keep the game fair for everyone. We would not want to lose any players over this concern, but ultimately, we feel we would run a greater risk of losing even more players if we did not provide for the game’s security. We hope that after carefully reading each updated version of the Terms of Use, players decide they want to agree to those terms and continue playing World of Warcraft. Hopefully this further addresses the concerns of those who have them, and we appreciate the support of the many players who helped to independently shed light on things for their fellow players.


Nice way to check for hacks and toss a quick file to marketing at the same time so they can see what other games and programs are loaded on the computer. All without getting any "personal" information, which they already have tied to the account.

And on a side note, does this sound like it was written by the Bush Admin?

EDIT

From the guy who hacked it out and tested it, apparently the program checks your computer and sends data every 15 seconds. It dumps info about all your DLL's active (Computer people explain please, all I know is it can let them look at changes made while the game is open?)

Then it sends information about all running processes and windows on your computer.

He claims he tracked it as sniffing his MSN contact e-mails which he had open at the time, all his open URLs, and all of his running programs.

The third thing it does is then "warden then calls ReadProcessMemory and reads a series of addresses - usually in the 0x0040xxxx or 0x0041xxxx range" (someone explain please) but apparently at this step it opened his e-mail program and PGP Key manager.

Mightytree
18-10-2005, 04:37:06
People should the ToS more throroughly. That's been in there since day one. :clueless:

HelloKitty
18-10-2005, 16:21:20
So you knew this was in there from the day they added the clause to the EULA and have no problem with them mining your computer for data?

fp
18-10-2005, 17:47:46
:lol:

Shining1
18-10-2005, 20:56:30
Old news, certainly.

Mightytree
19-10-2005, 01:18:30
Originally posted by HelloKitty
So you knew this was in there from the day they added the clause to the EULA and have no problem with them mining your computer for data?

Nope, no problem. If Blizzard didn't do all this and WoW was overrun by bots and cheaters, surely people would whine even more.

HelloKitty
19-10-2005, 03:52:53
WoW is overrun with bots. Ever been to mauradon, uldaman, or ashzara?

This program has done a great job catching the people who know nothing about botting and just download random programs from the web (i.e. WoWsharp) but programs like ISXWoW/innerspace which are the better ones already disable the client.

The bot farmers are not using the weak programs, and the professionals are using personal made programs. Unless TONS of people are using the exact same program (WoWSharp) the Warden client can do nothing but give Blizzard marketting info.

Even WOWSharp is safe to use if you are not a nimrod and follow detailed instructions available on the web, they made it open source since with standard versions they couldn't compete with the Warden. Change a few things and give it unique names and blizzard is only getting all your computer info and not the fact you are botting.

All this has really done is ban some of the 13 year olds who were using hacks for PVP and cause at least one lawsuit (disabled kid using macros in voice rec software and a programamble pad who was banned, the thread was on the WoW forums but vanished after a "We are looking into it" post from a Dev). You can test the accuracy of the program tonight. Load up WoW and open another window and name it "WoWSharp". See if you can play in the morning.

So, what is this program actually for?

Well you could say that
1- It is to discourage macroing among the general population. Thats possibly valid except they kept it a secret and lied about it (Even though the EULA gave them the right to add it") so that is unlikely but possible now that they admit to the spyware.

2- A chance to catch the big botters/macroers. Well, this program doesn't do that at all. If they wanted to do that they would use AO's hunter/killer system for finding bots.

3- Mining marketting data. Well we know it gives this sort of info.


So the program looks to be made for 1 and 3.

The WoW sales and farming market hasn't changed at all.

Mightytree
19-10-2005, 09:24:52
Security in online games will always be an uphill battle for the developers against the bot community, you know that as well as I do. There'll always be working bots/cheats around - after all MMO developers need time to react and to find countermeasures. I don't really care if there are "professionals" that are using uber-bots to farm places. It doesn't interfere with me playing the game and having fun, so why should I? As long as cheating and botting doesn't become mainstream, like it did in Diablo 2, it doesn't matter to me if a couple of people don't get caught. From looking at the wowsharp.net site, Blizzard's Warden seems to be quite successful at preventing that. As you said, Warden has done a great job catching the people who know nothing about botting and just download random programs from the web. That's exactly what it's supposed to do. You vastly overestimate the intelligence and capability of the average WoW player to run more sophisticated bots.

What exactly would your solution to detecting bots be anyway? Don't run Warden and let botters run wild, so you can feel good about your data? From all I can see you're just taking another opportunity to take a dump on WoW, without really having any clue about what Blizzard's Warden actually does. Besides, for someone that dislikes WoW as you do, you seem awfully well informed about it. Do I know what's going in Azshara, Uldaman or Maraudon at the moment? No. Do you?

HelloKitty
19-10-2005, 16:38:40
The solution would be to use the UO hunter/killer system with GM teams. They are the only company with a decent system proven to work. EQ tried the spybot thing years ago but backed down after people found it in beta code and realized that the program wouldn't hurt the people really messing up the game.

If you realize it or not the botters are drastically changing the game for you. As you move up you will run into more personal face to face conflicts with them as you need to do the same things they are occupying, but even now your server's economy is very much affected by the "proffesionals" so the prices you pay, the money you earn, is very much part of your gameplay.

The professional botters, farmers, account sellers, etc are making a fortune off of WoW, and Blzzard is doing little to stop it. The fact that counterglow, as obscure as it is, has been visited by plat farming companies to advertize is a huge clue into how big this "industry" is.

Why am I well informed? I read MMO boards, watch new game development, and have played most of them. I still have friends in the big raid guilds. WoW is the largest American made MMO by far. What WoW does will impact the rest of the market with companies trying to knock off WoW/Eq1 clones, or going after niche markets.

A company putting spyware on your computer that can access information from passwords to bank account numbers to e-mail lists from any open program is a very bad precedent. No matter how much you "trust" a company they have no reason or need to get that information other than for marketting research. This is clearly spyware, it does not "Scan your harddrive for hacks" which the EULA has you agree to, it farms information about your system, programs, etc to Blizzard and if any of those programs happen to have the same name of a known hack, you get an auto ban. None of which is effective or needed for the supposed purpose of the program.

But if I don't know what Blizzard's warden system does, please explain where anything I have said is wrong.

I know it hurts some people to have to think bad of Blizzard, in spite of thier and vivendi's track record, but if you look at my other threads I am critical of pretty much all the games out there from EQ all the way to WoW. I do find the "Blizzard can do no wrong" mentality very interesting though. It is very similar to the Sims2 BBS's response when someone posts something negative about the game. If you want I can dig up some old links on other sites where I complained about SOE's new track and ban system that also catches good numbers of completely innocent people who lose thier account for up to several weeks while they are investigated. Or SWG's response last year to duping which destroyed the fortunes of many players who had done nothing wrong, followed by the next round froma new dupe wheere the dupers knew they would be caught and specifically did things to make it look like hundreds of random players were involved. You can read in the vanguard threads my comments about my hopes and reservations abotu vanguard and Greg and I talking about what was good and what was very fucked up in eq1.

Anyway, the point is, this is not just an antihack utility, this is spyware. They are using hacking as an excuse to get info about you for marketting research. Even if you trust Blizzard with this data, do you trust Vivendi for a second not to use any data found?

HelloKitty
19-10-2005, 16:44:18
Oh and whats going on in those zones? Lets use Azshara as an example.

Froma week after WoW released the zone started filling up with botters. That is one of the prime zones for farming gold. You can apparently still go there and watch the bots and the one man marco chinese gold farmers there that are online 24/7. Has warden cleaned out this area? Not at all. Would having a single GM show up, watch for 15 minutes and then ban the bots work? Yes. But then they lose customers and income both from the botting companies and the player who will quit if they have to play the game rather than buy it. Plus they don't get the extra info about the players.

The actual response to the farming? From what I have heard they nerfed how close some of the mobs were together to make AE less efficient, and gave them a little more health to make killing htem slower. That showed them!

I am suprised you have no idea about this place. IIRC it is a high 30s low 40s zone, 2 weeks of casual play to be there. You must be taking the game amazingly slow not to know anything about it.

Mightytree
19-10-2005, 18:10:59
I know it hurts some people to have to think bad of Blizzard, in spite of thier and vivendi's track record, ...

:rolleyes:

HK, I'm as far from being a Blizzard fanboy as you are from voting Republican. I even recently went back to EQ2 for almost 2 months because I needed a break from WoW. I just sometimes feel obliged to counter your constant negativity towards WoW, that's all. It's ok not to be as enthusiastic about the game as some other people here, but try to be a bit more objective and say something good about it once in a while. A game with that many subscribers must have done *something* right.

About Azshara etc., of course I know it's one of the main places for farming gold, together with Maraudon. I regularly see lots of level 60 hunters hanging around in Shadowprey Village. I just thought it was weird that someone who probably hasn't played WoW in months knows exactly what's going on there, and is telling me how all the botters and professional gold farmers are supposedly negatively affecting the game for me. Because they're not. Seriously. I've been playing this game since almost the beginning and farmers/botters have never troubled me in the least. I'm having as much fun now as when WoW came out, and that's the only thing that counts - having fun. Let the farmers make their money - I don't care.

About Warden - here is the blog entry by the guy who hacked it:

4.5 million copies of EULA-compliant spyware
Oct 05 2005, 23:07 (UTC+0)

hoglund writes:

I recently performed a rather long reversing session on a piece of software written by Blizzard Entertainment, yes - the ones who made Warcraft, and World of Warcraft (which has 4.5 million+ players now, apparently). This software is known as the 'warden client' - its written like shellcode in that it's position independant. It is downloaded on the fly from Blizzard's servers, and it runs about every 15 seconds. It is one of the most interesting pieces of spyware to date, because it is designed only to verify compliance with a EULA/TOS. Here is what it does, about every 15 seconds, to about 4.5 million people (500,000 of which are logged on at any given time):

The warden dumps all the DLL's using a ToolHelp API call. It reads information from every DLL loaded in the 'world of warcraft' executable process space. No big deal.

The warden then uses the GetWindowTextA function to read the window text in the titlebar of every window. These are windows that are not in the WoW process, but any program running on your computer. Now a Big Deal.

I watched the warden sniff down the email addresses of people I was communicating with on MSN, the URL of several websites that I had open at the time, and the names of all my running programs, including those that were minimized or in the toolbar. These strings can easily contain social security numbers or credit card numbers, for example, if I have Microsoft Excel or Quickbooks open w/ my personal finances at the time.

Once these strings are obtained, they are passed through a hashing function and compared against a list of 'banning hashes' - if you match something in their list, I suspect you will get banned. For example, if you have a window titled 'WoW!Inmate' - regardless of what that window really does, it could result in a ban. If you can't believe it, make a dummy window that does nothing at all and name it this, then start WoW. It certainly will result in warden reporting you as a cheater. I really believe that reading these window titles violates privacy, considering window titles contain alot of personal data. But, we already know Blizzard Entertainment is fierce from a legal perspective. Look at what they have done to people who tried to make BNetD, freecraft, or third party WoW servers.

Next, warden opens every process running on your computer. When each program is opened, warden then calls ReadProcessMemory and reads a series of addresses - usually in the 0x0040xxxx or 0x0041xxxx range - this is the range that most executable programs on windows will place their code. Warden reads about 10-20 bytes for each test, and again hashes this and compares against a list of banning hashes. These tests are clearly designed to detect known 3rd party programs, such as wowglider and friends. Every process is read from in this way. I watched warden open my email program, and even my PGP key manager. Again, I feel this is a fairly severe violation of privacy, but what can you do? It would be very easy to devise a test where the warden clearly reads confidential or personal information without regard.

This behavior places the warden client squarely in the category of spyware. What is interesting about this is that it might be the first use of spyware to verify compliance with a EULA. I cannot imagine that such practices will be legal in the future, but right now in terms of law, this is the wild wild west. You can't blame Blizz for trying, as well as any other company, but this practice will have to stop if we have any hope of privacy. Agree w/ botting or game cheaters or not, this is a much larger issue called 'privacy' and Blizz has no right to be opening my excel or PGP programs, for whatever reason.

-Greg

This text makes it quite clear that Warden has zip to do with any marketing research. All it does is check which processes you have running at the moment you're running WoW - makes sense to me. I won't lose sleep over any of this. They can sniff all my title bars and processes for all I care.

One interesting thing I just read on my guild's forum:


Went digging deeper, and he originally posted this to a WoW hacker forum. His blog post doesn't detail his entire research. Namely, the point of this research was why were people still banned when they installed a "blocker" for Warden. The first conclusion was that there may be different versions of Warden at any time, and it can also be updated at any time, causing their blocker to fail. The second conclusion was that their future open source cheats will nearly prevent the Warden from detection since self-compiled versions will come out differently. That is, of course, if you know how to compile software yourself and don't share it with anyone else.

Amazing that the creator of a botting and radar hack is upset about WoW sniffing hacks, don't you think? ;)

Qaj the Fuzzy Love Worm
19-10-2005, 21:36:59
It certainly doesn't seem to mention transmitting any of the info back to Blizzard. From what is implied by the blog above, it would seem to do all its comparison and hash checking internally from a list not unlike the virus definition file you might download from McAfee or Norton.

I also disagree that there's a "Blizzard can do no wrong!" mentality here. Many's the time I've cursed them as boneheads for some stupid thing in WoW over the past 6 months. They still can't get their maintenance working right, or keep their servers reliable. They took forever to fix the looting bug on mineral nodes (if it IS fixed, I haven't seen it for a while, but I'm not really mining much copper any more - and that's without uninstalling all my UI mods like they recommended, which was bogus IMHO for all but a few cases) for example, and recently they screwed up the turn in of Arathi Basin honor marks for lvl30's. But just because some of us believe this specific "spyware issue" isn't a big deal doesn't make us the type who kiss Blizzard's ass and call it ice cream :)

HelloKitty
19-10-2005, 21:42:47
This text makes it quite clear that Warden has zip to do with any marketing research. All it does is check which processes you have running at the moment you're running WoW - makes sense to me. I won't lose sleep over any of this. They can sniff all my title bars and processes for all I care.

One interesting thing I just read on my guild's forum: So you didn't read the 4th or 6th paragraph of that blog post? Or any threads on follow ups from FOH, the ISXWoW sites, or the WoWsharp boards?

The "check" on all this data is done server side, not client side. There is a hot list downloaded that is an instant trigger like punkbuster has, but everythign the program sniffs is sent to Blizzard where you can hope they would only be using it for more in depth evaluation. So the program is sending all this information to Blizzard. Why would this be when a client side check would be faster and just as effective? They want the data for something.

The question is are they using it for marketting or not? The program is useless to stop the botters that really have an effect on the game economy. So, what is all this sent info being used for? Call me a cynic but do they have any reason not to use the data for marketting? In fact all they have said is they can't get personal identifying info from your computer (which is already linked to your account, so there is no need).


And I don't see the point of your last quote and statement. Who do you think would be the people who find things like this? The 12 year old kid whose Mommy pays for his WoW sub or someone who illegally breaks the program apart for a living?

HelloKitty
19-10-2005, 21:51:36
I also disagree that there's a "Blizzard can do no wrong!" mentality here

I wasn't just talking about here, it is fairly mild here, but look at the responses to this info on any of the fansites. Or any of the other things they have done wrong in a year. There is some weird rabid misplaced loyalty going on for some reason.

Shining1
19-10-2005, 23:11:49
One thing:

Having Gold Farmers in Azshara doesn't mean that WoW is hacked to shreds or anything. So far, it's been the case that:
* There is no duping in WoW.
* Speed/teleportation hacks have been banned very quickly.
* In some cases, automated movement has been detected and dealt with.

If the only botting in WoW concerns a priest auto-healing a Hunter in Azshara, then WoW is getting off very lightly indeed. A simple speed hack/teleport hack with an auto-face command and you'd never be able to beat a Rogue in combat again.

Mightytree
20-10-2005, 00:40:33
Originally posted by HelloKitty
Call me a cynic but do they have any reason not to use the data for marketting?

You mean the title bars and 10-20 bytes of code, which in 99.9% of the time doesn't contain anything useful anyway?

This has nothing to do with misplaced loyalty at all. I just fail to see where the outrage is supposed to be. You're making a mountain out of a molehill. :sleep:

King_Ghidra
20-10-2005, 08:21:59
Originally posted by HelloKitty
I am suprised you have no idea about this place. IIRC it is a high 30s low 40s zone, 2 weeks of casual play to be there. You must be taking the game amazingly slow not to know anything about it.

FYI, you do not recall correctly, azshara is high forties, low fifites

MDA
20-10-2005, 11:18:35
2 weeks of casual play?

Oh...you mean 2 weeks of game time, not powerlevelling.

Shining1
20-10-2005, 13:01:38
14 days /played at casual speed should get you to Azshara.

zmama
20-10-2005, 15:15:28
I still hang out there in my 60's
Easiest place to get bluedragonscales fer my leatherworking biz...and more cash per hour than hunting scarlets

Gary
20-10-2005, 16:31:38
Hmmm think I may give WOW a miss in that case ;)

HelloKitty
20-10-2005, 16:33:05
Originally posted by King_Ghidra
FYI, you do not recall correctly, azshara is high forties, low fifites

Not creature levels, levels of players. I asked a friend, you can see people as low as 36 mixing into the zone.

Shining1
21-10-2005, 04:16:03
The only problem with the spyware Gary is that it doesn't search your email and credit records for known gold selling sites. =p

King_Ghidra
21-10-2005, 08:03:32
Originally posted by HelloKitty
Not creature levels, levels of players. I asked a friend, you can see people as low as 36 mixing into the zone.

well if a level 36 player in a group can take down a level 48 creature then good luck to them, i don't see it being a very efficient way of farming

HelloKitty
21-10-2005, 08:09:46
Originally posted by King_Ghidra
well if a level 36 player in a group can take down a level 48 creature then good luck to them, i don't see it being a very efficient way of farming

Who said farmers were doing it at lvl 36? That would be pointless since you can PL to 60 in a couple days.

JM^3
21-10-2005, 08:14:49
this sucks

Jon Miller

Deacon
21-10-2005, 21:13:43
There's a potential problem with the window titles. Assuming that Vivendi aren't thieves, that doesn't mean that the data coming in can't be diverted by individual thieves.

That's not to say that it's happening. If I was a thief working at Vivendi, I wouldn't risk getting caught. If I was a thief on the outside, it would be alot of work. I'd have to hack the client, hack the network, or eavesdrop on their network.

I'd be easier to use existing spyware. I'd particularly want to use the stuff that clings to IE, since it comes with every copy of Windows sold since the late 90s. Less work to slime more users.

King_Ghidra
24-10-2005, 08:46:47
Originally posted by HelloKitty
Who said farmers were doing it at lvl 36? That would be pointless since you can PL to 60 in a couple days.

ok kitty you confused me, why the hell did you mention azshara again?

you were complaining about farmers, then you said it was an x level zone and i corrected you and then you said people were going there earlier than the mob levels and i'm not sure what you're arguing about at all :clueless:

Sir Penguin
24-10-2005, 15:31:16
Originally posted by HelloKitty
So you didn't read the 4th or 6th paragraph of that blog post? Or any threads on follow ups from FOH, the ISXWoW sites, or the WoWsharp boards?

The "check" on all this data is done server side, not client side.
The blog post says that they check against a hash, it doesn't say the raw data are sent to Blizzard. If the data were sent in raw format, there would be no reason for Blizzard to hash them, they would just compare the strings directly. Presumably, it's done server-side so that people can't hack their local binaries to disable the check, and so that when the list is updated, they only have to update a few servers instead of millions of computers. Without more information regarding what data are actually sent to Blizzard, there's really nothing to be outraged about.

SP

HelloKitty
24-10-2005, 15:39:42
Originally posted by King_Ghidra
ok kitty you confused me, why the hell did you mention azshara again?

you were complaining about farmers, then you said it was an x level zone and i corrected you and then you said people were going there earlier than the mob levels and i'm not sure what you're arguing about at all :clueless:

Really simple concept here.

Someone says they never see and have no interaction with farmers.

I reply with a list of zones that farmers own and a level range that person should have been to notice.

Someone says I am wrong about the levels for the zone and lists mob levels.

I point out that players can start there much earlier. Nothing to do with what level farmers start.

The point? If you are around 40 and not blind, you see the mass farming and the effects on the market.

HelloKitty
24-10-2005, 15:42:00
Originally posted by Sir Penguin
The blog post says that they check against a hash, it doesn't say the raw data are sent to Blizzard. If the data were sent in raw format, there would be no reason for Blizzard to hash them, they would just compare the strings directly. Presumably, it's done server-side so that people can't hack their local binaries to disable the check, and so that when the list is updated, they only have to update a few servers instead of millions of computers. Without more information regarding what data are actually sent to Blizzard, there's really nothing to be outraged about.

SP

Download the new program "The Guardian" that tracks what is being sent, like e-mail addresses if you have outlook open, AIM contacts, etc.

Make sure you know how to hide it, its on the insta-ban list. Guess you can't have a secure computer and play WoW.

Mightytree
24-10-2005, 15:59:11
Someone says they never see and have no interaction with farmers.

I never said that.

If you are around 40 and not blind, you see the mass farming and the effects on the market.

Consider me blind then. I see farming, but not mass-farming. I don't see any effects on the market that would reduce my enjoyment of the game. When was the last time you played WoW, HK? I think it's ridiculous that someone who hasn't played WoW for ages is telling *me* what's happening in-game. Laughable.

King_Ghidra
24-10-2005, 16:21:57
i'm with MT. Never seen anything of the like.

fp
24-10-2005, 17:09:51
I like how Kitty seems to give the opinions of people who complain about WoW more credence than the opinion of those who like it. No matter what forum you visit or what game is discussed the whiner/fanboi dynamic never changes in its essentials. :D

HelloKitty
24-10-2005, 17:21:02
The bliss in this thread is astounding!

So WoW is the one MMO that has not been hit by farmers? It is not the game that replaced Lineage as the most farmed game by chinese sweatshops after Lineage and L2 banned all chinese IPs?

Jonathan Yantis made millions off of EQ1 and now has not moved heavily into WoW and not bragged about making ten times what he used to make?

"HeRog" has never stated that the company he runs makes high 6 figures in USD monthly from WoW.

Anyone who thinks thier server is not affected by Bots is completely ignorant or living in a toon-town version of WoW and reality.

Most of the Chinese and Indonesian (which is the big up and comer for WoW farming) sweat shops run accounts 24 hours a day with 2 people switching every 12 hours. The quotas for every 24 hours apparently vary from 400-800 gold.

There are, just for WoW, complete guides of business plans for running these farming companies. There are also guides on how to embezzel gold from your "boss" if you work at one of these places.

Why gold and not items? Gold always sells, and sells well unless there is a duping exploit that gets out of hand (Halasan Wolves in EQ2 right after release).

Want to know how to exploit the market for your use? Here is a guide to gettign awesome items for very cheap and seeing how much your server is involved.

What Farmers Want and What Farmers Need

Though a farmer would like to get as much gold as possible for her items so she can increase her cache, she has to collect at least enough to satisfy her quota.

Catch the Blowout

You will see a pattern starting at around 5:30 AM and PM every day. Characters will start hawking items on the IF market channel at around 11:30. The prices will probably be competitive but not lowball.

It Doesn’t Hurt to Let the Farmer Know that You’re Interested in Her Item Early on

If a price isn’t stated in the spam, you can send a whisper and ask for it. As time passes and the bewitching hour nears, the prices of any unsold items will drop drastically. The fire sale has started and true bargains are to be had. Whisper enquiries to the same farmers you’ve queried 20 minutes before and you’ll find that they’re now asking a lot less. Make an even lower counter offer and don’t be surprised if it’s accepted.

If you make a lowball offer on one of these sell-off items at about 10 minutes before the hour and it’s rejected, don’t be surprised if at a minute or two before 6:00, the seller gets back to you and, to the best of their non-English-speaking ability, asks you if you’re still interested in their item. (That’s why it can be a good idea to send the farmer a message or two earlier in the session. You want your name to spring readily to mind when their desperation hits the critical mark.) They may still try to get a higher price out of you but if you stick to your guns for a minute or so of bargaining, you’ll probably get the item at the price you named.

Of course, farmers who stay on past the ends of their shifts, while their boss and/or partner breathe impatiently down there necks, are even more amenable to agreeing to ridiculously under-market offers; so keep looking for bargains after 6:00 as well.

A Single Example (Though I Could Provide Many)

I’m not saying that at sellout time, farmers will settle for pennies on the dollar (sorry, I mean copper on the gold), but they will sell an item at a price that will let you make a nifty profit from a quick resale. For example, I’ve purchased Krol Blades from farmers who were very well aware of their true market value for 600 gold and then resold them in the AH with my auction being bought out at 950 in less than 12 hours. I’d say that earning 350 gold overnight compares well with most of the techniques you’ll find in forums on gold farming.

(By the way, a humorous sidelight of my first such Krol transaction is that the Blade was the first item I ever listed in the AH at anywhere near the thousand-gold range. As soon as that item was in the AH, I started getting whispers from strangers—in Chinese! I know this seems to belie my earlier contention that not all commercial farming takes place in China, but I still stand by that assertion. Apparently though, Chinese farmers themselves are under this same misapprehension since they seem to take it for granted that anyone auctioning such a high ticket item had to be one of their own.)

Try it out if you can be on a US server at those times.

As to why and how I know whats going on? I see people I played EQ with for 5 almost every day, many of which now play and raid in WoW. I still frequent boards from my old guilds and keep in touch with people online I used to play with. I also know people who make money selling gold and items for money.

But back to the point,

The Warden does nothing to change any of this. It does not hit any of the big farmers and botters. All it does is ban little Jimmy L33t, which is a good thing, but has very little effect on the server or game.

As the top sub number english speaking MMO anything WoW does and gets away with sets a pecedent in the industry. Just like EQ1 before it. If Vivendi can get away with spyware that is almost completely useless except for gaining marketting info, how many companies won't add that on and spyware will become a regular part of MMO playing?

Even the tiny bit of info that is sent every 15 seconds adds up to a huge amount of information for Blizzard/Vivendi about what customers have on their computer. Thats great customer datamining without the fuss of asking the customer!

Like I said, if they wanted to do anything about botting, farming, and bot farming they would use a proven system.

HelloKitty
24-10-2005, 17:25:24
Originally posted by fp
I like how Kitty seems to give the opinions of people who complain about WoW more credence than the opinion of those who like it. No matter what forum you visit or what game is discussed the whiner/fanboi dynamic never changes in its essentials. :D

Sorry, when a company does somethng blatently wrong, you have to call it wrong.

Is my thread about the WoW expansion negative other than my opinion that raising the level cap already is a mistake?

Its interesting that because I am critical of some parts of the game people can toss everything I say as being delusional rantings of someone who wants to destroy WoW. If I really desired to and thought I had any chance of hurting blizzard and WoW, somehow I doubt I would be doing it ona forum with about 30 regular posters.

:rolleyes:

fp
24-10-2005, 17:40:02
No. Your entire basis for saying that WoW is dominated by farmers is from whining forum posts and the testimony of some of your online acquaintances.

I just thought it was amusing that you seem to give vastly more credence to the whiners amongst your online acquaintances, yet you dismiss the opinions of those who disagree with you as "delusional".

MT and K_G (and others) are saying that farming doesn't bother them and that it doesn't negatively affect their playing experience. I can't fathom how you can tell them they're wrong. What would you know about their playing experience?

HelloKitty
24-10-2005, 17:45:37
Well, when they say they see farming but not mass farming, which is clearly going on, you can say they are wrong.

When they say they can't see how changes in the market will effect their enjoyment of the game, you can assume either they are wrong, or like massive inflation.

Perhaps I am wrong though. Maybe they solo only in private instances and never buy anything at all.

Mightytree
24-10-2005, 17:57:34
:sleep: :sleep: :sleep:

HelloKitty
24-10-2005, 18:57:45
Originally posted by Mightytree
:sleep: :sleep: :sleep:

I think that well thought out response is point, game and match to me.

Seriously, there are a few possabilities.


1- Farming and botting is not a problem, just like some people believe. In which case my original point in this thread is right. Blizz/Viv are doing something borderline illegal and using a nonissue as an excuse.

2- Farming and botting is not an issue and blizzard is so out of ouch with reality they are trying to stop it anyway.

3- Farming and botting is a major problem and blizzard is doing something borderline illegal with its spyware and using it as an excuse, in spite of the fact that the spyware does nothing to prevent the actaul problem.

4- Farming and botting is a major problem and the program is aimed at stopping it, but they are completely incompetent at programming and completly targetted the wrong things.

Personally I can see 4 since many many MMO companies have royally screwed up at times, but number 3 is much much more likely.

Industry reports, magazines, bragging of the top companies, the extremes other companies have gone to in order to prevent botting and farming, tend to force the arguement to the third or fourth option. The fact my "whining" friends agree with all the reliable information is just silly.

Mightytree
24-10-2005, 19:16:23
You can interpret my response in any way you want, Kitty. I'm not sure who you were argueing against with your last couple of posts, but it sure as hell wasn't me. Besides, they are so filled with half-truths and strawmen, and for the most part were already countered by previous posts by various people - I just can't be arsed to respond. I'd rather do something more fun instead, like tearing my hair out or bathing in acid.

But if you really want a reply, take fp's last post. And if you really think you can judge better than me if I'm having fun or not then ... well, that's just stupid. So long.

HelloKitty
24-10-2005, 21:28:21
Who said you weren't having fun? I didn't anywhere. If you want to make a point, make sure you stick to the topic rather than try to distract and make up things in order to get out of it. But thanks for bringing the retardation level to 11.

If you want me to address fp's post again, sure. Since none of you have countered anything I said with more than "I have good time", which was never an arguement I made, I guess it would be better for you to avoid the issue and try to change the topic.

1- My assumptions are not made just from whiny forum posters and friends. Do an internet search and read any of the dozens of magazine and news articles. The fact that my whining friends, many of who are rabid blzzard fanboy's, happen to agree with everything I have read expalins why I can be pretty sure its accurate. Thats his first point and half his second one shown to be complete imagination.

2- You can discount one side of an arguement if there is clear proof that one side is right. WoW is a farmer's heaven. People are making hundreds of thousands of dollars every month. It screws the economy and affects everyone. Thats the rest of his second point down the drain. What is happening is 100% real, no argument that it isn't happening.

3- Perhaps ignorance of the issue has made your playing experiance great. I never questioned that. It does AFFECT you though. Like I said, if you ever buy or sell anything you are seeing an effect. Nothing to do with if you are having fun. But again, I could be wrong and you may like having to pay inflated prices. Doesn't mean you aren't having fun playing, but it sure affects you.


Happy?

Qaj the Fuzzy Love Worm
25-10-2005, 02:47:40
Originally posted by HelloKitty
2- You can discount one side of an arguement if there is clear proof that one side is right. WoW is a farmer's heaven. People are making hundreds of thousands of dollars every month. It screws the economy and affects everyone. Thats the rest of his second point down the drain. What is happening is 100% real, no argument that it isn't happening.

3- Perhaps ignorance of the issue has made your playing experiance great. I never questioned that. It does AFFECT you though. Like I said, if you ever buy or sell anything you are seeing an effect. Nothing to do with if you are having fun. But again, I could be wrong and you may like having to pay inflated prices. Doesn't mean you aren't having fun playing, but it sure affects you.


Happy?

These points are debateable. I've been playing since May, and in six months haven't see prices budge an inch on any item I've ever seen at the AH. In fact, if anything, some items have gotten a little cheaper (but, in my experience, these have been things like the Darkmoon Faire cards, which dropped from 100+ gold the first day to a figure more in the single and double digits).

There's no denying people are making money. Gold sellers certainly are, and if there's anything that annoyed me even a little bit, it's PvPers on the Alliance side who have unusually twinked out gear. But, since they generally have the money for good equipment enough to blast past whatever their level is on their quest for the levelcap, it's fleeting. Most people don't buy gold, to the point where I've observed it's way less than 1%. Too much risk for little reward.

We do see farmers with Chinese names on Skywall, but most people just laugh at them then /ignore. I guess some clueless noobs feed their habit by buying their firesale items, but hey, that's prices going DOWN, not up. And even if prices DID go up, they'd go up across the board, meaning you'd tend to get MORE for anything YOU decide to sell. The economy may get inflated, but since 1) money is free (go kill or mine something) and 2) there's no time limit, I don't see it really mattering. This is not just a WoW problem, it's any MMO with an economy, so we can disregard this point when taking a WoW-specific case.

If the problem was as bad as you are stating, no-one would play, even if they were rabid fans. I'm not even close to that category. I own 2 Blizzard games, WoW and Diablo2. I'm not even remotely interested in Starcraft or the Warcraft series before WoW. I'll play what appeals to me as a gamer, and this appeals to me. If you want to incorrectly write me up as a Blizzard apologist, go ahead, but like your other points, you'll be wrong.


As a final point, DRM has never had any kind of impact against the hardcore crowd who wish to circumvent it. But if Warden wasn't there, or something like it (you mentioned the UO system, I don't know what's involved in that, but I bet, given time and resources, determined people will circumvent that too) then every damn 13 year old with a browser would be botting, then I'm sure the game really would be screwed. I'm willing to settle for a comfortable middle-ground, as would most of the people replying to your posts here. We've read the articles and the opinions, we've made up our own minds, we're having fun. Please stop trying to save us :)

Sir Penguin
25-10-2005, 04:26:43
Originally posted by HelloKitty
Download the new program "The Guardian" that tracks what is being sent, like e-mail addresses if you have outlook open, AIM contacts, etc.

Make sure you know how to hide it, its on the insta-ban list. Guess you can't have a secure computer and play WoW.
I don't play WoW. Does The Guardian track what is actually sent over the network, or does it just track what is collected? If I understand the blog entry that MT posted, then no raw data are sent. The only data that are sent are the hashes, which can't be used to reveal personal data.

SP

Mightytree
25-10-2005, 09:03:08
Look Kitty, here's the situation ...

a) You have second-hand information about WoW. The posters speaking against you in this thread all have first-hand experience. Your credibility when discussing in-game issues with us is zero.

b) Is WoW a farmer's heaven? Probably. Are people making lots of money farming in WoW? Possibly. Is there inflation? Depends on the server, but in general yes, there is. If the economy is inflated, is it because of the farmers? They definitely do have a part in it, but on the other hand inflation is part of any MMO economy as it grows older. As Qaj mentioned, money is free so people get richer and are willing to pay more. Is the economy screwed up? No, it isn't. First of all, inflation is far away from being as bad as you think it is or make it look like. Qaj already said that he hardly noticed the prices on his server rising and I believe him. And even if prices are high, it doesn't affect me negatively in any way. Buying and selling high in a more inflated economy against buying and selling low in a less inflated one - it's the same thing, only the numbers are different. It doesn't matter to me if I have to pay inflated prices somewhere, because everybody else has to too. It's a non-issue. I have one newer character on a server with relatively high prices and have zero problems equipping him.

c) All this talk about things *affecting* me is just splitting hairs. All things happening on my server affect me in some way or the other. Do I care if they don't have any negative influence on my playing experience though? Hell no.

d) Warden and mass-farming. Our definitions of mass-farming seem to differ substantially. For me mass-farming = farming by the masses / mainstream. Warden prevents that. Professional farmers will always be around - they don't bother me.

e) I'm not sure how stupid or naive you think I am, Kitty, but as for people's retardation levels - take a look around. How many people in this thread are on your side exactly? Saying I'm retarded because I don't share your point of view makes you look pretty dumb, considering that nobody else here shares it either.

HelloKitty
25-10-2005, 18:47:28
Your point of veiw isn't what is bringing the retardation level up, its your making points based on things never said to "prove" your point and avoiding the facts.

a- So all the people who play who speak to me, and all the people who play and write articles in magazines and on game sites are mistaken because a couple people here are oblivious? Good point. Need some article links so You can have first hand info?

b- Is the economy screwed up? I am sure it is well on the way. Plenty of people are already complaining and as more money pours in with few sinks it will be continue. As for having no problem paying inflated prices for thngs since everyone else has to pay them, thats just stupid. If your incoming funds were increasing to match the inflation that would be a good point, but a lvl 1 is not making more money as inflation moves forward.

c- Fair enough, you don't mind inflation and poor economies.

d- Warden doesn' prevent mass farming from your defintion. It prevents a few people who have no idea what they are doing from macro farming.

HelloKitty
25-10-2005, 18:55:45
Originally posted by Qaj the Fuzzy Love Worm
These points are debateable. I've been playing since May, and in six months haven't see prices budge an inch on any item I've ever seen at the AH. In fact, if anything, some items have gotten a little cheaper (but, in my experience, these have been things like the Darkmoon Faire cards, which dropped from 100+ gold the first day to a figure more in the single and double digits).

There's no denying people are making money. Gold sellers certainly are, and if there's anything that annoyed me even a little bit, it's PvPers on the Alliance side who have unusually twinked out gear. But, since they generally have the money for good equipment enough to blast past whatever their level is on their quest for the levelcap, it's fleeting. Most people don't buy gold, to the point where I've observed it's way less than 1%. Too much risk for little reward.

We do see farmers with Chinese names on Skywall, but most people just laugh at them then /ignore. I guess some clueless noobs feed their habit by buying their firesale items, but hey, that's prices going DOWN, not up. And even if prices DID go up, they'd go up across the board, meaning you'd tend to get MORE for anything YOU decide to sell. The economy may get inflated, but since 1) money is free (go kill or mine something) and 2) there's no time limit, I don't see it really mattering. This is not just a WoW problem, it's any MMO with an economy, so we can disregard this point when taking a WoW-specific case.

The price of firesale items is not the problem, the movement of mass amounts of gold intot he economy is. Yes, an overfarmed item will go down in price. Will prices overall increase? Definitly. In most games this can be best seen in disposable or temp items like tradeskill components first.

If the problem was as bad as you are stating, no-one would play, even if they were rabid fans. I'm not even close to that category. I own 2 Blizzard games, WoW and Diablo2. I'm not even remotely interested in Starcraft or the Warcraft series before WoW. I'll play what appeals to me as a gamer, and this appeals to me. If you want to incorrectly write me up as a Blizzard apologist, go ahead, but like your other points, you'll be wrong.

I love how everyone takes the idea that I mean there are thousands of botters on every server and that no one can do anything. Also your idea that no one will play is silly, have you played other MMOs? Every single popular one has had the same problems, and every single one of them have had inflation, and every single one of them have people playing.


As a final point, DRM has never had any kind of impact against the hardcore crowd who wish to circumvent it. But if Warden wasn't there, or something like it (you mentioned the UO system, I don't know what's involved in that, but I bet, given time and resources, determined people will circumvent that too) then every damn 13 year old with a browser would be botting, then I'm sure the game really would be screwed. I'm willing to settle for a comfortable middle-ground, as would most of the people replying to your posts here. We've read the articles and the opinions, we've made up our own minds, we're having fun. Please stop trying to save us :)

"Saving" you wasn't my intention. I post info abotu MMOs. Its a game forum. Its just interesting that anytime the information casts any negative light on WoW the responses become very different. Even in a case like this where there is clear spyware being used.

Qaj the Fuzzy Love Worm
25-10-2005, 21:31:00
Originally posted by HelloKitty
The price of firesale items is not the problem, the movement of mass amounts of gold intot he economy is. Yes, an overfarmed item will go down in price. Will prices overall increase? Definitly. In most games this can be best seen in disposable or temp items like tradeskill components first.

But this is almost indistinguishable from the ususal "background" price increase that comes from an increase in population. In fact, of the two, I'd say normal population increases are responsible for far more economic disruption than professional farming any time.

Of course, I'm working with an 8 month window of observation here, but Wow has only been up for, what, a year? and 2/3rds of that total should have been enough time to see SOME economic effects, and I haven't seen anything. I even have a mod that tracks prices at the AH, and that doesn't show any disruption either. True, this leaves out /2 Trade Channel sales, but a quick 'anecdotal' scan of weekend Trade sales prices doesn't show anything out of the ordinary either.


Originally posted by HelloKitty
I love how everyone takes the idea that I mean there are thousands of botters on every server and that no one can do anything. Also your idea that no one will play is silly, have you played other MMOs? Every single popular one has had the same problems, and every single one of them have had inflation, and every single one of them have people playing.

I did not take you to mean that. In fact, my point is exactly your last sentence there, without the implication that "farmers make it so". They don't. Increase in populations do, and people playing the system against itself (daytraders, like me :D) do much more than a small number of professional farmers.

But your comment on "thousands of botters" - as I mentioned, without Warden or some other kind of policing, the bots would run rampant as any scipt kiddie could download one and try to make a fortune. While that might level the playing field, it would have much more serious consequences.

I'm pretty sure Blizzard has other methods by which they catch the major league botters. I'm also pretty sure that such methods would probably not work if they had to use them on EVERY players that logged into WoW. It's what I'd do, and they've been doing it much longer and have more experience at that kind of thing I'm sure, so it's no doubt occurred to at least one person there at some time.


Originally posted by HelloKitty
"Saving" you wasn't my intention. I post info abotu MMOs. Its a game forum. Its just interesting that anytime the information casts any negative light on WoW the responses become very different. Even in a case like this where there is clear spyware being used.

Posting info, then (mildly) flaming people who disagree is more than just providing info., it's pushing an opinion. Any time someone pushes an opinion, it's trying to convince someone and change their opinion. I don't need my opinion changed, I made it myself and I'm proud of it :D

And your definition of spyware is too general to care about. I don't care if Blizzard received hashes of window titles, and I'm not sure I buy into the "email harvesting" bit either, but since I only ever have OpenOffice, a browser, and maybe WMP open while I WoW, I don't much care. Maybe if they can 'de-hash' the info, but no-one's proven that yet, and again, I don't much care. It really isn't a big deal.

Finally, I disagree with your assertion that any negative WoW info is treated differently. I recall, not too long ago, about the lousy state of the servers. I still complain aobut login hassles and disconnects. And they seem to have huge problems updating the web site with pertinent downtime information, and Tuesday Overall Rank page updates. They're not perfect, not by any means. But so far the negatives are fairly minor. IMHO, of course :)

</DARKSTAR>

Qaj the Fuzzy Love Worm
25-10-2005, 21:47:52
Originally posted by HelloKitty
b- Is the economy screwed up? I am sure it is well on the way. Plenty of people are already complaining and as more money pours in with few sinks it will be continue. As for having no problem paying inflated prices for thngs since everyone else has to pay them, thats just stupid. If your incoming funds were increasing to match the inflation that would be a good point, but a lvl 1 is not making more money as inflation moves forward.

This is an interesting point. What does any WoW lvl 1 to, say, lvl 20, need to buy except vendor items, which have a fixed price? I haven't personally seen the need to outfit my lowbie chars with anything but vendor/quest reward items. At lvl20, they're usually powerful enough to go out and farm stuff fairly well (from ceratin areas anyhow).

Ultimately, all money comes from mobs and vendors. The only way to take money OUT of the economy at present is through vendors. Even with no farming, this would be the case. Farming isn't breaking the economy, it's exploting an already broken economy, with little impact.


Let me put forth an example, and I invite anyone to comment on it. Imagine server 001. It's got 10,000 players on it (not an unreasonable amount). 7k are Alliance, 3k are Horde. 1% of all players are major farmers (which is probably a hugely generous estimate). So, that's 70 Alliance, 30 Horde, 100 total. If the farmers grab 10x the loot a regular player does, that's still only like having an extra 900 players in the economy, not terribly debilitating.

50x the loot is 5000 players. This would have an effect, but I doubt we're seeing anything close to 50x efficiency. Plus you need buyers for all that crap (though vendors will do in a pinch). And with so many farmers farming so much crap, there would indeed appear to be tons of stuff to spend all that money on.


A final, final comment. In the real world, inflation is kept down by a growing economy. In a static world like WoW, that doesn't happen except for content enhancements, or artificially planning the economy. So eventually, it's going to happen anyway, unless someone can fix the underlying flawed model.

Mightytree
25-10-2005, 22:39:38
As for having no problem paying inflated prices for thngs since everyone else has to pay them, thats just stupid. If your incoming funds were increasing to match the inflation that would be a good point, but a lvl 1 is not making more money as inflation moves forward.

Oh jeez. And what happens if other people have to pay inflated prices too, like for instance *my* inflated prices I place on my goods I sell on the AH? That's right, I earn more money than I usually would if I was on a server with a less inflated economy. So my incoming funds do indeed match the inflation. That's the whole freaking point of that one sentence! And it's exactly the situation one of my newly created characters is in at the moment. Was that so hard to understand or did you just conveniently ignore it? It was all already in my post above, and Qaj mentioned it too in his.

And *you* are accusing *me* of avoiding your "facts"? You're a fucking hypocrite. As for the other things you said - I don't care. I think there's really nothing more I can say about this - if I did I would only repeat myself. I've described the situation as I perceive it daily on three different servers in-game. If you choose to believe other sources instead of the people in this thread, then this discussion is pointless and I have nothing more to add. We would only go in circles. Please refer to Qaj or anybody else who still has the patience to deal with you from now on for your daily dose of trolling. I'm all out.

Qaj the Fuzzy Love Worm
26-10-2005, 02:09:13
It's not so much patience, as nothing else to do at work :D

HelloKitty
26-10-2005, 20:03:25
Edit: I decided to remove this and let you happily live in bliss.

Gary
31-10-2005, 11:33:18
BBC finally got the story (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4385050.stm)

HelloKitty
31-10-2005, 16:32:23
:D

Right on top of current trends.

They need to hire a few people just to read webnews, blogs, and forums.

Kitsuki
31-10-2005, 16:43:39
At the end of the day - this wasn't a secret - its in the End User Agreement - don't like it, don't play it. I am simply happy that we don't have all of the cheating that existed in Diablo 2, and I trust Blizzard ( a highly reputable company ) and there appear to be very few ways for Blizzard to potentially misuse any information.

Shining1
01-11-2005, 03:53:56
Yeah, my opinion is very close to Kitsuki's here. Namely:

1) There isn't really anything I can do about it, save not play WoW.

2) It's hurting the dirty haxors a lot more than it's hurting me. Often my first query to these people crying about privacy is 'what else are you doing a program that analyses in-depth everything that Warden is doing.' Because the number one most interested people in that situation are the haxors themselves. I mean, if the Warden didn't search ALL of memory without exception, it would be trivial to get around it. So, given that I'm not dumb enough to store any information of value on my machine, Warden is actually making my life better (improved WoW) than worse.

3) Wow has an estimated 4 million subscribers. Say you are Paris Hilton, and you are playing on the same computer that you've stored all your current crappy sex videos on. That's still an awful lot of parsing to identify anything of specific interest, even if there was any real personally identifying data being sent, which apparently there isn't.

4) There is no noticable hyper-inflation on the server I play on. A Krol Blade still sells for about 700-800 gold. Perhaps now 800-900 over the course of the last 6 months. As compared to how money duping screwed SWG, there is nothing going on that suggests anything other than that we now have a majority of level 60 characters on our server. (There isn't even *that* much you can really do with purchased gold that screws the WoW economy. Once you have a Krol Blade, a ring or amulet, and the BoE parts of your set, there isn't much on the AH you can actually buy to get you ahead. So the main uses for purchased gold are gold sinks like respecing and epic mounts, neither of which causes inflation.)

Gary
04-11-2005, 11:22:03
http://www.theregister.com/2005/11/04/secfocus_wow_bot/

Want to cheat in your online game and not get caught? Just buy a Sony BMG copy protected CD.One set of ~!#**^ helping another defeat a third ?

MDA
04-11-2005, 11:55:32
...and there will be no lasting consequences for Sony :(

Gary
04-11-2005, 14:00:45
Maybe, maybe not. Depends on what you want. Looking at this CD review it seems to be gathering momentum. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-reviews/B00092ZM02/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/103-9465993-4670230?%5Fencoding=UTF8&s=music)

But that's, maybe, a music, rather than games, issue. Or maybe a technology issue ?

MDA
04-11-2005, 14:14:09
temporary hit to their bottom line, and they'll probably dump the software, that's fair in my mind

Better if it had never happened.

The big tobacco verdicts didn't do any lasting harm to the business, either.

HelloKitty
04-11-2005, 17:34:01
Originally posted by MDA
...and there will be no lasting consequences for Sony :(

Except security of thier music titles.

As far as I am concerned I trust Sony enough to put softwars like this on my computer in order to protect their product! So what if it opens up all kinds of potential abuse? Without it the music industry would fall apart.

Plus they warn you that the software is being put on so you know every single risk involved with it.

:rolleyes:

Shining1
07-11-2005, 00:35:25
:lol:

MDA
07-11-2005, 12:18:17
Someone got owned!

Gary
21-11-2005, 15:02:26
Update on the Sony thing. (http://www.theregister.com/2005/11/21/gaffer_tape_trips_up_sony_drm/)

In my day they used felt tipped pens. Now it's all Gaffer Tape.