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View Full Version : Time once again to help Venom with science of the natural world


Venom
19-07-2005, 20:16:14
Is it possible to magnetize two pieces of metal by rubbing them together?

paiktis22
19-07-2005, 20:17:08
Maybe.

Venom
19-07-2005, 20:18:56
By hand?

Venom
19-07-2005, 20:56:23
So everyone is as stupid as me? I fart in your general direction.

Vincent
19-07-2005, 21:10:41
Yes, but it will take an infinite amount of time

zmama
19-07-2005, 21:20:40
Only if a room of monkeys does it

The Norks
19-07-2005, 22:05:41
doesnt it depend on what type of metal it is? No one has ever successfully explained magnets to me though so I have no clue.

Beta1
19-07-2005, 22:06:52
yes it is, but only if one is already a magnet and the other is iron.

At least I think thats right - its on my list of stuff to revise before starting my teaching course.

Venom
19-07-2005, 22:15:50
I don't know dick about magnetism either.

We must get confirmation on the 1 must already be a magnet thing.

Lazarus and the Gimp
19-07-2005, 22:19:06
Are you allowed to use magic?

Venom
19-07-2005, 22:28:02
Yes. As long as you don't use props.

jsorense
19-07-2005, 22:48:14
49. What materials does a magnet pull?

We are students working on a science project involving magnetism. We are investigating what types of metals are attracted to magnets. Could you please send us your opinion on this subject along with any other information you may have. Thanks!
Reply

Iron is attracted to magnets, but why? Because near a magnet, in its "magnetic field" (roughly, its region of influence) ordinary iron turns into a temporary magnet. See
http://www.phy6.org/earthmag/demagint.htm
and then go to the page "Performing Gilbert's Experiment on Induced Magnetism."

Iron and some alloys (and I am not sure, but also maybe nickel) turn into fairly strong temporary magnets. These are "ferromagnetic" materials--look up ferromagnetism in an encyclopaedia.

Many other materials are "paramagnetic" and while they too turn into temporary magnets, these are very feeble, and are only weakly attracted. "Diamagnetic" materials also turn into feeble magnets, but of opposite polarity, so these are slightly repelled.

http://www-spof.gsfc.nasa.gov/Education/Imagnet.html

Beta1
19-07-2005, 23:06:42
Originally posted by Venom
I don't know dick about magnetism either.

We must get confirmation on the 1 must already be a magnet thing.

yeah I'm a biologist but I have to teach some basic physics and chemistry. The chem ai can handle but the physics...

Funko
20-07-2005, 10:14:00
Rubbing two things together tends to move electrons from one object to the other (you've probably all rubbed a balloon on a jumper then stuck it to something which is a great example of this).

When electrons move they set up a magnetic field.

Iron in a magnetic field turns into a magnet.



So the long and the short of it is, if you rub two bits of iron together you can turn them into very, very weak magnets.

I have a feeling we did this at school with two bits of iron and some iron filings and you had to rub them very hard for a very long time to pick up very few filings.

fp
20-07-2005, 12:15:19
So Funko kills another thread by being sensible and helpful. Nobody will want to post in this thread anymore.

Koyaanisqatsi
20-07-2005, 12:16:13
Entropy
Trash Talk
Harm me with harmony.
Doomsday, drop a load on 'em.

Verse 1
Entropy, how can I explain it? I'll take it frame by frame it,
to have you all jumping, shouting saying it.
Let's just say that it's a measure of disorder,
in a system that is closed, like with a border.
It's sorta, like a, well a measurement of randomness,
proposed in 1850 by a German, but wait I digress.
"What the fuck is entropy?", I here the people still exclaiming,
it seems I gotta start the explaining.

You ever drop an egg and on the floor you see it break?
You go and get a mop so you can clean up your mistake.
But did you ever stop to ponder why we know it's true,
if you drop a broken egg you will not get an egg that's new.

That's entropy or E-N-T-R-O to the P to the Y,
the reason why the sun will one day all burn out and die.
Order from disorder is a scientific rarity,
allow me to explain it with a little bit more clarity.
Did I say rarity? I meant impossibility,
at least in a closed system there will always be more entropy.
That's entropy and I hope that you're all down with it,
if you are here's your membership.

Chorus
You down with entropy?
Yeah, you know me! (x3)
Who's down with entropy?
Every last homey!

Verse 2
Defining entropy as disorder's not complete,
'cause disorder as a definition doesn't cover heat.
So my first definition I would now like to withdraw,
and offer one that fits thermodynamics second law.
First we need to understand that entropy is energy,
energy that can't be used to state it more specifically.
In a closed system entropy always goes up,
that's the second law, now you know what's up.

You can't win, you can't break even, you can't leave the game,
'cause entropy will take it all 'though it seems a shame.
The second law, as we now know, is quite clear to state,
that entropy must increase and not dissipate.

Creationists always try to use the second law,
to disprove evolution, but their theory has a flaw.
The second law is quite precise about where it applies,
only in a closed system must the entropy count rise.
The earth's not a closed system' it's powered by the sun,
so fuck the damn creationists, Doomsday get my gun!
That, in a nutshell, is what entropy's about,
you're now down with a discount.

Chorus

Trash Talk
Hit it!
Doomsday, kick it in!

Close

Funko
20-07-2005, 12:16:27
BWAH HA HA HA HA HA HA

We haven't had confirmation on whether I was right or not yet.

Koyaanisqatsi
20-07-2005, 12:17:39
Q: How do magnets work?

Marsha Borski (age 9)
Southampton
Houston, Tx


A: Marsha,

That's an excellent question.

Try the following experiment with a magnet, some needles (the plain kind used to hold stuff together as you sew it), and a screwdriver. It will help you understand the explanation.

Touch a needle with a screwdriver and nothing unusual should happen (unless the screwdriver is already magnetized). Now, take some of the needles and hold them against the end of a magnet for a while (the stronger the better). After doing this, you will have turned each needle into a little magnet, and when you touch them with a screwdriver they will stick to it.

Some kinds of metals (like steel that the needles are made of) are made up of billions and billions of individual atoms that each have the properties of a microscopic magnet. The atoms in steel naturally tend to get together in tiny little groups called domains, and within each domain the atoms tend to point in the same direction, which makes the domains behave like a tiny little bar magnets just like the kind you have probably played with at school. The needle of a compass is also a bar magnet, and we know what this does: it points north because it likes to line itself up with the magnetic field of the earth.

When you make a piece of steel (like a needle), all of the tiny domain-magnets inside tend to get stuck pointing in different directions, which means that they more or less cancel each-other out, so to begin with the needle does not behave much like a magnet at all.

However, if you bring the needle close to another magnet of some kind, (like the ones on your fridge, or better yet some stronger ones you can find in your classroom) something interesting can happen: Because of the other magnet you are holding it near, the little domain magnets in your needle will tend to line up so that they are pointing along the same direction. (You can visualize this by holding two bar magnets near each other and noticing how they like to line up a certain way). The domains in the needle will do the same thing, and after you take the needle away from the other magnet, the domains in the needle will tend to stay pointing this way (they sort of get stuck pointing in the same direction). Now, since you have lots of these little domain magnets in the needle all pointing in the same direction, the needle will itself have become a small magnet. (This is exactly how bar magnets are made).

Magnets attract other magnets (as you can see), and also attract some kinds of metal like many kinds of steel. If you touch your magnetic needle with a steel screwdriver it will stick. However, stainless steel is not a very good magnetic material, so if you touch your magnetic needle with something made of stainless steel it will probably not stick (try it).

fp
20-07-2005, 12:17:52
Yeah, I suppose you're only the poor man's physics geek of the forum. We need KrazyHorse in here. Jon Miller probably knows too, but we wouldn't be able to read the answer.

fp
20-07-2005, 12:18:26
Try posting those in German, Koy.

Funko
20-07-2005, 12:19:18
KrazyHorse will probably post some really hard quantum physics as a response which even someone with a physics degree (ie. me) can't understand let alone a layman who just wants a simple answer.

Koyaanisqatsi
20-07-2005, 12:20:37
The song or the answer to the 9 year old?

Koyaanisqatsi
20-07-2005, 12:25:06
Yay Google!

Entropie
AbfallcGespräch
Schädigen Sie mich mit Harmonie.
Doomsday, lassen eine Last auf ' EM fallen.

Verse 1
Entropie, wie kann ich sie erklären? Ich nehme ihm Rahmen durch Rahmen es,
Sie haben, schreiend ganz springen, es sagend.
Lassen Sie uns gerade sagen, daß es ein Maß Störung ist,
in einem System, das geschlossen ist, wie mit einem Rand.
Es ist sorta, wie a, Brunnen ein Maß des Zufallscharakters,
vorgeschlagen 1850 durch einen Deutschen, aber digress der Wartezeit I.
"was das Bumsen Entropie?" ist, I hier die noch ausrufenden Leute,
es scheint, daß ich erhielt, das Erklären zu beginnen.

Sie lassen überhaupt ein Ei fallen und auf dem Fußboden sehen Sie ihn zu brechen?
Sie gehen reiben erhalten, also können Sie herauf Ihren Fehler säubern.
Aber tat Sie überhaupt Anschlag zum ponder, warum wir wissen, daß es zutreffend ist,
wenn Sie ein defektes Ei fallenlassen, erhalten Sie nicht ein Ei, das neu ist.

Das ist Entropie oder zum P zum Y E-n-t-r-o,
der Grund, warum die Sonne ein Tag aller ausbrennt und stirbt.
Auftrag von der Störung ist ein wissenschaftliches rarity,
erlauben Sie mir, ihn mit mehr Klarheit ein wenig zu erklären.
Sagte ich rarity? Ich bedeutete Unmöglichkeit,
mindestens in einem geschlossenen System gibt es immer mehr Entropie.
Die ist Entropie und ich hoffe, daß alle Sie niederwerfen mit ihr sind,
wenn Sie sind hier Ihre Mitgliedschaft sind.

Chorus
Sie unten mit Entropie?
Yeah kennen Sie mich! (x3)
Wer ist unten mit Entropie?
Jedes Letzte homey!

Verse 2
Entropie als Störung definierend nicht, führen Sie durch,
' Ursachenstörung als Definition umfaßt nicht Hitze.
So meine erste Definition, die ich jetzt zurücknehmen möchte,
und bieten Sie ein an, das Gesetz der Thermodynamik zweite paßt.
Zuerst müssen wir verstehen, daß Entropie Energie ist,
Energie, die nicht verwendet werden kann, um sie spezifischer anzugeben.
In geschlossenem System geht eine Entropie immer oben,
das ist das zweite Gesetz, jetzt Sie wissen, was oben ist.

Sie können nicht gewinnen, Sie können nicht sogar brechen, Sie können nicht das Spiel lassen,
' Ursachenentropie nimmt es allen ', obwohl es eine Schande scheint.
Das zweite Gesetz, wie wir jetzt wissen, ist ziemlich frei anzugeben,
diese Entropie muß sich erhöhen und nicht sich zerstreuen.

Creationists Versuch immer zum Verwenden des zweiten Gesetzes,
, Entwicklung, aber ihre Theorie zu widerlegen hat einen Fehler.
Das zweite Gesetz ist ungefähr, wo es zutrifft ziemlich exakt,
nur in einem geschlossenen System muß der Entropiezählimpulsaufstieg.
Ein geschlossenes System der Masse nicht ' es wird durch die Sonne angetrieben,
bumsen Sie so die verfluchten creationists, Doomsday erhalten meine Gewehr!
Das, in einer Nußschale, ist, was Entropie ungefähr,
Sie sind niederwerfen jetzt mit einem Diskont.

Chorus

AbfallcGespräch
Schlagen Sie es!
Doomsday, treten es innen!

Ende

Chris
20-07-2005, 12:43:02
If we knew anything, we wouldn't be posting here, so why ask questions?

Mr. Bas
20-07-2005, 13:09:14
I don't think the rubbing will do anything to magnetize the material. Like someone else already said, it is possible to magnetize iron and other stuff by putting it into a magnetic field, but I don't see how rubbing would do the trick.

Electrostatically, you just have electrons being moved from one of the materials to the other by the rubbing, so that they both become slightly charged. I can't see how Weiss domains could hop in a similar way.

Funko
20-07-2005, 13:15:29
Moving charges create magnetic fields...

MoSe
20-07-2005, 13:19:21
EDIT: this was X-posted before reading Funko's interjection
____
hhhmmmm.... what if one is a magnet and the other is a piece of iron with a coiled circuit arond it?
the rubbing movement (or even just the contacless waving) would induce currents in the coil, which in turn would generate their own mag field...

I probably just said some bestiality, otoh one of my former titles was the forum's CrapScientist... :cute:

Funko
20-07-2005, 13:22:15
I don't really know how it works but pretty sure I've done it.

Koyaanisqatsi
20-07-2005, 13:22:40
The electromagnet would be ridiculously weak in that scenario.

Mr. Bas
20-07-2005, 13:24:43
So? Rubbing causes the electron to move and then it's static again. Alright, it might induce a very weak magnetization, but I'd say it's quite insignificant.

But ofcourse, like MoSe said, you can have induction and such effects, but I don't really think that's what Venom meant.

Funko
20-07-2005, 13:25:25
It's possible one of the bits of metal I was rubbing with was a magnet of course.

Mr. Bas
20-07-2005, 13:26:01
Or it might be superconducting.

Drekkus
20-07-2005, 13:27:50
Maybe Venom's trying to become a babe magnet by rubbing himself.

Mr. Bas
20-07-2005, 13:29:54
:D

Venom
20-07-2005, 13:31:55
I said metal asshole. I'm not trying to get the plate in my head attracted to cyborg women.

MoSe
20-07-2005, 13:38:50
besides, the only -uction rhyming word he knows is suction.

Venom
20-07-2005, 13:43:12
Yeah, your mom taught me that one for cheap.

Funko
20-07-2005, 13:44:07
Cyborg women are always hot. Discuss.

Drekkus
20-07-2005, 13:44:59
How many cyborg women have you seen?

Koyaanisqatsi
20-07-2005, 13:45:35
seven.

Funko
20-07-2005, 13:45:56
I can only think of 7of9 and the bionic woman at the moment. Both hot.

MoSe
20-07-2005, 13:46:35
Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi
seven. how many there are in total?

bastard joke spoiling funko grrr

Koyaanisqatsi
20-07-2005, 13:48:35
I think Funko's time in the sun is over.

Venom
20-07-2005, 13:48:42
And it has to be cyborg women. Not women robots.

Koyaanisqatsi
20-07-2005, 13:51:27
http://www.bravofleet.com/images/bloopers/Playborg.jpg

Funko
20-07-2005, 14:49:24
Originally posted by Venom
And it has to be cyborg women. Not women robots.

Yeah, so the latest terminator doesn't count.

Drekkus
20-07-2005, 14:53:01
Originally posted by Venom
And it has to be cyborg women. Not women robots. How many hot women robots are there??

Venom
20-07-2005, 14:56:08
Terminatrix, the Femmebots

Drekkus
20-07-2005, 15:02:17
are that porn movies?

Venom
20-07-2005, 15:13:11
No. They're from Terminator 3 and Austin Powers

Lurker the Second
20-07-2005, 15:22:15
Originally posted by Funko
let alone a layman who just wants a simple answer.

Or, in Venom's case, a simple man who wants a lay.

Venom
20-07-2005, 15:25:32
I'm so desperate.

The Norks
20-07-2005, 15:25:43
why do you want to know about magnets anyway? I hope you aren't planning something that involves holding earth to ransom, while concentrating the energy of the sun into a super hot death laser...or something

Venom
20-07-2005, 15:27:41
Ummmm....No. Of course not.

Venom
20-07-2005, 15:28:16
All units, go to plan B. I say again, Plan B.

MoSe
20-07-2005, 18:57:25
??? what plan B???

Funko
20-07-2005, 18:59:21
Venom's plan be is normally to lay around scratching his fat arse, drinking beer and watching TV.

Lurker the Second
20-07-2005, 19:02:17
I thought you Left Forever? Fucked that up, too, I see.

Funko
20-07-2005, 19:03:26
I was told to post misinformation!

Funko
20-07-2005, 19:03:47
Had to try and find out if my internet was fixed, wasn't expecting it to be.

Venom
20-07-2005, 19:08:05
Originally posted by Funko
Venom's plan be is normally to lay around scratching his fat arse, drinking beer and watching TV.

That's plan A. Always plan A. We were operating on Operation Cocknballs. But that's been blown now.

Funko
20-07-2005, 19:09:47
Operation cocknballs sucked.

Venom
20-07-2005, 19:14:50
And we paid the price.

MDA
20-07-2005, 20:18:19
:heart: