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View Full Version : Men and women are the same after all.


Funko
21-09-2005, 12:35:07
Just as I always thought.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4251968.stm

Drekkus
21-09-2005, 12:38:10
So we're all gay afterall?

King_Ghidra
21-09-2005, 13:09:25
i hope we are the same, because that would mean the number of supermodels out there looking for a threesome with me and their friend is dramatically higher than i have been led to believe

Funko
21-09-2005, 13:15:09
That just means there are a number of supermodels wanting to have a threesome with two other supermodels.

I'm assuming you don't want to have a threesome including some bearded bloke from Reading (in addition to yourself) and nor do they.

Venom
21-09-2005, 13:20:53
Of course that study's correct. Everyone hates me.

The Higgelhoff
21-09-2005, 13:34:15
Pfft, psychologically some things are fundamentally different every 4 weeks.

Tizzy
21-09-2005, 13:36:05
Aww, you get PMT Matt?

King_Ghidra
21-09-2005, 13:36:35
Originally posted by Funko
That just means there are a number of supermodels wanting to have a threesome with two other supermodels.

I'm assuming you don't want to have a threesome including some bearded bloke from Reading (in addition to yourself) and nor do they.

literal minded people are so annoying

The Higgelhoff
21-09-2005, 13:38:10
Originally posted by Tizzy
Aww, you get PMT Matt?

If i could menstrate I'd show you how it was done properly.

Childbirth also!

protein
21-09-2005, 13:53:44
Sorry, but they are not stereotypes. Conduct a simple experiment. Ask a man to go and buy a top, ask a woman to go and buy a top and the difference is there for all to see. Ask a man to explain his innermost feelings about something and then ask a woman. The difference will be clear there too.

DaShi
21-09-2005, 14:00:58
What's a top?

King_Ghidra
21-09-2005, 14:02:12
one of those little spinning toys

http://imagescommerce.bcentral.com/merchantfiles/4769337/TOP.jpg

Funko
21-09-2005, 14:04:28
Those are two of the worst stereotypes.

I know some males who are very open emotionally and some girls who aren't at all. I also know some girls who hate browsing whilst shopping and some boys who love it.

DaShi
21-09-2005, 14:05:22
Then what's a dreidl?

Venom
21-09-2005, 14:05:57
Stop trying to make excuses for your gayness.

King_Ghidra
21-09-2005, 14:07:07
Originally posted by DaShi
Then what's a dreidl?

http://the-light.com/mens/13/feat.gif

Funko
21-09-2005, 14:07:53
And right on cue Venom demonstrates social conditioning for me.

Venom
21-09-2005, 14:10:55
Yaaaaaay!!!!! I'm part of science!!!!

Funko
21-09-2005, 14:12:10
Everyone needs test subjects.

protein
21-09-2005, 14:12:18
Originally posted by Funko
Those are two of the worst stereotypes.

I know some males who are very open emotionally and some girls who aren't at all. I also know some girls who hate browsing whilst shopping and some boys who love it.
Not in my life experience. The only guy I know who likes browsing for clothes all day is is a gay guy called Ian. I've never met a man who wants to discuss his innermost feelings.

I know it's not going to be a black and white issue but sometimes stereotypes are there for a reason. On the whole there is a difference between men and women on those small issues. As for spacial awareness and agression I don't know. I know there are some excellent women soldiers and so on but I think I'm more likely to see drunken men rioting in Friar Street and less likely to see a woman in the SAS.

It's more like men are from Peckham and women are from Watford.

Nav
21-09-2005, 14:13:29
Originally posted by Funko
I know some males who are very open emotionally and some girls who aren't at all. I also know some girls who hate browsing whilst shopping and some boys who love it. So they're gay right?












;)

Funko
21-09-2005, 14:13:50
I was thinking of your bass player when I posted that shopping thing.

Men talking emotional feelings to other men very rarely happens 'cause they might get called gay - see Venom's post.

King_Ghidra
21-09-2005, 14:14:08
can't argue with protein's points

it's right of funko to point out the exceptions, but i agree with protein, the broad mass of people do fit the stereotypes

Funko
21-09-2005, 14:16:54
And the research showed:


When people were taken out of a situation where the people they were responding to knew whether they were male or female the responses didn't differ between the sexes.

Which implies that our behaviour is governed as much by what we think people will expect (ie conditioning) rather than some natural bias.

All you guys are saying is that society has some stereotypes and people tend to correspond to that (no argument from me).

What the research is saying is that there's no underlying physiological reason that should be the case, which also implies that if society and the conditioning was different we'd conform to different stereotypes.

King_Ghidra
21-09-2005, 14:26:15
and there'd be more bumming

protein
21-09-2005, 14:29:29
Okay, I'll use myself as an example. I can't talk about my innermost feelings because I don't really know what they are and if I did I wouldn't be able to articulate them in any way other than maybe waving my hands or making a noise or something.

I am absolutely unable to multi task. If someone is talking to me while I try to do something I can only do one thing or the other.

I hate shopping after about five minutes. I go directly for what I want and leave. Diane on the other hand is happy to forrage for hours and not actually buy anything.

That is not social conditioning. I genuinely cannot express my emotions and hate shopping.

I know that I have a capacity for extreme violence and I'm not sure girls do. I have more strength than the average woman and I am more likely to want to go and hang out with Ray Mears and hunt than any woman I know.

More men are into hard martial arts and boxing. Social conditioning aside, women try it and just don't like it. There are exceptions but they are in the minority.

In any society around the world the men are the direct hunters with a capacity for extreme violence and the women are thoughtful and caring with a motherly instinct and the ability to multi-task. I know it's un-PC and unfashionable to see differences but they are there and they are obvious.

Men love fire too. Women aren't really fussed.

The Higgelhoff
21-09-2005, 14:31:21
Ooh ooh, I love fire!

protein
21-09-2005, 14:32:28
You can't socially condition taste either. I bet if you gave bunch of men and women a selection of action movies, a few episodes of Ray Mears, a few episodes of America's next top model and a few episodes of celebrity love island, the viewing habits would differ wildly.

King_Ghidra
21-09-2005, 14:32:45
Originally posted by protein
Okay, I'll use myself as an example. I can't talk about my innermost feelings because I don't really know what they are and if I did I wouldn't be able to articulate them in any way other than maybe waving my hands or making a noise or something.

in my experience women don't know their own feelings either but they're happy to talk bollocks about them

let's get everyone heading in the male direction, much better

Tizzy
21-09-2005, 14:40:05
Ok, the flip side

Originally posted by protein
Okay, I'll use myself as an example. I can't talk about my innermost feelings because I don't really know what they are and if I did I wouldn't be able to articulate them in any way other than maybe waving my hands or making a noise or something.
Yep, me too. And not necessarily really deep feelings. I'm often unable to explain why I'm upset/angry/whatever, I just am.

I am absolutely unable to multi task. If someone is talking to me while I try to do something I can only do one thing or the other.

Ok, I can multi task, to an extent. I can't play guitar and do anything else at the same time, but I can read and watch TV (for example)

I hate shopping after about five minutes. I go directly for what I want and leave. Diane on the other hand is happy to forrage for hours and not actually buy anything.

Yep, I get psychotic very quickly. The only time I shop for hours is when it's a social thing, going shopping with a friend. That doesn't stop me getting fed up though.


I know that I have a capacity for extreme violence and I'm not sure girls do.

Violence, yes, extreme, no probably not

Men love fire too. Women aren't really fussed.
Ooh fire :)

But then they wouldn't be stereotypes without exceptions, they'd just be facts :)

Funko
21-09-2005, 14:47:38
Originally posted by protein
You can't socially condition taste either. I bet if you gave bunch of men and women a selection of action movies, a few episodes of Ray Mears, a few episodes of America's next top model and a few episodes of celebrity love island, the viewing habits would differ wildly.

As far as I'm concerned taste is only social conditioning.

Funko
21-09-2005, 14:51:15
People like what they like because of what they've been exposed to, in what environment, how they felt at that time etc.

King_Ghidra
21-09-2005, 14:54:13
i definitely agree with that to a large degree, but unfortunately we can only speculate as to what our non-conditoned behaviour as men and women is, because we can't really test that

if we were living in mud huts and hunting would we g othe way of our ancestors and conform to the same stereotypes after x thousand years of living that way?

Funko
21-09-2005, 14:56:10
That's a good question.

Nills Lagerbaak
21-09-2005, 15:16:32
Social conditioning aside you can't deny the different chemical make up for the male and female brain and the direct result that will have on mood / behaviour / habbits. Also how the areas of the brain physically differ will affect all the above.

Men and women are different and thank God for that, it'd be a pretty dull world otherwise.

Of course men and women will fall into different grades within the extremes, but take the average and there are clear differences.

We aren't different in that particular desires / behavioural traits are missing in one sex, just there to a greater / lesser degree.

I would have thought it's all rather obvious.....

Venom
21-09-2005, 15:22:47
Fuck this topic, I actually agree with Nills. If protein falls on this side of the line I may just have to kill myself.

Actually I'll just kill everyone else. The end result will be nearly the same.

King_Ghidra
21-09-2005, 15:29:47
so basically it's all down to testosterone and oestrogen

i don't buy it

testosterone might make me want to fuck girls, it might even make me want to beat up men who want to fuck my girl, but how can anyone claim that it is an inborn chemical situation which makes me want or not want to talk about my feelings? That is a societal concept, not something related to my survival etc. so highly unlikely to be from a biological source.

Funko
21-09-2005, 15:33:01
Yes. Well put K_G. I'm not even sure what's controversial about that.

protein
21-09-2005, 15:51:34
You can't deny that there is a clear and obvious difference in men and women. You can argue that it's brain chemisrty, social conditioning, because one has a clitoris and one has a willy, because we are different spiritual beings or whatever, the difference is blatently obvious and no matter how many scientific studies try and tell me men and women are the same I'm still a man and women are still women.

Nills Lagerbaak
21-09-2005, 15:56:10
Yeah, well as I said it's not just about chemicals. If you have one part of the brain that is larger than the rest you have more activity in this area. It is well known that there are parts of the brain that are for empathic use. These parts are generally larger in women and so the reward for "getting close and bonding with someone" is greater.

Nothing to do with conditioning, we just done't get the same kind of buzz out of things like bonding, organising, gathering etc.

The thing is the bigger a part of a brain, the more activity, the more reward. It's all brain activity that leads to chemicals that leads to reward, which is why we do things, not cos of what society says.

Funko
21-09-2005, 16:00:52
Yet still the similarities vastly outweigh the small numbers of differences.

Funko
21-09-2005, 16:02:44
Originally posted by protein
You can't deny that there is a clear and obvious difference in men and women. You can argue that it's brain chemisrty, social conditioning, because one has a clitoris and one has a willy, because we are different spiritual beings or whatever, the difference is blatently obvious and no matter how many scientific studies try and tell me men and women are the same I'm still a man and women are still women.

I find the idea of WHY there are differences interesting. I guess you don't which is fair enough. :)

Nills Lagerbaak
21-09-2005, 16:05:20
Obviously because we ultimately have the same brain!? We're not talking about big differences cos then we wouldn't be the same specieis, but we're talking about the differences that do exists and are plain to see.

Classic example. In some board rooms women are actually taking Testosterone pills to make them more aggressive an dless emotional so they feel they can hold their own with the males in the room!

Funko
21-09-2005, 16:07:12
Ah, an application for this research. :D If further research showed that female submissiveness in a conflict situation was actually learned behaviour rather than a physiological difference (as was the common thinking) it might mean that it's actually better to train the women to be more confident/agressive rather than feed them drugs.

King_Ghidra
21-09-2005, 16:12:21
Originally posted by Nills Lagerbaak
Yeah, well as I said it's not just about chemicals. If you have one part of the brain that is larger than the rest you have more activity in this area. It is well known that there are parts of the brain that are for empathic use. These parts are generally larger in women and so the reward for "getting close and bonding with someone" is greater.

Nothing to do with conditioning, we just done't get the same kind of buzz out of things like bonding, organising, gathering etc.

The thing is the bigger a part of a brain, the more activity, the more reward. It's all brain activity that leads to chemicals that leads to reward, which is why we do things, not cos of what society says.

there are bits of what you say that seem to make sense, but it is impossible to make sense of a comment like :

Nothing to do with conditioning, we just done't get the same kind of buzz out of things like bonding, organising, gathering etc.

because that is a nonsense. What is 'Male bonding' if not bonding then? What is making league structures for sports if not organising? What is sticker collecting or stamp collecting or trainspotting if not gathering?

Nills Lagerbaak
21-09-2005, 16:15:16
The point is this - these were all career women, they wanted to climb to the top of the ladder. They said that there came a point where they couldn't single mindedly pusue a point to the level that was required to get them past a certain level, went to the doctor and he suggested that they might like to [fuck themselves up and] take Testosterone. So they clearly had ample opportunity to "learn" the calssic male traits, but ultimately it was a biological barrier.

Funko
21-09-2005, 16:16:25
It's unlike you (as a scientist) to exclude new research shedding new light on old problems.

Funko
21-09-2005, 16:19:26
And there are women who make it to the top. So is it because they aren't agressive enough? Or because the business they are in is predjudiced against them?

How do we know that the reason they aren't getting any further is because of the reason they 'feel' that they aren't getting further?

There may be something in it but it's very sloppily argued.

Nills Lagerbaak
21-09-2005, 16:28:22
It's slopply argued because
a) It was more of a sociologial article
b) I read it years ago.

No problems with new research shedding new light on things but as Protein says there are huge (relatively speaking, of course) differences between men and women and I am more than happy with the existing biological explanations for this difference.
No doubt this bilogical difference has occured through evolution and no doubt mankind would not have survived without it.
What would be really telling is to perform brain disection on males and females in 200 odd years' time and see if these biological differences still exist.

protein
21-09-2005, 16:32:31
Originally posted by Funko
I find the idea of WHY there are differences interesting. I guess you don't which is fair enough. :)
I don't worry about them. These studies seem to imply that the differences are a bad thing. I think they are to be celebrated. It's down to brain make up, brain chemistry, social conditioning and sexuality. It's no one thing it's a sum of all sorts of things.

There isn't a nagging gene and there isn't a drinking beer and sitting around in your underpants lobe.

protein
21-09-2005, 16:38:23
The fact that sexuality, looking at your favored sex, aquiring sex, hunting for sex, feeling guilty about sex and so on will play a big part in your make up. I don't want to find myself a fit young healthy man with a thick penis to settle down with. I want a sexy, caring feminine woman. My behaviour is taylored towards that.

I think if at birth we put a male brain in a female body or a female brain in a male body it would be more of an interesting study.

Would they seek gender re-assignment or is there no suck thing as the male and female brain. Is sexuality and predisposition all bullshit? Could we reassign somebody's sexuality through conditioning or is it genetic? Could we make a man flitter around for ages while shopping instead of just targeting and getting what he wants? Could we see women in the SAS? Could we stop men from wanting to barbeque?

Funko
21-09-2005, 17:40:44
There are practical problems with that.

Gary
21-09-2005, 17:55:22
The boy with no penis (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/dr_money_trans.shtml)

Googled (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2004-12,GGLD:en&q=David+Reimer)

protein
21-09-2005, 18:02:21
Originally posted by Funko
There are practical problems with that.
Come on. They can do it in the movies. It would be a great experiment!

The Norks
21-09-2005, 18:14:41
i'm with funko, its 99% social conditioning. You only have to look at cultures different to our own to see that. In fact you only have to look at feral children to see it- they can emulate a dog perfectly but can't interact with humans because thats the conditioning they had growing up.

My new bloke likes shopping and talking.

protein
21-09-2005, 18:37:53
So you think the only difference between men and women is genetalia? Does social conditioning make sexuality? Does social conditioning make a woman a safer driver or a better police radio operator? Does social conditioning make men on the whole have slightly superior spacial and aural awareness?

Why can't women play the drums? Why can't men talk on the phone for more than ten seconds?

Lazarus and the Gimp
21-09-2005, 19:31:42
Originally posted by protein
Okay, I'll use myself as an example. I can't talk about my innermost feelings because I don't really know what they are and if I did I wouldn't be able to articulate them in any way other than maybe waving my hands or making a noise or something.


I can. I'm just self-aware and articulate.


I am absolutely unable to multi task. If someone is talking to me while I try to do something I can only do one thing or the other.


I can multi-task. This is not a reason for being a man. It's a reason for being a drummer.


I hate shopping after about five minutes. I go directly for what I want and leave. Diane on the other hand is happy to forrage for hours and not actually buy anything.


I can window-shop all day.


I know that I have a capacity for extreme violence and I'm not sure girls do.


Pfft. While I'm a monster with words, I'm a cuddly bunny with physical actions.


More men are into hard martial arts and boxing.


I think they're deeply homoerotic, personally. I prefer cricket.


In any society around the world the men are the direct hunters with a capacity for extreme violence and the women are thoughtful and caring with a motherly instinct


I'm going part-time to spend more time with my kids.


Men love fire too. Women aren't really fussed.

OK- you got me there.

Chris
21-09-2005, 21:04:45
Long winded pricks, like I would read all of those posts.

Japher
21-09-2005, 21:27:23
The first post was too long

and they just got longer after that

Chris
21-09-2005, 22:19:31
If its longer then three lines, it ain't worth reading.

Funko
22-09-2005, 09:18:18
Originally posted by protein
So you think the only difference between men and women is genetalia?

No.

But I think the majority of differences are social and only very few are biological. In your examples you constantly mix up social, biological and psychological differences without any distinction.

"men and women are the same" is just sensationalist headlining that I copied from the article.

Gary
22-09-2005, 09:25:13
Ha ! You humans are all the same !

* storms off in a huff *