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sleeping_satsuma
08-05-2005, 13:39:30
just thought I'd mention it...

Chris
08-05-2005, 14:22:46
Yes it is.

Spartak
08-05-2005, 17:41:35
Isn't it about time we let it go?

Asher
08-05-2005, 18:12:58
From the BBC comments page:

I was only six when war ended but I remember my father giving me a banana, my first, and I did not like it
Noel Meredith, Merthyr Tydfil, Wales
...

notyoueither
08-05-2005, 19:24:23
Originally posted by Spartak
Isn't it about time we let it go?

Not as long as many of the vets are still alive.

Spartak
08-05-2005, 20:18:22
Bearing in mind 60 years have passed, I'm sure we can find something else to remember and thank the vets for in that time.

Actually, I'm not against recognising those who fought and died in the war but it well beyond time that the UK stopped measuring itself against 60 year old victories and grew up in our approach to Germany and other axis powers.

Vincent
08-05-2005, 21:34:12
What victory?

OldWarrior_42
09-05-2005, 08:35:30
:lol:

notyoueither
09-05-2005, 09:08:06
Originally posted by Spartak
Bearing in mind 60 years have passed, I'm sure we can find something else to remember and thank the vets for in that time.

Actually, I'm not against recognising those who fought and died in the war but it well beyond time that the UK stopped measuring itself against 60 year old victories and grew up in our approach to Germany and other axis powers.

Strange, I'd heard that there were some commemorations in Germany too.

Lazarus and the Gimp
09-05-2005, 09:09:56
It's worth remembering.

And it's Ellen's birthday, to.

Gary
09-05-2005, 09:49:23
I think that's the crunch, it's ok while folk who were involved are still with us, but it needs to fade away afterwards, or we'll all become like the Irish, recalling past battles from over 300 years ago and marching in the streets in commemorate it.

Venom
09-05-2005, 13:13:58
Trying to forget it is childish. It's something that needs to be remembered.

MOBIUS
09-05-2005, 13:17:48
"Lest we forget"

Fergus & The Brazen Car
09-05-2005, 13:28:38
Originally posted by Gary
I think that's the crunch, it's ok while folk who were involved are still with us, but it needs to fade away afterwards, or we'll all become like the Irish, recalling past battles from over 300 years ago and marching in the streets in commemorate it.


Yeah. 'Cos like only the Irish would do that.


Oh, what do the Brits commemorate on November 5th this year by the way ?


Aaahhh, a 400 year old attempt to blow up Parliament.

Chairman Yang
09-05-2005, 13:30:36
That's Great Patriotic War Victory day to you!

zmama
09-05-2005, 13:58:38
Forgetting is foolish

Dyl Ulenspiegel
09-05-2005, 13:59:37
Some people here still can't get over 1683. Not to mention 488.

Drekkus
09-05-2005, 13:59:49
Originally posted by Chairman Yang
That's Great Patriotic War Victory day to you! Is that what the swedes call it?

MDA
09-05-2005, 14:08:55
Originally posted by zmama
Forgetting is foolish

and to be fair, so is beating a dead horse - but I don't think we're there yet.

Besides, the surviving veterans are interesting people.

zmama
09-05-2005, 14:15:44
Yes, my father's oldest brother was part of a force that liberated a death camp. Before the war, I was told, he was a gregarious sunny fellow...after, he hardly spoke at all. And never about what he did.

Gary
09-05-2005, 14:55:29
Aaahhh, a 400 year old attempt to blow up Parliament.Nothing like the same thing, totally incomparable. No one is commemorating blowing up parliament, just engaging in a traditional bonfire / firework night. Similar can hardly be said of the traditional 'rubbing the noses in it' activities that go on, on the other island.

Fergus & The Brazen Car
09-05-2005, 14:59:50
Originally posted by Gary


thing, . No one is commemorating blowing up parliament, just engaging in a traditional bonfire / firework night. Similar can hardly be said of the traditional 'rubbing the noses in it' activities that go on, on the other island.


A tradition that dates from the attempted blowing up of Parliament !

And features a guy, named after Guido Fawkes, one of the conspirators. And if you're referring to the Battle of the Boyne, and Orange Day parades, the people you're referring to are British citizens.


Good grief, what did they teach you about history ?

Gary
09-05-2005, 15:07:51
Despite the barbed remark, what exactly are you disputing ?

It's of total irrelevance what occurred prior to Bonfire night to start it off as no one is fussed why it happens each year.

Folk born in Ireland are Irish regardless whose citizens they are.

Those parades are and example yes, and the passion that surrounds it all.

Is this innocently stated fact some sort of sore point for you ? Apologies if it is.

Fergus & The Brazen Car
09-05-2005, 15:16:27
Originally posted by Gary
Despite the barbed remark, what exactly are you disputing ?

It's of total irrelevance what occurred prior to Bonfire night to start it off as no one is fussed why it happens each year.

Folk born in Ireland are Irish regardless whose citizens they are.

Those parades are and example yes, and the passion that surrounds it all.

Is this innocently stated fact some sort of sore point for you ? Apologies if it is.



No innocent facts aren't a sore point, even when as in your case, they're errors and not 'facts'.


I suggest you try telling Ian Paisley he's Irish, for instance.

" We will work with the Government to provide the maximum accountability in these circumstances and attempt to integrate Northern Ireland more firmly within the United Kingdom. "

http://www.dup.org.uk/


For some reason, they seem to think they're British, not Irish.


As for why we celebrate November 5th, let's see what a quick internet search reveals:

" On the night of November 5th,
throughout Britain,
bonfires are set alight, effigies are burned,
and fireworks are set off.
The people do this to commemorate
their country's
most notorious traitor:

Guy Fawkes! "

http://www.bonefire.org/guy


Well that seems fairly clear...


Let's try another site:

" In 1605, Guy Fawkes and a group of conspirators attempted to blow up the Houses of Parliament. Before they were able to carry out their plan they were caught, tortured and executed.

Every year since then we have traditionally celebrated his failure by letting off fireworks and burning an effigy of 'Guy'. "

http://www.guy-fawkes.com/


I think a clear picture is forming....

Gary
09-05-2005, 15:34:48
No innocent facts aren't a sore point, even when as in your case, they're errors and not 'facts'.

Feel free to show how the Irish don't keep commemorating ancient history then.

I suggest you try telling Ian Paisley he's Irish

I've never looked up where Ian was born but I suspect he's Irish whether he wants to agree or not.

We will work with the Government to provide the maximum accountability in these circumstances and attempt to integrate Northern Ireland more firmly within the United Kingdom.

And how does that stop him being Irish ?

http://www.dup.org.uk/

Can't be arsed to look up links on something this stupid. In fact I'm questioning why I'm responding since this is seems to be some kind of troll, although I can't think why you want to.


For some reason, they seem to think they're British, not Irish.

It matters little what they think. Which island were they born in ? Which country ?


As for why we celebrate November 5th, let's see what a quick internet search reveals:

" On the night of November 5th,
throughout Britain,
bonfires are set alight, effigies are burned,
and fireworks are set off.
The people do this to commemorate
their country's
most notorious traitor:

Guy Fawkes! "

http://www.bonefire.org/guy

Try not to get too caught up with someone's historic description. Go talk to real people, the public that join in. That's what I mean, to some history seem more important than present day reality.

" In 1605, Guy Fawkes and a group of conspirators attempted to blow up the Houses of Parliament. Before they were able to carry out their plan they were caught, tortured and executed.

Every year since then we have traditionally celebrated his failure by letting off fireworks and burning an effigy of 'Guy'. "

ditto

http://www.guy-fawkes.com/


I think a clear picture is forming....

Indeed, I think I'll rest my case. You stick to the ancient history, I'll live in the present.

Fergus & The Brazen Car
09-05-2005, 15:52:10
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gary
It matters little what they think. Which island were they born in ? Which country ?[

QUOTE]


I'm suspecting that Ian Paisley, being a British citizen, like other British citizens in Northern Ireland, has a British passport, by virtue of being born in Northern Ireland, which is a part of the United Kingdom, and not the Republic of Ireland. Also known as Eire, by the way. Which is a different country from the one that celebrates Guy Fawkes Night and V.E. Day.


Boyohboy, did you miss out on that whole bit of British Empire history concerning Ireland, Protestant-v-Catholic, 1916 and the Easter Rising, Irish independence and I.R.A. campaigns ?


Knowing history doesn't mean I live in the past- nor does it mean I compound errors with more errors.

Gosh, find some 'real' people- that's really biting. Where do you suggest I look ?

Northern Ireland ?

Gary
09-05-2005, 17:50:49
Against my better judgement ...

I'm suspecting that Ian Paisley, being a British citizen, like other British citizens in Northern Ireland, has a British passport

So do lots of Welsh, English, and Scots hold a British passport. So unless you are saying that there is no such thing as a Welshman, a Scotsman, and an Englishman... would spoil a lot of jokes.

which is a part of the United Kingdom, and not the Republic of Ireland

Interesting, stating the obvious eh ? And Eire has something to do with this discussion does it ?


Where do you suggest I look ?

Around you maybe ? Rather than on the Internet and in the history books. But there again I can tell an attempt to distract from the real bone of contention when I see it.

Northern Ireland ?

Northern ... where was that again ?

LoD
09-05-2005, 21:37:30
On this subject, the only thing I have to say now is:

FUCK PUTIN!

BigGameHunter
10-05-2005, 01:46:57
Whew! I was really desperate for new lines of some type to be drawn here so I could pick a clear, comfortable side.
My mixed heritage however makes this difficult...

Hmmm...could the Germans and Native Americans here start a fight please?

LoD
10-05-2005, 09:22:20
How about mass rapes of German women by the Russian soldiers in '45 and thereafter?

Spartak
10-05-2005, 10:36:40
What about the mass rape of soviet women by German soldiers in the years running up to 1945?

Lazarus and the Gimp
10-05-2005, 10:50:09
And this, gentle reader, is why we should commemorate VE day. To remind us that life is short, and worth hanging on to. And to promote peace and healing betwen nations, whether they fought in that war or not.

Vincent
10-05-2005, 17:26:02
What about 1866?

zmama
10-05-2005, 17:27:13
I wasn't alive


Maybe you can tell us about it :)

Vincent
10-05-2005, 17:32:53
Bah!

LoD
10-05-2005, 19:09:25
Originally posted by Spartak
What about the mass rape of soviet women by German soldiers in the years running up to 1945?

I was being sarcastic, just like BHG was (IMHO).

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
And this, gentle reader, is why we should commemorate VE day. To remind us that life is short, and worth hanging on to. And to promote peace and healing betwen nations, whether they fought in that war or not.

...and let's not use this commemoration to present false versions of history.

sleeping_satsuma
10-05-2005, 19:12:48
Originally posted by Spartak
Bearing in mind 60 years have passed, I'm sure we can find something else to remember and thank the vets for in that time.

Actually, I'm not against recognising those who fought and died in the war but it well beyond time that the UK stopped measuring itself against 60 year old victories and grew up in our approach to Germany and other axis powers.

I agree with you, but last time I said it everyone called me a Nazi :)

OldWarrior_42
11-05-2005, 03:57:49
Nazi.



Just keeping with tradition. :D

Vincent
11-05-2005, 05:51:31
you called?

OldWarrior_42
11-05-2005, 07:31:41
You're not a nazi, you're a nitwit. :-P~

Dyl Ulenspiegel
11-05-2005, 08:57:45
Originally posted by Vincent
What about 1866?

That year did not exist.

Funko
11-05-2005, 10:36:11
Originally posted by zmama
I wasn't alive


Maybe you can tell us about it :)

But you were in 1945?

Lazarus and the Gimp
11-05-2005, 10:58:55
Originally posted by Vincent
What about 1866?

It's celebrated as the 100th pre-anniversary of England's glorious victory over West Germany in the World Cup final, of course.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
11-05-2005, 11:07:37
We commemorated the 1700th anniversary of the Markomanni invasion.

For some reason, that sounds browncardable....

Drekkus
11-05-2005, 11:49:34
Commemorated as in celebration of germanic tribes?

Dyl Ulenspiegel
11-05-2005, 12:06:49
Well, we're a bit torn on the issue, as most mongrels...

Fergus & The Brazen Car
12-05-2005, 13:26:02
Originally posted by Gary

Rather than on the Internet and in the history books. But there again I can tell an attempt to distract from the real bone of contention when I see it


No, Gary - the real bone of contention is whether you can tell the difference between the Irish- who don't celebrate the defeat of James II at the Battle of the Boyne by King Billy, or the failure of the Gunpowder Plot, and the British, who do.


Of course, you may also be having difficulty telling your arse from your elbow if rather basic facts about British history are beyond your ken.


As for Eire/The Republic of Ireland having/not having something to do with the discussion- well, the Irish might think so, having fought a war to liberate the country from the British.

You know, those people holding Orange Day parades and having bonfires on November 5th.

Gary
12-05-2005, 18:54:32
How can you discuss anything with someone who is in denial that Northern Ireland is part of the island called Ireland ?

If it's worth anything to you, you have my pity.

Lazarus and the Gimp
12-05-2005, 19:44:58
Originally posted by Gary


Folk born in Ireland are Irish regardless whose citizens they are.



My sister was born in Bahrain.

Gary
12-05-2005, 19:49:46
Then she's Bahrainian, or whatever they call themselves. Although, no doubt she was allowed to adopt her (your) parents nationality.

I'm suspecting she didn't stay there either. Hardly the same thing comparing one individual temporarily in a place at birth, and a whole population living and staying in a place permanently, is it.

Is it my imagination or is everyone here in an argumentative mood of late ?

Lazarus and the Gimp
12-05-2005, 20:06:54
Well it's a dumb assertion on your part to assign labels according to the Geographical land masses coinciding with birthplace, rather than addressing such issues as boundaries, isn't it?

Japher
12-05-2005, 20:11:32
If you are born in Ireland you are not necessarily Irish... I think you have to be a) born in ireland and b) be an alcoholic in order to be considered Irish.

MDA
12-05-2005, 20:35:32
You could be the offspring of Celtic invaders.

Chris
12-05-2005, 20:46:17
Originally posted by Vincent
What about 1866? I had the Prussians and the points.

Austria could never score against the Prussians.

Gary
13-05-2005, 08:22:06
References to arse & elbow, and now referring to dumb assertions. This place does seem to be going downhill. I guess some of the folk here must have issues in their life at the moment.

Geographical land masses have political boundaries assigned to them. So the land mass has been given a name, is assigned to a country. If you label one land mass Bahrain, then obviously if you are born there then you are Bahrainian, or Bahraini or whatever. If you label another land mass Ireland, then obviously if you are born there then you are Irish. It's not an assertion, it's simple common sense.

But I suspect you're just trying to yank my chain anyway.

Gary
13-05-2005, 08:25:35
Besides, if you are going to support this strange assertion that folk born in Northern Ireland are not Irish, then what are they ?

Are people born in Wales not Welsh ? Are people born in England not English ? Are people born in Scotland not Scottish ?

Do you not agree that the idea just doesn't stand up ?

Dyl Ulenspiegel
13-05-2005, 08:48:05
This thread has gone way too far up the polymeter.

Lazarus and the Gimp
13-05-2005, 09:23:15
Originally posted by Gary
References to arse & elbow, and now referring to dumb assertions. This place does seem to be going downhill. I guess some of the folk here must have issues in their life at the moment.


You can descend from your high horse now, Gary. Why is it, when the common factor in these arguments is you, that it's other people who have "issues"?

If you can't handle the fact that people might have different opinions and aren't simply pepared to abandon them in the face of your own, don't bother doing this stuff.

Lazarus and the Gimp
13-05-2005, 09:24:16
And now I'm off to tell my sister that she's Bahrainian. I predict amusement on her part.

Gary
13-05-2005, 11:51:20
The only common factor is that recently I've made a few innocent statements that can't reasonably be disputed, and the result has been that some individual has chosen to argue anyway, sometimes getting all irate, bringing up all sorts of irrelevant stuff as their justification.

I mentioned that others might have issues since it is they who chose to start with the insults. It seems a fair and polite assessment to me. I like to think that I rarely rush into personal insults as I try to deliberately try to avoid doing so, unless either a) it's obvious I'm teasing, or b) someone else has already slung one or more at me.

Lazarus and the Gimp
13-05-2005, 14:24:52
You might like to think so, indeed. However, that didn't stop you doing the following-

1- Attributing disagreement to the opposing party having "issues".
2- Announcing that the forum is going downhill, thereby lumping in your opponent with undesirable factors damaging the forum.

All it needed was "Fuck you all, I'm leaving forever" and "I'll probably be dead soon and it'll be your fault" to complete the sacred quartet of adolescent meltdown statement. You are not that delicate, however.

And what do you mean- "can't reasonably be disputed"? Your Ireland statement certainly can- it's flawed politically and by its own logic. You could equally argue that all people born on the island of Ireland are British- Ireland is, after all, the second largest island of the British Isles if we're talking geography.

One final point, calling an assertion "dumb" is not insulting someone. We all, after all, make dumb assertions from time to time. Save it for when you're actually insulted.

Venom
13-05-2005, 14:32:15
Oooh burn!

Now what's going on here?

Lazarus and the Gimp
13-05-2005, 14:36:43
We're discussing your death and the disposal of your corpse.

Venom
13-05-2005, 14:47:54
Should be fun. Can I come along?

Gary
13-05-2005, 15:34:28
Attributing disagreement to the opposing party having "issues".

That's fair enough isn't it ? Folk can disagree with being got at.

Announcing that the forum is going downhill, thereby lumping in your opponent with undesirable factors damaging the forum

Given the insults thrown my way I think that was the most polite way of objecting one could find, bar just taking it all. I feel it's a genuine statement.

All it needed was "Fuck you all, I'm leaving forever" and "I'll probably be dead soon and it'll be your fault" to complete the sacred quartet of adolescent meltdown statement.

Probably best to leave that without further comment. It illustrates the previous points.

And what do you mean- "can't reasonably be disputed"? Your Ireland statement certainly can ...

I am amazed you can claim that. Regardless which Irish statement you refer to. Clearly I would not claim all people born on the island of Ireland are British. We are talking countries here not geography. Geography only comes into it when it is related to defining countries. And when one refers to someone as British the reference is to that part of Britain that is part of the United Kingdom. Besides the nationality is going to be Irish, or Welsh, or Scottish, or English anyway.

So there is no flaw, neither in the logic nor politically.

One final point, calling an assertion "dumb" is most certainly insulting someone since an assertion is neither clever nor dumb of itself but reflects on the person making the statement.

Chris
13-05-2005, 15:39:02
I find this thread dumb.

Funko
13-05-2005, 15:40:39
Most sensible post so far.

Venom
13-05-2005, 15:46:51
Most sensible, sure. But this is the most funny.

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
It's celebrated as the 100th pre-anniversary of England's glorious victory over West Germany in the World Cup final, of course.

Chris
13-05-2005, 15:47:56
Funko is contributing to the degradation of the forum with such comments.

That, and allowing Lurker to post are simply intolerable.

Funko
13-05-2005, 15:49:55
It's not my fault, if you insist on posting sensibly we'll have to ban you. :bash:

zmama
13-05-2005, 15:57:53
BAN THE TWAT!!!

Funko
13-05-2005, 16:00:57
Can you be more specific?

Chris
13-05-2005, 16:14:19
You will have to be more specific

Lazarus and the Gimp
13-05-2005, 17:52:46
Originally posted by Gary
Attributing disagreement to the opposing party having "issues".

That's fair enough isn't it ? Folk can disagree with being got at.
[/SIZE][/FONT]

JESUS GOD, MAN! DO YOU NOT SEE THAT YOU ARE FLATLY CONTRADICTING YOURSELF?! "FAIR ENOUGH"?! WHAT FUCKING ISSUES? DISAGREEINGWITHGARYITIS?

OK, I give up. Yes- the reason I'm disagreeing with Gary is because I've got "issues". What other reason could there be? In fact, by objecting to being entirely reasonably labelled as having "issues" for expressing a conflicting opinion, I accept that I am responsible for making the forum nasty and howwid.

That's it. It's settled. QED. Now I'm off to nurse my "issues".

LoD
13-05-2005, 18:00:17
Can we just go back to bashing Putin?

Japher
13-05-2005, 18:13:56
OK, I give up.

But you're Irish! You can't give up! Where would Ireland be if your ancestors had given up their fight against Britian!

;)

Gary
13-05-2005, 18:15:22
T FUCKING ISSUES? DISAGREEINGWITHGARYITIS?

How would I know what's causing the apparent bad mood, that taking it out on me is apparently helping solve ? I just surmise that there must be something or folk would remain civil.

Disagreement isn't a problem, I've disagreed with many folk on and off. But there again I can usually see where they're coming from. But just occasionally that's not the case and I then wonder why, and draw my own reasonable conclusions.

Japher
13-05-2005, 18:17:28
I'm just stoking the fire

I have no idea what the argument is about

though I assume it is about who hates the French more

Venom
13-05-2005, 18:25:10
Howwid is a funny word. If it's even a word.

Japher
13-05-2005, 18:25:57
what does it mean?

Venom
13-05-2005, 18:29:18
I don't know. It just looks funny. And sounds funny. And smells funny.

Venom
13-05-2005, 18:30:03
I am unable to find howwid in the dictionary.

Immortal Wombat
13-05-2005, 18:34:57
At the risk of a hundred nilling, try "horrid"

Chris
13-05-2005, 18:37:20
This argument is gay.

Which is why its here, obviously.

Japher
13-05-2005, 18:37:42
horrid...

not as funny

howwid

:lol:

Lazarus and the Gimp
13-05-2005, 22:02:00
Originally posted by Gary
T FUCKING ISSUES? DISAGREEINGWITHGARYITIS?



Disagreement isn't a problem, I've disagreed with many folk on and off. But there again I can usually see where they're coming from. But just occasionally that's not the case and I then wonder why, and draw my own reasonable conclusions.

And tell them they've got "issues" and are dragging down the forum, right? You're being an arrogant prick, Gary. And yes, now I'm insulting you. I was only criticising your point of view earlier, but now if you're going to label me as some sort of emotional casualty simply because I'm disagreeing with you then I'm fucked if I'm going to stay polite. So you take take your "reasonable conclusions" and shove them back up your ragingly pompous arse.

Gary
13-05-2005, 22:15:57
You weren't being polite before, so no change there then.

zmama
14-05-2005, 01:19:02
Originally posted by Chris
You will have to be more specific

yes , yes I will

Colon
14-05-2005, 03:32:07
Good you cleared things up.