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DevilsH@lo
19-04-2005, 22:32:43
If you go to the link below you can see two further links on the Lib Dem site, one to show you the proposed Lib Dem tax in your area, and one that shows you where your household fits into the national earnings. For me and DH (without taking lodger income into account) it says:

you have a higher income than around 97% of the population - equivalent to about 55.1 million individuals

But surely this can't be right? We both earn above national average but only just, and if we didn't have a lodger we'd be struggling. Plus its very deceptive as it takes no account of things like mortgage payments, student loans etc

Am starting to have serious doubts about Lib Dems after seeing they propose a projected 600 tax increase in my area, and that would go up further if we keptthe lodger on- the one friggin benefit single people with houses do get under the rent a room scheme.

Is it actually possible to live well and prosper these days without spawning?

http://www.axethetax.org.uk/pages/taxcalculator.html?PHPSESSID=ba26e18dac5c9e6a0a087 a53f4d38cab

Provost Harrison
19-04-2005, 22:59:35
That link isn't working...

MOBIUS
19-04-2005, 23:18:05
No, not even when you go to the base website. Are you sure that was a kosher website cos it sounds very fishy...

Provost Harrison
19-04-2005, 23:24:34
Yeah, I did a Google search for it too incase there was a URL problem but nope...

DevilsH@lo
19-04-2005, 23:28:19
hang on ladies

DevilsH@lo
19-04-2005, 23:29:20
http://www.ifs.org.uk/wheredoyoufitin/

http://www.axethetax.org.uk/

Provost Harrison
19-04-2005, 23:36:25
Shite, it would increase my council tax by 50% :eek:

MOBIUS
19-04-2005, 23:38:58
Are you sure you did it OK, because no offence like, but the two of you can't be in the top 3% of the nation's earners...;)

Provost Harrison
19-04-2005, 23:43:56
I do a good bit of overtime and get paid handsomely for it, plus a shift allowance, plus bonus, so I don't do that bad. Plus I have a house to myself so it looks like the LibDems want my money...I never thought I'd see the day, especially so quickly, when my more natural economic alignment is probably with the Tories :eek: Politically, I think they are piss-stained cunts...

MOBIUS
19-04-2005, 23:56:25
Sell out!:p

Provost Harrison
20-04-2005, 00:01:33
But what a price I fetched :D

MOBIUS
20-04-2005, 00:18:43
...for your soul?:cute:

DevilsH@lo
20-04-2005, 00:22:11
Originally posted by MOBIUS
Are you sure you did it OK, because no offence like, but the two of you can't be in the top 3% of the nation's earners...;)

yep I did it twice to make sure. Its ridiculous isnt it? I reckon we earn about the same as any thirty ish graduate couple living in the thames valley. Unless there are litrally millions of people earning national average and very few above and below, it doesnt make sense

Provost Harrison
20-04-2005, 00:22:35
No, hanging on for a better offer for that...although I've had a good one on Ebay from a B. Elzebub ;)

MOBIUS
20-04-2005, 00:23:41
Send them an email AH.

DevilsH@lo
20-04-2005, 00:26:38
ok I just redid it, as I realised I'd forgotten to deduct tax, came up with this:

you have a higher income than around 94% of the population - equivalent to about 53.4 million individuals


still..............what the fuck?

DevilsH@lo
20-04-2005, 00:31:44
basically I think its technically correct, however it doesnt account for individual financial circumstances, ie once our bills are paid and stuff, we have little more than someone earning half our income with no debt. It also stops the scales at 1100 a week and says 3% of the population is above that.

I feel embarassed now- I was expecting to be able to rant about poverty in the ex-student population, and instead I find out I'm secretly rather wealthy lol!!

Provost Harrison
20-04-2005, 00:57:59
I think it put me at the 94% mark which I find quite hard to believe...

DevilsH@lo
20-04-2005, 01:33:23
yeah its cause we dont have kids- its worked out on a per head basis so if you are a single or a single couple (if you know what I mean) in a low council tax area on a higher than average wage, you look like you're rich, but as I say it fails to take even the most basic expenditure into account, and most singles have loans and bills etc

Greg W
20-04-2005, 01:35:10
BORING BRITISH POLITICAL FORUM!

DevilsH@lo
20-04-2005, 01:39:53
yeah well..... I'm approaching 30, I have to think about shit like tax and pensions

Greg W
20-04-2005, 01:40:59
Why? I'm 33, and I couldn't give a flying fudge.

DevilsH@lo
20-04-2005, 01:42:02
you arent living in south east england. Its yuppie eat yuppie round here

Greg W
20-04-2005, 01:46:54
Remember your youth! Rebel! Don't fit into their stereotypes!

Or something.

Cruddy
20-04-2005, 01:48:43
If this thread has taught me anything, it's that the Lib Dems can't set up a website properly.

Either that or D@H is fantastically wealthy - if so, why post here? Why not get their butler to do it?

DevilsH@lo
20-04-2005, 01:51:11
Originally posted by Greg W
Remember your youth! Rebel! Don't fit into their stereotypes!

Or something.

yeah I'm trying....I need to get out of my corporate whore job. I want to go self employed as a much richer non-corporate whore

DevilsH@lo
20-04-2005, 01:52:27
Originally posted by Cruddy
If this thread has taught me anything, it's that the Lib Dems can't set up a website properly.

Either that or D@H is fantastically wealthy - if so, why post here? Why not get their butler to do it?

we dont have a butler, but we are looking for 'help' with the cleaning and ironing.

One just doesnt have time dahling, and one might chip one's nails.

mwah mwah

Greg W
20-04-2005, 01:53:13
Yeah, but you have to get out of worrying about the future. That's never been an issue for Generation X!

DevilsH@lo
20-04-2005, 01:56:20
I thought I was Gen-Y?

Greg W
20-04-2005, 01:59:12
:rolleyes:

DevilsH@lo
20-04-2005, 02:00:00
what does that face mean?

Cruddy
20-04-2005, 02:03:49
I'd say you were generation XI, not Y...

I've always liked the Lib Dems, but I do hope they manage better party organisation before they get real political power.

Otherwise we're doomed. We're DOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMED...

DevilsH@lo
20-04-2005, 02:05:16
yeah they need to address these tax fears and sort out some of their stupid policies like letting prisoners vote and letting 16 year olds work in porn.

Greg W
20-04-2005, 02:06:43
As far as I knew, the generation after Gen X was Gen Next. I thought Gen Y was a lame attempt to distinguish a female Gen Xer.

But then I'm just insane. ;)

DevilsH@lo
20-04-2005, 02:08:13
oh I've never heard that- I thought Gen Y was the accepted term.

I'm just not down with the kids these days obviously

Cruddy
20-04-2005, 02:08:15
Originally posted by DevilsH@lo
yeah they need to address these tax fears and sort out some of their stupid policies like letting prisoners vote and letting 16 year olds work in porn.

Oh, you won't have to worry about that. You'll be slaving in the salt mines of Antarcica to pay your back taxes.

DevilsH@lo
20-04-2005, 02:13:25
well considering my taxes would nearly double under lib dem, you're probably right! I would expect some serious fucking social improvements for that money I can tell you. And not just for 'HWF's'

Provost Harrison
20-04-2005, 09:44:02
HWFs?

Darkstar
20-04-2005, 09:46:41
Horrible
Wet
Farts

mr.G
20-04-2005, 09:48:37
yaaay i hate it when you fart and a little bit of gravy comes with that.

Cruddy
20-04-2005, 09:55:41
Following through, eh?

Funko
20-04-2005, 10:18:29
The Lib Dems won't get in anyway.

They aren't going to use the tax to raise more money so whilst some of us will pay more others will pay a lot less. Couples where both people work are bound to end up paying more. That's kind of the point of it...

At the moment should the still active but retired couple of pensioners next door have to find the same amount as council tax as you and DH, they'll benefit massively from local income tax.

DevilsH@lo
20-04-2005, 10:30:23
HWF's= 'Hard Working Families'

I understand the theory behing the tax Funko, I just think its going to be massively unfavourable to people such as ourselves, who work just as hard as families, but are struggling to get on/stay on the property ladder, and to pay off student debt.

Its also a big concern because DH is in the forces, so would he be taxed in two places as he is currently?

The one perk that new buyers get these days is being able to rent rooms out, but under Lib Dem proposals, that extra person in your house would attract extra tax.

All these factors are making it almost impossible for a generation of Uni grads and young professionals to have any hope of buying properties, have families etc, and its a very short sighted policy in my view, because when we are all due to retire the reduced birthrate will mean there's not enough support for our pensions.

I'm all for social equality, and thats why I vote LD, but equality should mean giving everyone the chance of housing and starting out well in life, not just the rich and the very poor. The middle class are penalised again and again.

Provost Harrison
20-04-2005, 10:35:35
One of the simple answers to the property problem DevilsH@lo is to actually build/regenerate more property. It is going on now but at a half-arsed rate. There are plenty of brownfield sites and the fact is, despite how pissants like English Heritage hate taller buildings, we are going to have to go with them in places like London because the reality is, there just isn't enough space otherwise!

Funko
20-04-2005, 10:50:28
"Its also a big concern because DH is in the forces, so would he be taxed in two places as he is currently?"

No, he only has one income so'd get taxed once. But you have hit the nail on the head to one of the other problems with local income tax. If you live in two places, where does the money go?

"I just think its going to be massively unfavourable to people such as ourselves, who work just as hard as families"

If you were both working parents you'd have to pay the same amount, so it's totally fair in that respect.

"The one perk that new buyers get these days is being able to rent rooms out, but under Lib Dem proposals, that extra person in your house would attract extra tax."

They'd be paying that tax wherever they lived, and that's down to them, it wouldn't make a difference to what you pay. It does mean that the cost benefit of sharing is lower.

Like I said none of these taxes are perfect, they all tax some different groups worse than others. And the very rich would be taxed a huge amount more. Someone earning a million a year and living in a band H house (the highest) would currently pay 2,200ish around here and on local income tax would pay 37,000.

So the poor get taxed a lot less, high income working couples get taxed a bit more and the very rich get taxed loads more... a good thing.

Gary
20-04-2005, 10:52:48
I really must dig out this year's bill to check. They seem to think it fair to treble what I'm presently paying (and I only entered the basic salary, not any annual unguarantied/variable bonus).

I find it hard to believe that compared to a "fair" system I'm underpaying by that much. Whilst I earn above average I'm already (probably) paying more than most in the area since I have one of the few with the double extension at the side, with a garage.

DevilsH@lo
20-04-2005, 10:56:36
Well, I guess we don't want to ruin the countryside etc, but ne whouses are rarely affordable round here anyway. All the new developments I've seen start at 200,000 minimum, even on flats it seems. Given that DH and I are on relatively good wages, and even we on a graduate multiple cant afford one of those, forces me to ask how people on minimum wage will EVER afford it, or even people on the average wage. A single person can forget it too. Things like Gordon Brown's stamp duty raising are a mockery, its impossible to buy here now. Our house is worth 155,000 now and that is well over the stamp duty limit of 100,000. You can't buy a house for less than 130,000 in teh South East, and they come up about twice a year. 140-150,000 is about as low as it gets. Then the struggle to pay the mortgage and run the place.

They should have dealt with this situation years ago.

DevilsH@lo
20-04-2005, 11:03:56
Originally posted by Funko
"Its also a big concern because DH is in the forces, so would he be taxed in two places as he is currently?"

No, he only has one income so'd get taxed once. But you have hit the nail on the head to one of the other problems with local income tax. If you live in two places, where does the money go?

"I just think its going to be massively unfavourable to people such as ourselves, who work just as hard as families"

If you were both working parents you'd have to pay the same amount, so it's totally fair in that respect.

"The one perk that new buyers get these days is being able to rent rooms out, but under Lib Dem proposals, that extra person in your house would attract extra tax."

They'd be paying that tax wherever they lived, and that's down to them, it wouldn't make a difference to what you pay. It does mean that the cost benefit of sharing is lower.

Like I said none of these taxes are perfect, they all tax some different groups worse than others. And the very rich would be taxed a huge amount more. Someone earning a million a year and living in a band H house (the highest) would currently pay 2,200ish around here and on local income tax would pay 37,000.

So the poor get taxed a lot less, high income working couples get taxed a bit more and the very rich get taxed loads more... a good thing.

You're forgetting the subsidies that are thrown at parents to procreate. Tax credits etc.

It would be very difficult to ask a lodger to pay tax separately to yourself, especially as you are assessed on the total occupancy of the house. And the point is still that the extra person is attracting more tax.

Overall, my concern is that once again, its a tax that hits the middle class, who are basically struggling to pay mortgages and bills and send their kids to Uni/have kids/pay back Uni debt/buy a house etc. Earning more money only means something if you have money to spare. The way the system currently works, the poor can live pretty much as well as the middle class, simply by not working. There's something very wrong with that, and I think Local Income Tax would add to that burden.

My concern is that it pays to be non-aspirational, and it seems to not pay to want to better yourself and invest in your future. A lot of people now feel like this and it needs to be addressed.

Funko
20-04-2005, 11:16:49
That depends on how they collect it... one option is to collect it along with normal income tax. If they do it on a house by house basis then of course they have to pay their share. It's not difficult to ask it's esential.

It's fair enough not to like it. :) It is one of the major Lib Dem policies I'm not too sure about either. I think the current council tax system is totally shit but Local Income tax is like a poll tax where non workers don't pay. Is that better? Not sure.

That financially/taxation philosophy you mentioned is pretty much the basis of the Conservative financial policy, they believe in taxing less and letting people keep as much of their earnings as possible so they can decide how to spend it.

As you are socially liberal and fiscally conservative maybe you should consider voting Labour. :)

DevilsH@lo
20-04-2005, 11:30:13
Tragically Mike, like a lot of people, I'd love to be fiscally liberal, but just can't afford it!! I believe in equality, but the reality of home owning and all that shit is that you have to look after you and yours until you are wealthy enough not to worry about it. Its the middle and lower middle class who suffer currently because on paper they appear wealthy, but in reality they usually are living up to their means. Buying a house/paying back Uni debt has really opened my eyes to lots of things I would have dismissed as selfishness before.

I am in fact starting to think that Labour might be a better placed vote for me. At least until Lib Dems sort their act out. I'm torn!!

Not sure I'd describe a party who ban fox hunting and introduce ID cards as socially liberal tho?!

Funko
20-04-2005, 11:35:45
It's not that you are too poor to be fiscally liberal, you are earning too much. If you were poor enough it would be making you money not costing you more. :)

I was suggesting them as a half way house, midway on both...

It's pretty liberating if you are a fox but yes the ID card thing is a total bollocks. If not only just because the technology is so unproven it's going to be a total waste of money. :)

DevilsH@lo
20-04-2005, 11:39:37
I'm a slightly above average earner, but thats shit all in the South East, therefore I may as well be poor, squeeze out a few sprogs, get a free house and sit back.

hmmm... not sure about the technology bit actually. We're involved in that and the technology is actually pretty hot, the problem is more that they can't afford the hot stuff so will probably go with low grade bollocks.

Funko
20-04-2005, 11:42:52
Slightly above average for people in full time employment, there is a huge proportion of the population that isn't.


It's pretty good technology but it's pretty cutting edge and has never been implemented on that scale before. Plus government IT projects in recent times have been unbelievably overbudget and many haven't even got going. All the industry press I've seen is basically laughing their heads off at the cost estimates...

DevilsH@lo
20-04-2005, 11:48:56
Yep, they don't know what they want, thats why they get us involved- to tell them. Good opportunity for us to flog product though. We're doing really well with biometrics in embassies at the moment. One of their dilemmas is what to put on the chip. Potentially it could be an all seeing eye as far as crossing borders etc goes, but that would cost loads and be hard to implement cost wise, so they'll doubtless go for some half arsed shit that will mean nothing more than your passport. WHich we already produce.

Provost Harrison
20-04-2005, 11:51:39
I think the national ID card scheme is a complete folly. I don't agree with it and certainly do not agree with the sheer cost of it, and for what exactly? How am I going to feel a benefit from this from being able to be spot checked for going about my business? And it's going to reflect on the budget as the cost is staggering!

And property prices, well, it's not just the South East either, look at how much the prices in the North have gone up too, and bear in mind people earn a lot less money there too...it would be one hell of struggle for me to be able to afford to buy a place...

DevilsH@lo
20-04-2005, 11:54:03
Its a sop to squeamish little englanders

still I might get a decent pay rise :D

Greg W
20-04-2005, 11:56:16
Yes, more pay for Hamster minders!

Provost Harrison
20-04-2005, 11:58:47
There also seems to be an element of artificiality in this current property market...projects often seem slow to get started if at all and things like building height restrictions which need to be reconsidered in large urban areas. I am not advocating the construction of the 60s tower blocks but like the larger apartment building in Docklands for example to be more common...in reality we need >1m new homes, and with the correct use of brownfield land and building up we should be able to meet it...

Greg W
20-04-2005, 12:01:27
Prices getting high? Welcome to the property market in most major cities around the world. Sydney's the same, the average worker can barely afford to buy a place, and in 5-10 years probably won't be able to.

I'd be surprised if it's much different in most places...

Gary
20-04-2005, 12:41:01
Local Income tax is like a poll tax

The major difference is that it is not a flat rate, which was the big argument against the poll tax. It is supposed to be proportional to the ability to pay, although with the figures I got out of that site, that seems a little questionable to me.

I still need to check against the existing situation tonight, but I think this option may have changed appearance from, "That's Good", to, "You Must Be Joking".

damned page twos !

Dyl Ulenspiegel
20-04-2005, 12:51:57
Originally posted by Greg W
Prices getting high? Welcome to the property market in most major cities around the world. Sydney's the same, the average worker can barely afford to buy a place, and in 5-10 years probably won't be able to.


We're in for a global real estate bust in the next years.