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HelloKitty
25-04-2005, 08:07:11
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/04/24/prison.population.reut/index.html

The United States has incarcerated 726 people per 100,000 of its population, seven to 10 times as many as most other democracies. The rate for England is 142 per 100,000, for France 91 and for Japan 58.

The figures issued by the department's statistical unit showed that 12.6 percent of black males in their late twenties were behind bars. The comparable rate for Hispanic males was 3.6 percent and for whites 1.7 percent.

Too bad we didn't win the war on crime like we won the war on drugs, the war on poverty and the war on terror.

Would be super depressing to find out that drug use is up, that more people are below the poverty level, and more americans are at risk of death from extremists than ever before.

HelloKitty
25-04-2005, 08:12:14
According to the Justice Policy Institute, which advocates a more lenient system of punishment, the United States has a higher rate of incarceration than any other country, followed by Britain, China, France, Japan and Nigeria.

in other words WE ARE NUMBER 1!!! WOOO!!!

and

In 2004, one in every 138 U.S. residents was in prison or jail;

protein
25-04-2005, 08:31:10
:eek:

Dyl Ulenspiegel
25-04-2005, 08:53:13
Yaaay

for the landofthefree!

Oerdin
25-04-2005, 08:55:36
The US has largely given up on rehabilitation since so many of those programs from the 50's through the 80's resulted in something like 90% recitivism rates. Instead more and more states are opting for a harsh, harsher, harshest sentencing rules which expensive and mean spirited though they are do lower crime rates.

It doesn't take a genious to figure out that tossing repeat offenders into jail for long periods of time results in fewer offenses. I wish they'd put at least some effort into rehabilitation and drug treatment though.

mr.G
25-04-2005, 08:56:56
Originally posted by Dyl Ulenspiegel
Yaaay

for the landofthefree! :lol:

Diss
25-04-2005, 09:14:52
disgusting? I think not

People are disgusted all the time by how many people are in prison, but then they bitch when some little girl is raped because child molestors are not in prison very long.

You can't have it both ways. You just can't go releasing criminals to the streets and not expect them to commit crimes.

Yeah, yeah I know. The usual argument will come up that most of them are drug offenders. But I doubt that. Most people convicted of a non-violent crime usually do not spend long times in prison. It's only the violent offenders occupying these prisons.

And americans aren't at risk of dying by extremists. Don't tell me you believe the republican scare tactics? We aren't at any risk of dying. Terrorists have no ability to kill me.

Sir Penguin
25-04-2005, 09:18:18
People are disgusted all the time by how many people are in prison, but then they bitch when some little girl is raped because child molestors are not in prison very long.
Is that child molestor not released early because the prisons are full?

SP

HelloKitty
25-04-2005, 09:19:01
Yeah, yeah I know. The usual argument will come up that most of them are drug offenders. But I doubt that. Most people convicted of a non-violent crime usually do not spend long times in prison. It's only the violent offenders occupying these prisons.

You are thinking of a rational country.

Many states now have 3 strikes rules. If you are convicted 3 times, regardless of the severity, you get a mandatory sentence of generally 25 years or so.

Drug and drug paraphenilia possession, even small amounts count towards these "strikes".

Diss
25-04-2005, 09:20:06
They are released because prisons are full.

I say build more prisons. America will continues to attract the scum of the earth because we are the richest nation on earth. Where there's money, there's people there wanting to take it by force.

Put em' all in prisons. I don't care.

HelloKitty
25-04-2005, 09:20:43
Originally posted by Sir Penguin
Is that child molestor not released early because the prisons are full?

SP

No, the child molester is released earlier because he only got caught once, as opposed to the 19 year old who has a DWI, possession, and then gets caught shoplifting video tapes.

Diss
25-04-2005, 09:21:41
Originally posted by HelloKitty
No, the child molester is released earlier because he only got caught once, as opposed to the 19 year old who has a DWI, possession, and then gets caught shoplifting video tapes.

:lol:

you are going to have to show me cases where that has happened.

I've seen people with 8 DUI's that aren't in prison.

Gary
25-04-2005, 09:22:24
Land of the free.. Brilliant :)

Anyway it's good to see the US take a lead in these matters. What I don't understand is why you've not convinced Tory Bliar :confused:

Dyl Ulenspiegel
25-04-2005, 09:23:13
Seriously, what are you supposed to do with the american subsubproletariate? In contrast to the middle class, they can't be tranquilized by nationalism and mirages of social mobility. So you either have to hand them bread and games, or repress them. Repression is the simpler option, especially when you have an elaborate system to circumvent constitutional guarantees.

HelloKitty
25-04-2005, 09:23:48
Oh, adn according to 2. Bureau of Justice Statistics: Bulletin NCJ 203947- Prison/Jail Inmates, Midyear 2003 & The Sentencing Project: Facts About Prisons and Prisoners [Briefing/Factsheet #1035] after USDOJ, Bureau of Justice Statistics.

the number of people incarcerated total has doubled since 1980 because of increased drug convictions. In 1980 50k people were in prison for drug related crimes. In 2002 it was over 500k.

Oerdin
25-04-2005, 09:27:03
Originally posted by Diss
:lol:

you are going to have to show me cases where that has happened.

I've seen people with 8 DUI's that aren't in prison.

The three strikes law started in California and only some states use it. The problem in California is that there is no hard and fast rule as to what is or isn't a strike so the local DA gets to decide and often the DA is some ass wipe who wants to get elected to higher office on a "I was tough on crime" platform. That does result is shit bag DA's trying to give life in prison because some black kid with two priors shoplifts a video at the quicky mart.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
25-04-2005, 09:28:10
Originally posted by Oerdin
The three strikes law started in California and only some states use it. The problem in California is that there is no hard and fast rule as to what is or isn't a strike so the local DA gets to decide and often the DA is some ass wipe who wants to get elected to higher office on a "I was tough on crime" platform. That does result is shit bag DA's trying to give life in prison because some black kid with two priors shoplifts a video at the quicky mart.

Yaaay

for theruleoflaw!

Yaaay

for equalitybeforethelaw!

Funko
25-04-2005, 09:28:30
1 in 8 black males is in prison? That's unbelievable.

Apparently 49% are for violent offences and 20% for drugs:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm

There's clearly a huge social problem, probably easier for people to make fortunes out of running private prisons than solve it.

Oerdin
25-04-2005, 09:29:35
A few years back there was a proposition to change the three strikes law so that it only effected violent offenders but predictably the prison guard's union and the police union throw big money into killing that. :rolleyes:

JM^3
25-04-2005, 09:30:18
Originally posted by HelloKitty
the number of people incarcerated total has doubled since 1980 because of increased drug convictions. In 1980 50k people were in prison for drug related crimes. In 2002 it was over 500k. [/B]

That is enough to make me want to end drugs being a major crime.

Jon Miller
(but drugs, definitely heavy ones, cause trouble for society, so how should they be handled?)

HelloKitty
25-04-2005, 09:31:00
Originally posted by Diss
:lol:

you are going to have to show me cases where that has happened.

I've seen people with 8 DUI's that aren't in prison.

What state are you in?

Does DWI count as a felony there? Does your state have one of these idiotic strikes rules?

Some states laugh it off and just collect a fine (most of the south).

JM^3
25-04-2005, 09:32:27
or not even a fine, as is the case in Maryland

if you hire a lawyer you get PB&J which is a mandatory class and suspended license for 1 month

Jon Miller

Oerdin
25-04-2005, 09:32:58
Originally posted by Dyl Ulenspiegel
So you either have to hand them bread and games, or repress them. Repression is the simpler option, especially when you have an elaborate system to circumvent constitutional guarantees.

Can you please detail how that detail how that circumvention has occured in the US as opposed to extra territorialitial locations like Gitmo which is technically Cuba. The US also continues to recognize the Batista regime instead of Castro's so that results in a big legal farce stretching back 45 years.

HelloKitty
25-04-2005, 09:33:59
Originally posted by Oerdin
A few years back there was a proposition to change the three strikes law so that it only effected violent offenders but predictably the prison guard's union and the police union throw big money into killing that. :rolleyes:

Wasn't that after the state supreme court ruled against the guy who earned multiple 3rd strikes at once after over 20 years of no crimes?

iirc he was arrested for assault in the 70s and possession, then he was arrested for shoplifting (video cassettes, which is why I used them as an example) and something else minor and was given 50 years with no parole.

Cruddy
25-04-2005, 09:34:36
Originally posted by Funko


There's clearly a huge social problem, probably easier for people to make fortunes out of running private prisons than solve it.

Of course. Money talks.

I can't really be smug about this because the UK's prison population is way bigger than most of Europe.

I'm just grateful we don't have private pens.

HelloKitty
25-04-2005, 09:38:32
Originally posted by JM^3

(but drugs, definitely heavy ones, cause trouble for society, so how should they be handled?)

Rehabilitation, mandatory testing for repeat offenders (like some states do for multiple DUIs), with resedential rehabilitation treatment for people who don't improve.

As for the punishment, Comm service.

Add 500k+ people cleaning the streets, doing foresting projects, building low income homes, etc. For 5 hours a week until they have done thier "time".

The costs of manegment and administration would be far less than the 25k minimum each prisoner costs us now.

HelloKitty
25-04-2005, 09:39:39
Originally posted by Cruddy
Of course. Money talks.

I can't really be smug about this because the UK's prison population is way bigger than most of Europe.

I'm just grateful we don't have private pens.

yeah, England is considered pretty bad by most of the world. Too bad we are 5 or 6 times as bad.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
25-04-2005, 09:41:05
Originally posted by Oerdin
Can you please detail how that detail how that circumvention has occured in the US as opposed to extra territorialitial locations like Gitmo which is technically Cuba.

You yourself mentioned laws that are wide open to abuse. The instrument of plea bargains and the lack of ex officio scrutiny combined with public defense lawyers that are a joke means that anyone without proper resources can be convicted at the prosecution's pleasure.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
25-04-2005, 09:42:39
Originally posted by HelloKitty

The costs of manegment and administration would be far less than the 25k minimum each prisoner costs us now.

It's too late. The prison industry is a 50-100 billion $ business - iow, it is unreformable.

Diss
25-04-2005, 09:45:11
Originally posted by Oerdin
The three strikes law started in California and only some states use it. The problem in California is that there is no hard and fast rule as to what is or isn't a strike so the local DA gets to decide and often the DA is some ass wipe who wants to get elected to higher office on a "I was tough on crime" platform. That does result is shit bag DA's trying to give life in prison because some black kid with two priors shoplifts a video at the quicky mart.

I can't help it if you guys lived in a fucked up state :lol:

We don't have silly 3 strikes laws where I live.

Funko
25-04-2005, 09:46:41
Originally posted by Cruddy
Of course. Money talks.

I can't really be smug about this because the UK's prison population is way bigger than most of Europe.

I'm just grateful we don't have private pens.

Well... we are going that way. Things like prison transfers have been privatised (Group 4! Woo!). Bliar is very keen on Public Private Initiatives...

But yes, we're bad and we shouldn't let the skewed US figures make us feel more secure about our own problems. :(

HelloKitty
25-04-2005, 09:47:11
Nm, I was mixing up cases. The guy who I was thinking of had no violent crimes and was caught multiple times stealing videos to give to his kids.

There was another case where a guy hadn't done anything for 20+ years and as caught on something minor.

The United States supreme court has ruled that a 50-year sentence being served by a man who shoplifted videos as gifts for his children is not a "cruel and unusual" punishment.

The ruling was described as "barbarous" by campaigners against California's "three strikes law", which imposes mandatory penalties for third-time offenders.

By a majority of five to four, the supreme court decided that Leandro Andrade should continue to serve the 50 years imposed in 1995 for shoplifting videos worth 95 on two separate occasions.

Because he had committed past similar shoplifting offences, he was jailed in 1995 under the state's three-strikes law, which mandates a minimum 25-year sentence for each new offence, making a total of 50 years.

HelloKitty
25-04-2005, 09:49:31
Originally posted by Diss
I can't help it if you guys lived in a fucked up state :lol:

We don't have silly 3 strikes laws where I live.

And what state do you live in?

At least the horrible state I live in put a hold on all executions after DNA tests started showing that someething like half the people on death row were innocent.

Cruddy
25-04-2005, 09:50:31
Originally posted by HelloKitty
[B]And what state do you live in?[B]

Ooooooooooo, I know... but I'm not going to tell.

Funko
25-04-2005, 09:50:59
So...

he steals $400 worth of stuff, and is jailed for 50 years at $25,000 a year?

You could give him $500,000 to spend on videos and save the government a fortune.

HelloKitty
25-04-2005, 09:51:33
Originally posted by Cruddy
Ooooooooooo, I know... but I'm not going to tell.

The state of denial is not a real place.

Cruddy
25-04-2005, 09:53:56
Originally posted by Funko
So...

he steals $400 worth of stuff, and is jailed for 50 years at $25,000 a year?

You could give him $500,000 to spend on videos and save the government a fortune.

Ah, but that would take money out the legal profession's pockets.

They'd sue for loss of earnings.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
25-04-2005, 09:54:00
reality is subjective

HelloKitty
25-04-2005, 09:54:04
Originally posted by Funko
So...

he steals $400 worth of stuff, and is jailed for 50 years at $25,000 a year?

You could give him $500,000 to spend on videos and save the government a fortune.

Yep.

Or give him a job that pays a wage over poverty level and still come out ahead.


The irony of the three strikes law is the Father of the little girl who was murdered that got legislators to introduce the law is the head of the organization to reform or remove the law.

Oerdin
25-04-2005, 09:55:31
Originally posted by HelloKitty
Oh, adn according to 2. Bureau of Justice Statistics: Bulletin NCJ 203947- Prison/Jail Inmates, Midyear 2003 & The Sentencing Project: Facts About Prisons and Prisoners [Briefing/Factsheet #1035] after USDOJ, Bureau of Justice Statistics.

the number of people incarcerated total has doubled since 1980 because of increased drug convictions. In 1980 50k people were in prison for drug related crimes. In 2002 it was over 500k.

Kitty, most drug offenders aren't part of the federal system unless they were drug smugglers or they ran a distrubition network which crossed state lines. Federal prisons have only a tiny fraction who are involved in drug offenses and it is the state or local jails where drug offenders end up. Most of them are short term residents of those jails though unless they have some sort of serious prior.

I know where I live you don't go to jail for drug offenses unless you have so much in your possession that you are deemed to be a dealer. Even repeat offenders get short sentences unless their on parole or something then their parole can be revoked with extra time tacked on as a penalty.

HelloKitty
25-04-2005, 09:58:15
Originally posted by Oerdin
Kitty, most drug offenders aren't part of the federal system unless they were drug smugglers or they ran a distrubition network which crossed state lines. Federal prisons have only a tiny fraction who are involved in drug offenses and it is the state or local jails where drug offenders end up. Most of them are short term residents of those jails though unless they have some sort of serious prior.

I know where I live you don't go to jail for drug offenses unless you have so much in your possession that you are deemed to be a dealer. Even repeat offenders get short sentences unless their on parole or something then their parole can be revoked with extra time tacked on as a penalty.

I'm not sure of your point since the article I refers to is about "Prison/Jail Inmates" not just federal prisoners.

HelloKitty
25-04-2005, 09:59:42
Originally posted by HelloKitty
Yep.

Or give him a job that pays a wage over poverty level and still come out ahead.


ANd I looked,

24,680 is the cutoff for the poverty level for a family of 6.

Oerdin
25-04-2005, 10:05:10
Originally posted by HelloKitty
Wasn't that after the state supreme court ruled against the guy who earned multiple 3rd strikes at once after over 20 years of no crimes?

iirc he was arrested for assault in the 70s and possession, then he was arrested for shoplifting (video cassettes, which is why I used them as an example) and something else minor and was given 50 years with no parole.

I recall the case but I'm not sure how it was resolved. I believe he won the appeal against the strike and became the poster child for 3-strikes abuse. The DA in that case was exactly what I was talking about earlier; a DA hoping to run for higher office and trying to earn the title of most life sentences handed out (or something) so he could show what a great crime fighter he was. :rolleyes:

Oerdin
25-04-2005, 10:13:50
Originally posted by Dyl Ulenspiegel
You yourself mentioned laws that are wide open to abuse. The instrument of plea bargains and the lack of ex officio scrutiny combined with public defense lawyers that are a joke means that anyone without proper resources can be convicted at the prosecution's pleasure.

The public defender is entirely separate from the District Attorney. There is no fraternization or at least friendships between the two groups are discouraged and most blue states spend far more on getting enough public defenders then your average red southern state. You'd probably get as good a public defender in California, Massachusetts, or New York as you would in even the most progressive of European states.

The abuses of the three strikes law has nothing to do with the constitution nor of due process and instead has to do with poorly written state laws which let DAs decide what does or doesn't qualify as a strike. That means the DA in San Francisco defines it differently from the DA in LA and different from the DA in the Republican stronghold of Orange County. It is one state law but the definition of what a serious crime is varies from DA to DA.

Oerdin
25-04-2005, 10:21:44
Originally posted by HelloKitty

There was another case where a guy hadn't done anything for 20+ years and as caught on something minor.

The moral of that story is if you are a two strike criminal who's trying to reform your life you need to move to a different state where the slighest slip up will result in life in prison.

Oerdin
25-04-2005, 10:25:54
Originally posted by HelloKitty
I'm not sure of your point since the article I refers to is about "Prison/Jail Inmates" not just federal prisoners.

My point is they are playing word games to make the figures sound big. Most people with drug possession smaller then the legal amount to qualify as a drug dealer end up spending the night in jail and are released the next morning. They're still counted as people incarcerated but the it is a deceptive figure since they spent 8-12 hours in jail.

I've seen the figure called "people incarcerated for substance abuse" which conveniently includes people tossed in the drunk tank over night because they are drunk in public. If we are going to talk about the real prison population then we need to talk about people who are in jail for at least a few months.

Gary
25-04-2005, 10:28:23
To state the obvious (sorry) you wouldn't save a fotune as all the other citizens would start committing crimes for the big payoff.

Stealing videos ? String 'em up. It's the only language these folk understand.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
25-04-2005, 10:33:23
Oerdin:

"The public defender is entirely separate from the District Attorney."

Where did I deny that? The issue is with quality, interest and time available.

"The abuses of the three strikes law has nothing to do with the constitution nor of due process and instead has to do with poorly written state laws which let DAs decide what does or doesn't qualify as a strike."

And those laws are constitutional in your view and allow "due process" (if we assume that material law also affects procedure, even without substantative due process)?

Under your interpretation, it would be ok to pass a law: "Anyone who the DA deems to act against the public interest shall be punished with a prison term up to 100 years".

HelloKitty
25-04-2005, 10:43:08
Originally posted by Gary


Stealing videos ? String 'em up. It's the only language these folk understand.

Are you running for office in Texas?

Gary
25-04-2005, 10:51:07
It's not up to us to judge, that God's job, we just have to ensure they get to him.

And it's cheaper in the long run.

Oerdin
25-04-2005, 11:02:17
Originally posted by Gary
To state the obvious (sorry) you wouldn't save a fotune as all the other citizens would start committing crimes for the big payoff.

Stealing videos ? String 'em up. It's the only language these folk understand.

That was one very notable exception which was given an extreme amount of press coverage in this state. The majority of DAs confine three strikes to violent offenders (I.E. three rapes equals life, etc...) and that is a good law. The state three strikes law should be officially amended so that it only covers violent offenders but the prison guard union and the police union have vested interests and lost of money to spend. Add in the fact that politicians are tripping over themselves to prove who is tougher on crime and you have a recipe for legal lunacy.