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The Norks
09-06-2005, 15:00:13
so....my manager has decided to give me a disciplinary hearing for my timekeeping. WHile he is right on some things he has said, ie I've been in after (not much after) my 10.00 deadline sometimes, its also true that he is essentially manipulating the statistics on some of his other points (of which there are four). Luckily for me they haven't pulled up my net stats and email records :cute:

However...

I went to HR last week to sound them out because since starting working for him, he has behaved unreasonably towards me on several occasions, and basically I feel he's been bullying me, which has contributed to, if not directly caused my dread of going in. On top of that, I feel he has been extremely negligent in his managerial duties and hasnt provided me with enough to do, and for this year has not carried out any reviews of my expectations plan (goals) or set new ones which are supposed to be done every quarter.

I have been advised many different things- some say resign now and run while you can, some say go to the hearing and make a case, but I've been advised by an HR manager (from another company) that if I lodge a formal grievance now and they sack me, I can have them for constructive dismissal, and that companies are very scared of grievance procedures as usually they will ask you to resign and then pay you off.

I really don't know what to do- does anyone know anything about this or have any constructive advice? I don't have long to sort it out.

protein
09-06-2005, 15:07:51
Start turning up on time?

Or kill them all with a sharpened spade?

MOBIUS
09-06-2005, 15:07:54
Don't know, not been there myself but it does sound like you either get another job or file a complaint.

Personally I would prefer the complaint route as that should cover your bases.

Venom
09-06-2005, 15:08:48
Definitely shoot the place up. That'll teach 'em.

Lurker the Second
09-06-2005, 15:13:38
If you have sex with the guy, it will probably help your review. Unless it's really, really, really bad sex or he gets a disease.

mr.G
09-06-2005, 15:14:05
fart and then kick a pigeon

Venom
09-06-2005, 15:14:50
Originally posted by Lurker the Second
If you have sex with the guy, it will probably help your review. Unless it's really, really, really bad sex or he gets a disease.

But then she can get him fired for taking advantage of her.

The Norks
09-06-2005, 15:16:01
Originally posted by protein
Start turning up on time?

Or kill them all with a sharpened spade?

mostly its been like 2 minutes over 10.00, apart from a very few occasions. However, when you dread going into work every day and you cant find anything outside thats basically what happens. If you're me anyway.

MOBIUS
09-06-2005, 15:17:21
Yeah but right now you're providing him with all the ammunition he needs.

Either file a complaint, turn up on time - or leave before you're pushed.

The Norks
09-06-2005, 15:20:14
yes i agree i've shot myself in the foot with that, its too late for turning up on time now.

Filing a complaint, if nothing else, will piss him off and cause him hassle.

Funko
09-06-2005, 15:21:04
Originally posted by The Norks
its too late for turning up on time now.

:lol:



Sorry, that was funny. I don't have any useful advice I'm afraid.

MOBIUS
09-06-2005, 15:23:35
:lol:

(sorry but that was funny!)

If he has a record of your timekeeping since you started working for him you can show that your lateness only started since then, so you can still use it to your advantage by proving he was a direct reason for it - assuming you had good timekeeping up until that point...

The Norks
09-06-2005, 15:23:45
grrrrrrreat.

Spartak
09-06-2005, 19:35:07
Unless you have had a formal warning already he can't sack you for being a couple of minutes late and any action taken has to be proportionate to the severity of the offense and the amount of warning you have recieved. So, for example, if you slap yoyur boss without a good reason its gross professional misconduct and your boss has the right to sack you. If you call him a knob or somesuch after he has behaved basdly to you it would be totally out of order for him to sack you. Essentially, a lack of punctuality is not a sackable offense unless, a) you have been warned repeatedly and done nothing about it and b) its business critical and you know it.

If you have not already been formally warned (i.e as part of your disciplinary process) your worse case scenario should be either a written or oral warning. Also your boss has to ensure that he does not reat you differently to any other employer and, for example, he disciplines you while ignoring similiar or worse behaviour in others.

I don't know what kind of work you do but for gods sake go and join a union tomorrow for professional advice if nothing else, eben if they don't have negotiating rights. They can also represent you in your subsequent ET. Start documenting now to strengthen your case later.

PM me if you would like more personalised advice. Also look at the ACAS website for the national "best practise" for dealing with disciplinary and grievence procedures.

My Union experience has been based in the civil service, I don't know if Laz would want to contribute something from the private industry perspective.

Spartak
09-06-2005, 19:36:50
ACAS - http://www.acas.org.uk
The actual bit you need - http://www.acas.org.uk/rights/discipline.html

Japher
09-06-2005, 19:45:44
My boss is doing the same thing.

I have started coming in an hour earlier, and leaving an hour early, since our times didn't correspond.

I have started logging my accomplishments, and meet with him each week to go over what it is I will have accomplished by the next week and have him agree to it, sign it, and give him a copy keeping a copy for myself.

I have started speaking with employee assistance progam personnel who hear my greivances and will take action on my behalf if they feel anything unfair happens.

My boss is being a prick mainly because our department is about to fold. If there aren't firings by the end of the year there will most certainly be lay offs. He knows this and is running scared like half of the other ppl in this department.

He hasn't been a good boss ever, but now he is just being an ass.

Japher
09-06-2005, 19:49:35
oh, and I'm looking for another job

Japher
09-06-2005, 19:53:39
Also, I know that my boss has his boss coming down on him for my boss' shortcoming. So, my boss needs to blame me so that he doesn't look as incompitent as he is.

And, the same thing is happening to his boss, who is the real idiot to blame.

Thus, because my boss' boss f'd up my boss is getting reamed so he is reaming me... and I have no one to pass the buck to.

corporate BS

Spartak
09-06-2005, 19:56:20
Bosses suck.





oh shit, I'm a boss...

Japher
09-06-2005, 19:59:11
start sucking!

MDA
09-06-2005, 20:01:41
My current boss has been great. I've had some real wankers and wankettes though.

Best advice is to do your job as best you can (and you CAN show up on time), and smile and be nice even when you don't mean it.

You can do that without taking other people's shit. Its a pain, but it can be done.

I love my job

Lazarus and the Gimp
09-06-2005, 20:48:28
Spartak's advice is broadly applicable to private business as well (though it can break down with very small companies). However I get the impression this isn't a small outfit.

Turning up for work late a few times is not a sacking offence (unless you're an air-traffic controller or something). However it's pretty clear-cut- if they want to invoke lesser disciplinary issues they can. What you ned to demonstrate is a willingness to submit to a period of review and demonstrate improvement on this score. If that happens, it can't hang around forever.

Tough though it may be, your best bet right now is to show willingness to improve on all oints raised. Having said that, you definitely need to get it documented that your boss is not carrying out his reviews and duties toward you. And join the union right now.

Spartak
09-06-2005, 21:07:25
Most warning should expire after 6-12 months dependimg on the severity of the warning.

Chris
09-06-2005, 21:08:24
Get nekkid.

It won't help your problem, but then, it won't hurt it either.

Japher
09-06-2005, 21:11:20
Chris, I like the way you think... it's scary, but I like it

Chris
09-06-2005, 21:25:56
Getting nekkid is always a viable solution.

Japher
09-06-2005, 21:27:15
Chris' Motto:

When in doubt, shed your clothes.

BigGameHunter
09-06-2005, 21:43:55
1) Go into his office and tear your blouse and run out crying.

2) Sexual gratuities.

3) Feign a fall that puts your company in a position of liability (someone's left some clutter on the floor type thing) and then have a leisurely job hunt at their expense while you're out on disability.

4) Show us your norks.

I'm a boss and the worst "skill" I have is "counselling" my employees. Had to do it with a Team Leader (hourly supervisor) this morning and I cringed at some of the cliche shit that came out of my mouth.
I'm sure I've inspired him to dizzying heights, but the truth is that I inherited him, he has the charisma and leadership skills of a house plant and I have someone on the bench I want in his place. So I'm starting him on an ambiguous performance improvement path and sending my sub manager (who is the firing equivalent of a hockey goon) after him. *sigh* "Out, out, damn spot!".

See...bosses dooooooooooooo suck!

Japher
09-06-2005, 21:45:53
Yeah, pull a Fight Club

When he beat himself up in his boss' office that was classic.

BigGameHunter
09-06-2005, 21:49:10
Yeah, all you have to do is fuck yourself!

The Norks
09-06-2005, 22:03:28
Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
Spartak's advice is broadly applicable to private business as well (though it can break down with very small companies). However I get the impression this isn't a small outfit.

Turning up for work late a few times is not a sacking offence (unless you're an air-traffic controller or something). However it's pretty clear-cut- if they want to invoke lesser disciplinary issues they can. What you ned to demonstrate is a willingness to submit to a period of review and demonstrate improvement on this score. If that happens, it can't hang around forever.

Tough though it may be, your best bet right now is to show willingness to improve on all oints raised. Having said that, you definitely need to get it documented that your boss is not carrying out his reviews and duties toward you. And join the union right now.

Cheers Laz and Spartak

Basically he's listed 30 occasions where I've come in after 10.00 (which is the latest I can be in) however- of those 30, most were like 2 minutes or 4 minutes after, so he is being extremely pedantic, and the others I suspect were times when I have verbally agreed with him that I would be later due to a doctors appointment/parcel delivery etc. There are probaly 3 or 4 genuine late ones where I've got in at 10.15, which is dumb, but when you dread going in every day thi is what happens.

also, he has added up my core hours and even though he's been very happy to let me work through lunch, not use the hours database, and every time I have asked if he's happy with my core hours he's said yes, he is now saying I am 6.5 days behind in my hours, and that I cannot include lunch hours which is how he has got that figure. Legally I now thats true, but as I say he was saying it was ok (He has also been very happy to let me take tenders home to be picked up from my house which in my view means still working).

HE's said that I have done this sytematically to coincide with days when he is not in or in meetings, which is bollocks, and amusingly egotistical, and he also said that I had ignored one of my first quarter goals which was to be in by nine as he feels (wrongly) that we are a customer service and we should show at 9 (I literally sit on my own all day and receive maybe three calls a day as most of my work is paperwork). Now I disputed this issue with him because of my living arrangement with DH (too complicated to explain here) I felt I couldnt commit to being at 9 every day, and I am on a flexi contract so I dont see how they can ask me to be in at 9 anyhow (although they do have managers final say so clause). He said that was ok, although I said I would come in at 9 when I could, and he said his boss was more worried about it than him.

I could go into all the harassment stuff, but lets say that my report, our meetings, his emails etc, continuously focus on what he perceives as my personality flaws, and never on my performance. One of his favourites is to get me into a meeting then attack me. I had to have a meeting with him where I had to ask him to stop sending me personal attacks via email. The other side of it is that he is totally negligent and hasnt reviewed my goals every quarter as he should, doesnt find/set work for me, ecept very rarely and usually at a very low level. He has given me no department strategy, no job spec, has deferred a regrading of my job repeatedly that he has acknowledged I need..blah blah blah. Even with this process he has been trying to shit me up by not telling me what the outcomes could be, not telling me what form it will take, etc.

I'm thinking I can maybe broker a deal and say to HR, I want to leave, he wants me gone, none of us want a disciplinary or a harassment suit, or at worst constructive dismissal, so why dont you give me a good reference and 4 weeks gardening leave, and we can all go home now. Alternatively I could just file a complaint, hand in my notice, fuck off, and then get a friend to fake a reference :)

Would that work? I work for a big american corporate manufacturer. Not sure about the idea that he and the HR lady will decide my fate- that cant be right surely? My Aunt works with Unions and stuff, and she said he should present his evidence and I should do mine, and it should be decided by neutral people.

What sticks in the craw more than anything for me is that I have tried time and again to make this job work, to raise his interest, to get some responsibility and some real remit, and I've put loads into the job, but this is what I get. And yes I'm annoyed at giving him the ammunition to shoot me.

sigh.... :rolleyes:

The Norks
09-06-2005, 22:13:30
Originally posted by BigGameHunter
1) Go into his office and tear your blouse and run out crying.

2) Sexual gratuities.

3) Feign a fall that puts your company in a position of liability (someone's left some clutter on the floor type thing) and then have a leisurely job hunt at their expense while you're out on disability.

4) Show us your norks.

I'm a boss and the worst "skill" I have is "counselling" my employees. Had to do it with a Team Leader (hourly supervisor) this morning and I cringed at some of the cliche shit that came out of my mouth.
I'm sure I've inspired him to dizzying heights, but the truth is that I inherited him, he has the charisma and leadership skills of a house plant and I have someone on the bench I want in his place. So I'm starting him on an ambiguous performance improvement path and sending my sub manager (who is the firing equivalent of a hockey goon) after him. *sigh* "Out, out, damn spot!".

See...bosses dooooooooooooo suck!

difference is, I'm good at my job and everyone likes me except him (and his boss).

Trust me if I have to go the grievance/complaint/harassment route, however I do it, I'm playing dirty. I can do tears, sleepless nights and fear.

Mud sticks. If I'm going down, he's coming down with me.

Spartak
09-06-2005, 22:36:10
Nothing he has there adds up to the sack. I'd ask at the interview why other people weren't being treated similarly. I'd also take my own independant witness. The fact that its just your boss and a HR drone means it can only be a warning because anything else has to be decided by a senior manager who is independant.

Frankly you are setting your sighst too low if you think 4 weeks gardening leave is anywhere near enough compensation.

BigGameHunter
09-06-2005, 22:46:45
You're going down?
Is there a line?

The Norks
09-06-2005, 22:51:54
Originally posted by Spartak
Nothing he has there adds up to the sack. I'd ask at the interview why other people weren't being treated similarly. I'd also take my own independant witness. The fact that its just your boss and a HR drone means it can only be a warning because anything else has to be decided by a senior manager who is independant.

Frankly you are setting your sighst too low if you think 4 weeks gardening leave is anywhere near enough compensation.

can we talk on PM? I have a feeling you may have some good advice... I'd really like your opinion on what I should do If you have time. Also- I know nothing about what union to join, can you recommend anyone?

BigGameHunter
09-06-2005, 22:54:38
The Strings Free Sex With Horny Americans Union?

SFSWHAU Unite!

The Norks
09-06-2005, 23:01:05
only if oerdin joins up :D

*tee hee* ;-)

BigGameHunter
10-06-2005, 02:16:02
Why you fickle little so and so!

jsorense
10-06-2005, 03:37:13
Flirts, can't live with them, but oh, isn't it fun.:coolgrin:

Cruddy
10-06-2005, 03:46:32
Originally posted by The Norks
so....my manager has decided to give me a disciplinary hearing for my timekeeping. WHile he is right on some things he has said, ie I've been in after (not much after) my 10.00 deadline sometimes, its also true that he is essentially manipulating the statistics on some of his other points (of which there are four). Luckily for me they haven't pulled up my net stats and email records :cute:

However...

I went to HR last week to sound them out because since starting working for him, he has behaved unreasonably towards me on several occasions, and basically I feel he's been bullying me, which has contributed to, if not directly caused my dread of going in. On top of that, I feel he has been extremely negligent in his managerial duties and hasnt provided me with enough to do, and for this year has not carried out any reviews of my expectations plan (goals) or set new ones which are supposed to be done every quarter.

I have been advised many different things- some say resign now and run while you can, some say go to the hearing and make a case, but I've been advised by an HR manager (from another company) that if I lodge a formal grievance now and they sack me, I can have them for constructive dismissal, and that companies are very scared of grievance procedures as usually they will ask you to resign and then pay you off.

I really don't know what to do- does anyone know anything about this or have any constructive advice? I don't have long to sort it out.

Just a thought... perhaps your behaviour and thoughts are subconciously motivated by the desire your boss will be driven to spread you over his desk and buttfuck you?

Spartak
10-06-2005, 06:17:40
Originally posted by The Norks
can we talk on PM? I have a feeling you may have some good advice... I'd really like your opinion on what I should do If you have time. Also- I know nothing about what union to join, can you recommend anyone? Yes, PM me.

mr.G
10-06-2005, 08:14:21
get a broom

The Higgelhoff
10-06-2005, 08:22:13
Get a vroooom

Spartak
10-06-2005, 17:29:36
Have you had your meeting yet?

mr.G
10-06-2005, 17:30:12
get a broom

Chris
10-06-2005, 20:38:54
Sparky for good advice..one of the 7 signs the end is near...

Spartak
10-06-2005, 23:34:39
:p You have mail Norks

protein
10-06-2005, 23:37:29
I think deep down, if you dread going into work you really should quit. Fuck them. It's only a job and they are making you miserable.

Quit and go on holiday. That's what I always seem to do.

Spartak
11-06-2005, 00:02:06
Do you have a mortgage?

protein
11-06-2005, 00:04:41
God no. I wouldn't be able to be free then. I'm living like a rock and roll hermit right now and I'm off to India in December. If I had a mortgage that wouldn't be an option, I'd be dressed in a suit every day and thoroughly miserable.

Spartak
11-06-2005, 06:55:57
Ah. I'm working today. I like my work.

Provost Harrison
11-06-2005, 13:38:24
Sounds like they've got you on their hit list and they want you out now, they see you as problematic. I'd look for a new job.

Did you ever hear about my Novartis business? Now unfortunately I was on an agency contract so I had absolutely no comeback against them (although if I had a tape recorder in the meeting I could have done). I had been working at Novartis Grimsby for about 7 weeks (I will name names, I have no reason to protect any of those arseholes from anything) and the training manager, Colin Chapman wanted to have a meeting with me about how I was getting on. Seemed rather odd, plus I'd recently had a meeting with my manager after the first month where she'd been praiseful, although she'd expressed concerns as to how I was fitting in (never, ever been a problem anywhere else) and I said that my workload was rather low and unchallenging at the moment (in a more tactful way than that however ;))

So anyway, I went to this meeting with the training manager and he was very personal and unpleasant with me, saying I was carrying baggage, had major personality flaws and that other people didn't like me with no evidence whatsoever and that I'd 'ruffled a few feathers' - also bear in mind I was still on prozac and propranalol for anxiety and depression. Absolutely devastating for me at that point.

I ended up taking the next morning off sick because of how distraught I was over this situation and needed time to think...I couldn't quit because then I couldn't claim JSA. So I went in and my manager seemed quite apologetic and said it really wasn't meant to happen by this. Of course by this point I knew the writing was on the wall - I'd got 'enemies in high places', I was going to start looking for new jobs that weekend.

The day after that (the Thursday, this 'meeting' was on the Tuesday) I went to work as per usual. In the afternoon all the managers had a meeting in the room next door. After this, my manager and this training manager called me into the office. They stated they were terminating the contract effective immediately and they would pay me until the end of the year (about 6 weeks). When I asked on what ground, they stated that they had recorded I had been about 3 minutes late on one occasion (which my manager was aware off and I'd explained why!). And that was that. The agency said they'd investigate and they never did...

The Norks
11-06-2005, 16:38:22
Originally posted by protein
I think deep down, if you dread going into work you really should quit. Fuck them. It's only a job and they are making you miserable.

Quit and go on holiday. That's what I always seem to do.

I'm Scottish. Scots don't quit.

Besides, I think I have a good case for getting them to pay me off.

The Norks
11-06-2005, 16:45:19
Originally posted by Provost Harrison
Sounds like they've got you on their hit list and they want you out now, they see you as problematic. I'd look for a new job.

Did you ever hear about my Novartis business? Now unfortunately I was on an agency contract so I had absolutely no comeback against them (although if I had a tape recorder in the meeting I could have done). I had been working at Novartis Grimsby for about 7 weeks (I will name names, I have no reason to protect any of those arseholes from anything) and the training manager, Colin Chapman wanted to have a meeting with me about how I was getting on. Seemed rather odd, plus I'd recently had a meeting with my manager after the first month where she'd been praiseful, although she'd expressed concerns as to how I was fitting in (never, ever been a problem anywhere else) and I said that my workload was rather low and unchallenging at the moment (in a more tactful way than that however ;))

So anyway, I went to this meeting with the training manager and he was very personal and unpleasant with me, saying I was carrying baggage, had major personality flaws and that other people didn't like me with no evidence whatsoever and that I'd 'ruffled a few feathers' - also bear in mind I was still on prozac and propranalol for anxiety and depression. Absolutely devastating for me at that point.

I ended up taking the next morning off sick because of how distraught I was over this situation and needed time to think...I couldn't quit because then I couldn't claim JSA. So I went in and my manager seemed quite apologetic and said it really wasn't meant to happen by this. Of course by this point I knew the writing was on the wall - I'd got 'enemies in high places', I was going to start looking for new jobs that weekend.

The day after that (the Thursday, this 'meeting' was on the Tuesday) I went to work as per usual. In the afternoon all the managers had a meeting in the room next door. After this, my manager and this training manager called me into the office. They stated they were terminating the contract effective immediately and they would pay me until the end of the year (about 6 weeks). When I asked on what ground, they stated that they had recorded I had been about 3 minutes late on one occasion (which my manager was aware off and I'd explained why!). And that was that. The agency said they'd investigate and they never did...

workplace harassment is what that was, and I don't believe its any more legal to harass a contractor than a full time employee.

Unfortunately for my company, I am permanent and I have been saving bossman's emails for just such an occasion. I spoke to a solicitor and he said I had a good case.

Even if I get fired and they give me nothing I can get a friend to fake a reference, so its worth my time to pursue it I think.

I can't just quit either, although I have considered it. Firstly because if I can get some money from them I need to do that in order to keep a roof over my head, and secondly because it will allow them to think they can do this to some other poor sod.

Spartak
11-06-2005, 19:11:41
I'm sure my big brother (a formerly a poster here) told me that its illeagl or at leave very unwise for a company to give abad reference for anyone for any reason.

Spartak
11-06-2005, 23:46:03
Originally posted by Chris
Sparky for good advice..one of the 7 signs the end is near... :hmm: Miracles never cease.

Nav
12-06-2005, 10:04:17
I would definately start looking for a new job. However don't be too obvious about it, and definately try and get evening interviews if possible (you don't want them to give them another reason to get rid of you!) Would be much better to just leave for a new job than to go through a messy, stressful grievance procedure.

Lazarus and the Gimp
12-06-2005, 10:18:07
Originally posted by Spartak
I'm sure my big brother (a formerly a poster here) told me that its illeagl or at leave very unwise for a company to give abad reference for anyone for any reason.

That's true- as far as the "unwise" bit goes. Any statement of opinion can be legitimately challenged, though statements of fact can remain. That means the reference could still state "Reason for leaving- termination of contract", which is becoming the commo euphemism for "sacked", but is vague enough to cover redundancy too.

notyoueither
12-06-2005, 10:28:46
Originally posted by Japher
My boss is doing the same thing.

I have started coming in an hour earlier, and leaving an hour early, since our times didn't correspond.

I have started logging my accomplishments, and meet with him each week to go over what it is I will have accomplished by the next week and have him agree to it, sign it, and give him a copy keeping a copy for myself.

I have started speaking with employee assistance progam personnel who hear my greivances and will take action on my behalf if they feel anything unfair happens.

My boss is being a prick mainly because our department is about to fold. If there aren't firings by the end of the year there will most certainly be lay offs. He knows this and is running scared like half of the other ppl in this department.

He hasn't been a good boss ever, but now he is just being an ass.

You're asking him to do all that work, and he's being an ass?

The Norks
12-06-2005, 11:02:06
Originally posted by Nav
I would definately start looking for a new job. However don't be too obvious about it, and definately try and get evening interviews if possible (you don't want them to give them another reason to get rid of you!) Would be much better to just leave for a new job than to go through a messy, stressful grievance procedure.

its way too late for that. Why should I leave with a disciplinary against me and let him get off scot free? fuck that.

The Norks
12-06-2005, 11:06:10
btw I was already looking for a new job, so I feel it says something about my boss that even though I've told him I'm leaving, he decides to pull this anyway. He's an idiot.