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RedFred
29-08-2005, 20:24:58
Looks like a major disaster in Louisiana.

They always talk about the engineering work needed to keep much of Holland water free, but I totally never realized how much of the American SE is on pretty low land that is at or below sea level. I'm guessing the same effort goes to maintaining much of that part of the world from flooding too.

alsieboo
29-08-2005, 20:28:41
aww and I thought this was about the walking on sunshine person. I was Katrinas smallest wave at some point. Not *the* Katrina, obviously, but someone else.

Venom
29-08-2005, 20:34:09
Could've been much worse too.

Drekkus
29-08-2005, 22:37:10
So were there any real floods?

Venom
30-08-2005, 01:08:35
New Orleans is going to be pretty well underwater, but not as bad as was feared from a direct hit from the full power of the storm.

RedFred
02-09-2005, 15:28:58
Yeah, it's been top story on all our news channels.

I was surprised there wasn't a thread.

-Funko

Gary
02-09-2005, 15:33:14
No one else came here - thought it was a refugee thread from the music forum (as implied by alsieboo, above).

MDA
02-09-2005, 15:35:06
Just got this forwarded from a cowie, Y and X are friends he went to graduate school with. I'm worried that things are going to get much worse before they get better.

"I just talked to X. Things are a good deal worse than I had thought. Y is trapped on the roof of university hospital. She hasn't had anything to eat for 2 days and barely anything to drink. Helicopters are unable to rescue her because people keep shooting at them. It is very hot and she is wearing a bulletproof vest."

Gary
02-09-2005, 15:42:47
Echos of the Chicago Tribune report I read earlier ...

"My co-worker's brother is one of seven doctors who have been left behind at Charity Hospital," the man wrote at mid-day. "...He is in a panic--the doctors have barricaded themselves on the seventh floor because armed gunmen are outside threatening them and demanding access to the roof so they can be rescued first. He is desperate. Someone needs to help these people NOW!"

novacane
02-09-2005, 15:47:40
Great thread title

Venom
02-09-2005, 15:53:20
Good to see that despite years of warning and planning they're still turning this thing into a clusterfuck.

Lurker the Second
02-09-2005, 16:09:52
Took a sec for me to realize this thread is not new -- some of those earlier posts seemed a bit out of whack.

Debaser
02-09-2005, 16:13:20
Some guy's been keeping quite an interesting Blog from the *front lines* as it were... Parts of it read like he's talking about Bagdad or somewhere...

http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/

Nills Lagerbaak
02-09-2005, 17:02:49
It would appear that blues legend Fats Domino is amogst the missing :( I hope he's safe on blueberry hill.

Oerdin
02-09-2005, 17:05:31
Originally posted by Venom
Good to see that despite years of warning and planning they're still turning this thing into a clusterfuck.

An't that the truth? The talking heads on TV keep saying that no one could have know a huricanne would hit N.O. and cause a levee break then a different station would point out that they've had periodic reports going back 25 years warning that just such a thing could happen unless they strengthen the old levees and make emergency plans. All those years they could have done something just in case but yet they're still acting like a 3rd world country.

Gary
02-09-2005, 17:06:06
Apparently his daughter claimed she's seen him being airlifted (newspaper or TV report or something) but his whereabouts is not now known.

Gary
02-09-2005, 17:07:32
No votes in spending taxpayers' money ?

lightblue
02-09-2005, 17:11:20
What scares me is how easy the veneer of civility and society is scratched away and how quickly a Western city turns into some kind of waterlogged Mogadishu.

Funko
02-09-2005, 17:16:33
Civilisation only works when there is reward for being good, combined with punishment for being bad and a good chance you will be caught.

Funko
02-09-2005, 17:17:10
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma

Oerdin
02-09-2005, 17:18:05
Originally posted by Gary
No votes in spending taxpayers' money ?

Yes, much better to see the city destroyed.

Gary
02-09-2005, 17:18:39
I suspect that's only true for a proportion, but that's all you need to screw everyone up. Can't go on being the decent guy when others are just shoving the decent guys out the way.

Tomorrow's maybe disaster against today's certain tax & spend.

Funko
02-09-2005, 17:19:59
Exactly. If everyone else is being selfish you have to be selfish too or you lose out. If everyone (or the vast majority) is co-operating then co-operation is the best strategy.

Oerdin
02-09-2005, 17:27:31
Originally posted by lightblue
What scares me is how easy the veneer of civility and society is scratched away and how quickly a Western city turns into some kind of waterlogged Mogadishu.

The shit is a giant cluster fuck.

http://a.im.craigslist.org/sk/7V/6UwEjNFhxvdmql6a4nbMCCT8l17x.jpg

http://b.im.craigslist.org/7j/yM/1p1VNoflgNjOzCFLyaNRk03dCcwe.jpg

Venom
02-09-2005, 17:49:49
Originally posted by Nills Lagerbaak
It would appear that blues legend Fats Domino is amogst the missing :( I hope he's safe on blueberry hill.

They found him some time ago safe and sound.

Resource Consumer
02-09-2005, 18:27:04
Probably a bad time to add that I once supported Katrina and the Waves - the embarassment was/is mutual I am sure.

And, more on topic, all the best to those afflicted - looks like a very tough one.

Resource Consumer
02-09-2005, 18:28:17
Originally posted by Funko
Civilisation only works when there is reward for being good, combined with punishment for being bad and a good chance you will be caught.

Civilisation only works without infinite range missiles - like young Katrina

Scabrous Birdseed
04-09-2005, 10:42:47
Apparently Alex Chilton is among the missing.

Debaser
04-09-2005, 16:41:10
Yeah, I heard that too. :(

The Norks
04-09-2005, 17:39:13
who?

Noisy
04-09-2005, 17:52:01
Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Chilton)

The Norks
04-09-2005, 18:21:55
again, who?

Debaser
04-09-2005, 18:27:51
He writes songs and was in the band Big Star.

The Norks
04-09-2005, 18:43:28
I've never heard of him or them.

Lazarus and the Gimp
04-09-2005, 19:27:36
They were possibly the greatest example of a band who should have been huge, but never were.

Debaser
04-09-2005, 19:31:57
You can get a double CD of the Big Star albums '#1 Record' and 'Radio City', and if you're a fan of sort of 60s tinged Gram Parson's style country pop it's an essential purchase (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000026F48/qid=1125858621/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_11_1/026-2863712-2043607)

DevilsH@lo
04-09-2005, 19:50:51
I am truly truly saddened at how quickly this turned from a natural disaster into lawlessness on a grand scale.

Are we as civilised as we try to convince ourselves?

I'm not going to start on attacking the country or the people involved, at the end of the day people are people, and brixton and toxteth taught me well enough that no matter where you come from people are capable of some horrible things.

Nature has given us a kicking several times before, and then we double the death rate by handling it so completely ineptly. I wonder if other cultures historically would have dealt with it so badly.

I hope that the forum hasn't lost anyone or anyone close.

Lee
:(

The Norks
04-09-2005, 20:42:27
hell is other people

Gary
05-09-2005, 00:19:31
Hell Is In Hello
Heaven Is Good-Bye Forever It's Time For Me To Go

Iskandar Reza
05-09-2005, 07:04:45
I'm surprised it took soooo long to organise the disaster relief effort, I mean for such an advanced nation... the level of service is really shameful.

But then again, the American government isn't known for their ability to win people's hearts and minds... *sigh*

Gary
05-09-2005, 08:20:20
What I find equally puzzling is the viewpoint of some Americans I've read on other forums. That of, don't blame Bush and the administration, we look after our own here. Almost as if the Amercian posters don't see themselves as a single group that are supposed to help each other. Southerners look after themselves ?

Drekkus
05-09-2005, 09:09:26
Even Bush is lost for words: CNN breaking news email from last saturday:

-- President Bush:

Watch CNN or log on to http://CNN.com and watch FREE video.
More Americans watch CNN. More Americans trust CNN.

Gary
05-09-2005, 09:25:55
:confused:

Nills Lagerbaak
05-09-2005, 09:28:33
Well, again, without wanting to start a political debate, but one good thing that *might* come of this is increased awareness about just how massive the rich / poor divide in the states is. Hopefully, anyway.

Kitsuki
05-09-2005, 10:05:37
Or at least how shitty the welfare state is. (by that I mean how inadeqaute theirs is!)

Kitsuki
05-09-2005, 10:07:58
Meh, spelling.

Drekkus
05-09-2005, 11:30:22
Originally posted by Nills Lagerbaak
Well, again, without wanting to start a political debate, but one good thing that *might* come of this is increased awareness about just how massive the rich / poor divide in the states is. Hopefully, anyway. I think it merely makes clear that socially lower groups have less access to decision makers. The amount of the final release effort won't be any less then when it would have been another group, it just came about later.

Iskandar Reza
05-09-2005, 11:42:49
Originally posted by Drekkus
I think it merely makes clear that socially lower groups have less access to decision makers....

Is that an own-goal?

Drekkus
05-09-2005, 12:00:23
No. Why do you think that?

Iskandar Reza
05-09-2005, 12:06:21
Seems pretty obvious. The poor are usually found to be the ones marginalized. And decision makers only remember them during elections. Same old same old in every country I would imagine.

Drekkus
05-09-2005, 12:14:54
No, that's what I'm trying to make clear. What's intended in the poor/rich divide is a 'we don't care about the poor' attitude. What I'm saying is that the urgent needs of the poor aren't finding it's way to the top as easily as the needs of people with connections. It's more of a information/ connectivity problem than a 'fuck the poor' problem. i think even Bush is concerned about the people there, now the problem is clear.

Debaser
05-09-2005, 12:16:45
Is the mayor of New Orleans really called Ray Nagin? Surely that's tempting fate...

Drekkus
05-09-2005, 12:25:25
:lol:

Funko
05-09-2005, 12:26:00
:lol:

Gary
05-09-2005, 13:01:03
:lol:

Kitsuki
05-09-2005, 13:03:14
:lol:

Nills Lagerbaak
05-09-2005, 13:13:08
:lol: Did you make that up / realise that? If so, :smoke: to you! It's not that obvious and took me a couple of seconds....

Debaser
05-09-2005, 13:13:38
Of course *cough*

Nills Lagerbaak
05-09-2005, 13:16:46
Originally posted by Drekkus
No, that's what I'm trying to make clear. What's intended in the poor/rich divide is a 'we don't care about the poor' attitude. What I'm saying is that the urgent needs of the poor aren't finding it's way to the top as easily as the needs of people with connections. It's more of a information/ connectivity problem than a 'fuck the poor' problem. i think even Bush is concerned about the people there, now the problem is clear.


Yeah, the cult of the individual and lack of any decent welfare state / community spirit surely doesn't make things any easier...

Drekkus
05-09-2005, 13:22:46
Originally posted by Nills Lagerbaak
Yeah, the cult of the individual and lack of any decent welfare state / community spirit surely doesn't make things any easier... I've been only 3 weeks in the states, but I had the feeling the sense of community is bigger there then in Holland. I think the welfare state encourages the cult of the individual...

Nills Lagerbaak
05-09-2005, 13:27:44
I don't think so. I do hear about close community relations between very specific groups of society.

Drekkus
05-09-2005, 13:39:43
Originally posted by Nills Lagerbaak
I don't think so. Well, I do. :D

Nills Lagerbaak
05-09-2005, 14:48:55
hmm, wasting silicone again? :p

Drekkus
05-09-2005, 15:06:17
Don't be silly.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
05-09-2005, 15:30:37
Originally posted by Drekkus
It's more of a information/ connectivity problem than a 'fuck the poor' problem.

Well there's a bit more to it. In politics (and that problem is taken to an extreme in America), lobbies and money count. There is no pork to distribute and no special interests to serve in army-run flood protection. There is no pork to distribute and no politically relevant interests to serve in rescueing the poor stranded in New Orleans. Only now is something like a concern for common welfare arising - as long as the attention span of the media lasts.

The real party will get going with all the pork to throw around in reconstruction.

This amounts to fuck the poor. As well as fuck the politically inactive middle class. Etc etc.

Iskandar Reza
05-09-2005, 16:36:25
Bingo. There you go.

Drekkus
05-09-2005, 17:12:43
Originally posted by Dyl Ulenspiegel
Well there's a bit more to it. In politics (and that problem is taken to an extreme in America), lobbies and money count. There is no pork to distribute and no special interests to serve in army-run flood protection. There is no pork to distribute and no politically relevant interests to serve in rescueing the poor stranded in New Orleans. Only now is something like a concern for common welfare arising - as long as the attention span of the media lasts.

The real party will get going with all the pork to throw around in reconstruction.

This amounts to fuck the poor. As well as fuck the politically inactive middle class. Etc etc. I think 'fuck the poor' would amount to little to no help at all. Bureaucratic delays in all the layers of governance, lack of clear responsibilities caused a slow response. But I guess it's more fun to blame bush :D
I don't quite get the pork bit about the building up contracts. I reckon that will take a while too, sorting out all the biddings.

Nills Lagerbaak
05-09-2005, 17:22:43
Rebuilding contracts will involve a lot of interest from a lot of parties, as there is money to be made, captive markets to be won. Hence the fact it will happen and quickly.

Noone wins anything by rescuing people, except maybe good rep. but not doing anything will not create a problem that some money couldn't fix....

protein
05-09-2005, 17:24:34
pork?

Provost Harrison
05-09-2005, 17:26:02
Not just now thanks, I've just eaten...

Nills Lagerbaak
05-09-2005, 17:28:46
Hell yes. I'm gonna have that funny pork pie for dinner, the one with a big egg in the middle.

Gary
05-09-2005, 18:02:53
Gala Pie

Dyl Ulenspiegel
05-09-2005, 22:44:15
Originally posted by Drekkus
But I guess it's more fun to blame bush :D


It's always fun to bash the little retard, but this is not limited to him, and the democrats are hardly different.

RedFred
06-09-2005, 20:25:30
I don't particularly blame Americans or Bush. Sometimes the disaster is just too big in scale for anyone to cope with. Same as the Japanese struggled with the Kobe earthquake. And as the old saying about civilization goes, we are all just three missed meals away from total anarchy.

But there could have been better planning in place. I have it on could authority that if they had just driven a chevy to the levee, then the levee would have been dry.

JM^3
06-09-2005, 20:31:10
the system failed at every level...

including the feneral

while Bush didn't do much that was directly wrong

he did fail to provide leadership

and appointed disasters like the current FEMA director (who is very much directly to blame, I would sue him if I was from the area or had family in the area)

Jon Miller

Qaj the Fuzzy Love Worm
06-09-2005, 22:12:04
People, please! All this talk about who is to blame is fruitless, especially so now that we know Trent Lott's house is going to be rebuilt.

Venom
06-09-2005, 22:14:24
Here's an interesting stat...182,000 people have been rescued according to an article on Drudge.

Which, if true, means it's too damn bad it took so long to get people off their rooftops, because 182,000 is a damn lot of people. Way too many to rescue in any kind of speedy time.

Drekkus
06-09-2005, 23:59:11
Originally posted by RedFred
I have it on could authority that if they had just driven a chevy to the levee, then the levee would have been dry. :lol:

Venom
07-09-2005, 02:08:58
Well played RedFred. Well played.

Greg W
07-09-2005, 04:28:32
Originally posted by Venom
Here's an interesting stat...182,000 people have been rescued according to an article on Drudge.From everything I have read on the subject (granted, not a lot), people were told to flee the area days beforehand, weren't they? So is this saying that 182,000+ people ignored those warnings and stayed?

And :lol: at RedFred.

Venom
07-09-2005, 04:48:44
Well, the dumbass mayor only ordered and evacuation 24 hours before hand, but that's enough time. For most people that is. Only morons and poor people left.

Iskandar Reza
07-09-2005, 07:35:56
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40765000/jpg/_40765970_buses.jpg

Who's dumbass idea was this? Resource not utilized.

Gary
07-09-2005, 08:35:38
Yay ! Bridges out !

Provost Harrison
07-09-2005, 11:23:45
Originally posted by Iskandar Reza
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40765000/jpg/_40765970_buses.jpg

Who's dumbass idea was this? Resource not utilized.

Sad really. I wonder how many people that fleet would have shifted :rolleyes:

Greg W
07-09-2005, 11:29:48
From the looks of it, they're school busses. Regulations probably state school children only. And bus drivers are sticklers for regulations. ;)

Funko
07-09-2005, 11:30:58
They were evacuating people in school buses, was one of the evacuation measures

MDA
07-09-2005, 12:19:59
:lol: Redfred

Figure out who to blame later, just fix the problem at hand and work out a new evacuation plan.

A lot of the problems seem to have been ones that could have been addressed anytime in the last few decades, so its difficult to blame the current people in government.

Actually its easy to blame them, I'm just not convinced its warranted.

Gary
07-09-2005, 12:41:23
Where does the buck stop :)

Venom
08-09-2005, 03:02:40
Hey, here's more good news.

http://hughhewitt.com/archives/2005/09/04-week/index.php#a000211

Way to go LA state government. Well played assholes.