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Funko
11-08-2005, 11:40:58
Bah, Berkshire Live broke as I was writing a response to something protein wrote there and it's annoying me so I'm going to post it here.

Basically, someone compared Green Day to Busted and protein was agreeing and saying that they both basically "chose to make that kind of music to cash in on the teenybopper market"


I just wanted to say that is total and utter bullshit.

When Greenday formed in the mid-80s there was no way anyone who was choosing a genre for commercial reward would be making that kind of music. Their stuff's more a progression from underground 80s punk bands like Bad Religion who were decidedly uncomercial.

They were a small band who build up a cult following on an independent label and built the kind of success that made the majors sit up and take notice. They just happen to be a band that write good pop hooks that mean they can break out of their underground genre and become a huge global hit, and take their music to the mainstream. In the same way as people like Iron Maiden or the Sugarhill gang did.

The fact that someone like Busted can make money playing music from that kind of genre these days is, I think, 90% down to the amazing and surprising popularity that Green Day have achieved over the past 15 years and the popularity of all the bands they influenced.

Plus, I know protein only thinks of 'punk' as being music made in 1980 by ignorant thugs but the history of 'punk' music is long, complex and ever changing from the 60s to the present day. This, after all, is a genre where depending on the context both Velvet Underground and Black Flag could appear.

Here's a relatively good history which is quite nicely split into a bunch of the different flavours:

http://www.fastnbulbous.com/punk.htm


Saying "Green Day and Busted are exactly the same, they just made that music to exploit the teenyboppers market" is exactly the same as saying "N.W.A and 50 Cent are the same, they just chose to make that music to exploit the teenyboppers market" it's just ridiculous.

No-one's saying you have to like them, but that statement just really riled me in it's ignorance.

/Rant Over, sorry.

Provost Harrison
11-08-2005, 11:55:04
Bravo.

King_Ghidra
11-08-2005, 12:00:18
well said

Gramercy Riffs
11-08-2005, 12:06:51
Excellent point Mike.

novacane
11-08-2005, 12:09:40
They are quite incomparable. And your rant articulately explains the reasons for that.

I'm no Green Day fan, but as artists, they command infinitely more respect from me than Busted do.

However, it is true to say that Green Day did contribute to the opening of a pop-punk market (and for that I am not grateful to them) and in that respect I think Green Day have wandered too far along the path of commercialism to be considered an important band any more which perhaps draws the comparisons with the likes of Busted. But, even so, the music Green Day are making is still infinitely more respectable than any other bands in that pop-punk bracket. IMO

Debaser
11-08-2005, 12:13:03
I kind of agree with most of what you're saying Mike, but I disagree that "the history of 'punk' music is long, complex and ever changing from the 60s to the present day. This, after all, is a genre where depending on the context both Velvet Underground and Black Flag could appear."

Punk as a genre was influenced by many things, for example the Beat literature from the early 50's, Dadist artists like Marcell Duchamp, painters like Jackson Pollock etc, but it's year zero has always been 1975, and while they shared many similar influences, retrospectively trying to shoe-horn bands like the Velvet Underground into the punk scene is bullshit. They were an influence on punk, but no more or no less than many other things.

Gramercy Riffs
11-08-2005, 12:20:35
You could argue that punk began in the 60's.

It was clearly born out of the garage rock scene (MC5, the Monks etc).

Debaser
11-08-2005, 12:25:38
Born out of maybe, but it only really comes together as a whole new genre when all the parts that make it intrinsically *punk* collide, eg the sound, the look, and the attitude/lifestyle/outlook/ethos or whatever, and that didn't happen until 1975.

novacane
11-08-2005, 12:27:40
But, who were they influenced by.............?

Attempting to put a date on these things is impossible. Its more about evolution.

Gramercy Riffs
11-08-2005, 12:27:44
True.

I guess maybe Malcolm McClaren started it over here, with the shop "Sex", etc.

protein
11-08-2005, 13:50:16
I guess the bottom line is:

When you first heard Green Day, the year that they came out, did you think

A) "wow, this is a totally new kind of music that is really exciting"

or did you think

B) "Oh god, how dreary, more crappy music that I've heard in various forms before that is made for teenagers to play loud when they argue with their parents"?

and I think my point may have been missed/badly made. All I am saying is that busted and green day are in the same identical genre - americanised safe "punk" for teens. I don't think any parent would really have a problem buying their kids a Green Day or Busted album.

Funko, I don't think punk was invented by thugs at all. I think it was a British fashion/political/drug movement that went alongside loud, aggressive and groundbreaking new DIY music.

Funko
11-08-2005, 14:13:46
I didn't hear them when they came out (when their first single came out, I was only 11 and not into any music at all then let alone underground US punk bands).

I heard them years later when Dookie came out and they got way more famous. At that point I really enjoyed that album though and got some of their earlier stuff. I hadn't heard anything exactly like it before at that point, and now I know more about it I can't think of anything that was just like Green Day when they came out. They were a progression of stuff sure, but no-one had done quite what they did.

Anyway, much closer to A than B.


Generally I think that "music for teenagers to play loud when they argue with their parents" is a good thing. It certainly applies to a lot of my favourite bands. Nirvana, RatM, At the Drive-In, Therapy? etc.

Funko
11-08-2005, 14:15:53
And it certainly applies to the English punk bands that you do like.

Anyway, I'm not saying you have to like them, just have a more realistic perspective.

protein
11-08-2005, 14:28:03
What English punk bands? Sex Pistols? I like a couple of their tracks.

I like Siouxie and the Banchees. Are they punk?

Funko
11-08-2005, 14:30:27
Whenever this subject comes up you always rant on about how it's not really punk and the only thing that really is is British bands from 1980. If you don't even like those I'm really confused as to why you get quite so worked up about it. :confused:

novacane
11-08-2005, 14:30:59
I'd say they were more goth. "Glamour-goth". Quite punky at times though.

Gramercy Riffs
11-08-2005, 14:34:39
Post Punk?

Funko
11-08-2005, 14:37:09
I like Post Punk and Post Rock I think. Funny how different they are. :)

protein
11-08-2005, 14:37:34
70s and 80s.

I guess it reminds me of the term "r'n'b". It's just not r'n'b nowerdays is it? Similar situation. Different era, different political climate, different social structures and views, different music, different country.

As far as I can tell, punk was not good clean living healthy all american jocks driving down the freeway in an open top sports cars, recording in the biggest most technologically advanced Pro Tools HD3 studios and making million dollar pop videos. It was council estates and working in woolworths, spots, cheap speed and crap musical equipment recorded in crap recording studios.

Nills Lagerbaak
11-08-2005, 14:37:49
Green day were certainly uniques when I heard them (and that was after they'd released a few albums) I guess then you had the offspring who started off quite good, and then destroyed themselves with pretty fly (for a white guy).

Oh and Nirvana? Yuk, what a load of racket :) Like metal without the good bits.

novacane
11-08-2005, 14:38:33
Something about Siouxie and the banshees being post-punk
Yes, yes, I think they transcended the punk - post-punk era with their brand of gothic glamour.

novacane
11-08-2005, 14:39:28
Fucking hell. Its like Piccadilly Circus here

Funko
11-08-2005, 14:40:07
Originally posted by protein
As far as I can tell, punk was not good clean living healthy all american jocks driving down the freeway in an open top sports cars, recording in the biggest most technologically advanced Pro Tools HD3 studios and making million dollar pop videos.

Clearly you've made up this mental image of what you think they are like and applied it to Green Day. That bears no relation to their reality.

Nills Lagerbaak
11-08-2005, 14:40:56
Originally posted by protein
70s and 80s.

I guess it reminds me of the term "r'n'b". It's just not r'n'b nowerdays is it? Similar situation. Different era, different political climate, different social structures and views, different music, different country.

As far as I can tell, punk was not good clean living healthy all american jocks driving down the freeway in an open top sports cars, recording in the biggest most technologically advanced Pro Tools HD3 studios and making million dollar pop videos. It was council estates and working in woolworths, spots, cheap speed and crap musical equipment recorded in crap recording studios.

Speaking of which, I shall be seeing the mightiest west country punk band Chaos UK perform their last ever gig on saturday :( Now if punk's not about drinking cider I don't know what is. Anyone want to come along?! I'm sure they'll do some punked up wurzles

novacane
11-08-2005, 14:42:22
Punk.

I mean. What is it? Can anybody offer a definition.

protein
11-08-2005, 14:42:51
Cider with lager, blackcurrent and a dab of whizz.

protein
11-08-2005, 14:43:18
hmm. an x-post but a valid definition.

novacane
11-08-2005, 14:45:15
:lol:

Its as relevant as all the others offered on this thread.

Nills Lagerbaak
11-08-2005, 14:48:38
Originally posted by protein
Cider with lager, blackcurrent and a dab of whizz.

And a lot of piercings. A perfect definition. Tempted to submit it to wikipedia

protein
11-08-2005, 14:49:08
Some might argue that punk means uncompromising diy music. That definition also excludes Green Day.

Gramercy Riffs
11-08-2005, 14:50:14
Punk = Uncompromising

IMHO

protein
11-08-2005, 14:54:47
I have an article on Green Day's recording process that you can all read if you like.

It goes into great detail about all the robotic drum quantising, computerised vocal aligning, tuning and automated doubled swooping bends, guitar tremelo swell automation tempo maps etc etc.

I've never heard of a non r'n'b or pop/rap act being so digitally compromised before.

novacane
11-08-2005, 15:00:10
Punk = Blood & Snot

IMHO

Funko
11-08-2005, 15:39:47
Originally posted by protein
I have an article on Green Day's recording process that you can all read if you like.

It goes into great detail about all the robotic drum quantising, computerised vocal aligning, tuning and automated doubled swooping bends, guitar tremelo swell automation tempo maps etc etc.

I've never heard of a non r'n'b or pop/rap act being so digitally compromised before.

Their first album was recorded at a local San Fransisco studio, produced by the drummer and cost $400.

Now they've sold 20 million records and can use the best studios and techniques in the world.

I reckon most artists at that level using the best studios in the world would use a similar set-up. I mean even most amateur recording set ups now have access to drum quantising. etc. Why not?

Funko
11-08-2005, 15:44:15
Originally posted by protein
Cider with lager, blackcurrent and a dab of whizz.

That could also be the definition of Metal (eg. The Rising Sun pub...)

protein
11-08-2005, 15:57:48
Originally posted by Funko
Their first album was recorded at a local San Fransisco studio, produced by the drummer and cost $400.

Now they've sold 20 million records and can use the best studios and techniques in the world.

I reckon most artists at that level using the best studios in the world would use a similar set-up. I mean even most amateur recording set ups now have access to drum quantising. etc. Why not?
I thought their first album was one they sold at gigs. Dookie was the one that broke them.

The point is that we were discussing the definition of punk and I gave one example of why Green Day aren't punk.

One could argue that these techniques aren't "the best" at all. You can overdo the editing, quantising and tuning until you are left with a song that is too clinical. I hate having to do things like that nowerdays. The only time I edit the hell out of something is if the band are so hopeless I have to or if there's been a major cock up on the recording side of things.

The muf recording is au natural. I think the only thing I did that you couldn't have done in 1970 was replace one missed snare hit.

I'd say that that is a better recording than the one I did the other day with a Green Day-esque christian "punk" band - which is pretty much my own pro tools editing composition using a only little bit of their input. The drums are fake, the singing is fake, the cymbals are fake, the guitar is a mish-mash of hundreds of different takes etc.

Leave the clinical stuff for computer based dance music I reckon.

Lazarus and the Gimp
11-08-2005, 15:59:24
Originally posted by Debaser

Punk as a genre was influenced by many things, for example the Beat literature from the early 50's, Dadist artists like Marcell Duchamp, painters like Jackson Pollock etc, but it's year zero has always been 1975,

Actually, if punk started in any year it was 1971. That's when Suicide started calling themselves "Punk", and the scene they were in (featuring Patti Smith, Robert Mapplethorpe etc) started coalescing.

1975 only applies as year zero from a jingoistically British viewpoint.

Funko
11-08-2005, 16:09:08
They had two albums before dookie, both produced in the same studio very cheaply by the drummer, Kerplunk (the second one) sold 50,000 copies on the indy label which is what got them signed to a major label. Now, both those first two albums have sold millions.

Dookie wasn't recorded using all that modern shit either, and as I've not really liked much they've done since so how it was produced is pretty much irrelevant.

You seem to be looking at them in their current state as one of the biggest bands in the world and assuming they were always like that.

Basically they are the textbook case of how you can start small, gig your arse off, get a small label to release your stuff and become a huge global phenomenon.

I don't really have any problem with you not liking their music, and if you don't want to call them 'punk' that's fine. Genre names are bullshit, but that's what genre they are widely considered to be in by the press etc.

And I think it's totally fair for you to think that they should produce their music more naturally.

That said, your impression of them is totally wrong. They aren't "jocks" they aren't "clean living" and when they started off their kind of music wasn't comercial at all etc.

I mean "Green Day" is California slang for a day that's totally wasted getting stoned.

If you were talking about Blink 182 or someone - fair enough.

protein
11-08-2005, 16:17:17
History aside, I can't see any difference between them and Blink 182. Sorry about that.

When they broke, they were the most commercial thing in the "alternative" scene. The American grunge scene was HUGE, there were punky alternative bands in the uk, there was metal etc. and then a nice girly pop chart friendly version of grunge came along in the form of Green Day. It was music for little sisters. I had and still have no idea why this clean music was called "punk". It should have been called "accessible teen guitar pop"

Funko
11-08-2005, 16:19:21
:hmm:

Their fan base was overwhelmingly male.

And it was/is called "pop punk"... punk 'cause of the simple 3 chord style, from bands like the Ramones, pop 'cause of the accessibility and hooks.

Nills Lagerbaak
11-08-2005, 16:21:08
Which is why it was called Punk-pop. Popular punk, call it what you will, it was certainly dilluted and more accessible, hence the name.

protein
11-08-2005, 16:24:38
pop and punk are two worlds that are incompatible. it's like "drunken athletics" or "polite swearing".

Funko
11-08-2005, 16:26:44
I've done drunken athletics and


"You bloody bastard"

Nills Lagerbaak
11-08-2005, 16:28:16
Anything is compatible. You need a description for a punk influenced band who "dilluted" their sound, created something new and became popular.

I like the way you didn't mentioned "Drunken Boxing" as an example ;) To the untrained ear, that smacks of incompatability

Funko
11-08-2005, 16:30:50
Anyway, regardless of what it's called, some people like it, some don't.

I like some Green Day and not much else in the genre, but then I like some bands in most genres.

protein
11-08-2005, 16:35:15
I hold them personally responsible for all the "pop punk" bands I have to record. All these bands that don't seem to want to rock, do anything challenging or do anything outside of the genre. They make me WANT TO SCREAM SOMETIMES!

protein
11-08-2005, 16:36:39
I hope you all realise I've been mixing a "pop punk" EP all day.

That might have contributed to some of my less consiliatory outbursts.

Funko
11-08-2005, 16:37:57
Originally posted by protein
I hold them personally responsible for all the "pop punk" bands I have to record. All these bands that don't seem to want to rock, do anything challenging or do anything outside of the genre. They make me WANT TO SCREAM SOMETIMES!

I bet you get the same with metal bands too. :)

Nills Lagerbaak
11-08-2005, 16:40:45
Hmm, I was trying to draw a comparison with metal, but I think by metal you just can't make "pop-metal". Even nu-metal isn't "pop metal"


I guess people thought the same about punk, so maybe pop-metal is where the future is.

protein
11-08-2005, 16:42:41
http://www.loudmedicine.net/be/ugh.mp3

Debaser
11-08-2005, 16:43:39
You can't make pop-metal because metal in inherently childish to begin with.

protein
11-08-2005, 16:44:01
Originally posted by Funko
I bet you get the same with metal bands too. :)
I have no problem with metal bands. I've only recorded one though. All the rest are pop punk/nu metal.

Funko
11-08-2005, 16:44:58
Well I guess that explains why Green Day won Kerrang's best gig thing then. :)

Nills Lagerbaak
11-08-2005, 16:47:08
Originally posted by Debaser
You can't make pop-metal because metal in inherently childish to begin with.

foolish. As if something being childish made it accessible! Evil Dead 3 - Army of darkness is childish but I wouldn't call it pop-horror.


Protein, excellent example of pop punk, excellent name. Ugh!

protein
11-08-2005, 16:47:13
Originally posted by protein
http://www.loudmedicine.net/be/ugh.mp3
these guys are quite young though. I'll forgive them for their crapness. I won't forgive them for being the most obnoxious, irritating little noisy motherfuckers I've ever, ever met though.

These are the guys that made me have to write that crappy "how to record a demo" thing. They even read it and completely ignored all the advice like "be quiet" "rehearse the songs" "be polite" "don't invite friends to watch" "don't touch" "don't leave a mess" etc.

Debaser
11-08-2005, 16:49:23
Haha, see I'd say Evil Dead 3 is one of the least horrific horror films I've ever seen. It's also very funny, thus making it a prime candidate for this new pop-horror genre...

protein
11-08-2005, 16:49:59
I'll agree with that. Like Scary Movie.

Funko
11-08-2005, 16:50:07
Wow, you have American bands in...

Funko
11-08-2005, 16:50:38
I would also agree with that.

I don't like scary films but Evil Dead 3 is great.

protein
11-08-2005, 16:50:42
Oh my god. What a perfect comparison. Green Day is to punk what Scary Movie is to horror.

Debaser
11-08-2005, 16:50:44
Originally posted by protein
these guys are quite young though. I'll forgive them for their crapness. I won't forgive them for being the most obnoxious, irritating little noisy motherfuckers I've ever, ever met though.

These are the guys that made me have to write that crappy "how to record a demo" thing. They even read it and completely ignored all the advice like "be quiet" "rehearse the songs" "be polite" "don't invite friends to watch" "don't touch" "don't leave a mess" etc.

What's their band called?

Nills Lagerbaak
11-08-2005, 16:51:34
Yes, probably right, but it's cult appeal will mean it'll never become "popular". If you could prove that it inspired people to make the chucky films, then we have a perfect Green day parallel.

protein
11-08-2005, 16:51:57
Originally posted by Funko
Wow, you have American bands in...
Oh yes, they are all American. I can count on one hand the bands that aren't American poppunkmetal.

protein
11-08-2005, 16:52:38
Originally posted by Debaser
What's their band called?
I can't say. You'll tell someone I slagged them off. Oh okay then. They are called Thirteen.

protein
11-08-2005, 16:53:07
They are christians.

Funko
11-08-2005, 16:54:00
You've made them sound very professional.

protein
11-08-2005, 16:55:13
The magic of Pro Tools.

Gramercy Riffs
11-08-2005, 16:57:49
Originally posted by Debaser
What's their band called?

The Palestinians

Mr. Bas
11-08-2005, 17:00:19
I heard they suck.

Gramercy Riffs
11-08-2005, 17:00:40
They REALLY suck

protein
11-08-2005, 17:01:46
The Palestinians are waaaaay more punk than green day and they don't even claim to be punk.

Nills Lagerbaak
11-08-2005, 17:05:11
Yeah, I'd say the Pale Skinny Ones are pretty punk.

Funko
11-08-2005, 17:05:53
Just because they can't play their instruments and their recording is primitive... ;) ;) :cute:

Debaser
11-08-2005, 17:07:13
Our drummer's an excellent musician!

Funko
11-08-2005, 17:07:38
Why is he playing drums then?

Nills Lagerbaak
11-08-2005, 17:08:24
Originally posted by Funko
Just because they can't play their instruments and their recording is primitive... ;) ;) :cute:

Yeah, sadly the cadged baby comparison cannot help but be made. Still the drummer can play in time!

Mr. Bas
11-08-2005, 17:09:00
Green Day is punk in the sense that their music is based on the simple three chord stuff bands like The Ramones used to make. It's not punk in the sense that it's uncompromising or anything, no.

So, how do you rate the punk coefficient of bands like NOFX, protein? Surely, musically they're not too far removed from Green Day.

Gramercy Riffs
11-08-2005, 17:10:04
I like Caged Baby.

Funko
11-08-2005, 17:10:26
I actually like The Palestinians, unfortunately they keep scheduling gigs on dates I can't make.

ps. Don't tell them that.

Funko
11-08-2005, 17:10:48
I liked Caged Baby, but their novelty wore off fast.

Debaser
11-08-2005, 17:11:47
Originally posted by protein
The Palestinians are waaaaay more punk than green day and they don't even claim to be punk.

Unfortunately we do:
http://www.myspace.com/thepalestinians

Nills Lagerbaak
11-08-2005, 17:12:41
Thankfully there is soooooooooooo much more to punk these days than the three chord nonsense (which is why I've gotten into it)

King prawn, Mr. Bungle, Rocket form the Crypt....etc. etc. are all excellent examples.

Though most people would say they are Ska-punk, thus suggesting perhaps it was the ska element that made them more "intelligent".

Damn, music surely has to be the most pointless thing to argue about.

Gramercy Riffs
11-08-2005, 17:13:00
"We" do?

Nills Lagerbaak
11-08-2005, 17:14:16
Originally posted by Gramercy Riffs
I like Caged Baby.

I like what they were trying to do, unfortunately they were crap. The human ear can only take so much decible exposure during a lifetime, and everytime I walked out of their gigs I wished I could have my half hour's allowance back.

Debaser
11-08-2005, 17:14:28
Er... yeah. It's on OUR band profile, therefore WE do. Fuck knows who wrote it though...

novacane
11-08-2005, 17:16:39
I read in the post that The Palestinians were also "hoping to hit the big time".

Does this mean that you are hoping to be the next Green Day?

Debaser
11-08-2005, 17:18:09
Nah, according to Claire we're the next Busted. Woo!

Gramercy Riffs
11-08-2005, 17:18:29
We dont want to be the next anything

We want to be the first Palestinians.

Gramercy Riffs
11-08-2005, 17:19:06
That was a delibrately OTT comedy "rock" quote by the way.

Nills Lagerbaak
11-08-2005, 17:19:08
My new band are gonna do for rock what scary movie did for punk-pop.

novacane
11-08-2005, 17:19:22
hate to break it to you mate, but.............

Debaser
11-08-2005, 17:19:58
Nothing?

Gramercy Riffs
11-08-2005, 17:21:20
Lets just all agree that DisGuys were the best band ever.Ok?

Nills Lagerbaak
11-08-2005, 17:21:27
Something that is beyond the comparion of your tiny monkey minds.

Nills Lagerbaak
11-08-2005, 17:23:44
Originally posted by Gramercy Riffs
Lets just all agree that DisGuys were the best band ever.Ok?

Fine by me.

Gramercy Riffs
11-08-2005, 17:25:18
They were great

Nills Lagerbaak
11-08-2005, 17:25:44
Nice red cross.

Nills Lagerbaak
11-08-2005, 17:26:14
Or is that supposed to be "They get my vote"?

Nills Lagerbaak
11-08-2005, 17:26:44
hmm, your red cross turned into words.

Gramercy Riffs
11-08-2005, 17:26:45
:hmm:


I meant this:

Eklektikos
11-08-2005, 17:35:55
Originally posted by Nills Lagerbaak
Thankfully there is soooooooooooo much more to punk these days than the three chord nonsense (which is why I've gotten into it)

King prawn, Mr. Bungle, Rocket form the Crypt....etc. etc. are all excellent examples.

Though most people would say they are Ska-punk, thus suggesting perhaps it was the ska element that made them more "intelligent".
I wouldn't call Mr Bungle either punk or ska punk. They've recorded a couple of songs that do arguably fit that profile to one degree or another, but that's about as far as it goes.

Funko
11-08-2005, 17:38:22
Originally posted by Gramercy Riffs
Lets just all agree that DisGuys were the best band ever.Ok?

Fair enough.

Nills Lagerbaak
12-08-2005, 09:11:11
Originally posted by Eklektikos
I wouldn't call Mr Bungle either punk or ska punk. They've recorded a couple of songs that do arguably fit that profile to one degree or another, but that's about as far as it goes.

Yes, the definition should porbably include + fucked up other shit.

The Norks
14-08-2005, 19:10:58
I agree with Protein. Punk has fuck all to do with studio produced music, clinical sterilised piercings and MAC eyeliner (and I'm not a fan of GD although I do like their latest stuff). Punk was about anti establishment, sticking dirty safety pins through your ears and using sugar solution to weld your hair into bizarre fashions. The Sex Pistols were utterly talentless and that was their appeal, as was the appeal of all punk bands. They were just kids screaming violently in mics and then spitting at their fans. The acid test of a punk band should be, can you release a record with lyrics like this:

She was a girl from Birmingham
She just had an abortion
She was a case of insanity
Her name was Pauline she lived in a tree
She was a no one who killed her baby
She sent her letters from the country
She was an animal
She was a bloody disgrace !

Body I'm not an animal !

Dragged on a table in a factory
Illegitimate place to be
In a packet in a lavatory
die little baby SCREAMING !

Body screamin fucking bloody mess
it's not an animal
it's an abortion

Body I'm not an animal
Mummy I'm not an abortion !

Throbbing squirm gurgling bloody mess
I'm not a discharge
I'm not a loss in protein
I'm not a throbbing squirm

Fuck this and fuck that
Fuck it all and fuck
the fucking brat
She don't wanna baby that looks like that
I don't wanna baby that looks like that
Body I'm not an animal
Body I'm not an abortion

I'm not an animal Mummy !


Green Day punk? No. The nearest thing you can compare imho was the early street days of rap.

Mr. Bas
14-08-2005, 19:40:03
I think nobody here claimed that Green Day is a true punk band. The question was whether they, like Busted, "chose to make that kind of music to cash in on the teenybopper market" and like Mike and others argued that's just not the case.

I also wouldn't say that the definition of punk was being talentless, but that's a whole other discussion. ;)

The Norks
14-08-2005, 20:11:19
I like Busted. They were what they were, and that was well played pop. They had some cool tunes and there it was.

*End Is Forever*
14-08-2005, 20:18:16
I can't believe I've missed this thread up until now.

The problem with calling something "anti-establishment" is that you need to define what the "establishment" is. Only a tiny minority of teens get so far-left that they get nose-rings and want to overthrow the government. For them, punk is what Sue describes above. For (most) others - and I'm not even talking about cosy middle-class kids here - rebellion doesn't get beyond the teen-angst of Dookie and suchlike. It's not the same, but that doesn't mean it isn't "punk".

Anyway, I've only flicked through this discussion, but I agree with (I think) Mike when he said that protein et al were judging Green Day by how they are now and not where they came from.

Green Day aren't following a trend. They created the trend with Dookie. In fact there are two albums that exploded pop-punk into the mainstream, and those are Dookie and Smash by the Offspring.

Those two bands were living in vans, playing smallish shows and selling records in volumes of four or five figures rather than seven figures.

As Mike says Green Day had sold maybe 50000 copies of Kerplunk on Lookout Records when they signed to Reprise. I'm not entirely sure why they signed to Reprise but it certainly wasn't to be launched as the next superstars - look how bargain-basement the video for Longview is. Yet it sold, and sold, and sold, because it was good, and because the kids liked it. There was no hype, and no marketing, it just kept selling.

The same with the Offspring. Smash was and still is the biggest-selling "independent" album of all time. No hype, no marketing, it just sold because the kids wanted to buy it.

If you don't like the genre, by all means say so. Don't dismiss one of the few bands who have actually sold millions upon millions of records out of the blue, and don't get all self-righteous about what isn't and isn't "punk".

The Norks
14-08-2005, 20:28:14
but punk is what it is, and its not green day. They may be punk influenced but I see more of U2 and similar in them than punk. Punk was a very specific moment in time, which once labelled, died.

Nills Lagerbaak
15-08-2005, 10:02:52
Right, having bee to see Chaos UK last night, I can safely say I know the definition of punk. Them.

Basically insane hair and piercings, growly west country shouting / singing, about farmers drunk on cider chasing blackbirds up trees. Mental.

Funko
15-08-2005, 10:10:28
Originally posted by The Norks
but punk is what it is, and its not green day. They may be punk influenced but I see more of U2 and similar in them than punk. Punk was a very specific moment in time, which once labelled, died.

It's just a media defined genre label. *shrug*

Eklektikos
15-08-2005, 12:50:21
Except that it doesn't quite work as a genre label since it doesn't really describe a particular sound.

I think it must be one of the worst excuses for a noun in recent history.

Debaser
15-08-2005, 17:30:14
Originally posted by The Norks
The Sex Pistols were utterly talentless and that was their appeal, as was the appeal of all punk bands.

I thought their appeal was that they were something fresh, new, and exciting, and they pissed a lot of people off. Kids dig that shit.

Utterly talentless? Well their album's still regarded as a classic over 25yrs after it came out, and loads of bands site them as an influence. That doesn't happen by accident.

protein
16-08-2005, 15:04:24
I found out that my eight year old neice likes Green Day today.

I think that says it all.

Funko
16-08-2005, 15:06:39
When I was 8 I really liked my Dad's 50s rock and roll, The Beatles and Simon and Garfunkle.

Just 'cause someone young likes it doesn't mean it's shit does it.

Japher
16-08-2005, 15:12:26
Most babies like classical music... what am I doing in this forum?!