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Nills Lagerbaak
02-08-2005, 15:52:01
Does anyone still think there is a difference between the US administration and the Nazi regime?


http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,12780,1540552,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,12780,1540558,00.html

Immortal Wombat
02-08-2005, 15:54:25
The Nazis had a two thirds majority.

Japher
02-08-2005, 15:56:37
Nazi's had better uniforms...

Funko
02-08-2005, 15:57:52
Yeah, it's been nice and lighthearted recently. Let's start a thread where people post really over the top inflamatory stuff and everyone gets pissed off that's just what we need.

:beer:

Nills Lagerbaak
02-08-2005, 15:58:18
Originally posted by Japher
Nazi's had better uniforms...

That much is certainly true.

Nills Lagerbaak
02-08-2005, 15:59:13
Originally posted by Funko
Yeah, it's been nice and lighthearted recently. Let's start a thread where people post really over the top inflamatory stuff and everyone gets pissed off that's just what we need.

:beer:

I don't think there's anything over the top about it, I think it's quite sick actually.

Funko
02-08-2005, 16:09:30
Talking about the specific issue is fine.

Comparing stuff to the Nazis is, first and foremost, a horrible cliche. So much so that there's even an internet concept that "whoever mentions compares anyone to the Nazis first in an argument automatically loses".

It's just totally inflammatory emotive cliche. And entirely spurious. Why pick the Nazis over every other regime accused of using torture and restricting human rights - which is almost all of them.

Plus you said "the US administration" when 99% of any similarities you might mention would apply equally to the UK...

There are some serious issues about Guantanemo but saying "they're nazis" isn't going to engage anyone in a debate about it it'll just piss people off, and quite rightly.

Venom
02-08-2005, 16:11:05
Yeah, and the guardian employees terrorists, so this is sure to be accurate. Nothing fishy about the articles at all.

Why is it you fucks only talk shit about the US instead of your racial profiling, CCTV having, terrorist raising, intolerant piece of shit society?

Lurker the Second
02-08-2005, 16:16:14
Cool new forum game! Let's see who can make the most idiotic post.

Nills Lagerbaak
02-08-2005, 16:16:57
I don't really care about internet conventions to be honest. Nazism is brought up time and time again to show how great the post world war 2 west is, so if people are (rightly?) allowed to do that, they must (rightly?) be able to use them as a counter argument.
You cannot use them as an example for, if you are unable to take critism against.

And yes, 99% probably does apply to the UK, happy to say that.

The Nazis were organised, scientific, deceptive, torturous and most importantly thought they were correct. I picked them because of certain similarities that are obvious to spot.

Venom
02-08-2005, 16:17:32
Also Nills, thanks for proving my point about you in the Norks breakup giant argument thread.

Funko
02-08-2005, 16:17:36
Originally posted by Venom
Yeah, and the guardian employees terrorists

So they are as credible as the CIA then...

Nills Lagerbaak
02-08-2005, 16:18:43
Originally posted by Venom
Also Nills, thanks for proving my point about you in the Norks breakup giant argument thread.

Give yourself a big pat on the back.

Funko
02-08-2005, 16:22:35
Originally posted by Nills Lagerbaak
I don't really care about internet conventions to be honest. Nazism is brought up time and time again to show how great the post world war 2 west is, so if people are (rightly?) allowed to do that, they must (rightly?) be able to use them as a counter argument.
You cannot use them as an example for, if you are unable to take critism against.

And yes, 99% probably does apply to the UK, happy to say that.

The Nazis were organised, scientific, deceptive, torturous and most importantly thought they were correct. I picked them because of certain similarities that are obvious to spot.

What about the differences though which are equally as obvious and loads more numerous?

You can compare anything to "the nazis" if you try hard enough it's just a lazy argument.

King_Ghidra
02-08-2005, 16:25:09
Originally posted by Venom
Why is it you fucks only talk shit about the US

i only see nils and oftentimes protein talking shit about the us, there are many other uk posters here who don't share or air their views, so no need for the siege mentality

Venom
02-08-2005, 16:26:56
Originally posted by Funko
So they are as credible as the CIA then...

CIA doesn't try to pass themselves off as a trusted news source to the public. Everyone knows the CIA are mean assholes.

Nills Lagerbaak
02-08-2005, 16:27:18
Of course there are differences, and I admit my original post was a little sensationalist.

It's just the bare faced hypocrasy of these people, some times Nazi seems the only word strong enough.

Funko
02-08-2005, 16:29:00
Politicians in hypocracy shocker.

Nills Lagerbaak
02-08-2005, 16:29:21
Originally posted by Venom
Also Nills, thanks for proving my point about you in the Norks breakup giant argument thread.

Oh, and you have also confirmed exactly what type of person I thought you are, so I'll give myself a pat on the back.

King_Ghidra
02-08-2005, 16:29:49
continued appropriation of the term nazi to mean bad thing is basically diminishing the evil of the nazis and the holocaust

Funko
02-08-2005, 16:30:55
Nills, Venom: Well you were both wrong. Which is why this kind of thread sucks.

If you met in a pub you'd both get on really well you just have different views on politics which is, basically, because you are the products of different political environments.

So can we go back to talking about hot-dogs and beer now?

King_Ghidra
02-08-2005, 16:31:19
just to clarify something for everyone, the word is hypocrisy

Funko
02-08-2005, 16:31:35
Originally posted by King_Ghidra
continued appropriation of the term nazi to mean bad thing is basically diminishing the evil of the nazis and the holocaust

Yeah... that too. Very good point.

Nills Lagerbaak
02-08-2005, 16:31:36
Originally posted by Funko
Politicians in hypocracy shocker.


Oh, this thread was really aimed at anyone who was under even the slightest dillusion that they are somehow fighting the "morally crusade".

Funko
02-08-2005, 16:32:40
Originally posted by King_Ghidra
just to clarify something for everyone, the word is hypocrisy

Thanks, I had no idea so I copied Nills. :)

King_Ghidra
02-08-2005, 16:32:58
nils are you under the illusion those people would see the light when they read this thread? who's deluded now?

Nills Lagerbaak
02-08-2005, 16:33:07
Originally posted by Nills Lagerbaak
Oh, this thread was really aimed at anyone who was under even the slightest dillusion that they are somehow fighting the "moral crusade".

Funko
02-08-2005, 16:33:38
Originally posted by King_Ghidra
nils are you under the illusion those people would see the light when they read this thread? who's deluded now?

:lol:

King_Ghidra
02-08-2005, 16:34:32
Originally posted by Funko
Thanks, I had no idea so I copied Nills. :)

and misspelt it in an entirely new way :lol:

Venom
02-08-2005, 16:36:31
I'd compare guantanamo to your measures of racial profiling on the subways and shooting brazillians.

Bad things will happen in this fight, but desperate measures must be taken to win.

Nills Lagerbaak
02-08-2005, 16:37:34
Whoops, that was supposed to be an edit.

Deluded? Arguing on the internet is a little like running in the special olympics......etc. etc.

Nills Lagerbaak
02-08-2005, 16:40:03
Originally posted by Venom
I'd compare guantanamo to your measures of racial profiling on the subways and shooting brazillians.

Bad things will happen in this fight, but desperate measures must be taken to win.


Listen to what you're saying?!?! You really do sound like a brainwashed moron (and I'm saying that in retalliantion to what you called me in the Norks thread)


I didn't like of the shooting of the Brazillian.

Desperate measures.....scarring a mans penis for life so that he'll never forget that America can tell him what to do?

Lurker the Second
02-08-2005, 16:49:35
Yeah, I'm sure that was a direct quote.

Drekkus
02-08-2005, 16:50:32
All americans cut their penis when they're young, heavens know why. It's just cultural assimilation.

Immortal Wombat
02-08-2005, 16:52:23
Originally posted by Funko
Yeah, it's been nice and lighthearted recently. Let's start a thread where people post really over the top inflamatory stuff and everyone gets pissed off that's just what we need.

:beer:

Oerdin
02-08-2005, 16:53:52
Originally posted by Venom
Yeah, and the guardian employees terrorists, so this is sure to be accurate. Nothing fishy about the articles at all.


The author in question was fired over a month ago while the article was written today.

King_Ghidra
02-08-2005, 16:54:21
Originally posted by Nills Lagerbaak
Deluded? Arguing on the internet is a little like running in the special olympics......etc. etc.

are you agreeing with me? what are you trying to say?

you started this thread

you claimed it was aimed at those people suffering under a 'dillusion'(sic)

and you are the one continuing to argue your point/thinly veiled attack

now unless the single aim of your thread was to piss people off then yes you are very deluded, because you seem to think you are having a sophisticated political discussion when actually at the very best it is a discussion of an alleged incident of brutality combined with a ludicrously inflammatory thread title

Drekkus
02-08-2005, 16:56:25
heaven knows.

Oh, and I think using the nazis as a comparison makes them (the nazis) just that, the ulitmate evil society. As long as people keep using that comparison, for whatever stupid meaning, the image of the evil nazis stays alive for future times.

Oerdin
02-08-2005, 16:57:58
Originally posted by Venom
CIA doesn't try to pass themselves off as a trusted news source to the public. Everyone knows the CIA are mean assholes.

Are you sure about that?

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Alhurra

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhurra

King_Ghidra
02-08-2005, 16:59:03
just like Zwarte Piet eh

Nills Lagerbaak
02-08-2005, 16:59:17
Yes I was agreeing with you.

Drekkus
02-08-2005, 17:09:38
Originally posted by King_Ghidra
just like Zwarte Piet eh :lol: What do you know about zwarte piet??

King_Ghidra
02-08-2005, 17:11:13
:D :cute:

Oerdin
02-08-2005, 17:12:02
So in Holland Santa Claus has a funnily dressed black servant?

Venom
02-08-2005, 17:13:32
Applying the actions some people in Guantanamo to the entire US administration and calling them Nazis is akin to declaring all Arabs terrorists.

Drekkus
02-08-2005, 17:16:53
Santa Claus is derived from Sinterklaas, but it's very different. But yes, Sinterklaas has funnily dressed black servants. Not that he's a fashion victim himself.

Can't believe we're talking december holiday gift season early august. :D

Venom
02-08-2005, 17:17:25
The author in question was fired over a month ago while the article was written today.

They've still made themselves to appear, at best, biased, at worst, terrorist sympathizers.

Originally posted by Oerdin
Are you sure about that?

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Alhurra

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhurra

Show me where it says the CIA controls them. I couldn't find that in those links. All I see is that Congress funds them. Congress always tries to pass themselves off as a legitimate body. Not many people buy it.

The Norks
02-08-2005, 20:09:26
so rather than have a debate about the actual issue, everyone is once again having the 'my country is better than yours' argument coupled with A-level sociology 'define your terms' tangent? Why does this happen every time anything political is mentioned? Can't we all just accept that we all have qualms about certain aspects of each other's politics and leave it at that?

Venom
02-08-2005, 20:13:55
I think in this case the actual thread starter made it political. It appears as though he had no intention of even discussing the "issue". He just wanted to make an attack. I don't see any politics in this accusation. He's made an allegation of abuse. It should be investigated and appropriate action be taken based on the findings.

The Norks
02-08-2005, 20:15:08
yes thats a fair point

but we do seem to have this euro/brit/america debate every time anyone posts anything like this, inflammatory or not

fp
02-08-2005, 20:16:58
That's just because we all suck. I wonder if there's a country somewhere that isn't mostly populated by total arseholes....

DaShi
02-08-2005, 20:18:25
That would be boring.

Immortal Wombat
02-08-2005, 20:21:27
Originally posted by fp
That's just because we all suck. I wonder if there's a country somewhere that isn't mostly populated by total arseholes....
New Zealand. That's populated by sheep arseholes.

fp
02-08-2005, 20:24:36
Fuck them.

protein
02-08-2005, 20:26:18
Originally posted by Venom
Applying the actions some people in Guantanamo to the entire US administration and calling them Nazis is akin to declaring all Arabs terrorists.
Like saying "all nazis killed jews".

fp
02-08-2005, 20:27:21
Which is also untrue.

MOBIUS
02-08-2005, 20:33:25
Originally posted by Immortal Wombat
New Zealand. That's populated by sheep arseholes.

Actually the politicians there are arseholes too...:gasmaske:

protein
02-08-2005, 20:35:42
Originally posted by fp
Which is also untrue.
Exactly.

protein
02-08-2005, 20:37:15
They allowed an environment where that could happen although they were people doing what they thought was right and for the greater good.

Venom
02-08-2005, 20:42:51
Can't people do whatever they want in just about any environment? Couldn't I gun down my entire office? Is that the governments fault? Is it the governments fault if a postal worker lives up to his name and goes postal?

Japher
02-08-2005, 20:45:30
Don't be silly Venom, ppl in communist societies aren't free to do anything. They can't even own a gun!

Venom
02-08-2005, 20:47:49
I suppose you're right. I'm lucky the government bathroom agents allow me to take a piss once a day.

Japher
02-08-2005, 20:50:27
damn skippy!

Venom
02-08-2005, 20:52:57
Sometimes they even let me unbutton my pants before hand, too.

Chris
02-08-2005, 21:08:42
A better question is why some Euros take everything some goober claims as absolute truth, and run off half cocked as moral crusaders, without even making an attempt to find out who the accuser is, and what the chances are he is full of shit.

That sounds more like Nazism, find some claim you agree with politicaly, and crusade for it, without caring if its true or not, it was actually Hitler's favorite tactic.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
03-08-2005, 09:11:52
Originally posted by Oerdin
Are you sure about that?

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Alhurra

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alhurra

"accurate and balanced" :lol:

Fox subsidiary, I presume.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
03-08-2005, 09:13:53
Originally posted by Chris
A better question is why some Euros take everything some goober claims as absolute truth, and run off half cocked as moral crusaders, without even making an attempt to find out who the accuser is, and what the chances are he is full of shit.

That sounds more like Nazism, find some claim you agree with politicaly, and crusade for it, without caring if its true or not, it was actually Hitler's favorite tactic.

* FAAAAARRRTTT *

Nills Lagerbaak
03-08-2005, 09:45:06
Originally posted by Venom
I think in this case the actual thread starter made it political. It appears as though he had no intention of even discussing the "issue". He just wanted to make an attack. I don't see any politics in this accusation. He's made an allegation of abuse. It should be investigated and appropriate action be taken based on the findings.

Of course it was a political remark as that is what is going on in the world right now, but you immediately put the shutters up with the whole "Well your country sucks more" shit.
What you don't realise is that I am not impressed by that, I don't care whose country is better than whose, and that sort of (Typical from you and certain others) response puts me off discussing it any more, so please don't accuse me of being stubborn / egotystical.

Funko
03-08-2005, 09:46:29
I think you missed his point.

He was just retaliating to your "the US government are Nazis" comment with what he saw as an equivalent statement.

Funko
03-08-2005, 09:47:01
It's Venom's way of showing how dumb he thought it was. :)

Nills Lagerbaak
03-08-2005, 09:51:28
I initially thought Venom was a bit of a joke "uberviolent" internet character, but unless his "bad things must be done to win this war" comment was a joke, he really is a fucking moronic twat.

But to be fair I couldn't give a flying one either way. There's the story, make your own mind up. I appologise for linking to it with "reporter's bias" ;)

maroule
03-08-2005, 10:04:56
What happened to Venom while I was gone? Is he sedated? Where is the pulsating anger and energy?

Dyl Ulenspiegel
03-08-2005, 10:05:58
He's collapsing under his own gravity.

Funko
03-08-2005, 10:12:51
Originally posted by The Norks
yes thats a fair point

but we do seem to have this euro/brit/america debate every time anyone posts anything like this, inflammatory or not

I think there are a few different things that cause it:

1. US and UK/European political outlooks are fundamentally different. Things that we consider mainstream center politics are quite extreme there and vice versa. So people make statements that'd be fairly mild in their own country but quite shocking in a different context.

2. There's the "it's ok for me to take the piss out of/criticize my family but that's because they're my family if you do it I'm going to be offended" factor. You'll find that many Americans who post here are just as critical of their government as we are and very often better informed.

3. We Europeans tend to have a bit of a patronising "know it all" attitude in these 'debates'. We don't always do it deliberately but we (and I know I do it...) do tend to approach things with an attitude of "we are right and you stupid Americans don't agree because you are ignorant/brainwashed".

4. There's too much generalisation and stereotyping on and by both sides. People assume what the other side is going to think based on what they think they think they know about them not what they actually believe.

5. We don't realise it probably but where we Europeans think we are just talking about current affairs but to some of the American posters it's like a constant hammering of them personally. We Euros think the Americans shouldn't be so sensitive because we're just criticising their government, but we do it with an underlying sense of "your government, who you idiots voted for"

6. If America does anything "wrong" they get tons of abuse for it . Way more than any other country in the world. There's a problem because America is such a huge power what happens to it affects the whole world but, say, America executes a murderer it'll get much more coverage than some 3rd world dictator executing 100 which obviously seems a bit unfair if you are American.

And the ridiculous accusations and generalisations like "Bush is a Nazi" or "Christians are morons" don't help either.

Funko
03-08-2005, 10:17:31
Originally posted by Nills Lagerbaak
I initially thought Venom was a bit of a joke "uberviolent" internet character, but unless his "bad things must be done to win this war" comment was a joke, he really is a fucking moronic twat.

No, he's just got a different point of view to you. The Brazillian guy is a great example of a tough choice. If he was a bomber, how else do you stop him blowing himself up? I can't think of one.

Yes, we need to address the causes of terrorism not just stop the terrorists but there'll always be fanatics out there. The idea that you can stop all world terrorism without making some very tough decisions and, probably, doing some things that involve some very difficult moral choices is, I think, fucking moronic. And that's all he was saying.

The problem is not that you disagree, I generally agree with you more than Venom but he and I can debate these issues properly. The main difference to the threads here is that we respect each others right to a different opinion even if we don't agree with it.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
03-08-2005, 10:18:46
7. Funko sucks greased speep arse

Tizzy
03-08-2005, 10:23:27
What's a speep?

Funko
03-08-2005, 10:23:57
Anyway all this is why we tend to steer clear of politics. Causes ructions way out of proportion to the actual differences of opinion.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
03-08-2005, 10:36:26
Originally posted by Tizzy
What's a speep?

salted and peppered sheep

Nills Lagerbaak
03-08-2005, 10:36:29
Originally posted by Funko
No, he's just got a different point of view to you. The Brazillian guy is a great example of a tough choice. If he was a bomber, how else do you stop him blowing himself up? I can't think of one.

Yes, we need to address the causes of terrorism not just stop the terrorists but there'll always be fanatics out there. The idea that you can stop all world terrorism without making some very tough decisions and, probably, doing some things that involve some very difficult moral choices is, I think, fucking moronic. And that's all he was saying.

The problem is not that you disagree, I generally agree with you more than Venom but he and I can debate these issues properly. The main difference to the threads here is that we respect each others right to a different opinion even if we don't agree with it.


Yes, arguing with someone like Venom sometimes makes me understand "we shall never enter into a diallogue with terrorists" mentality. Not that I agree with that, so if I was more interested in people like him I should make more effort to debate.

And as for your reporting thing, that's absolute bull, a foreign dictator kills a certain number. That is reported to the full when it helps to build support for action. However civilians casualties aren't even officially counted in Iraq and Afganistan.
I'll admit, bias like that makes me want to react in a more sensationalist way than I would notmally.

Funko
03-08-2005, 10:38:40
Not negotiating with terrorists means not caving to their threats - because it tells other groups that the way to get what they want is to blow you up.

Take Northern Ireland, our approach to the IRA has been, you stop using force and we'll talk to you 'cause that's the way to make progress.

Tizzy
03-08-2005, 10:42:07
Originally posted by Dyl Ulenspiegel
salted and peppered sheep

Mmm, tasty

Nills Lagerbaak
03-08-2005, 10:47:14
Originally posted by Funko
Not negotiating with terrorists means not caving to their threats - because it tells other groups that the way to get what they want is to blow you up.

Take Northern Ireland, our approach to the IRA has been, you stop using force and we'll talk to you 'cause that's the way to make progress.

No, not negotiating with terrorists means not talking to them. That statement has been said thousands of times.

Funko
03-08-2005, 11:01:06
I could just say, No, it means what I said again and again but that'd be pointless. *shrug*

Nills Lagerbaak
03-08-2005, 11:13:20
Negotiating = talking

Caving in = caving in.

Funko
03-08-2005, 11:25:39
Ok, well what they mean is "not caving in".

Resource Consumer
03-08-2005, 11:30:31
Just as I return, I find this piece of shit thread :D :D :D

Funko
03-08-2005, 11:30:54
It's all your fault.

Resource Consumer
03-08-2005, 11:41:39
Just call me Dave, HAL.

Funko
03-08-2005, 11:45:24
OK Dave-Hal.

Resource Consumer
03-08-2005, 11:46:49
No sense of punctuation.

Venom
03-08-2005, 13:16:35
Nills you're not interesting in debating with anyone. You're only interested in telling everyone how wrong and stupid they are if they don't agree with you. That's all you've done here. I was simply trying to point out some of your (check for KG's post) hypocrisy. Why is it you're so open minded to terrorists yet not America?

Nills Lagerbaak
03-08-2005, 13:25:35
I'm not open minded about anyone really, to me there is no difference, but all I get is everyday is "attacks against our values this and anti-democracy that". As I live in the same regime as you, I think it's worth pointing out every now and again when "our values" possibly aren't what we think they are.

Funko
03-08-2005, 13:28:06
Er. you don't live in the same regime as him.

fp
03-08-2005, 13:37:27
One lives under a regime, not in it.
[/editorial]

Funko
03-08-2005, 13:38:24
I live in a house.

Funko
03-08-2005, 13:38:46
Well a flat.

Resource Consumer
03-08-2005, 13:42:41
I live in Chiswick

Tizzy
03-08-2005, 13:43:50
I live in the interweb

Funko
03-08-2005, 13:44:12
On the interweb?

Tizzy
03-08-2005, 13:45:13
And I wish I lived somewhere where typos didn't happen.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
03-08-2005, 13:56:35
Originally posted by Tizzy
I live in the interweb

Did you meet funko there?

Venom
03-08-2005, 14:09:49
We met on the internet. :lol:

Tizzy
03-08-2005, 14:13:06
I met Funko a long time ago in a coffee shop far far away :D

Lurker the Second
03-08-2005, 15:04:12
Now that's a coffee shop that should be blown up.

Drekkus
03-08-2005, 15:37:04
Originally posted by Tizzy
I met Funko a long time ago in a coffee shop far far away :D You mean the faraway coffeeshop, where funko is a big?

Funko
03-08-2005, 15:37:19
Huh?

Tizzy
03-08-2005, 15:38:56
I can just about cope with Venglish, but I'll never understand Drekkish.

Japher
03-08-2005, 15:39:44
Drekkus:

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/negative19.jpg

:p

Funko
03-08-2005, 15:40:10
LEFT HANDED MOUSE ALERT!
LEFT HANDED MOUSE ALERT!
LEFT HANDED MOUSE ALERT!

Drekkus
03-08-2005, 15:49:10
Originally posted by Funko
Huh? :rolleyes:

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1281/724/1600/sw09wh1.jpg

Tizzy's own thread no less.

http://www.counterglow.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30033

Funko
03-08-2005, 15:50:24
Where funko is a big what?

Drekkus
03-08-2005, 15:52:41
Yes.

Tizzy
03-08-2005, 15:53:06
:clueless:

Drekkus
03-08-2005, 15:57:08
Originally posted by Funko
Where funko is a big what? Smelly boy.

If you two can't even remember Tizzy's thread, I must declare myself grotesquely more humourous than all of you.

Funko
03-08-2005, 15:57:47
Whatever!

Drekkus
03-08-2005, 16:00:01
And you're ugly!!!!

HA, I cirumvented the whatever here by seperating the grotesquely and ugly arguments. In a pinchermovement, the ugly caught funko from behind!!

Japher
03-08-2005, 16:00:39
grotesquely more humourous

kind of like the elephant man.

The Norks
03-08-2005, 16:04:29
why dont we just open two new threads:

a) Kvetch and bitch- for your international and political needs
B) Funko explains it all- eponymous advice from the voice of reason himself ;)

then we need never have this debate again

I blame the Yanks :)

Funko
03-08-2005, 16:06:07
Those fucking Nazis.

Drekkus
03-08-2005, 16:07:13
Epony Mouse will be the latin american mouse that rides a pony! And fight injustice wherever he finds it!!

Funko
03-08-2005, 16:07:56
E-Pony Mouse the drug smuggler.

Venom
03-08-2005, 16:08:01
Now would be the point where I should completely miss the joke and fly off the handle thereby reigniting the argument. Let's fast forward past that part.

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Bitches.

Funko
03-08-2005, 16:09:08
Hmm. Good point Venom.

Venom
03-08-2005, 16:10:05
Whatever.

Venom
03-08-2005, 16:10:26
I win!

Japher
03-08-2005, 16:10:41
Ricky Lake comeback of the day...

Funko
03-08-2005, 16:11:15
Originally posted by Venom
I win!

Do I look bothered?

Venom
03-08-2005, 16:14:23
You look grotesque, ugly, and freakish.

I win again!

Funko
03-08-2005, 16:15:04
I've got a girlfriend.

Venom
03-08-2005, 16:17:09
I lose. Again.

But I do have a girl's phone number! That's pretty close.

Funko
03-08-2005, 16:23:36
I bet it's one of those trick phone lines.

Venom
03-08-2005, 16:25:03
That'll be awesome. I'll find out soon enough, though.

Chris
03-08-2005, 20:42:18
Originally posted by Venom

But I do have a girl's phone number! That's pretty close. I just look at my watch for the correct time.

Asher
03-08-2005, 21:38:11
I say this as a third party:

Why the hell a Brit think he has any right to compare other countries to the Nazi regime? At least the US doesn't have a "stealth curfew" for teenagers.

Funko
03-08-2005, 21:38:59
A what?

protein
03-08-2005, 21:42:33
Stealth curfew?

Venom
03-08-2005, 21:47:24
Must be a new technology.

Funko
03-08-2005, 21:47:47
Sounds awesome.

Asher
03-08-2005, 21:48:58
A thing to kill all of the kids wearing hoodies.

Funko
03-08-2005, 21:50:48
Where abouts? Not heard about that. Link please.

Funko
03-08-2005, 21:53:04
Oh is it this ASBO thing?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4700581.stm

That is shit, yes but according to that the courts don't like it. Which is good.

Venom
03-08-2005, 21:58:01
Here' something I've always wondered. Why do you guys have a city wide CCTV system, yet hate the idea of ID cards?

Funko
03-08-2005, 22:17:44
Who says we like the idea of CCTV systems?

Venom
03-08-2005, 22:25:14
Well obviously you didn't fight the idea hard enough then. But aren't they very much the same thing? How much would ID cards "hurt" if you're already livining in video tapped society?

Funko
03-08-2005, 22:37:44
Not everyone hates the idea of either, and for that reason we're going to end up with ID cards too. :)

Fistandantilus
03-08-2005, 22:53:07
In short you absolutely don't know what you want and always end up disappointed. That's true democracy!

Venom
04-08-2005, 04:35:52
I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything. I'm just asking.

fp
04-08-2005, 06:55:15
I like CCTV systems and am neutral on ID cards. It's not like they're exactly the same thing, after all.

OldWarrior_42
04-08-2005, 08:32:38
Wow.... I haven't missed nuthin'. :-P~~

I like baseball cards.

OldWarrior_42
04-08-2005, 08:35:18
I don't guess I'll bother to read the other threads to catch up.

Cya. again.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
04-08-2005, 08:38:53
Originally posted by Asher

"stealth curfew" for teenagers.

Stealth curfew is the new chastity belt.

Funko
04-08-2005, 09:15:56
Originally posted by Venom
I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything. I'm just asking.

Yeah, I know. I typed out a few real responses but it was late and I was rambling and I just "thought blah".

Conveniently, and proving that laziness always wins, there was this story (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4744153.stm) this morning which addresses much of my problem with ID cards.

And CCTV cameras I am dubious about in general but they do seem to work in both crime prevention and detection.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
04-08-2005, 09:24:51
Originally posted by Venom
Here' something I've always wondered. Why do you guys have a city wide CCTV system, yet hate the idea of ID cards?

Mostly about traditions, I suppose. Here we have had (although not mandatory) ID cards for about 200 years, and people get nervous when we get two surveillance cams in a city of 200.000.

Funko
04-08-2005, 09:25:54
My main objection to the ID card really is that it's a tremendous waste of money.

Drekkus
04-08-2005, 09:56:47
For who?

Drekkus
04-08-2005, 09:58:06
Originally posted by OldWarrior_42
I don't guess I'll bother to read the other threads to catch up.

Cya. again. Good for you picking this thread as a representation for the other threads here.

fp
04-08-2005, 09:58:46
Taxpayers.

fp
04-08-2005, 09:59:15
x-post

Drekkus
04-08-2005, 10:01:43
You don't pay for your own ID card?

Funko
04-08-2005, 10:01:51
Yeah, taxpayers.

Funko
04-08-2005, 10:02:25
Originally posted by Drekkus
You don't pay for your own ID card?

Yeah, but if everyone has to have one (eventually) and the cost is estimated to be around 100 each...

Drekkus
04-08-2005, 10:06:17
Really? We have a mandatory identification obligation since january first. You can use your drivers license or passport, but you can also buy a ID card for 35 euro.

Funko
04-08-2005, 10:09:14
Shit. Having to carry ID is a bad thing isn't it?

For the moment our ID thing won't be mandatory but our proposed ID cards have biometric stuff on them, eye prints, fingerprints, DNA. The data storage issues and costs alone are enormous.

Does that mean if we're in Dutchland we need to carry ID with us?

Drekkus
04-08-2005, 10:18:27
Officially yes. But i usually haven't. Police don't randomly stop people to check. Only if you're in violation, you get asked to ID yourself. I don't mind too much, don't see the fuss about identification.

Funko
04-08-2005, 10:19:16
Would you like it if they made you buy an ID card for 100 when you already had a photo driving licence and passport?

Drekkus
04-08-2005, 10:23:36
No.

Drekkus
04-08-2005, 10:30:02
If a passport is good enough to get you into the US, it should be good enough for the police to check who you are.

Oerdin
04-08-2005, 13:30:26
Originally posted by Nills Lagerbaak
No, not negotiating with terrorists means not talking to them. That statement has been said thousands of times.

My experience is that Funko is right in this case. Negotiating means while they have hostages hashing out a deal; i.e. I'll pay you X if you let the hostages go. If there are no hostages and they want to talk then fine but it is unwise to do it at the point of a gun.

Oerdin
04-08-2005, 13:45:52
Originally posted by Funko
Yeah, but if everyone has to have one (eventually) and the cost is estimated to be around 100 each...

That's the stupid part. Requiring an ID is fine but charging everyone $180 for one goes way beyond anything reasonable. They can't cost more then $5 to make so the other $175 is just outragous.

Funko
04-08-2005, 13:46:45
It's the IT costs. Massive databases with really tight security, thousands of users etc. to keep all the biometrics.

Funko
04-08-2005, 13:47:17
Plus all the actual equipments for recording peoples biometric data, admin costs etc.

Oerdin
04-08-2005, 13:52:03
An ID with biometrics would help catch illegal aliens. The government should absorb nearly all the costs of this program though and not charge citizens a usurious price. Of course people are against it when the governemtn is trying to charge people that amount of money for a plastic card.

The army has similiar cards with biometrics and I know it doesn't cost that much.

*End Is Forever*
04-08-2005, 13:53:15
Erm, where do you think the Government gets money from? It is a loathsome scheme whether or not the Government gets money for it from us directly, or indirectly.

Japher
04-08-2005, 13:54:05
uh, the government can make money... duh

Oerdin
04-08-2005, 13:55:17
From taxpayers. They should cut some worthless government program or farm subsidy and instead pay for the data base with that money. If costs are $180 per card then you have an extremely inefficient system. It should be $25 tops.

Lurker the Second
04-08-2005, 13:56:01
Are those ID cards aimed primarily towards "national security" or identity theft/credit card fraud-type stuff? I know there's always some element of national security either way, but over here there's been a real push for more secure, less reproducable identification using drivers licenses. The new one I just got is pretty amazing. Didn't cost $180, though, that's for sure.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
04-08-2005, 14:13:33
And so nice you share your picture with us.

fp
04-08-2005, 15:38:31
Originally posted by Lurker the Second
Are those ID cards aimed primarily towards "national security" or identity theft/credit card fraud-type stuff?

Neither. The government have already admitted that they won't significantly help prevent either. Sadly, I'm not even joking.

Oerdin
04-08-2005, 16:06:00
An ID card which is more difficult to fake would help to track down people the government knows has terrorist connections though it won't do much for things out of the blue like the London bombings. It would also help to catch illegal akiens and make identity theft a bit more difficult.

I'm not sure that's worth $180 from every person in the UK though.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
04-08-2005, 16:09:40
If you have mandatory ID cards, the terrorists will just adapt. The german law was quite ineffective against the RAF, for example. You can only track people if their name shows up somewhere.

As for illegal aliens.... well, we may have about 100k to 300k for a population of about 8 million, despite (non mandatory) id cards and mandatory identification for non-EU foreigners.

Funko
04-08-2005, 16:10:25
It only helps track people down if they are forced to show it at checkpoints all over the place.

Oerdin
04-08-2005, 16:13:04
Or when they get things like jobs, or when they get pulled over for a speeding ticket, or when they get on an airplane, or possibly when they buy a train tickets, etc...

There are a great many ways to intigrate this if you're creative about it. The key is to make it hard to fake.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
04-08-2005, 16:14:35
"Or when they get things like jobs"

Submarine.

"or when they get pulled over for a speeding ticket"

They do not tend to violate any petty laws.

"or when they get on an airplane, or possibly when they buy a train tickets"

Drive by car.

Funko
04-08-2005, 16:15:13
People already have to show ID (eg passport) when they get a new job here apparently.

Funko
04-08-2005, 16:15:38
You can't ID people buying train tickets, it's impractical. The tube alone has 3 million journeys a day.

Oerdin
04-08-2005, 16:27:24
Originally posted by Dyl Ulenspiegel
"Or when they get things like jobs"

Submarine.

"or when they get pulled over for a speeding ticket"

They do not tend to violate any petty laws.

"or when they get on an airplane, or possibly when they buy a train tickets"

Drive by car.

I'm not saying it will instantly solve all problems but the harder they make it for law breakers the more trouble they'll have to go to and the more likely they'll screw up.

Then there are the other things I mentioned earlier about making identity theft more difficult and making it easier to catch other law breakers like illegal aliens. The idea is a good one but the government is trying to shaft people on the prices. If Blair believes in it then he should come up with the cash and not try to force pensioners and school kids to come up with $180.

Oerdin
04-08-2005, 16:28:39
Originally posted by Funko
You can't ID people buying train tickets, it's impractical. The tube alone has 3 million journeys a day.

It's required in the US for AMTRAK though that's long distance train travel and not local city trains. When you buy your ticket you show your ID.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
04-08-2005, 16:38:19
Originally posted by Oerdin
When you buy your ticket you show your ID.

Weird.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
04-08-2005, 16:39:48
Originally posted by Oerdin

Then there are the other things I mentioned earlier about making identity theft more difficult

Hmmm... in anglosaxon countries that lack a clear system of registers (birth, voting, residence etc), it would still be fairly easy to get an official ID card on faked materials, would it not?

Funko
04-08-2005, 16:41:12
Originally posted by Oerdin
It's required in the US for AMTRAK though that's long distance train travel and not local city trains. When you buy your ticket you show your ID.

Really?

fp
04-08-2005, 17:07:21
Originally posted by Funko
People already have to show ID (eg passport) when they get a new job here apparently.

That's true. I had bring in my passport so they could see it, and give HR a photocopy, when I started working here last year.

The Norks
04-08-2005, 17:15:42
nothing wrong with CCTV, it isnt being abused here

Oerdin
04-08-2005, 17:17:53
Originally posted by Dyl Ulenspiegel
Hmmm... in anglosaxon countries that lack a clear system of registers (birth, voting, residence etc), it would still be fairly easy to get an official ID card on faked materials, would it not?

It's been done before but I think we could improve the system if we tried.

King_Ghidra
04-08-2005, 17:20:38
it's easy to understand the amtrak story, after all, in the US you would be crossing federal lines on a such a journey, much like a border crossing in europe

OldWarrior_42
05-08-2005, 05:32:13
Good for you picking this thread as a representation for the other threads here.

Like I don't know what goes on here for the last 5, 6 or 7 years from owo to here.

It was my way of being sarcastic and an ass. Good of you to pick up on it. You think you would know me better by now.

Nyah, Nyah. PFFFFFFFFFFFFt. :p

Mightytree
05-08-2005, 08:13:48
Bastard.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
05-08-2005, 08:51:00
"Sucking bastard", you mean.

Funko
05-08-2005, 09:26:13
Originally posted by King_Ghidra
it's easy to understand the amtrak story, after all, in the US you would be crossing federal lines on a such a journey, much like a border crossing in europe

Which you, theoretically at least, don't have to show ID for anymore. :)