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Oerdin
18-07-2005, 22:08:56
Whine for me some more about how comparing the number of problems vehicles experience over a three year period isn't worth while. Its looking like a good indication of vehicle quality to me.

http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases/vds2005089.asp

http://www.jdpower.com/presspass/pr/images/2005089a.gif

http://www.jdpower.com/pdf/2005089.pdf

Summary: American cars are proven to have fewer problems over a three year period then most Japanese cars while most European cars continue to have quality problems.

Oerdin
18-07-2005, 22:09:50
Euros do slightly better in the intial quality survey but not much.

Oerdin
18-07-2005, 22:14:16
BTW I think it was mike wo asked why they didn't have a UK intial or long term quality report. The anwser is they did up until 2000 but EU manufacturers were doing so poorly in the rankings that they stopped turning over repair information! :lol:

"Our crappy cars are being exposed for the garbage they are! Quick, hide the data!" :lol:

At least in the US car makers are legally required to release repair, recall, and warrenty information to the public free of charge. It seems most of the European makes try to hide that data because it makes them look bad.

Cruddy
18-07-2005, 22:15:54
Close the factories while you're at it.

Oh....

Lazarus and the Gimp
18-07-2005, 22:21:00
Lexus sure is a long way put in front, isn't it?

Oerdin
18-07-2005, 22:22:59
10 points on Porche and 12 on Lincoln.

Oerdin
18-07-2005, 22:53:12
BTW this is a three year study so those cars were built in 2002 and the results released last month. Since the ongoing trend has been for the domestic brands to be the fastest improving I would expect to see the 2005 models even higher up the list.

Asher
19-07-2005, 00:59:55
You're a fucking tool.

American cars are made to self-destruct after their warranty periods expire -- I know this second-hand from my brother who is a mechanical engineer for a company who designs parts for GM, Ford, Toyota, and Honda. The difference in QA requirements between the American and Japanese brands are staggering.

Asher
19-07-2005, 01:05:13
You missed this thread by the way: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=135799

I have incontrovertible proof that JD Powers' "long term" reliability statistic is nonsense: They claim the 2002 Chevrolet Malibu is more reliable than the 2002 Toyota Camry.

That's the most ridiculous thing I have EVER heard. Everyone knows Malibus are some of the least reliable piece of shits on the road. Anecodtal evidence is I know of 2 people with Malibus, both of which are crap...and we had them as a rental car once as well.

Go figure that Consumer Reports has no good things to say about the Malibur either:
http://www.autooninfo.net/RelPerMVP11ChevPon.gif

Vs the Camry:
http://www.autooninfo.net/RelPerMVP01Toyota.gif

Other fun statistics of the quality American vehicles:
http://www.autooninfo.net/Chartof2004Recalls0630.gif

http://www.autooninfo.net/Chartof2003Recalls.gif

JD Powers & Associates are a complete joke -- a for-profit American firm with results favoring American firms. I am completely astonished.

A non-profit group like Consumer Reports has completely different results...also quite amazing, isn't it?

Sir Penguin
19-07-2005, 04:43:36
Toyota's awesome. I want a Prius.

SP

Oerdin
19-07-2005, 05:21:38
I believe we've gone through how Consumer Reports is complete garbage since all they ask is how people feel not hard numbers. I.E. Consumer Reports provides entirely subjective information while J. D. Powers gives entirely objective information about things which can be physically measured or counted. Thus anyone could do the same tests and come up with the exact same results as J. D. Powers while Consumer Reports varies completely. CR's big problem is what one person considers good is unacceptable to another so there for their questions about is something excellent, good, not good, bad, etc is complete subjective. Statistical Quality Control by taking measurable data is the way to do it.

Oerdin
19-07-2005, 05:23:34
Wow, you mean if you build five times as many models then you end up having more individual models involved in recalls? I would never guess.

The more useful measurement would be recalls per 1000 cars or recalls per model. That would be comparing apples to apples but of course CR doesn't do that. That's why they've lost so many law suits.

Asher
19-07-2005, 05:55:55
The recalls number is for total amount of cars being recalled, period. It has shit-all to do with how many models they have. You're doing your usual smoke & mirrors thing to try to dismiss the blindingly obvious facts going against you...

Toyota is the #2 automaker in the world...look at how many recalls they have (in TOTAL NUMBER OF VEHICLES, this has nothing to do with models). Compare that to GM as a percentage. Then honestly try to tell me how good GM's quality is...

And I know you discredit Consumer Reports, but you've completely ignored the fact that your same argument about sampling bias applies to JD Powers & Associates (and this isn't counting the fact that they're a private company that counts on cooperation with the manufacturers for their statistics, unlike CR).

And I don't know why CR's numbers are varying completely. Looking at the charts above, they look pretty fucking consistent to me.

Toyota Camrys are more reliable than Chevy Malibus...everyone knows that.

The fact that the Camry didn't even get an honourable mention in JDP&A's report is even more laughable. Hyundai got a mention and not Toyota? Come fucking on.

The JD Powers & Associates are biased, fucking useless measurements that test reliability DURING WARRANTY PERIODS. Why the fuck does that matter -- it's FREE if it's under warranty.

It's a bit odd to me that their methods are incredibly convenient for the American car manufacturers -- who design the cars to last only under warranty so you can use GM Goodwrench Service to replace your overpriced parts later when they're not free. It's also a bit odd that they're completely going against most people's anecdotal evidence, and completely going against the consistent statistical evidence of non-profit organizations.

Why the fuck would Consumer Reports lie, what motivation do they have? Why the fuck is Toyota so consistently GOOD in CR, and GM so consistently CRAP?

Your patriotic bias is blinding. JD Powers & Associates awards are meaningless because:
1) They are under warranty
2) They are a for-profit company that seems to want to keep a good relationship with the American car manufacturers
3) Their results are laughably wrong...

Oerdin
19-07-2005, 05:58:32
Patriotic bias? You do know I own one Japanese and one US car, right? I don't feel I'm an especially biased in this area (or else I wouldn't have bought a foreign car) though I do feel I can loook at the methodologies involved a determine why one is superior to the other.

Asher
19-07-2005, 05:59:52
You mean why JD P & Associates is superior when they call people's houses and ask them "what car do you have and how many defects do you have in that car?"

Most people hang up on assholes like that -- I sure as hell would.

Though maybe if I were an American being called, and I was patriotic (USA USA USA USA USA!), I would like to defend the local companies employing so many of my friends. Perhaps fudging some facts here and there. ;)

Oerdin
19-07-2005, 06:00:20
Originally posted by Asher

Toyota is the #2 automaker in the world...look at how many recalls they have (in TOTAL NUMBER OF VEHICLES, this has nothing to do with models).

Survey says? BUZZZZ. Toyota is the second largest car maker but once Ford's trucks and SUVs are included they are still ahead. Or atleast that's what I remember reading a year or two back when this whole "OMG! TOYOTA PASSED FORD!!111!!111!!" thing came up.

Asher
19-07-2005, 06:02:23
It doesn't fucking matter. Don't play semantics with me.

http://www.autooninfo.net/Chartof2004Recalls0630.gif
http://www.autooninfo.net/Chartof2003Recalls.gif

Survey says you're being a dense twat. Survey says GM has WAY, WAY more recalls than Toyota does -- consistently.

Survey says that is not a good indicator of quality.

Oerdin
19-07-2005, 06:06:06
Originally posted by Asher
You mean why JD P & Associates is superior when they call people's houses and ask them "what car do you have and how many defects do you have in that car?"

I mean the JD Powers is superior because they exclusively use measurable data in order to remain objective plus it takes data equally from all manufacturers. Consumer Reports only bothers to record reports from people who buy their magazine, bother to fill out the questionaire, and return it to them. Then you have the whole problem that their questionaire doesn't include many hard numbers and instead asks subjective questions about how people feel.

There is the original systematic sampling error but there is also the fact that he results aren't hard numbers and aren't reproducable. In science we considered nonreproducable results to be totally worthless and that standard seems to apply here. J. D. Powers at least turns everything into hard measurements which anyone can reproduce just by taking the same measurements. This takes the guess work and opinion out and instead replaces it with hard facts.

Asher
19-07-2005, 06:08:36
You're out to lunch my friend.

Keep buying Chevys under the impression they're reliable cars, it ain't no skin off my back.

Keep putting cheap crap out there and you'll get American dumb enough to buy it.

On a completely random note, my BF's brother MSNed me for car advice:
Dave says:
you want a small car?
Mi|<e says:
any will do
Dave says:
http://www.autooninfo.net/ReliabilityPercentranksSmallCar.htm
Mi|<e says:
93 camry is 9k
Dave says:
that's a percentrank value based on consumer reports for reliability
Dave says:
higher number (closer to 1) is better
Mi|<e says:
94 tercel is 4k
Dave says:
chart for larger cars (ie, camry): http://www.autooninfo.net/ReliabilityPercentranksFamilyLarge.htm
Mi|<e says:
camry's a good one
Dave says:
yeah, Toyotas are very very good
Dave says:
reliable cars
Mi|<e says:
but 9 G's
Mi|<e says:
eek
Dave says:
tercel is good, but smaller
Dave says:
the reason they're expensive is they hold thier value well
Mi|<e says:
corolla 6k
Dave says:
because they're reliable still when old
Mi|<e says:
tercel 4k
Dave says:
american cars will be cheaper, they'll cost more in maintenance though
Mi|<e says:
yeah I know
Mi|<e says:
tried to fix an 86 lebaron
Mi|<e says:
was a lost cause

Oerdin
19-07-2005, 06:09:20
I'm not contending that Toyota doesn't make a good car. J. D. Powers results say the same thing. What I am saying is your claim that American cars are low quality junk is completely unfounded.

Can you at least admit that?

Asher
19-07-2005, 06:13:13
American cars are low quality junk.

My basis is founded on the countless Chevys and Ford I see dead on the side of the road, my friends and relatives who own such cars (including my uncle who works for Ford as a quality assurance manager at one of their Ontario plants), and I know they're crap. They do too.

I know from my mechanical engineer brother who worked on designing parts that are in the '07 Camry and in the new Pontiac G6 that GM takes many quality shortcuts -- they did a study based on how much use the component would endure during the specified warranty period, then designed it only to meet that standard. Toyota, on the other hand, had standards far and above that for quality. GM went for flimsier plastic (this is for dashboards and air conditioning vents), while Toyota went for harder, more expensive plastic.

I know because Consumer Reports consistently shows American cars being crap as well.

You come prancing around with a systematically biased for-profit company's report, that I constantly see in American car company ads on TV by the way...never Toyota/Honda, and think it's the end-all and be-all of quality.

It's just not...

Oerdin
19-07-2005, 06:17:24
I believe we went over why consumer reports is laughed at by most people who bother to look at their methodology.

You on the other hand have not showing any systematic sampling bias.

Asher
19-07-2005, 06:20:09
American for-profit company getting revenues every time their awards are mentioned in American car company ads shown on TV (reminds me of the "Intel Inside" revenue scheme). Why is it surprising.

Why is it surprising that when they randomly call Americans asking for defects, they may get misleading results in favor of American companies?

There's so many factors here...it's just not a reliable source.

You dismiss Consumer Reports as not reliable -- fine.

So what we're left with a hard, cold facts like recall numbers.

http://www.autooninfo.net/Chartof2003Recalls.gif

Why so many recalls if they're so high quality?

Oerdin
19-07-2005, 06:33:09
I'm just not seeing the misleading results, Asher my boy. I'm seeing a well done measurable and reporiducable survey were as you are favoring a survey with dodgy methodology and obvious sampling bias.

As for a company being for profit; hell all the major polling companies are for profit as well but that doesn't bring their results into question. Also J. D. Powers using the sample methodology to measure quality in dozens of other industries as well. It's simply a good survey but you don't like it because it prove you are wrong.

Asher
19-07-2005, 06:34:38
How many times can you blatantly avoid the actual arguments.

You think JDPowers is reliable, I don't.
You think Consumer Reports is not reliable, I do.

So we'll discard them both to get to the core of the argument.

----

So what we're left with a hard, cold facts like recall numbers.

http://www.autooninfo.net/Chartof2003Recalls.gif

Why so many recalls if they're so high quality?

Oerdin
19-07-2005, 06:37:16
BTW your recall data in raw numbers makes you look dense since GM sells many, many, many, many times as many cars in the US then Toyota. You just don't get it do you? To compare accurately you must reduce it to defects per set number of units.

That's comparing things in like amounts so you can tell relative differences. This stupid "so and so had X million cars recalled last year" is worthless garbage and continues to show why CR is trash. To compare things you need like sampling size so they should be comparing recalls per 1,000 vehicles.

you know it; I know it. CR knows it to and that's why they won't do it.

Oerdin
19-07-2005, 06:38:41
Also I have explained fully why CR is not worth the paper it is printed on while the best you've been able to come up with against J. D. Powers is that they're a for profit company! :lol:

Come on Asher, try a little here.

Asher
19-07-2005, 07:11:42
Your arguments against CR are bunk and aren't worth any time to debunk -- they're rhetoric that mostly applies to JD Powers & Associates. Both are sampling methods plagued by non-response bias, the key difference is JD Powers & Associates has a profit motivation in favor of American companies who repeatedly use their awards as trophies in their ads, while they're ignored by the Japanese companies.

You've constantly ignored the real issue of American quality -- I know from design specs they're not designed with quality as the #1 issue.

Anyway:

GM sold 4,987,500 vehicles in 2003 in the US (source: GM: http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewmonthlyreleasedetail.do?domain=3&docid=2215)

Toyota sold 1,866,314 vehicles in 2003 in the US (source: Toyota: http://www.toyotageorgetown.com/detailnews.asp?PRID=63)

Toyota recalled 200,000 vehicles in 2003, which is 10.7% as a total % of Toyota vehicles sold during 2003 in the USA.

GM recalled 7,400,000 vehicles in 2003, which is 148.4% as a total % of GM vehicles sold during 2003 in the USA.

Now that we have a level playing field -- mind explaining why GM's recall rate is 13.8x higher than Toyotas, if they are of a comparable or higher quality?

Asher
19-07-2005, 07:18:29
As for the OP (I'm going to bed right now):
Whine for me some more about how comparing the number of problems vehicles experience over a three year period isn't worth while. Its looking like a good indication of vehicle quality to me.

Because 3 years is well within the warranty periods, where repairs are done for free. It is therefore in the best interests of all companies to reduce defects during this period.

The problem is 5+ year reliability, when the warranty isn't protecting the car, so repair costs come out of your pocket. Curiously, GM makes a lot of money from its "GM Goodwrench Service" bullshit, which is what people use when they need to get a new transmission or whatever in their 8 year old American boat.

That's another thing -- why are Toyota/Honda so much better at retaining their value compared to GM cars, if the GM cars were just as reliable over the years?

Oerdin
19-07-2005, 07:56:51
The anwser is very simple asher. Market perceptions lag reality thus many people aren't aware of how quality has shifted in the last 5 years (as shown by J .D. Powers where as CR continues to only bother with cars 2000 or older) and that there is a lower supply of Japanese cars in the US. That means if you want a red Honda S2000 (or name any other model) there will be fewer of them to choose from then a domestic. If I want a red Corvette I will likely find many more then a similiar Japanese sports car. Supply is lower so demand doesn't have to be as high to maintain prices. This has been explained to you before.

Now, lets look at the other makers besides Toyota since EVERYONE has already said Toyota is the best. Let's include Honda, Nissan, Subaru, Mazda, Suziki, Isuzu, and all the others. Wait you mean to tell me that Toyota is the exception and that the other Japanese brands are lower in quality then many (most?) American brands? I'm shocked you wouldn't bring that up, Asher. :rolleyes:

Dyl Ulenspiegel
19-07-2005, 09:38:23
Originally posted by Oerdin
Whine for me some more about how comparing the number of problems vehicles experience over a three year period isn't worth while.

Is that based on survey data, or on manufacturer data, or what?

I took a look at their UK and german information for the Audi A 6. Not only do they differ widely, but they are also unable to show the correct model - the 2005 Audi A6 looks a bit different...

jdpower:
http://www.jdpower.com/cc/global/de/depvs/images/vehicles/20050006.jpg

audi:
http://www.audiusa.com/common/images/2005_ext_gallery3_a6sedan_lg.jpg

Dyl Ulenspiegel
19-07-2005, 09:56:00
Originally posted by Oerdin
BTW I think it was mike wo asked why they didn't have a UK intial or long term quality report. The anwser is they did up until 2000 but EU manufacturers were doing so poorly in the rankings that they stopped turning over repair information! :lol:

"Our crappy cars are being exposed for the garbage they are! Quick, hide the data!" :lol:

At least in the US car makers are legally required to release repair, recall, and warrenty information to the public free of charge. It seems most of the European makes try to hide that data because it makes them look bad.

The benchmark here is the ADAC report. Funny, as the recent one shows a lot of improvement vs the Japanese brands.

http://www.adac.de/Auto_Motorrad/pannen_und_maengel/pannenstatistik_2004/default.asp?ComponentID=113337&SourcePageID=9989%230

eg middle class: http://www.adac.de/Auto_Motorrad/pannen_und_maengel/pannenstatistik_2004/mittelklasse/default.asp?ComponentID=113328&SourcePageID=113507%230

eg lower middle:
http://www.adac.de/Auto_Motorrad/pannen_und_maengel/pannenstatistik_2004/untere_Mittelklasse/default.asp?ComponentID=113326&SourcePageID=113507%230

Funko
19-07-2005, 10:24:20
I haven't read this thread but I suspect, despite the use of graphs, it's the most boring thread ever.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
19-07-2005, 10:27:40
I find it interesting, so probably yes....

Funko
19-07-2005, 10:29:39
:beer:

Oerdin
19-07-2005, 10:30:37
Originally posted by Dyl Ulenspiegel
Is that based on survey data, or on manufacturer data, or what?

I took a look at their UK and german information for the Audi A 6. Not only do they differ widely, but they are also unable to show the correct model - the 2005 Audi A6 looks a bit different...

jdpower:
http://www.jdpower.com/cc/global/de/depvs/images/vehicles/20050006.jpg

audi:
http://www.audiusa.com/common/images/2005_ext_gallery3_a6sedan_lg.jpg

It's manufacturer's data combined with their own research team. Also that is the correct A6 given that the cars which took part in this 3 year long study were built in 2005 before the current Audi came out.

BTW J. D. Powers has measured a 25% reduction in the average number of quality defects in cars since 1998 so all cars are getting better in quality and some brands are doing better then others as your German language study says.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
19-07-2005, 10:34:32
"manufacturer's data combined with their own research team"

So what is the exact database?

And the current Audi A6 sedan came out in 2004, while they dub the old one "Audi A6 2005".

Oerdin
19-07-2005, 10:37:44
You could write J. D. Powers and ask them for their data set if you like. If you are refering to the study I linked, and I believe that is where you got the Audi picture, then it is a 2002 model. They studied those models for three years and released the results this month. J. D. Powers also offers an intitial quality study which gives defects and problems with in the first three months of ownership and the 2005 survey is available on their website.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
19-07-2005, 10:43:32
Go to their website, pick the german and UK flags, select Audi A6, and they caption the photo I linked as "2005 Audi A6". It's not a particularly dramatic mistake, just odd. You can admit it without a crank in your jingoistic armor.

More interesting is the diversity of the ratings, which suggests a high subjective influence, maybe of consumer expectations.

Oerdin
19-07-2005, 10:47:47
They do have other studies which are subjective based upon how consumers feel however the quality study is the one I quoted and it deals with hard numbers.

I'll check out the pages you suggested. It is possible they used an old photograph instead of the new one.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
19-07-2005, 10:49:48
As for methodology:

http://www.jdpower.com/cc/global/de/content/faq_general.jsp#question03

How does J.D. Power and Associates conduct studies?

J.D. Power and Associates surveys actual consumers by mail, telephone and e-mail. The firm goes to great lengths to make sure that these consumers are chosen at random and that they actually own the product or company they are rating. For example, ratings for the Honda Jazz come from people who actually own one. As a result, J.D. Power ratings are based entirely on consumer opinions and in no way reflect the opinions or preferences of the firm or its researchers.

So it's a poll about consumer happiness, which is very subjective and with problematic participation.

Oerdin
19-07-2005, 10:53:24
That's Germany. As previously stated in the EU manufacturers aren't legally required to release manufacturer's data so they don't. They are required to do so in the US. Also please link the German Study as I suspect you are looking at the costumer satisfaction study.

That is hugely different from manufacturer quality studies.

Oerdin
19-07-2005, 10:56:04
It looks like much of their data is on the corporate instead of consumer site. That means you have to pay to get to see it. :(

Dyl Ulenspiegel
19-07-2005, 11:09:57
I don't get it. I checked the press release on their corporate site.

http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2005089

"The 2005 Vehicle Dependability Study is based on responses from 50,635 original owners of 2002 model-year cars and light trucks."

Is this the study you linked?

If yes, what other information is added IYO, and on what do you base that idea?

protein
19-07-2005, 11:42:23
Originally posted by Funko
I haven't read this thread but I suspect, despite the use of graphs, it's the most boring thread ever.
I've never understood interest in mundane tables and figures so I'll pop this thread in the Asher's Aspergers file. :lol:

Asher
19-07-2005, 15:19:21
You never addressed the massive recall rate differences, Oerdin. Again.

GM sold 4,987,500 vehicles in 2003 in the US (source: GM: http://media.gm.com/servlet/Gateway...in=3&docid=2215)

Toyota sold 1,866,314 vehicles in 2003 in the US (source: Toyota: http://www.toyotageorgetown.com/detailnews.asp?PRID=63)

Toyota recalled 200,000 vehicles in 2003, which is 10.7% as a total % of Toyota vehicles sold during 2003 in the USA.

GM recalled 7,400,000 vehicles in 2003, which is 148.4% as a total % of GM vehicles sold during 2003 in the USA.

Now that we have a level playing field -- mind explaining why GM's recall rate is 13.8x higher than Toyotas, if they are of a comparable or higher quality?

protein
19-07-2005, 15:22:47
It's a 1949 Buick Roadmaster. Straight 8. Fireball 8. Only 8,985 production models. Dad let's me drive slow on the driveway.

*rocks back and forth*

But not on Monday, definitely not on Monday.

Uh oh fart. Uh oh fart

Definitely watch TV but you have to be in bed at eleven. Lights out at eleven.

Uh oh, nineteen minutes to eleven.

Greg W
19-07-2005, 15:24:24
Originally posted by Funko
I haven't read this thread but I suspect, despite the use of graphs, it's the most boring thread ever.

protein
19-07-2005, 15:26:28
Raymond: I'm an excellent driver.

Charlie: When did you drive?

Raymond: I drove slow on the driveway when my dad came to Walbrook.

Charlie: Was Dad in the car?

Raymond: Yeah.

Charlie: I'll have to let you drive sometime.

[Raymond grabs the wheel and nearly steers them into an oncoming car]

Charlie: Raymond, you NEVER! NEVER touch the steering wheel when I'm driving. Do you hear me? Do you hear me?

The Norks
19-07-2005, 15:52:20
Originally posted by protein
It's a 1949 Buick Roadmaster. Straight 8. Fireball 8. Only 8,985 production models. Dad let's me drive slow on the driveway.

*rocks back and forth*

But not on Monday, definitely not on Monday.

Uh oh fart. Uh oh fart

Definitely watch TV but you have to be in bed at eleven. Lights out at eleven.

Uh oh, nineteen minutes to eleven.

definitely not my underpants..definitely not..

:lol:

Lazarus and the Gimp
19-07-2005, 17:40:29
Geek forum!

Oerdin
19-07-2005, 17:49:01
Originally posted by Asher
You never addressed the massive recall rate differences, Oerdin. Again.

The feds can force recalls on cars up to 10 years old while companies themselves will sometimes go even further back in order to make a good public relations play.

The domestics only climbed above the average and started to pass the many Japanese makes in quality since the very late 1990's. Since there has been such a major push to improve quality in the last half decade then cars older then that would not have benifeted from the big improvements.

Also I have explained that Toyota is an exceptional makers that is acknowledged to be the best. Please include Honda, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Suburu, Mazda, Isuzu, Suzuki, and all the other Japanese makes. You will see the domestics stack up very well, but, you know this and that is why you continue to be disingenious and only including Toyota. ISn't it?

Asher
19-07-2005, 18:26:19
The feds can force recalls on cars up to 10 years old while companies themselves will sometimes go even further back in order to make a good public relations play.

That doesn't explain it. Even then, there's evidence of Ford not recalling enough vehicles when it SHOULD, because it knew of bad parts that could cause cars to catch fire even while turned off.

I single out Toyota (and to a lesser extent, Honda), because they are the top players.

The thing is, all American makes -- without fail -- are inferior in quality to Toyota and Honda. Not all Japanese brands are good in quality.

All American brands are bad in quality, though. Some are better than others, but it doesn't matter really.

Beta1
19-07-2005, 22:18:22
Originally posted by Asher
You never addressed the massive recall rate differences, Oerdin. Again.
...
GM recalled 7,400,000 vehicles in 2003, which is 148.4% as a total % of GM vehicles sold during 2003 in the USA
...


Random question - how do you recall 148% of the cars you sell?

Are some being recalled twice? That really is shite.

What I dont get is why americans don't/can't build cars that go around corners well?

If the blues brothers had been filmed with european cars it would have been as boring as hell - they wouldn't have been swerving off the road and smashing through shop windows as the cars would have gone where they were steered!

Asher
20-07-2005, 00:15:00
Originally posted by Beta1
Random question - how do you recall 148% of the cars you sell?

Are some being recalled twice? That really is shite.

What I dont get is why americans don't/can't build cars that go around corners well?

If the blues brothers had been filmed with european cars it would have been as boring as hell - they wouldn't have been swerving off the road and smashing through shop windows as the cars would have gone where they were steered!
They can recall cars from previous years as well.

Asher
20-07-2005, 04:21:03
paging oerdin, oerdin to the front desk please

Oerdin
20-07-2005, 04:25:21
Originally posted by Asher
[B
All American brands are bad in quality, though. Some are better than others, but it doesn't matter really. [/B]

Would Asher make an unsubstantiated claim based solely upon his opinion even though he's been proven wrong multiple times? No, never.

Asher
20-07-2005, 04:26:49
I think there's lots of substantiation in this thread, substantiation that you refuse to even read or acknowledge it would seem.

Why the insanely high recall rates in comparison?

Wouldn't you say a vehicle that needs to be recalled consistently is of a lower quality than a vehicle that does not need to be recalled? That perhaps by less rigourous quality standards set by this manufacturer, more critical defects were discovered in their vehicles relative to the competition, thereby implying they are of lower quality?

Oerdin
20-07-2005, 04:34:29
Higher recall rates compared to Toyota? Yes, we have gone over that and I, and J. D. Powers, have ackownledged that Toyota is the best. Your claim that since no other make matches Toyota that it means they are crap is what is unfounded.

These rankings compare the entire industry not just one company and compared to industry standards the domestics are most certainly in the top 1/4 of manufacturers. You know it, I know it. That is why you won't even talk about Mazda though you purchased one and instead continue to only talk about Toyota.

I'm afraid we've gone round and round again but suffice it to say just about everyone who watches the industry and makes factual based comparisons of industry quality says that you are wrong. I just wanted to point out that yet another study has come out proving you are out of touch with reality on this topic.

Asher
20-07-2005, 04:40:23
It's not just a minor thing of being better than Toyota.

It's a huge, staggering lead.

You're trying to make it sound like Toyota has marginally less recalls...it's a huge, huge difference.

You pointed "another study" has come out proving I'm out of touch with reality? You keep using the same fucking study every year -- JD Powers & Associates. Literally, every other resource (including nonprofit surveys as well as cold, hard facts such as recall rates) paint GM and other American cars being substantially behind companies like Toyota and Honda in terms of reliability.

It is factually incorrect to say they're as good, or even close to being as good as Toyota or Honda.

The fact is, they are crap by comparison. Why would you buy such a piece of crap? The vast majority of them are fugly to boot.