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The Norks
20-06-2005, 17:06:35
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4111360.stm

who would have thought it!


Overall I think this experiment is about as scientific as a flying sheep, and probably just an excuse for sex starved labcoats to ogle people thru a 2-way mirror, but I LOVE the Swiss Tony advice at the end:

"When you want to make love to a woman, you must give her the feeling of being protected."

:lol:

Funko
20-06-2005, 17:11:23
It's generally impossible to tell how well conducted an experiment was from the kind of popular coverage you get in mass media - but the results there seem pretty reasonable and what they've told of the experiment doesn't sound unscientific.

The sock thing is the only surprise, and I bet that's the bit the media have blown up to get their angle.

Provost Harrison
20-06-2005, 17:13:51
Yeah, that was probably one of those bizarre casual observations from the research :lol:

The Norks
20-06-2005, 17:15:40
its total tripe- how do they get funding for this (literal) toss?

Its taken a tiny group, put them out of their natural location, made them do something mechanically that would usually happen naturally, and then randomly put them in socks. Its about as reliable as Sigmund Freud's case notes. And why the obsession with women faking orgasms? I reckon someone there is having trouble at home lol.

Provost Harrison
20-06-2005, 17:18:57
The point is a valid one - the surroundings are hardly conducive to normal sex, especially regarding the required relation. And if your partner had an MRI scanner strapped to their head, it's a bit offputting, isn't it?

The Norks
20-06-2005, 17:20:12
exactly. I only did A-level sociology but even i can see about a thousand holes in this 'experiment'.

anyway, it cheered me up :D

Funko
20-06-2005, 17:24:08
Yeah, ignore the sock thing, typical bad science reporting.

The brain activity differences seem reasonable. I would have thought that being outside a normal safe environment would make orgasms more difficult but the underlying brain activity when they happen wouldn't be much different. That's speculation of course, this is one of those scientific experiments where the experimental technique is necessarily quite intrusive.

Research into orgasms has generally done for a few reasons, one is to help understand the physical and mental processes in the hope you can treat sexual disfunctions, another is because the female orgasm is a bit of a mystery. It seems to serve no useful purpose so why did it evolve? and thirdly how our brains work is generally something we know very little about and is worth investigating.

There are good reasons why the experiments were done, less good reasons why this is on the BBC website. There are many brain activity experiments conducted that don't get international media coverage, the media just knows that sex sells. :)

Funko
20-06-2005, 17:25:15
The female orgasm seems to be a bit of a fad topic at the moment. I think there have been articles in the last three New Scientists about it. :lol:

The Norks
20-06-2005, 17:28:46
Presumably the female orgasm originated because there has to be some reason to want to have sex. Otherwise whats the fun in letting some sweaty caveman stick his knob in your muffin?

I have a sexual dysfunction- I'm not getting enough. Although I did get some this morning. :D

Spartak
20-06-2005, 17:30:36
Some what? Socks?

Funko
20-06-2005, 17:31:11
Reproduction is the reason, it being fun is just a bonus.

Gary
20-06-2005, 17:35:28
Originally posted by The Norks
Otherwise whats the fun in letting some sweaty caveman stick his knob in your muffin?Possibly because having a sweaty cavemen on your side makes you feel protected :D

Beta1
20-06-2005, 17:57:13
Does you other half know he's a sweaty caveman?

It must be rather off putting having a your head in a large magnet.

DevilsH@lo
20-06-2005, 18:10:58
UGG (roughly translated yes)

(although the ugly caveman had to peel said lady off the bathroom floor last night where she decided it was a good idea to sleep, using a toilet roll as a pillow.)

Christoph
20-06-2005, 18:23:12
*faps*

Venom
20-06-2005, 18:28:58
Socks....check.

Provost Harrison
20-06-2005, 18:34:39
Originally posted by DevilsH@lo
UGG (roughly translated yes)

(although the ugly caveman had to peel said lady off the bathroom floor last night where she decided it was a good idea to sleep, using a toilet roll as a pillow.)

UGG? Isn't that a cimema chain? :p

Japher
20-06-2005, 18:38:42
nice socks...

http://www.corsets4less.com/Images/sm8662.jpg

mr.G
20-06-2005, 18:52:23
see socks are a great gift

The Norks
20-06-2005, 19:18:04
Originally posted by Funko
Reproduction is the reason, it being fun is just a bonus.

unbelievable tho it is, most women dont walk around thinking 'I want to breed!'

I would say thats a very obvious reason for a female orgasm- gratification drives most people, something random that happens 9 months later if you happen to be in the right two hours of the month, does not. Or at least I dont believe it did when we couldnt use language or plan things in our lotus calendars.

The Norks
20-06-2005, 19:20:17
Originally posted by Beta1
Does you other half know he's a sweaty caveman?

It must be rather off putting having a your head in a large magnet.

I wasnt referring specifically to him, but it would be disingenuous to suggest he is not a sweaty caveman (albeit a caveman in a uniform)

The Norks
20-06-2005, 19:21:16
Originally posted by DevilsH@lo
UGG (roughly translated yes)

(although the ugly caveman had to peel said lady off the bathroom floor last night where she decided it was a good idea to sleep, using a toilet roll as a pillow.)

I wondered why that toilet roll was squashed. :lol:

Funko
20-06-2005, 19:59:35
Originally posted by The Norks
unbelievable tho it is, most women dont walk around thinking 'I want to breed!'

I didn't say that?

Recent technological advances, especially in contraception, have totally changed the way society runs. There is clearly a biological imperitive in humans to breed, the fact we are here is proof enough of that but it's been proven again and again in many species. Modern humans are very unique in their society.

Originally posted by The Norks I would say thats a very obvious reason for a female orgasm- gratification drives most people, something random that happens 9 months later if you happen to be in the right two hours of the month, does not. Or at least I dont believe it did when we couldnt use language or plan things in our lotus calendars.

Yes, and that's been the generally accepted argument up until recently. The problem with that has always been, if that's true why do some women not orgasm during intercourse, and why can some women come from other forms of sex but not intercourse? It doesn't make sense if the point is just to make sex pleasurable so we want to reproduce.

There are also lots of other species who reproduce but don't have orgasms which is another fly in the ointment of that theory.

Here's the story from last week that explains a lot better than I can what I was trying to explain:

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/sex/mg18625033.900


btw. the original story about the socks; New Scientist has a more sensible story about it:

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7548

LoD
20-06-2005, 20:55:48
I think the Norks is dissing the article because she interpreted it as "women turn off their brain during orgasm" ;).

Seriously 'though, why is stating that women need to feel mentally comfortable to achieve orgasm is "total tripe"? Looks more like "NO SHIT!" to me...

Tizzy
20-06-2005, 21:04:47
Pointless Research into the Blindingly Obvious :lol:

The Norks
20-06-2005, 21:57:30
Originally posted by LoD
I think the Norks is dissing the article because she interpreted it as "women turn off their brain during orgasm" ;).

Seriously 'though, why is stating that women need to feel mentally comfortable to achieve orgasm is "total tripe"? Looks more like "NO SHIT!" to me...

not at all, I just think its bollocks to say that women need to feel protected during sex. Plenty of women get off on shagging strangers, dogging, swinging, bondage- all kinds of scenarios that dont involve traditional man-look-after-woman dynamics. I think its a very patronising assumption and I think its a wild extrapolation from what the 'research' looked at. Its an opinion in fact, its not a scientific result.

The Norks
20-06-2005, 22:07:42
Originally posted by Funko
Ithat's been the generally accepted argument up until recently. The problem with that has always been, if that's true why do some women not orgasm during intercourse, and why can some women come from other forms of sex but not intercourse? It doesn't make sense if the point is just to make sex pleasurable so we want to reproduce.

There are also lots of other species who reproduce but don't have orgasms which is another fly in the ointment of that theory.

Here's the story from last week that explains a lot better than I can what I was trying to explain:

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/sex/mg18625033.900


btw. the original story about the socks; New Scientist has a more sensible story about it:

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7548

I would say that the incentive of orgasm and what scientists technically term 'having the horn' is reason enough. Other animal species have scent and instinct at far more powerful levels than us so they probably dont need it. I've heard a lot of stuff about the 'types' of orgasms women can have, but in my fairly prolific experience, an orgasm is an orgasm is an orgasm. I think a lot of it is psychological with women because we're brought up not to touch things down there, not to say what we want in bed,and masturbation isnt accepted as it is for boys, add a bit of body paranoia, and porn envy into the mix and its not surprising women have orgasm issue. yes i am generalising but women have a totally different relationship with their bodies than men do.

DH tells me women have orgasms so that the sperm are drawn towards the womb, which makes sense biologically. But why do people laugh? that doesnt make evolutionary sense either- nature is weird

Cruddy
20-06-2005, 22:25:37
I would guess people laugh at orgasm because they are happy.

Either that or relief the experience is over.

Funko
21-06-2005, 09:00:39
Originally posted by The Norks
I would say that the incentive of orgasm and what scientists technically term 'having the horn' is reason enough. Other animal species have scent and instinct at far more powerful levels than us so they probably dont need it. I've heard a lot of stuff about the 'types' of orgasms women can have, but in my fairly prolific experience, an orgasm is an orgasm is an orgasm. I think a lot of it is psychological with women because we're brought up not to touch things down there, not to say what we want in bed,and masturbation isnt accepted as it is for boys, add a bit of body paranoia, and porn envy into the mix and its not surprising women have orgasm issue. yes i am generalising but women have a totally different relationship with their bodies than men do.

DH tells me women have orgasms so that the sperm are drawn towards the womb, which makes sense biologically. But why do people laugh? that doesnt make evolutionary sense either- nature is weird

Laugh? :hmm:

Yeah, those are both reasonable and common theories, but there's not much evidence either way to what's really happening or how it evolved. Plus there are a few things that don't neatly fall into place with the theory so scientists just want to get more evidence either way.

Nills Lagerbaak
21-06-2005, 09:40:23
Originally posted by Funko
Yeah, ignore the sock thing, typical bad science reporting.

The brain activity differences seem reasonable. I would have thought that being outside a normal safe environment would make orgasms more difficult but the underlying brain activity when they happen wouldn't be much different. That's speculation of course, this is one of those scientific experiments where the experimental technique is necessarily quite intrusive.

Research into orgasms has generally done for a few reasons, one is to help understand the physical and mental processes in the hope you can treat sexual disfunctions, another is because the female orgasm is a bit of a mystery. It seems to serve no useful purpose so why did it evolve? and thirdly how our brains work is generally something we know very little about and is worth investigating.

There are good reasons why the experiments were done, less good reasons why this is on the BBC website. There are many brain activity experiments conducted that don't get international media coverage, the media just knows that sex sells. :)

One (pretty good) theory is that the contractions help to retain sperm and increase the chance of germination

Funko
21-06-2005, 09:53:56
Yeah, that was always the commonly accepted theory.

The problem with that is (like I said later in the thread) you'd think if it gave some evolutionary advantage like that the ability to have orgasms during intercourse would be pretty much genetically universal across all women.

So that was the theory, that all women should be able to orgasm like that and it must be some social/psychological problem that meant they couldn't.

The latest research shows that it's actually most likely a genetic difference which casts doubt on any of the "to assist reproduction" arguments because if it did those genes would be stronger and the others would die out.

Nills Lagerbaak
21-06-2005, 09:56:31
Don't forget, if every evoloutionary trait had reached the pinnacle of it's development, that would in itself be an argument against evolution.
Also the female sexual liberation is relatively young, so the female sexual function has not had the same chance to develop as the mans.

Funko
21-06-2005, 10:14:02
I'm not saying anyone's right or wrong, no-one really knows, there are several very plausible theories and little evidence.

That's why people are researching it.

:beer:

Shining1
21-06-2005, 10:20:17
Pretty sure you'll find it's called 'Sex'. :p

Funko
21-06-2005, 10:25:06
I'm pretty sure it's called research. Maybe you're right and it is just a euphamism.

The Norks
21-06-2005, 11:44:12
Originally posted by Nills Lagerbaak
Don't forget, if every evoloutionary trait had reached the pinnacle of it's development, that would in itself be an argument against evolution.
Also the female sexual liberation is relatively young, so the female sexual function has not had the same chance to develop as the mans.

thats really not true- its only a relatively recent invention to suppress women's sexuality- Victorian in fact.

I don't think its genetic, or you'd see similar traits in men.

The Norks
21-06-2005, 11:46:03
Originally posted by Nills Lagerbaak
One (pretty good) theory is that the contractions help to retain sperm and increase the chance of germination

:lol: I know I'm being a pedant, but plants germinate!!! Unless I turned up at the wrong biology class :eek: Cor! look at the stamens on that!!

:D

Funko
21-06-2005, 11:46:04
Don't think what's genetic?

The Norks
21-06-2005, 11:47:23
Originally posted by Funko
Don't think what's genetic?

I don't think genetics explains why some women dont have orgasms. You would see the same or parallel traits in men if that were true.

MDA
21-06-2005, 11:52:30
Originally posted by Beta1

It must be rather off putting having a your head in a large magnet.

Please remove ALL jewelry. :eek:

Funko
21-06-2005, 11:53:48
That's not strictly true, men and women have different bits that evolve differently.

It's pretty logical. Men have to have orgasms to reproduce, it's the sperm delivery mechanism. If you can't orgasm you can't reproduce so that's would select out very fast.

That's not true with women. Even if the "helping the sperm" theory is true it's only an aid, it doesn't prevent women from reproducing.

Anyway, even if there wasn't a logical argument for it this latest research gives us evidence that it does seem to be genetic. :)

Nills Lagerbaak
21-06-2005, 12:01:43
Yeah, I think it's genetic. I also think it's some "as yet" developed super power that we are yet to witness.

God help us all! I told you dem wimmen wernt rite

(Oh and I know it's not germinate I just though it's be funny :D)

The Norks
21-06-2005, 12:09:06
I don't buy it, I don't see why women would have the largest sexual organ (the clitoris is actually about 8 inches long and has lots of fingers-oh yes) and so much variation, but men would have almost homegenous tackle. it doesnt make any sense. Sperm delivery or no. You see variations in every other bit of the human body. Surely the important thing is that sex is pleasurable for both- thats not true of other animals (although i dont know how many chimps have been invited to wank each other off in a giant magnotron). Humans have a very slow reproductive cycle and a short fertility period, so I would think that mother nature just wants people to get the horn all the time, and ultimately as you say the final orgasm isnt as essential for women as it is for men, but sexual excitement is.
Also- since so much of sexual behaviour happens in the brain, I would think that had more sway over women than actual genetic differences.
And- if you come from a 'repressed' family, it may look like genes but simply be upbringing. I just see too many variables. Although as you say it may be worth investigating.

its amazing to me that modern medicine is still prodding women about in an 'ooh what a mystery' fashion though, and still seems to know bugger all about the female body.

The Norks
21-06-2005, 12:11:18
Originally posted by Nills Lagerbaak
Yeah, I think it's genetic. I also think it's some "as yet" developed super power that we are yet to witness.

God help us all! I told you dem wimmen wernt rite

(Oh and I know it's not germinate I just though it's be funny :D)

we are hoping to all simultaneously ejaculate you off the planet one day :D

Its a bit like the Tom Cruise stunt, but on a grand scale

MDA
21-06-2005, 12:25:08
Men and women only have one chromosome that's different - the blueprints overlap. Maybe nature settled on "good enough" for one sex because the same gene was a significant improvement in sex drive/fitness in the other sex.

This is just a highbrow variation of the "why do men have nipples?" argument, isn't it? :)

Funko
21-06-2005, 12:30:12
Originally posted by The Norks
Than actual genetic differences.
And- if you come from a 'repressed' family, it may look like genes but simply be upbringing. I just see too many variables. Although as you say it may be worth investigating.

Well the point of science is to get real evidence to support peoples ideas like that. In a way it's good if it's genetic 'cause then people can stop making women feel like they are mentally fucked up or repressed if they don't have orgasms. :)

Originally posted by The Norks
its amazing to me that modern medicine is still prodding women about in an 'ooh what a mystery' fashion though, and still seems to know bugger all about the female body.

Or the male body. :D

MDA
21-06-2005, 12:33:04
Originally posted by Funko
Well the point of science is to get real evidence to support peoples ideas like that. In a way it's good if it's genetic 'cause then people can stop making women feel like they are mentally fucked up or repressed if they don't have orgasms. :)


Maybe you're just bad in bed? :p

The Norks
21-06-2005, 12:42:50
Originally posted by Funko
Well the point of science is to get real evidence to support peoples ideas like that. In a way it's good if it's genetic 'cause then people can stop making women feel like they are mentally fucked up or repressed if they don't have orgasms. :)



it also gives tacit permission to men to not bother trying in bed :)

Funko
21-06-2005, 12:46:40
Originally posted by MDA
Maybe you're just bad in bed? :p

:lol:

You'll have to ask Tizzy :cute:

Nills Lagerbaak
21-06-2005, 12:46:45
I don't know what this whole argument is about. I've never met a woman I couldn't....

Funko
21-06-2005, 12:47:17
Originally posted by The Norks
it also gives tacit permission to men to not bother trying in bed :)

Do or do not, there is no try. :hmm:

DevilsH@lo
21-06-2005, 12:49:33
Originally posted by Funko
That's not strictly true, men and women have different bits that evolve differently.

It's pretty logical. Men have to have orgasms to reproduce, it's the sperm delivery mechanism. If you can't orgasm you can't reproduce so that's would select out very fast.

That's not true with women. Even if the "helping the sperm" theory is true it's only an aid, it doesn't prevent women from reproducing.

Anyway, even if there wasn't a logical argument for it this latest research gives us evidence that it does seem to be genetic. :)

I didn't just throw that out as a comment plucked from thin air, who's the curly haired freakish spectacle wearing professor?? His life studies programme did an episode based around reproduction and for some reason he went into why women seem to concieve more readily during affairs than with regular sex with the partner, his conclusion was one of heightened arousal and a mental state which was more *conducive* to orgasm.

There were keyhole fibre optic camera's placed inside a womans body to show the internal operation of a woman during orgasm and the neck of the womb literally dips into the neck of the vagina. Thereby coating itself with aforementioned man milk. And purely due to proximity increasing the possibility of conception.

Looked like a pretty sound theory to me, as the only time this contraction occured was during orgasm. Buy the DVD it's all in there.

:bounce:

MDA
21-06-2005, 12:50:01
Those big, thick hunting socks - gray with the red heel and toe are fantastic.

They're comfortable, safe, and make me feel warm all the way to my toes.

Tizzy
21-06-2005, 12:51:57
Originally posted by Funko
:lol:

You'll have to ask Tizzy :cute:

I've already been informed that Venom will be hired to exterminate me if I comment on this issue.

DevilsH@lo
21-06-2005, 13:02:07
Professor lord Robert Winston.

That's the chap, the series was called The Human Body and this man is widely considered the foremost expert on human fertility, so on this occasion im not gonna argue with him. Although Asher probably would because he like I believe's IBM are complete SHIT!. :D

I just read up some stuff about this bloke, and besides being a TV personality, he is as clever as fuck!

Funko
21-06-2005, 13:22:33
Yeah, I know. As I've said several times in this thread, that is one of the best current theories and that's part of why this new research is a bit of a "huh? that's not what we've expected".

As you've said the mechanism is there for it to assist things and that all makes sense. What's not there is the evidence that women who orgasm are more fertile - which is what you'd expect.


Also, what you'd predict from that theory is that there is no biological reason that women could have orgasms and there must be some non-biological reason why they couldn't. If the ability to have orgasms is genetic, as this new research suggests, then that means that that theory has a lot of questions to answer that it can't currently.

Re: Your program, this new research is less than a week old, too new for him to have included it in that program. I'm sure he'd find it interesting. It might be that the research isn't reproducible (sorry for the pun) or there's another explanation etc.

We're all free to have our view of what the best theory is based on the evidence but I don't think there's enough evidence for anyone to be certain yet.

The Norks
21-06-2005, 16:16:24
I think all women can have an orgasm, it just takes different strokes for different folks.

Ultimately I think you would have to have a wide ontrol group of say 1000-2000 women from varied backgrounds and study them from say age 16 to age 60 to make a real assessment, and that ain't never gonna happen.

King_Ghidra
21-06-2005, 16:29:24
Originally posted by Funko
(sorry for the pun)

you should probably just make this your sig to avoid RSI

Funko
21-06-2005, 16:41:18
Originally posted by The Norks
I think

= not science

:)

The Norks
21-06-2005, 17:44:24
socks= not science

Tizzy
21-06-2005, 19:26:06
Originally posted by The Norks
I've heard a lot of stuff about the 'types' of orgasms women can have, but in my fairly prolific experience, an orgasm is an orgasm is an orgasm.

I have to disagree. A G-spot orgasm (yes boys, they do exist, it's not a myth) is very different to a clitoral one.
Why the clitoral orgasm is more "foolproof" I have no idea but it is usually quicker for one thing, which may be something to do with the problem some women have with orgasms during intercourse.
If the position isn't quite right to stimulate the clitoris, it could take much longer for the G-spot to "wake up", by which time it could all be over, or everyone could be bored :D

Venom
21-06-2005, 19:33:41
Originally posted by Tizzy
I've already been informed that Venom will be hired to exterminate me if I comment on this issue.

God damn right.

Tizzy
21-06-2005, 19:40:45
Therefore, no comment.

mr.G
21-06-2005, 20:05:51
Originally posted by Tizzy
I have to disagree. A mrG-spot orgasm (yes boys, they do exist, it's not a myth) is very different to a clitoral one.
Why the clitoral orgasm is more "foolproof" I have no idea but it is usually quicker for one thing, which may be something to do with the problem some women have with orgasms during intercourse.
If the position isn't quite right to stimulate the clitoris, it could take much longer for the mrG-spot to "wake up", by which time it could all be over, or everyone could be bored :D


God damn right.

MDA
21-06-2005, 21:58:19
Look at that, you woke up and posted 25 minutes too late.

The Norks
21-06-2005, 22:07:24
Originally posted by Tizzy
I have to disagree. A G-spot orgasm (yes boys, they do exist, it's not a myth) is very different to a clitoral one.
Why the clitoral orgasm is more "foolproof" I have no idea but it is usually quicker for one thing, which may be something to do with the problem some women have with orgasms during intercourse.
If the position isn't quite right to stimulate the clitoris, it could take much longer for the G-spot to "wake up", by which time it could all be over, or everyone could be bored :D

well I think there's a subtle difference, probably because of the bit thats getting stimulated, but what I mean is that they dont feel incredibly different. Its not like your head pops off one one, and your feet on the other. Either way, its an orgasm.

Funko
22-06-2005, 10:03:40
Originally posted by The Norks
Its not like your head pops off one one, and your feet on the other

If it was like that it would be a bit disturbing!