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MattHiggs
13-02-2005, 11:05:07
Just ordered this online, should get it in a day or two. Anyone have any experience of the game? Is it any good?

MDA
13-02-2005, 15:29:31
I'm sure Shiny is playing. There's a thread about it somewhere down the list.

Mightytree
13-02-2005, 16:43:24
It's good. You'll enjoy it.

Thread on EQ2 and WoW (http://www.counterglow.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24326)

HelloKitty
14-02-2005, 04:18:58
I don't know how Shiney is still playing it. I got tired of WoW faster than COH, and am even done with EQ2.

Sims 2 >> both of them.

Asher
14-02-2005, 06:52:51
It's awesome, and way better than COH, EQ2, and the Sims 2.

HelloKitty has no penis, don't listen to her.

Vincent
16-02-2005, 13:46:14
I played it. It's quite cool, somtimes a little too repitative. Too many quest like "get # of ...", hunting animals etc. A lot of running around, Ultima style. Excellent graphics (fast, unique style).
Be sure not to log in at german servers, it's more like a chatroom.
Fun ...

Darkstar
16-02-2005, 16:50:38
Actually, HK is slanted macho a good bit. Her favorite hobbies include things like beating up Korean kids with a wooden sword, practicing being a ninja when no one is looking, creating huge harems in Sims/Sims 2, pretending to be Arnold when her girlfriend is looking at her, <Tim Allen>More power! More power! More power! Ew ew ew! (grunt!) (grunt!) (grunt!)</Tim Allen>.

Unlike Asher, who likes style over substance, and drives a hairdresser's car because he thinks he looks good in it (ie, he's an accessory for his car!).

Listen to the Kitty! Don't listen to Ash! Kitty chases tail, Ash wishes he was tail. ;)

King_Ghidra
16-02-2005, 17:16:24
haven't played either eq2 or wow but i would pick wow for its graphical style if nothing else

the engish gaming mags have given it very good reviews

MattHiggs
16-02-2005, 21:00:42
Just got it today, really enjoying it. It's a bit repetitive at the start like Vincent says. Lots of kill x number of monsters but I'm still learning the game so it's good practise.

I'm an Undead Mage.... FUN!

Asher
16-02-2005, 21:19:11
Originally posted by Darkstar
Actually, HK is slanted macho a good bit. Her favorite hobbies include things like beating up Korean kids with a wooden sword, practicing being a ninja when no one is looking, creating huge harems in Sims/Sims 2, pretending to be Arnold when her girlfriend is looking at her, <Tim Allen>More power! More power! More power! Ew ew ew! (grunt!) (grunt!) (grunt!)</Tim Allen>.

Unlike Asher, who likes style over substance, and drives a hairdresser's car because he thinks he looks good in it (ie, he's an accessory for his car!).

Listen to the Kitty! Don't listen to Ash! Kitty chases tail, Ash wishes he was tail. ;)
I like style over substance?

I got the Mazda 3 for its substance, the style was a bonus.

It was more reliable with more standard features than anything in its class.

If you knew anything about me, I'm all about substance. That's why I hate Apple, which is style over substance.

WoW has style and substance.

HelloKitty
16-02-2005, 22:43:39
Asher just likes WoW because the dwarf dance turns him on.

Honestly , and I have said it before, WoW is a great game and i has a huge amount of very distinct style, but it does not have substance. It is just a skin of EQ1 with the challenge turned down and all the grind and uberness removed. WoW will need to add a huge amount of content to maintain thier numbers. As it is now there is little that the player base has not finished and the game is only a few months old. WoW did a great job of dong what FFXI wanted to do, they were just smart enough to go the opposite direction. FFXI skinned EQ1, added a few things and made the game an adventure in masochism and dullness. They also did thier damndest to ruin any immersion, "NPC tells you " I WANNA GO EXP BY KILLING MONSTERS!!!". WoW went the opposite way and made the game easy to play for anyone. Want to kill anything in the game that is not raid content? Play a pally! If you want some challenge play as the horde, but even then the game is childs play. Also content for WoW is a long way off since they are still dedicating most of thier time to fixing thier DB and server problems.

The game that has the most style is definitly COH. They went for a look and feel and hit it 100% on the mark. The game is fun but has 0 substance. Thats why it is not lasting even though they are adding material like crazy.

EQ2 has a style you either love or hate since they went for an ugly bleak and realistic look. I personally like it and have never liked the shining knights and gleaming cities look. Compared to WoW it has much more depth and complexity but is much less accessable to the majority of people. EQ1 is probably the most sucessful game that was that hard to get started in, thousands of commands, thousands of factions, a huge world, only about 10% of it documented. Even now SOE says that something like 20% of the quests in the first 3 expansions have not been completed ever. They tried to fix a lot of this in EQ2 but it is still no where near as accessable as WoW. Content wise EQ2 beats WOW and COH hands down, they started with more and have already released I think 4 free new zones/dungeons, have the next expansion being programmed and soon will be releasing "modules" like the old time D&D adventure books where you can purchase a mini expansion for certain levels.

You really can't go wrong with any of these games.

For the long term newbie any game will make you happy. If you have a lot of MMO exp and are bitter about game mechanics (like the FOH, AL, and LOS EQ players that Blizzard hired to do raid content and itmeization after many were banned from EQ for exploiting) WoW is the way to go because you won't find any grind or those pesky failures. If you are not bitter and like lots of content and challenge in depth EQ2 is the way to go.

I would say play EQ1 since it has all the others beat for content, but apparently thier numbers are piss poor now.

HelloKitty
16-02-2005, 22:52:21
Originally posted by Darkstar
Actually, HK is slanted macho a good bit. Her favorite hobbies include things like beating up Korean kids with a wooden sword, practicing being a ninja when no one is looking, creating huge harems in Sims/Sims 2, pretending to be Arnold when her girlfriend is looking at her, <Tim Allen>More power! More power! More power! Ew ew ew! (grunt!) (grunt!) (grunt!)</Tim Allen>.

Unlike Asher, who likes style over substance, and drives a hairdresser's car because he thinks he looks good in it (ie, he's an accessory for his car!).

Listen to the Kitty! Don't listen to Ash! Kitty chases tail, Ash wishes he was tail. ;)

For sims 2 I am playing a cuckold challenge that if it works I will post on TS2 site as a challenge to annoy the mods.

The basic idea is to have a 10 generation female led family. Each generation must have a female child that can track thier family tree to the "Black widow" original sim.

The family cannot use any aspiration rewards except the female head. No male friends except for mating. After a female child is born the man is then trapped for the rest of his life in a small room with a fridge, bed, blocked by female only doors, and a window into the master bedroom where then the family goes about the normal lesbian affiars. The man also gets to take care of the babies! If he wants any social at all anyway.

I am on the third generation.

Mightytree
16-02-2005, 23:10:07
Originally posted by HelloKitty
Asher just likes WoW because the dwarf dance turns him on.

Honestly , and I have said it before, WoW is a great game and i has a huge amount of very distinct style, but it does not have substance. It is just a skin of EQ1 with the challenge turned down and all the grind and uberness removed. WoW will need to add a huge amount of content to maintain thier numbers. As it is now there is little that the player base has not finished and the game is only a few months old. WoW did a great job of dong what FFXI wanted to do, they were just smart enough to go the opposite direction. FFXI skinned EQ1, added a few things and made the game an adventure in masochism and dullness. They also did thier damndest to ruin any immersion, "NPC tells you " I WANNA GO EXP BY KILLING MONSTERS!!!". WoW went the opposite way and made the game easy to play for anyone. Want to kill anything in the game that is not raid content? Play a pally! If you want some challenge play as the horde, but even then the game is childs play. Also content for WoW is a long way off since they are still dedicating most of thier time to fixing thier DB and server problems.

The game that has the most style is definitly COH. They went for a look and feel and hit it 100% on the mark. The game is fun but has 0 substance. Thats why it is not lasting even though they are adding material like crazy.

EQ2 has a style you either love or hate since they went for an ugly bleak and realistic look. I personally like it and have never liked the shining knights and gleaming cities look. Compared to WoW it has much more depth and complexity but is much less accessable to the majority of people. EQ1 is probably the most sucessful game that was that hard to get started in, thousands of commands, thousands of factions, a huge world, only about 10% of it documented. Even now SOE says that something like 20% of the quests in the first 3 expansions have not been completed ever. They tried to fix a lot of this in EQ2 but it is still no where near as accessable as WoW. Content wise EQ2 beats WOW and COH hands down, they started with more and have already released I think 4 free new zones/dungeons, have the next expansion being programmed and soon will be releasing "modules" like the old time D&D adventure books where you can purchase a mini expansion for certain levels.

You really can't go wrong with any of these games.

For the long term newbie any game will make you happy. If you have a lot of MMO exp and are bitter about game mechanics (like the FOH, AL, and LOS EQ players that Blizzard hired to do raid content and itmeization after many were banned from EQ for exploiting) WoW is the way to go because you won't find any grind or those pesky failures. If you are not bitter and like lots of content and challenge in depth EQ2 is the way to go.

I would say play EQ1 since it has all the others beat for content, but apparently thier numbers are piss poor now.

Having played both WoW and EQ2 I agree with all of this. I really enjoy playing WoW, but I'm slowly approaching the point where I fear that I've seen everything. Lack of content is a real concern. Contrary to my posts in the EQ2 vs. WoW thread I now think that WoW is actually way too accessible and soloable. EQ2 had the forced-grouping overdone, in WoW it's the other way around. A mixture of both would be great.

I only played EQ2 for a month but still I realized there were lots of great things it had going for it. Overall I enjoy WoW more but I wish there was a WoW/EQ2 hybrid game somewhere on the market.

zmama
16-02-2005, 23:26:09
I'm gonna make my s-i-l very happy and play WoW ...although on the Brit servers, not the amurican ones

Darkstar
17-02-2005, 02:22:39
Originally posted by Asher
I like style over substance?

I got the Mazda 3 for its substance, the style was a bonus.

It was more reliable with more standard features than anything in its class.

If you knew anything about me, I'm all about substance. That's why I hate Apple, which is style over substance.

Total BS. Remember, you had that big bitch out with Devil's Halo? He finally went digging into your journal, where you admit you knew jack shit about cars. You only bought your car because you thought it looked cool, and that you looked great in it. We can go all Poly on this and break out that thread with his calling you out. AIR, a few of us made fun of Devil's Halo for digging through your journal to prove you knew shit about cars at the time. But, you came clean and admitted it in that thread. Maybe now you've learned a good bit about cars, but that knowledge still doesn't travel through time. :)

As for Apples, they were one of the best machines on the planet. It was Apple management and Apple handling that screwed them, and turned them into an "elistist" machine. However, these days, unless you are slamming the bits in a serious 3D game, you don't need much under the computer's hood. Intel and AMD have both admitted that. They've stated that only 3D chip makers need to worry about actual substance these days in the PC industry. For most users, the choice between Mac and IBM clones come down to content. Some things are done better on the Mac. Everything else is better and more on the PC.

Next time you want to spin, don't do it on something you've already been called out on and admitted you were wrong on before on this very board. ;)

Darkstar
17-02-2005, 02:35:14
:lol:@HK! Quite a show. Any reason you choose that particular challenge?

Asher
17-02-2005, 02:58:47
Originally posted by Darkstar
Total BS. Remember, you had that big bitch out with Devil's Halo? He finally went digging into your journal, where you admit you knew jack shit about cars. You only bought your car because you thought it looked cool, and that you looked great in it.
WTF? That's totally not what happened. He went to the journal to find out I had an automatic instead of a manual (because I had only driven an auto at the time and I didn't have any time to learn when we bought the car and had to drive it from Waterloo to Toronto on the busiest HW in North America...)

It has nothing to do with my knowledge on cars at all. You have a shit memory, old man.

The point still stands -- there's more value and substance in the Mazda 3 than any other car in its class. Feel free to prove me wrong.

Asher
17-02-2005, 03:00:23
And don't you dare lecture me on computers, Darkstar.

You write VB apps for a contracting firm -- that's like designing PowerWheel cars instead of real cars.

Darkstar
17-02-2005, 04:11:15
Lookie! Ash's feelings got hurt! And look, he's so jealous of me. :D

Dude, I do all sorts of work in all sorts of languages, both modern and dead. C, C++, C#, VB, ASP, and ASM just to name a few. I don't suppose you recognize most of those, being a deadwood carpenter ant at IBM. ;)

I can lecture you all I like, Ash. If you hadn't gotten all bitchy, I wouldn't have reminded you about your own admissions that you prefer style over substance. You act like I said you are a needle dick in front of some person you are trying to impress. Why is that?

Dude, you fessed up in that thread. He busted you, he schooled you where the "substance" is in that model of Mazda, and when you tried to spin it that is what you meant, he busted you again, by pointing out you picked the automatic and various options that aren't for "substance" or "performance driving" or anything else you had claimed. You want to go Poly? My memory is shit, but its still better then yours.

Tell you what. Go reread that thread. After you check it to make sure you are right, then bubble it up or send me a link to it in PM. I will re-read the thread, and if I'm wrong, I'll say so. Simple. How often do you get an offer like that from me?

HelloKitty
17-02-2005, 04:59:58
Originally posted by Darkstar
:lol:@HK! Quite a show. Any reason you choose that particular challenge?

Well, teh "legacy" challenge is very popular and someone posted a thread about how it was unfortunate that you couldn't adopt because that left gay people out of the challenge.

So I made evil lesbian challenge.

Asher
17-02-2005, 05:03:08
I'll tell you what, Darkstar, you're the one making the lame accusation, so the burden of proof goes on your hick-ass.

I didn't pick automatic, my dad did. I'll go through the story again:
1) I was moving 3,500km east
2) My dad came out with me, we picked up the car the day we landed (and I also got an Ontario license and insurance just before that point)
3) The car was purchased in Waterloo, ~150km south of where I needed to be for work. I needed to get my car to Markham, and the way you do that is by taking HWY 401. The 401 is the busiest highway in North America (16-lanes), and we were doing this at rushhour.
4) My dad refused to get me a manual, knowing this, because he said it takes weeks to get used to and I had merely an hour or so.

You write code in VB. No real programmer would ever do that. Ever.

I work with C, C++, Objective C, PowerPC, FORTRAN, and occasionally Cobol at work.

I deal with performance computing, not creating toys that 12-year olds could do.

Asher
17-02-2005, 07:30:01
I'm still waiting for you to assert I prefer style over substance.

The easiest way for you to do this would be to continue with your example.

Show me another 2004-model car with more substance in the same pricerange of a Mazda 3 Sport hatch.

This should be easy, no?

I bought the car for its substance, its utility, and its passing power. I did not buy it for its style, nor did I ever say or imply that, though I do love its style.

You're patently making shit up.

Greg W
17-02-2005, 08:47:47
:yawn:

Funkodrom
17-02-2005, 10:14:42
I just googled for a picture. There's no way you'd buy that for the style alone.

zmama
17-02-2005, 12:41:54
:lol:

Can you go back to arguing about the game?

King_Ghidra
17-02-2005, 13:02:09
argh! moderator!

MattHiggs
17-02-2005, 14:20:14
You should all be banned :cry:

Vincent
17-02-2005, 18:44:23
We are banned

zmama
17-02-2005, 18:48:04
Thank goodness

Asher
17-02-2005, 20:16:59
Originally posted by zmama
:lol:

Can you go back to arguing about the game?
Sure.

The WoW forums are some of the worst you'll see.

There was a nasty Paladin bug introduced in the latest patch which reduced base Paladin damage by 40% on certain character builds.

If you go to the forums, all of the Horde players are just spamming "HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA WORKING AS DESIGNED SHUT UP YOU WHINERS"...

JM^3
17-02-2005, 20:51:13
Originally posted by Asher
I'll tell you what, Darkstar, you're the one making the lame accusation, so the burden of proof goes on your hick-ass.

I didn't pick automatic, my dad did. I'll go through the story again:
1) I was moving 3,500km east
2) My dad came out with me, we picked up the car the day we landed (and I also got an Ontario license and insurance just before that point)
3) The car was purchased in Waterloo, ~150km south of where I needed to be for work. I needed to get my car to Markham, and the way you do that is by taking HWY 401. The 401 is the busiest highway in North America (16-lanes), and we were doing this at rushhour.
4) My dad refused to get me a manual, knowing this, because he said it takes weeks to get used to and I had merely an hour or so.

You write code in VB. No real programmer would ever do that. Ever.

I work with C, C++, Objective C, PowerPC, FORTRAN, and occasionally Cobol at work.

I deal with performance computing, not creating toys that 12-year olds could do.

do you use modern fortran also?

JOn Miller

HelloKitty
17-02-2005, 22:31:23
Originally posted by Asher
Sure.

The WoW forums are some of the worst you'll see.

There was a nasty Paladin bug introduced in the latest patch which reduced base Paladin damage by 40% on certain character builds.

If you go to the forums, all of the Horde players are just spamming "HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA WORKING AS DESIGNED SHUT UP YOU WHINERS"...

At least they didn't break the paladin "win" button. Now it is just slower!

LadyRachel
18-02-2005, 01:24:39
Asher sucks, Kitty sucks, Darkstar needs to go troll somewhere else if he knows what's good for him. :bash:

World of Warcraft is as good as chocolate.

Shining1
18-02-2005, 01:26:48
Yeah, my Paladin has gone from being able to comfortably defeat three guys a level above him (best is two orange melee Ogres with a yellow add) to struggling against three guys a level below him.

It's a huge nerf, so much that the Paladin is now slightly worse than the best soloing classes. But soooo slow.... and there's probably no chance of being a warlock in a duel again.


Oh, my views of WoW? I love it. I've got a bit to add to what MT and Kitty have been saying though.

Firstly, they're right in that there possibly isn't enough content to keep you going - IFF you're the kind of powergamer who wants to play for 5 hours every day without ever making a new character. WoW is deliberately tilted away from the 'loser in a basement playing EQ all day' style l33tness of previous MORPORKS. It's entirely concievable that someone who only has half a dozen hours on the weekend to indulge their inner orc will still get to level 60 in under a year.

Additionally, because the pace is so much faster in WoW, you tend to avoid the horrid 'tread mill' feeling of leveling in what seems like every other MORPORK. Naturally there's less satisfaction with having a max level character for those uberl33t losers in basements playing the game all day. Boo hoo.

Secondly, content is split between two factions, so if you want to experience the full game, you probably need two level 60 characters. (Though, to be fair, a lot of the zones used for each faction are duplicated and at the highest levels both sides are left grinding the same 'instances' for itamz - in short you won't get a 100% new experience with your Horde character after you've finished your alliance character.)

Certainly, there are a lot of bored level 60 characters at the moment, although I find it a little difficult feeling sorry for players who have mercilessly ground through the game in the first month and are now complaining that there is nothing to do. From my point of view, there is plenty of content and the world looks amazing.

(Karsten is bang on with his comment that most of the quests are samey and not nearly complex enough, but from what I've played of City of heroes and heard about EQ, this sounds par for the course in a MORPORK.)

Finally, in WoW's defense, pretty much half the game is still freaking missing. There's a reason for the two factions, and that reason is WAR. WoW has a heavy emphasis on PvP battles between the two sides, and there are meant to be Tribes/Battlefield style zones where teams of humans and orcs battle against each other to complete capture-the-flag/destroy-the-base/assassination style objectives. This is currently still in development with no release date announced.

The reasons NOT to play WoW are server stability and the 'still in beta' feeling of the class balance at the moment. Point of advice to anyone who's inclined to start the game anytime soon, do NOT play a warrior unless all you plan on doing is taking damage for large groups. Their soloing abilities leave a lot to be desired, and they can't win PvP duels. (Oh, and while the Bnet kiddies are rampant on SOME servers, you can find places to play where the people are nice and stupidity is treated as it should be. Stay the fuck off Bronzebeard, for instance.)

I get the feeling that WoW is a more ambitious project than EQ, less of a MORPORK and more of a Battlefield style game with a good quality MORPORK added on.

zmama
18-02-2005, 02:35:21
Originally posted by LadyRachel
Asher sucks, Kitty sucks, Darkstar needs to go troll somewhere else if he knows what's good for him. :bash:

World of Warcraft is as good as chocolate.

Even for your mother? ;

Asher
18-02-2005, 03:46:17
Originally posted by JM^3
do you use modern fortran also?

JOn Miller
Yes, of course.

We develop the most advanced Fortran compiler, which also happens to be the fastest.

http://www-306.ibm.com/software/awdtools/fortran/

Full Fortran 77, 90, and 95 support, and the Industry's most complete 2003 Draft Standard support.

JM^3
18-02-2005, 04:52:43
I hate anything older than fortran 90



JOn Miller
(Reason why I asked)

JM^3
18-02-2005, 04:55:24
better than digital compatc visual hellsh fortract?

M

LadyRachel
19-02-2005, 07:19:35
Originally posted by zmama
Even for your mother? ;

WoW >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sacred and Dungeon Siege.

Vincent
19-02-2005, 21:21:07
Everyone who likes walking around a lot will love WoW. Everyone who hates counting will hate it. I mean: a lot of quests are like "bring 12 whatevers"!

zmama
19-02-2005, 21:47:35
That doesn't sound like chocolate

Shining1
19-02-2005, 21:51:32
Yes but they do the counting for you.... :/

lightblue
20-02-2005, 11:07:22
Having quite a bit of fun with it. Lvl34 Shaman on EU Ravencrest, just started heading into Scarlet Monastery.

Darkstar
22-02-2005, 23:20:01
Originally posted by Asher
I'll tell you what, Darkstar, you're the one making the lame accusation, so the burden of proof goes on your hick-ass.

You write code in VB. No real programmer would ever do that. Ever.

I work with C, C++, Objective C, PowerPC, FORTRAN, and occasionally Cobol at work.

I deal with performance computing, not creating toys that 12-year olds could do.

Dude, you write shit. Anyone can write performance. That's a matter of tuning. Hell, software TOYS can tell you were to gain power. Hell, there are Open Source code to tune and security audit at the same time.

Anyone that really wants to write performance, writes in ASM, plasticman. Again, you show you don't even know shit about what people pay you to know. Every step away from it, is lost performance. When was the last time you were paid to do ASM? When was the last time you broke into ASM to really optimize performance?

Performance? That's where the big companies put the deadwits in hope the young ones brains wake up, and to let the old timers finish out their time. Why? It's simple. Let's say you optimize and tune up the performance of a network service so that it saves 12 whooping cycles in a critical function that is going to be called at least 400,000 times a day on your client's setup. That's a lot of cycles saved isn't it? But guess what? You aren't going to impress anyone with that feat of Code-fu. Why? Because that's why they run the software on 64 parallel CPU or across a cluster! Let's say you tweak a connection/exchange/network packet trip to go from 120 to 12. You still aren't going to get a gold star... because that's why they just pile on the bandwidth. Machines get faster, bandwidth gets cheaper. Every year, performance goes up, without a coder changing a line of code, or making a slicker algorithm. Performance hasn't actually mattered in years, unless you are simulating nuclear explosions. You weren't out at Los Alamos, last I heard. Did I miss an update?

I haven't written anything in VB in almost 5 years now. I have been in the lands of C, C++ for most of the last 5 years, like most of my professional career. Recently (that's the last 2 years), I've been sliding into the MS .NET world, primarily the C#.

You are the bland wonder that stated that Kitty doesn't have a dick, so she can't know anything about anything. You are the one putting forward claims with no basis in reality.

The fact that you haven't posted a link or sent me one to the thread shows you know I am correct. Change your story all you like, it doesn't change history, Ash. You should learn to just live with your own embarassments, rather then stay in denial. It just draws attention to things you don't like. Of course, it does get you attention, so I suppose that's all you care about now.

Remember, it's workers like you that cause IBM to hire contract scum like me to do the serious work when the company finally wants to make their deadlines and produce a working product. That's what I did, before I decided to take a steady paycheck from NASA to keep a roof over my mum's head. I was the contract scum that rolled in, got the job done on time, and rolled out, leaving you permanent deadwoods to pine that you could have done the same, if only you had more time, better equipment, management that left you alone, and half a brain.

Was that enough loving for you, Ash? You do seem to prefer spitting and handbag slapping. Just want you to feel loved. You seemed to be asking for it.

Darkstar
23-02-2005, 00:32:10
Originally posted by LadyRachel
Asher sucks, Kitty sucks, Darkstar needs to go troll somewhere else if he knows what's good for him.

When have I ever known what was good for me? Besides, Ash started the troll. I'm just trying to be kind and give him a hug in the only form he understands.

I'd trust Kitty long before Ash on, well, just about anything. Ash has a very limited band of knowledge. And that doesn't seem to include very many games. He rarely discusses games, when he does its usually "it just sucks" or "This is the greatest game since hand jobs!". Nothing else.

Kitty has shared with us her opinions on games. Often. We know alot about her tastes. She's played lots of games, and talked about them plenty. If she says a game sucks, and doesn't state why, someone just needs to ask her, and you practically get a thesis paper on why she doesn't like it. And she does like games. It's not just a warts only deal with her. It's often a "good and bad" deal.

I just wasn't inclined to let Ash's "Gotta have a dick to know anything" comment slide. Not in this context. I suppose I should have, but what's done is done.

Shining1
23-02-2005, 02:45:30
At the highest level in the MORPORK genre, I'd agree that Kitty's word is basically lore here.

At the same time, I've mastered enough games myself to know that the hardcore perspective isn't the whole story. She's also curiously quiet on the whole PvP side of things, and generally dislikes 'twitch' gaming IIRC.

Everyone knows about Ash, there's honestly no call to feed the trolls. Exceptions probably made in this thread since you are both hitting so well, it's actually a very good fight. =)

HelloKitty
23-02-2005, 03:17:07
Yeah, I have never like FPS. Some twitch games are alright and even good, but the shooters I have always hated.

MOO pvp is about as least twitch/fps as you can get though.

There isn't much to say about PVP yet. The system is incomplete. The classes are unbalanced, and unfortunatly, there has never been a MMO other than Neocron that did PVP really well, and that was because it was a MMO/FPS (and I hated it).

I played both on the gay server in EQlive and on Sullon Zek, the "no rules" pvp server, where there was no such thing as cheating, harassment, etc. I also PVPed like crazy in SWG (until the doc/food buffs were raised to insane levels and stackers took over), and although I got bored of it DAOC which was all about PVP.

EQ2 has no pvp at all and no plans to add it. Why? MMO pvp has never worked. It has always been an unbalanced gank fest in every game. WOW has done nothing special to fix the many issues with MMO pvp, and their pvp servers in beta and from what I hear in live are bnet style freakshows.

I will reserve my comments on WOW pvp for when it is done.

EQ2 has come up with an interesting idea for reallm vs realm though. They are doing quests where you have to do do X and it lowers the something for the opposing team, like exp gain bonuses etc. I don't know if it is in the game yet since I have not played recently.

Now, the game that I am excited about for PVP is the COH expansion COV. Their next expansion will include an arena where you can set up solo, random, team, tourneys, etc with tracking of rankings etc. They are using this to balance PVP before COV comes out.

COV will have special PVP. A villain can take a mission, say to rob a bank, and a hero can take a mission to try to stop him. NCsoft/cryptic has learned a lot of lessons from thier pvp abortion lineage/lineage 2 (with member numbers ranking in the millions).

I got my pre-beta notice for COV! It will actually get me to log back on to COH for the first time in a long while.

Asher
23-02-2005, 05:14:52
Originally posted by Darkstar
Dude, you write shit. Anyone can write performance. That's a matter of tuning. Hell, software TOYS can tell you were to gain power. Hell, there are Open Source code to tune and security audit at the same time.

Anyone that really wants to write performance, writes in ASM, plasticman. Again, you show you don't even know shit about what people pay you to know. Every step away from it, is lost performance. When was the last time you were paid to do ASM? When was the last time you broke into ASM to really optimize performance?
You're talking out of your ass.

Our customers are the people who do real performance computing. You want me to name names? Oh, how about BlueGene? How about Cell? How about every-single-supercomputer using POWER or PowerPC on the Top500 list?

It is not realistic to write programs in assembler. And even then, honestly -- it's usually not as fast as C/Fortran code with a highly-intelligent compiler. I'm sure you'll disagree with this -- what with your impressive credentials of visual basic programming behind you -- but the real boys who do this thing do not. Make no mistake -- the computer scientists that make up our prominent customers have PhDs in scientific computing and the like. They write the software at LLNL and LLBL, they write the Boeing simulator software...they write all of the crash simulator the major automakers use.

In the real world with real high-performance computing, people use C and Fortran with an excellent compiler.

And there are simply no compilers on this planet that compete on the same level as the IBM XL compilers. Feel free to prove me wrong, dig up benchmarks.

XL C 7.0 for Linux is 30% faster than gcc 3.4 for Linux, both with all optimizations enabled in SPEC. That's huge. GCC 3.6 is finally implementing optimization techniques developed by IBM 8 years ago in C/C++ 3/4.0.

Performance? That's where the big companies put the deadwits in hope the young ones brains wake up, and to let the old timers finish out their time. Why? It's simple. Let's say you optimize and tune up the performance of a network service so that it saves 12 whooping cycles in a critical function that is going to be called at least 400,000 times a day on your client's setup. That's a lot of cycles saved isn't it? But guess what? You aren't going to impress anyone with that feat of Code-fu. Why? Because that's why they run the software on 64 parallel CPU or across a cluster!
Dude, you are so far out of your league here and you don't even know it. I'm not talking about little dinky 64-bit systems -- those are actually <em>the norm</em> for the cases I see. When companies spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a computer with <em>thousands</em> of processors, even 5% is huge to them. The market is extremely competitive, and there is a simple reason why Power/PowerPC are on a HUGE dominating trend on the Top500 supercomputer list. It's a deadly combo of an awesome chip (Power5) and industry-best compiler (XL). And that's why IBM announces new supercomputer wins all the time, and that's why the revenue/profit for that division is booming.

Thank God they don't take your advice.

You are the bland wonder that stated that Kitty doesn't have a dick, so she can't know anything about anything. You are the one putting forward claims with no basis in reality.
You're the one without any ability to recognize a joke or sarcasm...

The fact that you haven't posted a link or sent me one to the thread shows you know I am correct.
You're the idiot that brought it up, the onus is on your sorry ass. The fact that you can't back up what you're saying, which happens to be a flat-out lie, shows you just how wrong you are -- how pathetic you are.

Remember, it's workers like you that cause IBM to hire contract scum like me to do the serious work when the company finally wants to make their deadlines and produce a working product.
You have to be kidding me...

Contractors are second-class employees. They have a special badget with a big yellow bar saying "CONTRACTOR" on it since they lack the same access to source code regular employees get. Hell, they don't even work on the development team.

Contractors work on our test team, running automated tests...and that's because they're cheaper and don't require any benefit pay. ;)

The really good contractors get hired on as full-timers after and moved into better roles -- my "connections coach"/mentor at work started as a contractor 10 years ago in test...

Asher
23-02-2005, 05:19:23
And to complete the ownage... the link to the thread you talked about: http://www.counterglow.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21448

Nowhere in the entire thing do I say I bought the car because I looked nice in it, or because of its styling.

In fact, if you had any kind of reading comprehension skill in addition to your l33t high-performance scripting language experience, you'd realize I even was very much arguing against the idea that it was bought for image alone:
You look like an idiot when you're talking that it's all image

You can post a retraction here in this thread, followed by an apology.

Asher
23-02-2005, 05:26:26
Oldtimers like you are feeling the crunch, Darkstar. You're not with it like us young'uns.

When you went to school, you were taught ASM is best for high-performance code. Compilers have advanced very much since then, and for everyone but the epic, one-in-a-million programmers, an optimizing compiler will generate better, faster code for a decent sized app.

Your knowledge from school is obsolete, and your work experience breeds bad practice because you don't realize the situation and circumstances have changed.

Darkstar
23-02-2005, 08:40:56
I know all about it, skeezer. We've had this talk before...

When I am contracted for coding, it wasn't to do the test plans. :D Management always hires out to do the job that their own can't do. You know that, as we've had this convo before. The fun part is if you ever cross over from the Big Turd that they contracted with for tons of money to a perm position. You go from God of all Code to just another team-member. Management goes back to hiring outsiders "to do the job". Quite a culture shock the first few times that happens.

Let's see... you just made my point on performance. You don't do ASM. You don't get close. It's too much for your wee little brain to trouble with. The Big Brains don't do ASM. Its too much for their Big Brains to be wasted on. Everyone lets their tools do the real optimization. We just give it general instructions, they (Compiler, Core, OS, and all the layers in between) each take their own little swipe at optimizing the order to implement things, as they see fit. That's why almost no one does ASM anymore. The tech is doing the optimizing. So what is it you do? Are you helping the tech? Or just looking for idiotic decisions/mistakes in other peoples code? ;)

C is going out of style, if you haven't noticed. It's got another 10, 15 years left in it tops, and it will turn into the "Well, hardcore coders that want power/performance use C</snob>".

Watch the power curve. IBM itself has stated that big computing is out. The future will be dinky 64 bit systems that are formed into super clusters on that fly, and that you rent time on, so if you need another 32 CPUs of grid/cluster power, you'll get it automatically to meet your computing spikes. Of course, then, actual optimization will become important, as you are charged by the MIP. If you can shave off a few MIPs, that will reduce your actual costs. But so long as you OWN the hardware, or rent it in huge chunks, it really doesn't matter if you shave a percent off. The more you use the hardware, the more cost effective the hardware costs metric *look* to management. That's why performance doesn't matter *now*.

You still aren't gaining 5% performance bonus, unless someone did something incredibly stupid, or built in "extraneous wait loops" to be removed specifically so you create a performance increase over enhancements. Humm... I've seen that done in some *big* places, including IBM, now that I think about this.

Anyways, I've done that work, Ash. It's for the wee ones and the worn out. Eventually, I'll be back to doing it again. :D But I've got plenty of years of other coding ahead of me. And most of that will be in C and "management perceived" descandents of that. Although I will have to do the occasional "lending a hand" with other things. Doesn't make me the world's leading guru in those things. Just our section's. ;)

As for school... Dude, as a coder, you are always in school. Not that you generally learn anything USEFUL. Not very often. But to be a coder, is to be a perpetual student. Just how it goes.

Lessons for you to remember: Work always breeds bad practices. That's why it is WORK. You'll never have the time to do all "best practices", so you'll have to learn what fits your available time, your project resources, and target environment. Every shop has a different emphasis, and that emphasis changes as management learns new buzzwords. Watch the old timers, see what they do, and find out WHY... some of that is probably still good, but a lot of it will just be because thats what they are comfortable with.

I'll check the thread, since you posted the link. I'll say I was wrong, if it turns out I was. But you won't get an apology. Not unless your feelings got hurt. Did your feelings actually get hurt? If they did, you should PM me, and I'll apologize for that. But me being wrong here, that's just the sun coming up. You should know that by now.

Have you got a full dose of loving lumps yet, or should we take this to the tech forum and let Lady Rachel and Shining1 have their WoW thread uninterrupted any further by these macho virtual hugs?

Darkstar
23-02-2005, 08:52:13
Originally posted by Asher
When you went to school, you were taught ASM is best for high-performance code.

Bullshit. When I went to school, all we had were 1s. The 0 hadn't been invented yet. And we had to walk to school, in our bare feet, cause we hadn't invented shoes yet! And it was 100 miles, uphill, both ways, in the deep snow cause the universe hadn't evolved downhill or summer yet!

These damn whippersnappers these days!

Sir Penguin
23-02-2005, 09:13:43
4 miles isn't that much.

Of course, then, actual optimization will become important, as you are charged by the MIP
The Million Instructions Per? Never heard of it.

And for those of you who aren't following the argument, Darkstar's wrong (own goal).

SP

Darkstar
23-02-2005, 10:22:04
Just read your thread. You state that you picked that car because you liked its styling, Ash. And DH owns you in that thread, despite your best squirming.

Some funny comments by the peanut gallery in that thread though.

Darkstar
23-02-2005, 10:26:32
SP, it's Million Instructions Performed. It's the common current proposed "renting metric" for renting computing power "from the grid" from what I've seen spread about on the Net so far.

What in particular do you believe I'm wrong on in this thread? That Kitty has shared more about her thoughts on games with us? Or you just trying to be funny and having a bad start tonight?

Asher
23-02-2005, 15:54:47
Originally posted by Darkstar
Just read your thread. You state that you picked that car because you liked its styling, Ash.
You're still a fucking moron incapable of reading.

The point repeatedly driven in that thread was the car provided the best value and best performance in its price class, and that I also liked its styling.

This does not imply that I bought it because I liked its styling.

Somebody needs to go back to school.

Asher
23-02-2005, 16:01:26
Originally posted by Darkstar
Let's see... you just made my point on performance. You don't do ASM. You don't get close. It's too much for your wee little brain to trouble with. The Big Brains don't do ASM. Its too much for their Big Brains to be wasted on. Everyone lets their tools do the real optimization. We just give it general instructions, they (Compiler, Core, OS, and all the layers in between) each take their own little swipe at optimizing the order to implement things, as they see fit. That's why almost no one does ASM anymore. The tech is doing the optimizing. So what is it you do? Are you helping the tech? Or just looking for idiotic decisions/mistakes in other peoples code? ;)
I help with the tech and I look for idiotic decisions/mistakes in other people's code.

C is going out of style, if you haven't noticed. It's got another 10, 15 years left in it tops, and it will turn into the "Well, hardcore coders that want power/performance use C</snob>".
It may fall out of favor, especially in most apps, but not for high-performance computing. Hell, FORTRAN is as popular as C++ here. It doesn't matter if it goes out of style, when they generate some of the fastest "high" level code around.

Watch the power curve. IBM itself has stated that big computing is out. The future will be dinky 64 bit systems that are formed into super clusters on that fly, and that you rent time on, so if you need another 32 CPUs of grid/cluster power, you'll get it automatically to meet your computing spikes. Of course, then, actual optimization will become important, as you are charged by the MIP. If you can shave off a few MIPs, that will reduce your actual costs. But so long as you OWN the hardware, or rent it in huge chunks, it really doesn't matter if you shave a percent off. The more you use the hardware, the more cost effective the hardware costs metric *look* to management. That's why performance doesn't matter *now*.
You're a retard. :)

I get customers like Oracle bitching when there's a 1-2% performance drop in TPC benchmarks with a fixpack, raising all kinds of hell.

Then here you are telling me performance doesn't matter now. ;)

Darkstar
23-02-2005, 18:59:33
Ash, you probably want to lose that thread. Permanently. He owned you so bad, I should be asking him permission to even talk to DevilH@lo's personal, owned to the bone Gimp prop.

You claimed a lot of things. But he tore you down on all of it. The only point you ever won on was "well, name me something I could get for $15 Canadian then" "Damn! That little? A go-cart is all that would get you here for that. I don't know shit about no Canadian models".

BUT... you admitted you bought it in your quoted journal for styling, styling, styling. You claiming "Styling" is now substance"? You can try to recast that to mean "it meets all my needs adequately" rather then the English meaning of: "Looks, looks, looks", but no one is buying. Not even you. Here's a suggestion... Try telling the lie of "I was excited about owning my first car, and that made me feel like king of the bling bling then! I was high on life, just tooling down the road!". People will buy into that. Anyone with first time owner experience, anyways. ;) It don't matter what the first car is, people usually form a bond with it. Even if it's a love/hate thing.

No... the point of the thread is that he owned your ass. You tried to squirm, and he'd bust you on it. Repeatily. Then at the end, to just to finish the super-slow burn, he busts you on your own "Common Knowledge" petards and lieing frequently and often in that thread. Your words were "I bought it for styling". So either you lied in your journal, or you lied afterward. Which is it? That's what is killing your credibility.

Lets look at this, chronically. Seems you bought it for "styling". Then "for its best performance of price range". Then for "hatchback, AC, cruise control, cause I got to live in it going cross country so much". Did I miss any statements of yours in the history of Asher and the ballad of his car? You know dude, people do sometimes change their mind why they love something. That's fair play. I'd expect you've decided you prefer some stuff on your car over what you first thought, especially if you've been driving it cross country a good bit. That's natural as well. But your own history is "I bought it for its styling" and then all the rest fills in. Ergo, your own original main motivation/attraction was it was the best stylin to your likin in your range. Indeed, you state that in the thread!

I've never, ever heard a gear head or even a a rice-rocket jockey ever refer to the substance (engine, maintenence, road performance) as styling. Styling is the paint, the bling bling, and the tricks to make you comfortable and make you look cool to the hoes. Neon Under Lights is styling. A multi-CD changer in the back is styling. Putting in air bag suspension so you can make it hop in front of the hoes is styling. Getting the 2.3 engine over the 2.0 isn't.

If your hair be stylin, you using product on it to get a particular look, not using Roegaine to get more hair. Nor to keep it out of your eyes so you can rag on the fucktards and lazywits of CG. So, are you still stylin, or have you grown out of that already?

Asher
23-02-2005, 19:06:23
Originally posted by Darkstar
You claimed a lot of things. But he tore you down on all of it. The only point you ever won on was "well, name me something I could get for $15 Canadian then" "Damn! That little? A go-cart is all that would get you here for that. I don't know shit about no Canadian models".
I said the entire time I bought it because it was the best deal -- most standard features, best performance, and best styling in its class where I live.

The fact that DH tried to "pwn" me about my car choice while knowing jack-shit about the cars available in my market is where he lost -- and amusingly enough, that's what the argument was actually about.

He said I could've bought a better new car for my money, and I asked him to prove it. He didn't, he couldn't, he was pwn3d.

BUT... you admitted you bought it in your quoted journal for styling, styling, styling.
I never said such a thing, why do you keep asserting it? My intent and opinion is patently clear from that thread.

You're patently making shit up, and I'm telling you point-blank I've never said that crap. First you say link the thread to prove it...now I did, and now you still won't shut up about it.

Learn to read, buddy.

Your words were "I bought it for styling". So either you lied in your journal, or you lied afterward. Which is it? That's what is killing your credibility.
I've never, ever, said "I bought it for styling" -- which is what your entire fucking argument here is based off of.

That's what is killing your credibility. It is absolutely baffling to me that you can be this stupid.

Asher
23-02-2005, 19:09:10
You're an old man who posts long threads hoping to lose people's interest to hide just how little you know what you're talking about.

Anyone with reading comprehension skills can laugh their ass off at your basing a lengthy argument off of a comment I've never said, and anyone with computer skills can laugh their ass off at your fundamental ideas about modern computing.

You're so out of touch with reality that it's not even funny anymore.

Darkstar
23-02-2005, 19:14:32
Originally posted by Asher
It may fall out of favor, especially in most apps, but not for high-performance computing. Hell, FORTRAN is as popular as C++ here. It doesn't matter if it goes out of style, when they generate some of the fastest "high" level code around.

You're a retard. :)

I get customers like Oracle bitching when there's a 1-2% performance drop in TPC benchmarks with a fixpack, raising all kinds of hell.

It's the way the industry is headed for serious computing apps. It's been drifting away from C for decades now. As the tech advances, the older stuff gets left behind or mutates into something completely different. No biggie.

Hell, there's some great Cobol compilers that make some really tight and fast high level code. Don't mean squat. ;)

A retard? Hey, I was tested, and found not to qualify as a retard! Maybe an idiot savant, they said. But damned if they knew what I was a savant on. ;)

Yeah, but Oracle is offloading its issues to you. Hell, Oracle is 10 years behind all the other major databases (well, discounting MS), so they need to shift the blame off their shoulders to somewhere else. We bitch to Oracle about its performance all the time, but that's just us giving the bastards static while making sure we use up our support quota every year so we can get it renewed for the next. In comes in handy, having support, for those cases when something IMPORTANT comes around. ;) Like getting their latest kernal to work on our latest *Nix boxes. The docs are always out of date, and there's always that gotcha that hangs up the poor DB Admins and IT Techs until management decides they should just call it in to find out what one little bool needs to be swapped from false to true... or other way round, before it will work on that particular hardware. :rolleyes:

Asher
23-02-2005, 19:19:57
The fact that you just admitted you bitch to Oracle about performance kinda puts a spear through the heart of your "performance doesn't matter" argument, doesn't it?

Darkstar
23-02-2005, 19:27:39
Dude, you are in total denial.

He asked you if you couldn't have found something better in that class or stepped up. You went off on him to find you better in Canada. You guys were having that wee little spat at the time, due to you and AngelHorns having been engaged in all that fore-play prior to that particular thread. He obviously got jealous of that, and had to show Angel who was alpha. Maybe you missed the commentary about all that? Got that many people on ignore?

You've just repeated several times you bought it for styling. Are you unaware of what you write, even when you keep repeating it? First time you talk about your car, you say what? Styling. It being the best fit for style, money, features, and performance is an evolution of your positions. That's not your first actual statement about your car. Your first statement in that thread is it's a best fit for your money, but that isn't the chronology of your own statements, Ash.

If you can patent it, go for it. Then you can afford something that will make DH and BGH drool in envy. ;)

Darkstar
23-02-2005, 19:37:10
No. I told you we do it just to use up our unused tech support at the end of the contract year. That's the stupid bureaucracy forcing us to use it or lose it. If we don't use up our block of serious incidences, we will lose them to other divisions. And then our management has to suck extra dick to get them back when we actually need them. If they are even available...

It's just budget stupidity. We also bitch to Oracle that they aren't case sensitive on passwords even when you set the kernal to be case sensitive. And that you cannot use "Oracle special characters" in passwords. We've got a standing set of complaints to call in and open tickets on, the week before the yearly audits on our support. It's just that budget stupidity forcing behavior... to preserve our budget (in whatever "bucket" it is divided), we spend it every year, regardless of any particular budgetting realities (costs saved, outside business contracts, change in training, less vendor support used for a particular year, etc). Otherwise, we lose that money in the next year's budget. It's basic bureacratic bullshit.

Asher
23-02-2005, 20:41:52
Originally posted by Darkstar
Dude, you are in total denial.

He asked you if you couldn't have found something better in that class or stepped up. You went off on him to find you better in Canada.
No, he said I could have found something better in that class. He didn't back it up. He was pwn3d, not me...

You've just repeated several times you bought it for styling. Are you unaware of what you write, even when you keep repeating it? First time you talk about your car, you say what? Styling. It being the best fit for style, money, features, and performance is an evolution of your positions.
It's a combination, 'tard, not an evolution. Jesus christ, I want to smack you with an oversized dildo and feed it to your mother.

That's not your first actual statement about your car. Your first statement in that thread is it's a best fit for your money, but that isn't the chronology of your own statements, Ash.
The problem here is you have the IQ of a retarded peanut. I listed a bunch of things I loved about the car, you took one and tried to tell me that single reason is why I bought the car.

I am seriously unable to fathom how someone so stupid could grow to be such an old, irrelevant, clusterfuck of a geek impostor.

Asher
23-02-2005, 20:43:43
Originally posted by Darkstar
No. I told you we do it just to use up our unused tech support at the end of the contract year.
While it's nice to know your organization can't afford a real support contract, that's not how it works around here. Our customers are entitled to support for periods of time, not quantity or usage amounts.

The simple fact is our customers care about performance. In fact, most enterprise customers care about performance.

You're totally out to lunch on this.

Asher
23-02-2005, 20:45:25
The amusing part of the whole car thing is you and DH are both stupid in equally stunning ways: DH made the case that I thought the car was the fastest thing ever, and you made the case that I thought the car was the sexiest thing ever.

You're both totally wrong, and completely stupid.

Greg W
23-02-2005, 22:53:51
:yawn: :yawn: :yawn: :yawn: :yawn:

The Mad Monk
23-02-2005, 23:06:22
I don't know...perhaps we should send this thread to the goat boys, so they can see what a proper troll/flame fest is all about.

zmama
23-02-2005, 23:13:57
Willie waving?

Darkstar
23-02-2005, 23:22:05
Yawn. Incorrect. Trying to spin it off to straw men. Again. You should know better. DH never stated that he believed you thought your car was the fastest thing ever. I made the case that you have stated that you picked that car based on styling. Your own initial statements about your car have shown that to be exactly correct. What are you, egyptian? Thinking of immigrating?

Your very first statement about your car you ever made public was what, Ash? Let's review... "Styling". You don't evolve why you like it until later in your life. That's your history, wantapee. Accept your history and move on.

You are in the state of total denial. I know from experience that they have a really sweet beach, and great $1 margaritia nights every Tuesday and Thursday. You should check it out. ;) DH didn't start the case you thought it was a fast car. He jabbed at you, while asking your blinded ass why you chose that car. You bit on that line, and hard, making vague noises about style and cost and performance (which is where the two of you went off on the drive fast and do rally and trying to drive into buses sub lines). He did state he felt that Mazda (the company and most of its cars) have a styling over substance image. Angel injected the "that's a hairdressers car and company" comment, just to piss you off from the looks of it. But strangely, you agreed with them! Even from the first of that monster thread, styling is very important to you. You swish about, darting from performance to merely "performance oriented", then dart to onto maintainance records, over to features that make the car a good fit for you and how they are specifically useful or just nice, and of course, go back to price. But you only remain steady on two things throughout that thread about your vehicle--- styling and your price range. Do you honestly think you emphasize different elements? What? How much you won't back down from a poster's boyfriend? How you think you can piss as long as anyone else on this forum?

You want to talk about I cannot take a joke? You missed tons and continue to do so.

In that thread, DH gave you chances to just walk away, but you kept coming back for more sweet owning action from him. That whole thread is a demonstration of why you should never, ever post more then twice on a single topic in a thread.

The truth is that enterprises don't give a shit about performance. That's how the real world works. You know, out there where those businesses IBM is trying to fleece for a few extra bucks, and lock into their platform and its tools for life are. 99.9999999% of the time, performance won't ever matter to an enterprise customer. By the time a customer figures out that they have a bottle neck that could be improved that might be advantageous to them, and that they may need help isolating if it is some bit of your provided code/product or just their own idiotic implementation/configuration, they'll generally have moved on their config/hardware/network. That will very often shift the performance parameters which changes the performance pinches. Its all the same behaviour out of management regardless of the size of the business or the application or system. The same feet dragging--- cause management is hoping the next little upgrade or make operable will cause it to go away. And it sometimes does.

Real support? Dude, I work for NASA. We are lucky they don't have us on abacuses! :D However, surprisingly enough, we've got real support. I can probably get your bosses to send you here to suck my dick as a special on-site contractor if I wanted to go file an incident and follow it through. The Lord of Code knows we can get all the Oracle and MS and Sun and even HP devs out here to do so. Last I heard, we should have the equivalent support level from IBM. Why we bother, I haven't a clue. It's always a waste of everyone's time to bring vendor devs on-site. But it seems to make management feel like they did something constructive. Everyone just works around the idiots from the vendors. And yes, everyone that works for your vendors are always idiots because they never know what they are talking about (in the customer's context). Ever. That is the only context that matters, no matter how fucked it is. And it is invariably very, very fucked. ;)

You still haven't gotten out of the stroller yet. Real companies book a service contract. Then management decides how to ration it out. It makes management feel special, deciding what and when to give it out, even if there is only 1 person to give it to, and it was bought exclusively for that 1 person! Then, it's a budget item. When something is a budget item, it has a budget quota. Don't use your quota, and the bean counters or management will (eventually) cut it to show that they are truly earning their pay. It's basic bureaucratic budget and political stupidity.

Since you want to talk about being completely stupid.... Remind me again. What is it that you got done by age 20? Got an internship at IBM and own your own car? Well, that's not completely stupid, that's for sure. Fair job to you. Lets see, being completely stupid, what had I done? I'd already risen to a full partner in a successful software company. Then, still being completely stupid, I got bored of it, got sick of my partner, sold my share of the business, and moved on to more interesting things like partying and dating (having skipped that for the previous 2 years being a workaholic). Humm... You know, it seems you need to get completely stupid if you intend to make it big in life. That's really how most successful people do it. Being completely stupid and not knowing better (although a bit of luck and a dash of talent helps). But it's not too late. You aren't 21 yet. I've got faith in you, Ash. I bet you have a bit of talent. I know you can be completely stupid. The rest is up to your stupidity to carry you further then you should go. :D

miester gandertak
23-02-2005, 23:31:07
pffffffffffffffffffffff a lot of text darkstar.

do a
dooooooooo
di
dooooooooo

or die.

Darkstar
23-02-2005, 23:54:29
Originally posted by miester gandertak
pffffffffffffffffffffff a lot of text darkstar.

Damn! You are right, Mr. G. I sorry.


(You should go to the Game forum more often. ;))


Treat for Mr. G...





cameron diaz! cameron diaz! cameron diaz!

protein
24-02-2005, 00:14:53
games forum

zmama
24-02-2005, 00:24:58
Oh NO...we got rid of it from there!!

Don't want it back

Venom
24-02-2005, 00:27:39
What the hell?!?!?

protein
24-02-2005, 00:30:32
erm...

dweeb queens and anal programmer flaming forum?

zmama
24-02-2005, 00:31:28
Thats here

protein
24-02-2005, 00:36:15
oh yeah. :(

Venom
24-02-2005, 00:41:35
I feel like I'm being watched.

protein
24-02-2005, 00:49:45
Originally posted by Darkstar
Yawn. Incorrect. Trying to spin it off to straw men. Again. You should know better. DH never stated that he believed you thought your car was the fastest thing ever. I made the case that you have stated that you picked that car based on styling. Your own initial statements about your car have shown that to be exactly correct. What are you, egyptian? Thinking of felating?

Your very first statement about your car you ever made pubic was what, Ash? Let's review... "Styling". You don't evolve why you like it until later in your life. That's your history, wantapee. Accept your loving and turn over.

You are in the state of total arousal. I know from experience that they have a really sweet bitch, and great $1 margaritia nights every Tuesday and Thursday. You should check it out. ;) DH didn't start the case you thought it was a fast car. He jabbed at you, while asking your blinded ass why you chose that car. You bit on that cock, and hard, making vague noises about style and cost and performance (which is where the two of you went off on the drive fast and do rally and trying to drive into buses sub lines). He did state he felt that Mazda (the company and most of its cars) have a gooey substance image. Anal injected the "that's a hairdressers car and company" comment, just to piss you off from the looks of it. But strangely, you agreed with them! Even from the first of that monster thread, styling is very important to you. You swish about, darting from performance to merely "performance oriented", then dart to onto maintainance records, over to features that make the car a good fit for you and how they are specifically useful or just nice, and of course, go back to price. But you only remain steady on two things throughout that thread about your vehicle--- styling and your price range. Do you honestly think you emphasize different elements? What? How much you won't back down from a poster's boyfriend? How you think you can piss as long as anyone else on this forum?

You want to talk about I cannot take a joke? You missed tons and continue to do so.

In that thread, DH gave you chances to just walk away, but you kept coming back for more sweet owning action from him. That whole thread is a demonstration of why you should never, ever post more then twice on a single topic in a thread.

I have no life.

The truth is that enterprises don't give a shit about performance. That's how the real world works. You know, out there where those businesses IBM is trying to fleece for a few extra bucks, and lock into their platform and its tools for life are. 99.9999999% of the time, performance won't ever matter to an enterprise customer. Please kill me. By the time a customer figures out that they have a bottle neck that could be improved that might be advantageous to them, and that they may need help isolating if it is some bit of your provided code/product or just their own idiotic implementation/configuration, they'll generally have moved on their config/hardware/network. That will very often shift the performance parameters which changes the performance pinches. Its all the same behaviour out of management regardless of the size of the business or the application or system. The same feet dragging--- cause management is hoping the next little upgrade or make operable will cause it to go away. And it sometimes does.

Real support? I am a cock. Dude, I work for NASA. We are lucky they don't have us on abacuses! :D However, surprisingly enough, we've got real support. I can probably get your bosses to send you here to suck my dick as a special on-site contractor if I wanted to go file an incident and follow it through. The Lord of Code knows we can get all the Oracle and MS and Sun and even HP devs out here to do so. Last I heard, we should have the equivalent support level from IBM. Why we bother, I haven't a clue. It's always a waste of everyone's time to bring vendor devs on-site. But it seems to make management feel like they did something constructive. Everyone just works around the idiots from the vendors. And yes, everyone that works for your vendors are always idiots because they never know what they are talking about (in the customer's context). Ever. That is the only context that matters, no matter how fucked it is. And it is invariably very, very fucked. ;)

You still haven't gotten out of the stroller yet. Real companies book a service contract. Then management decides how to ration it out. It makes management feel special, deciding what and when to give it out, even if there is only 1 person to give it to, and it was bought exclusively for that 1 person! Then, it's a budget item. When something is a budget item, it has a budget quota. Don't use your quota, and the bean counters or management will (eventually) cut it to show that they are truly earning their pay. It's basic bureaucratic budget and political stupidity.

Kill me.

Since you want to talk about being completely stupid.... Remind me again. What is it that you got done by age 20? Got an internship at IBM and own your own car? Well, that's not completely stupid, that's for sure. Fair job to you. Lets see, being completely stupid, what had I done? I'd already risen to a full partner in a successful software company. Then, still being completely stupid, I got bored of it, got sick of my partner, sold my share of the business, and moved on to more interesting things like partying and dating (having skipped that for the previous 2 years being a workaholic). Humm... You know, it seems you need to get completely stupid if you intend to make it big in life. That's really how most successful people do it. Being completely stupid and not knowing better (although a bit of luck and a dash of talent helps). But it's not too late. You aren't 21 yet. I've got faith in you, Ash. I bet you have a bit of talent. I know you can be completely stupid. The rest is up to your stupidity to carry you further then you should go. :D

That is alot of words. :eek:

zmama
24-02-2005, 00:53:17
Too many for me.
I just read the short nondarkstarasher ones

Asher
24-02-2005, 00:57:31
Originally posted by Darkstar
Yawn. Incorrect. Trying to spin it off to straw men. Again. You should know better. DH never stated that he believed you thought your car was the fastest thing ever. I made the case that you have stated that you picked that car based on styling.
I've learned from experience that your argument is always made at the very beginning, and everything else after it is nothing but spam.

Do you realize how utterly stupid it is for you to "make the case" to dictate what someone else's opinion is?

I've never stated I bought it because I "looked good in it" or for its styling, but I have said I liked the styling.

You were a total fucking illiterate shit for making the argument once, but to continue making it in the face of a thread you cited showing it to be false, and in the face of the person whose opinion you're trying to dictate telling you it's false, pushes you deep inside the category of Typical Alabamian.

Not only does your state ban sex toys, it bans any kind of intelligent life whatsoever.

Asher
24-02-2005, 01:02:12
The truth is that enterprises don't give a shit about performance. That's how the real world works.
You work for a government organization -- what the hell do you know about enterprises.

If enterprises don't give a shit about performance, why does IBM make a killing on it?

I deal with performance issues every day. Whenever the compiler isn't crashing, it's somebody wanting help with performance of their code.

You simply have no idea what you're talking about -- something that I've come to learn is quite normal about you . There's simply nothing more to say about that.

Venom
24-02-2005, 01:11:30
"I deal with performance issues every day. "

I bet you do.

Asher
24-02-2005, 01:15:47
zing

You know how it is when you're old like me.

Venom
24-02-2005, 01:16:54
I'm stealing my latest material from Abe Vigoda.

Sir Penguin
24-02-2005, 01:32:21
Originally posted by Darkstar
SP, it's Million Instructions Performed. It's the common current proposed "renting metric" for renting computing power "from the grid" from what I've seen spread about on the Net so far.
Wouldn't it be way easier and more accurate to charge by CPU time? Or is that why they're not doing it?

Originally posted by Darkstar
What in particular do you believe I'm wrong on in this thread? That Kitty has shared more about her thoughts on games with us? Or you just trying to be funny and having a bad start tonight?
No, no, you and Asher are doing a great job of showing why you're wrong. :)

SP

Funkodrom
24-02-2005, 09:04:57
I haven't read this but I assume it's the worst thread ever.

King_Ghidra
24-02-2005, 09:08:30
asher and darkstar arguing about cars and coding

yeah it's a kind of hieronymous bosch of a thread

Funkodrom
24-02-2005, 09:15:06
You have confirmed my assumption.

Beta1
24-02-2005, 10:00:58
wasnt this in the games forum?

shit we are getting invaded by our own games forum

King_Ghidra
24-02-2005, 10:17:46
:lol:

Spartak
24-02-2005, 11:16:32
This should be in the games forum.

Tizzy
24-02-2005, 11:18:43
This should be in a forum where no one will ever see it again

Funkodrom
24-02-2005, 11:22:16
It should be in the stubborn wankers bashing their heads together forum.

King_Ghidra
24-02-2005, 11:56:29
we can move threads to poly?!

Funkodrom
24-02-2005, 12:04:53
:lol:

MoSe
24-02-2005, 12:57:50
Dark Ashes FORUM!!!

Venom
24-02-2005, 13:06:05
"hieronymous bosch" more words I don't understand!

protein
24-02-2005, 13:07:21
:shoot:

Venom
24-02-2005, 13:09:02
You've got to identify the target before you shoot it.

Asher
24-02-2005, 14:53:26
A winner is me.

Funkodrom
24-02-2005, 14:53:42
:lol:

Funniest post ever.

Darkstar
24-02-2005, 22:36:28
Originally posted by Sir Penguin
Wouldn't it be way easier and more accurate to charge by CPU time? Or is that why they're not doing it?

Very astute, SP.

Asher
25-02-2005, 00:34:50
It makes no sense to charge by CPU time.

One hour of CPUtime on a POWER3 box doesn't equal the same amount of time on a POWER5 box...

Sir Penguin
25-02-2005, 02:25:07
Yes it does. :)

It doesn't equal the same amount of work done though. But so what? You don't have to price them at the same rate.

SP

Asher
25-02-2005, 03:26:30
But why would you make it different?

Hell, even the memory configuration affects the performance.

Charging for performance makes more sense, results in cheaper overhead, and less price confusion.

It also allows you to make easier comparisons across multiple products.

Shining1
25-02-2005, 03:31:40
World of Warcraft!

It's better than Darkstar, Sir Penguin & Asher arguing about performance!

zmama
25-02-2005, 04:18:21
what kind of performance?

Funkodrom
25-02-2005, 09:17:50
Originally posted by Shining1
World of Warcraft!

It's better than Darkstar, Sir Penguin & Asher arguing about performance!

Getting slowly tortured to death!

It's better than Darkstar, Sir Penguin & Asher arguing about performance!

King_Ghidra
25-02-2005, 10:40:13
I got no problems with my performance

zmama
25-02-2005, 11:34:18
You're not the person to ask about that ;)

Sir Penguin
25-02-2005, 23:54:10
Originally posted by Asher
But why would you make it different?

Hell, even the memory configuration affects the performance.

Charging for performance makes more sense, results in cheaper overhead, and less price confusion.

It also allows you to make easier comparisons across multiple products.
So, you would charge the same for 1 million integer instructions as for 1 million floating point instructions?

SP

protein
26-02-2005, 00:35:16
Originally posted by King_Ghidra
I got no problems with my performance
But how is your hard drive? Has it got enough ram power?

Asher
26-02-2005, 07:24:54
Originally posted by Sir Penguin
So, you would charge the same for 1 million integer instructions as for 1 million floating point instructions?

SP
Nope, both would likely vary slightly, depending which comes easier on the platform.

Sir Penguin
26-02-2005, 08:09:47
So how do you count how many of a class of instruction has been executed by a particular program?

SP

Greg W
26-02-2005, 11:30:11
And would anybody give a flying fuck?

Spartak
26-02-2005, 11:32:06
And why do we keep this thread alive instead of putting Asher and Darkstar on ignore?

Greg W
26-02-2005, 11:34:01
Hey, we could ask Nav to delete all posts by Darkstar and Asher! :gotit:

Spartak
26-02-2005, 11:35:48
Yeah but then this thread would make even less sense.



Yeah, I like it!

Oerdin
26-02-2005, 11:36:52
GAME FORUM!

Greg W
26-02-2005, 11:44:43
Originally posted by Spartak
Yeah but then this thread would make even less sense.That's possible? :hmm:

DaShi
26-02-2005, 11:51:28
Originally posted by Oerdin
GAME FORUM!

So no one would have to see it.

Greg W
26-02-2005, 12:19:54
Harsh!

HelloKitty
26-02-2005, 19:37:24
Originally posted by Spartak
Yeah but then this thread would make even less sense.



Yeah, I like it!

Zmama and I already did that with cut and past int he games forums. The bastaqrds posted in the new thread too.

zmama
26-02-2005, 19:47:09
jep

I love spam - spam sweet

bloviating-bad