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MattHiggs
12-10-2005, 13:00:10
I'm going to be getting a mortgage in the next year or two. After speaking to a mortgage advisor she recommended I get a credit card. Purchase one or two things a month and pay them back in full at the end of the month. This will get my credit rating up and thus we'll be able to borrow more.

The problem is, to be honest, I don't know much about credit cards or anything about the best deals.

Anyone got any information?

DaShi
12-10-2005, 13:02:07
Check your spam folder.

Tizzy
12-10-2005, 13:03:45
The best deals are basically the lowest interest rates.
Get one with 0% interest period if you can, and don't be taken in by the "moneyback" ones - they tend to be higher interest for a very small "return".

Kitsuki
12-10-2005, 13:10:06
If you set up a direct debit from your current account to pay of all of your credit card bills though the cashback one can be a good option - so long as you are someone who can control your spending.

MattHiggs
12-10-2005, 13:14:00
Yeah, I'm not stupid enough to buy loads of stuff on credit because of the minimum payment at the end of the month is low.

Greg W
12-10-2005, 13:21:26
Well, if you're going to be paying it off at the end of each month, just make sure that you get one with a 30 day (or more) interest free period. Any other benefits I imagine would be locally based, so I can't help a lot there.

Other than that, all you really have to worry about is what is accepted where. I use mastercard, and I don't think I have ever had a problem using it anywhere, from the US to Europe, China, Japan, Fiji... Visa would be very similar. Anything else is less widely accepted AFAIK (such as American Express and similar).

Rodgers
12-10-2005, 13:24:44
Originally posted by Kitsuki
If you set up a direct debit from your current account to pay of all of your credit card bills though the cashback one can be a good option - so long as you are someone who can control your spending.


This is what I do. I use Alliance & Leicester VISA and American Express "Blue" credit cards. I buy absolutely everything with the credit cards (hardly ever Switch or cash) and then write a single cheque to each at the end of the month.

Although the cashback returns is not exactly huge (maybe 0.5% or 1%) if you are putting all your spending through the card this can end up at about £100 a year (well, for me it is anyway!).

Considering I pay dont ever have to pay interest charges on my spending thats better than nothing!

Gary
12-10-2005, 15:06:38
If you are paying it back in full each month, then who cares about the interest rates ?

Avoid those with an annual fee. Try to check if they apply whacking great penalties if you happen to miss a payment, or are late.

MattHiggs
12-10-2005, 15:25:04
I've applied for two:

Capital One Platinum
Egg Card

Hopefully I should get a significant boost to my credit rating over the next 2 years.

It'll be pretty bad at the moment as I'm always late on Vodafone payments (usually a week or two every month)

Qaj the Fuzzy Love Worm
12-10-2005, 15:41:34
Do what Rodgers says: put all your normal spending on them, and write a fat cheque to them at the end of the month. It really does do wonders for your credit rating - it's what I did a few years back, and I had no credit rating (and LoC had bad credit). Took us about 2 years to qualify for a mortgage.

Nav
12-10-2005, 16:17:01
I've got a credit card with my bank. I pay it off at the end of every month by direct debit. I never have to worry or think about it. (what if you forget to write that big fat cheque or it gets lost in the post, is a day late etc.. you end up paying).

Lurker the Second
12-10-2005, 16:37:01
Be sure you're not late with those payments, though, or having the credit cards will end up hurting your credit rather than helping it.

JM^3
12-10-2005, 16:56:10
I am thinking of getting another one

this would put it up to 4 for me (as well as one that is store only (and I have only used once))

Jon Miller

JM^3
12-10-2005, 16:57:13
I have a capital one one as well...

it hasn't had the increase in credit line that my other cards have had

JM

Japher
12-10-2005, 18:20:01
I have a Macy's and 2 Chase cards... think of getting a 4th as well

One of my Chase's has an $80/year fee, but it also has my highest credit limit

Revolving debt is the fastest way to build credit. If you are going to pay it off every month get a American Express or Discover as they give you cash back.

MattHiggs
12-10-2005, 18:36:52
Don't a lot of places charge extra of AmEx?

JM^3
12-10-2005, 18:37:29
a lot of places don't take AmEx or Discover

JM

Japher
12-10-2005, 18:55:44
Well it ain't like your using it a whole lot.

Beta1
12-10-2005, 19:04:33
Originally posted by MattHiggs

It'll be pretty bad at the moment as I'm always late on Vodafone payments (usually a week or two every month)

you need to sort that out. late payments can end up on your credit rating - I had a problem with that. Good news is they don't keep it on the record forever so sort yourself a direct debit and you will be fine.

Oh and avoind barclaycard like the plague.

The Norks
12-10-2005, 19:30:21
you don't need a high credit rating to get a higher mortgage, its entirely wage based, so she's talking bollocks. You can have defaults and all sorts, the only thing they care about is bankruptcy, because essentially its a secured debt so its low risk for them. If you want to borrow above the traditional multiples, you can go to RBS or Abbey who like young couples and will look at what you can afford, or HSBC do 100% mortgages for graduates.

MattHiggs
12-10-2005, 19:34:28
Are you sure about that. She said it is based on two main criteria. Incoming wage and credit rating.

The Norks
12-10-2005, 19:38:43
I know my credit rating was less than healthy and I got a perfectly good mortgage. Unless you have a bankruptcy or possibly a CCJ they're dishing it out like sweets. Credit rating building is something of a myth anyway. As long as you have some line of credit and its been paid on time or near enough for a year/6 months or so you're laughing. A house is its own security so they don't need to go to the length they do with unsecured loans.

Gary
12-10-2005, 19:58:06
If you have an abominable rating then you may need to shop around, but otherwise they're covered by your deposit, they're not going to throw away business.

When I was first interested in getting a mortgage I'd had a building society account for years, to get a good record. When I actually needed the mortgage the rules had changed. I got a mortgage with one I hadn't saved with for years, as they gave the best rate. It was no more a privilege, but I was valued business.

Now excuse me, the match is on BBC 1

Funko
13-10-2005, 10:00:00
Originally posted by The Norks
you don't need a high credit rating to get a higher mortgage

No, but you might have to have a credit rating. A few years ago I couldn't get a credit card with anyone other than my bank because I had absolutely no credit history at all. And, whilst that was ok for things like searches when you were trying to rent somewhere unfortunately, that counted exactly the same as a fail on searches where people wanted to loan you stuff.

If he's never had a loan, credit card etc. he may well have no credit rating in that department which might mean that his options for mortgages are limited to his own bank so he couldn't shop around.

I'm sure she wouldn't recommend it for no reason.

MattHiggs
13-10-2005, 10:10:26
I have had a loan for £1200 and paid it off on time. My fiancé has had two loans - one for £800 and one for £1500 and she's paid both of them back on time.

I've also had a mobile phone contract for 3 years and have been paying car insurance off by direct debit. Hopefully with a credit card I can get a really good credit rating - and if I can get a little cashback in the meantime then that's a bonus!

Funko
13-10-2005, 10:17:22
I don't really know why you need a credit card then! :)

CAS FAN
13-10-2005, 14:58:46
I am a director and adviser within a Mortgage Broking firm so hopefully I can help.

Credit rating certainly affects what mortgage deals you can get. If you have a default on your record then you will be generally looking at a more specialist lender (not a high street one). For example if you try with Halifax then they will decline you and send you to their specialist arm (BM Solutions). If you have just been late with a couple of payments then this is less serious as long as it's just 1 or 2 late payments and that they are no more than 1 month late.

Also if you've never borrowed in the past then you will not have a good credit record as there is no evidence to back up whether you will pay the mortgage back OK. A history of good previous borrowing will mean that you can borrow more than someone who has not borrowed in the past.

For example a couple on a joint income of £40,000 who pay out say £300 p/m on an existing loan would be able to get a mortgage of around £144,000 with the Halifax if they had a credit score A. This would drop to £126,000 if their credit score was C. When you go below C then you enter the realms of adverse credit mortgages and it generally means that there is something wrong (Default, CCJ etc) with your credit record.

MattHiggs
13-10-2005, 15:19:20
I pay £450 rent at the moment, would that benefit my application?

CAS FAN
13-10-2005, 15:53:11
Not really, you may be able to use it in certain circumstances to show that you've maintained payments to something (i.e. to help in a borderline case). But paying rent doesn't alter your credit record as you are not repaying credit when you pay rent. Basically repaying money lent from authorised firms is what affects your credit record & score.

To give an idea of how it can be damaged, one customer I saw had a default and had been late on several occasions with loan and credit card payments. The credit score was an E if my memory serves which is light adverse. No highstreet lender (Abbey, Halifax, Nationwide, Yorkshire BS, Woolwich, C&G etc.) would take the business.

Although the property you are buying is used as security for the loan this does not mean that lenders are not bothered about people with poor credit. If someone doesn't keep up mortgage payments then it's not as easy as the Lender just chucking them out and selling the house. The lender has to prove that they have done everything possible (within reason) to try and resolve the situation with the mortgagor before they can go for re-possession. This takes a lot of time, money & effort on the Lenders part which is why some lenders don't provide mortgages to adverse credit applicants and why the ones that do charge higher interest rates to cover their risk.

MattHiggs
13-10-2005, 15:59:38
Bugger, I need to set up a DD for my phone then as I've been 2 weeks late on every payment for the passed 12 months. :D

Dyl Ulenspiegel
13-10-2005, 16:32:45
What I don't get - here, no credit history is good credit history. Why do you need a credit history from someone with a sufficient income for a secured loan?

King_Ghidra
13-10-2005, 16:35:59
i don't know dyl, but it has been that way for ages, i guess it's something along the lines of 'i have previously had a debt and proved i can pay it off'

i suppose it could be a protection against money laundering or suchlike

Gary
13-10-2005, 16:41:44
"I've previously laundered money before, and can do it again" ?

King_Ghidra
13-10-2005, 16:51:00
yeah whatever

Dyl Ulenspiegel
13-10-2005, 16:52:56
"I've laundered money before, and don't need your whiny little loans" ?

Nav
13-10-2005, 16:53:25
I was once turned down for a River Island store card. Suffice to say I never shopped there again (or applied for another card ever..).

Nills Lagerbaak
13-10-2005, 17:00:38
I personally think it's disgusting that those people who have avoided getting into debt by using other methods are penalised when they look for a mortgage - an effectively inescapeable loan.

Join the capitalist consumer culture or lose out. Stupid.



EDIT: I should rephrase that. "...people who have avoided getting into debt by not living beyond their means..."

CAS FAN
13-10-2005, 17:10:01
Originally posted by Dyl Ulenspiegel
What I don't get - here, no credit history is good credit history. Why do you need a credit history from someone with a sufficient income for a secured loan?

Easy, it's all about creating a record. How do they know if someone who has never borrowed before will be a reliable borrower?

Lenders don't want the time, hassle and cost of dealing with bad borrowers so someone with no previous history of borrowing is a risk. Someone on the other hand who has had 5 credit cards & 10 loans and paid them all off (or at least maintained them to dats) without missing payments is a good bet that they are reliable at paying off debts.

OK everyone can go through bad times and have credit problems so it's not a perfect method by any means, but it gives a good indication in most cases.

CAS FAN
13-10-2005, 17:16:54
Originally posted by Nills Lagerbaak
I personally think it's disgusting that those people who have avoided getting into debt by using other methods are penalised when they look for a mortgage - an effectively inescapeable loan.

Join the capitalist consumer culture or lose out. Stupid.



EDIT: I should rephrase that. "...people who have avoided getting into debt by not living beyond their means..."

Not really. There's nothing wrong with borrowing money if it's done responsibly. Infact virtually all of us borrow at some stage in our life (to buy a car, house etc.). If you've lived beyond your means and got into trouble with repayments then this will show up on your report.

Why is it disgusting that a lender looks at your previous history when it comes to repaying credit when you go to them to borrow money? They don't have to lend people money and after all it's the customer that has gone to them.

The thing is that they will not generally refuse you if you have no credit history, but they may exclude certain products.

Also if you have a good size deposit (say 15% - 25%) then that reduces their risk as well as even in times of negative equity they should still be able to recover their money through the sale of the house.

Look at it this way. In life do you assess certain situations before acting? Would you just lend money to anyone that you didn't know and had no info on just as you would to say someone you knew or could be vouched for by say a close friend? That's all Lenders do.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
13-10-2005, 17:23:18
Originally posted by CAS FAN
Easy, it's all about creating a record. How do they know if someone who has never borrowed before will be a reliable borrower?


Lenders assume that people who have had an income for several years and no debt are ar least as creditworthy as people who have had an income and debt for several years. The only thing an earlier record may predict is kust willingness (not ability) to pay - and that should be no problem. How many people say "doo di dooo - won't pay my mortgage for fun, love having my home reposessed..."

Nills Lagerbaak
13-10-2005, 17:27:48
Andf conversely the ability to pay off a credit card debt each month does in no way mean you are more likely to pay off a mortgage, which is an entirely different kind of loan.

CAS FAN
13-10-2005, 17:32:54
Originally posted by Dyl Ulenspiegel
Lenders assume that people who have had an income for several years and no debt are ar least as creditworthy as people who have had an income and debt for several years. The only thing an earlier record may predict is kust willingness (not ability) to pay - and that should be no problem. How many people say "doo di dooo - won't pay my mortgage for fun, love having my home reposessed..."

Not at all, people without credit records are first time buyers and are generally (not always but most of the time) young people who have been living with their parents and have had no need to even live to their means before. Some of these will turn out to be credit worthy and some of these will turn out not to be once the reigns have been cut and they have to fend for themselves.

Lenders sadly do not have a crystal ball to see who will turn out which way so these customers represent a greater risk to them than proven borrowers.


EDIT:
And conversely the ability to pay off a credit card debt each month does in no way mean you are more likely to pay off a mortgage, which is an entirely different kind of loan.

Actually it does. Admitidly sticking to credit card payments isn't as good as sticking to loan payments but it is at least some record of payment which is a good thing.

All a mortgage is is a big loan used to buy a house. The only diferences between a mortgage & personal loan is generally what it is used to buy and the term of the loan. Due to the shorter term of a personal loan (say 3-5 years) the monthly repayments are often comparable to some small mortgages (say £300 p/m).

Dyl Ulenspiegel
13-10-2005, 17:36:17
"Some of these will turn out to be credit worthy and some of these will turn out not to be once the reigns have been cut and they have to fend for themselves."

Well, that's another situation, but even in that one - having paid off credit card debt while living with mommy and daddy tells you what exactly?

CAS FAN
13-10-2005, 17:43:20
Originally posted by Dyl Ulenspiegel
"Some of these will turn out to be credit worthy and some of these will turn out not to be once the reigns have been cut and they have to fend for themselves."

Well, that's another situation, but even in that one - having paid off credit card debt while living with mommy and daddy tells you what exactly?

It tells you that the person at least has a degree of responsibility and realises that money borrowed must be repaid.

To be honest "Some of these will turn out to be credit worthy and some of these will turn out not to be once the reigns have been cut and they have to fend for themselves." is not another situation at all, it is in the majority of cases THE situation that we are discussing.

To not have a credit record the person must by definition be a First Time Buyer and if they've been to uni they will most likely have got into some debt so will have a record to some extent. Therefore the majority of FTB's without a credit history (which is who we are discussing here) will have been previously living with their parents. Some will have been renting but a fair proportion of people who have been renting will have some form of credit agreement to their name.

Lurker the Second
13-10-2005, 17:45:02
Assuming you lot have a secondary mortgage market like in the states, the credit requirements are predominately driven by that market's requirements. Volume lenders just don't have time to give each individual borrower the attention it would take to sort out credit risk issues, so they create a template. Is it perfect? No. Do people get treated in a manner that does not reflect their own individual risk? Yes.

CAS FAN
13-10-2005, 19:43:32
That's right Lurker. The likes of the Abbey, Halifax etc. just want clean low risk stuff that will generally go through quickly with minimal admin. They are therefore able to offer some great rates which are only really viable for them if they are processing large volumes of business.

If (like quite a lot of people in this country) your credit isn't perfect then you have to go with a lender that specialises in sub-prime business (the likes of BM Solutions, Preferred, GMAC etc. spring to mind). These are willing to do the extra underwriting and admin that is needed with these cases. As they are taking higher risks and carrying out more work you naturally pay a higher rate.

The Norks
13-10-2005, 20:19:01
Originally posted by Funko
No, but you might have to have a credit rating. A few years ago I couldn't get a credit card with anyone other than my bank because I had absolutely no credit history at all. And, whilst that was ok for things like searches when you were trying to rent somewhere unfortunately, that counted exactly the same as a fail on searches where people wanted to loan you stuff.

If he's never had a loan, credit card etc. he may well have no credit rating in that department which might mean that his options for mortgages are limited to his own bank so he couldn't shop around.

I'm sure she wouldn't recommend it for no reason.

Thats why I said 'as long as you have some form of credit' :)

The Norks
13-10-2005, 20:25:06
but I defer to Cas Fan, who is my trusty financial guru :)

CAS FAN
13-10-2005, 20:34:26
Originally posted by The Norks
but I defer to Cas Fan, who is my trusty financial guru :)

:smoke:

The Norks
13-10-2005, 20:53:49
its only because you look like sean bean ;)

CAS FAN
13-10-2005, 22:59:34
Originally posted by The Norks
its only because you look like sean bean ;)

And I thought that it was because of my indepth financial knowledge! :beer:

Gary
13-10-2005, 23:13:51
I often wondered what Mr. Bean's forename was.

Cruddy
14-10-2005, 00:20:14
Originally posted by MattHiggs
The problem is, to be honest, I don't know much about credit cards or anything about the best deals.


Well, yes. They sound like they don't cost anything when in fact they cost a fortune.

The best deal is never ever get one. And if you do get one, never ever use it. And if you do use it, always pay back the amount before the 6 weeks or whatever is up.

http://www.moneysavingexpert.com

It's actually a UK site. And it's fucking A1+++ for financial advice.

CAS FAN
14-10-2005, 00:40:21
Credit cards can be good if you have self control. They can help in budgeting and they also offer a good deal of protection when buying goods (especially online).

You should always keep track of what you are buying on it though and make sure that the bill is paid at the end of the month.

Problems naturally occur when you are spending both your disposible income as well as on your card. It should be one or the other really so that you don't reach the end of the month with a big credit card bill and nothing in your account to pay it with.

fp
14-10-2005, 00:46:28
Originally posted by Cruddy
And if you do use it, always pay back the amount before the 6 weeks or whatever is up.


Well ... duh!

MattHiggs
14-10-2005, 09:08:17
Wow, I was reading through the forum on the moneysaving website. There is a great guide on how to use online bookies intrductory offers to make hundreds in a few weeks!

Funko
14-10-2005, 09:12:07
As long as you never go back.

MattHiggs
14-10-2005, 09:25:42
After 6 weeks this guy made:

Cumulative P&L –
Matched Bets £477
Referal Bonuses £20
Rpoints £81
Bet Rescue Cheques £47
Total £628

Dyl Ulenspiegel
14-10-2005, 09:28:33
Originally posted by CAS FAN
It tells you that the person at least has a degree of responsibility and realises that money borrowed must be repaid.


So it tells you about willingness, not ability.

Maybe it's a cultural difference, or maybe because there is no real junk mortgage market here.

Funko
14-10-2005, 09:36:38
The ability is the other part of the combination, your earnings.

mr.G
14-10-2005, 09:43:03
MONEY FORUM !!!!!!!!!!

Dyl Ulenspiegel
14-10-2005, 09:45:42
Originally posted by Funko
The ability is the other part of the combination, your earnings.

Yes, that's what I said before.

Gary
14-10-2005, 09:45:43
It could be argued that the credit rating can be about past ability rather than willingness also. Damned imperfect systems !

Anyway, anyone that rejects my business doesn't deserve as wonderful a 'customer' as me.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
14-10-2005, 09:46:03
Originally posted by mr.G
MONEY FORUM !!!!!!!!!!

$-)

Nills Lagerbaak
14-10-2005, 09:48:33
Originally posted by Gary
It could be argued that the credit rating can be about past ability rather than willingness also. Damned imperfect systems !

Anyway, anyone that rejects my business doesn't deserve as wonderful a 'customer' as me.

Anyone who insists I live beyond my means in the hope that I'll fuck up to earn their business can kiss by butt!

Funko
14-10-2005, 09:49:26
Using a credit card and paying it off isn't living beyond your means...

Nills Lagerbaak
14-10-2005, 09:55:09
Borrowing money is living beyond your means. And they are waiting with baited breath for you to miss a payment.

Nav
14-10-2005, 09:57:32
If you can afford the repayments, that is not living beyond your means. Anybody sensible would only borrow at a level where they could afford the monthly repayments.

Funko
14-10-2005, 09:58:13
So anyone who has a mortgage is living beyond their means?

Or anyone who ever uses a credit card or gets a car loan or a student loan?

That's ridiculous. We should all save up for a house and buy one when we have the cash for the whole lot?

Nills Lagerbaak
14-10-2005, 10:06:28
No, but one should have the choice, and and not be peanalised (if you did decided to save up instead of borrow), by the mortgage lenders using some kind of imperfect system.

Funko
14-10-2005, 10:10:30
From the sounds of it saving (and therefore having a bigger deposit) will also benefit you but in a different way.

Nills Lagerbaak
14-10-2005, 10:13:28
True. Also the majority of people I know who have bought a house, as long as they've rented or something like that, the lender isn't interested in their credit history. It's just a function of deposit and a multiple of salary. Thre is some Government recommended multiple of salary too, but some lenders will allow you to hang by a thread (I refer you to the bloke I knew who was allowed 8x salary!!)

Funko
14-10-2005, 10:15:17
That was retarded - FACT

Nills Lagerbaak
14-10-2005, 10:18:03
Yeah central London is loco, house wise.

Gary
14-10-2005, 10:31:29
8 times ?!? Well I guess if you commit yourself to becoming a nudist breatharian for a few years, it might work.

MattHiggs
14-10-2005, 10:40:56
8 X my salary wouldn't get me anything more than a 2up 2down here. :(

LoD
14-10-2005, 10:42:39
Originally posted by Dyl Ulenspiegel
$-)

€-)

CAS FAN
14-10-2005, 11:23:18
Originally posted by Nills Lagerbaak
No, but one should have the choice, and and not be peanalised (if you did decided to save up instead of borrow), by the mortgage lenders using some kind of imperfect system.

You do have a choice. Noone forces you to borrow anything. Infact you are even allowed to save up for a house and buy it outright if you like. ;)

It may seem unfair that a past record can be advantageous but as you say, it shows a willingness and a level of responsibility to pay off credit. This is by no means crucial in getting a mortgage but with some lenders (generally your high volume highstreet lenders) it can affect how much they are willing to lend. You aren't penalised as such for not having a credit record, more that some lenders grant extra borrowing to those who have proved in the past that they can pay off credit.

Willingness and responsibilty are massive when it comes to paying back what you owe as believe it or not some people seem to live in the clouds and think that it's all free money :eek: . Everyone can fall into financial dificulties in their life and no matter how responsible they are they can still get into problems (say if they lose their job or get divorced!). The thing is that you can see someones past history of willingness but you can't predict the future. Credit scoring gives a remarkably good idea to the lender of how a person runs their life, along with their attitude to credit. It's not a perfect system as i've said before but it's the best thing that they have at their disposal.

Basically view it as...

Good Credit Record - a history of good responsible borrowing (i.e. not living beyong your means)

Normal Credit Record - no credit history good or bad. Therefore viewed more cautiously than the person who has "proved" a good record, but better than someone who has a bad record.

Bad Credit Record - someone who has borrowed & missed payments, defaults, been made bankrupt or had CCJ's imposed. Generally someone who is either not good with borrowing and lives beyond their means or someone who has sadly got into financial dificulties.

mr.G
14-10-2005, 11:27:46
why not?

CAS FAN
14-10-2005, 11:43:26
Originally posted by mr.G
why not?

Why not what? Is this in response to my post or an earlier one?

mr.G
14-10-2005, 11:45:31
why?

Nills Lagerbaak
14-10-2005, 11:45:33
Don't mess with this one, it's a wrong'un

CAS FAN
14-10-2005, 11:51:00
Originally posted by Nills Lagerbaak
Don't mess with this one, it's a wrong'un

Ah I see, I guess every forum has one. :D

Nills Lagerbaak
14-10-2005, 11:53:26
One? He's more than one person believe me...

Tizzy
14-10-2005, 11:53:31
We've got several

Dyl Ulenspiegel
14-10-2005, 11:55:42
We've got them all

Gary
14-10-2005, 12:13:38
Pokemon !

The Norks
14-10-2005, 18:46:09
Originally posted by CAS FAN
Credit cards can be good if you have self control.

ah..... I think I've identified my problem :D

CAS FAN
14-10-2005, 19:19:18
Originally posted by The Norks
ah..... I think I've identified my problem :D

Yes I found that was mine as well :D . I now have no credit cards as they are just not safe in my hands!