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View Full Version : Better pull your errr.. socks ? up !


Gary
09-02-2005, 16:32:53
A laughing stock ? :lol: (http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4249831.stm)

Dyl Ulenspiegel
09-02-2005, 16:43:07
What's next? Punishing girls who bring people cookies?

HelloKitty
09-02-2005, 16:43:48
YAY FOR MY HOME STATE!

Funkodrom
09-02-2005, 16:44:08
Land of the free! Hurrah!

Dyl Ulenspiegel
09-02-2005, 16:45:19
While it's hilariously stupid, you have to really start worrying about those little wannabe fascists.

HelloKitty
09-02-2005, 16:45:19
Dingleberries of mass destruction are nothing to scoff at Mike.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
09-02-2005, 16:45:51
Ah, they liberated Iraq from bad moustaches!

paiktis22
09-02-2005, 16:46:42
That's gillette.

Funkodrom
09-02-2005, 16:47:19
Razors of Müf destruction!

Gary
09-02-2005, 17:00:08
Honestly, I'm not deliberately searching the BBC US section :D Just stumbling across links. Uhhh... Intelligent design anyone ? (http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4248679.stm)

Hardly warrants a seperate thread.

Gary
09-02-2005, 17:01:29
Occam's razor of Müf destruction ?

Oerdin
09-02-2005, 17:05:08
The fundies sit in the back woods breeding and thinking up ways to force their stupidity on everyone. These fundies come out to the school board meetings in mass and get some of their fellow fundies elected then they try stupid stuff like this. After that all the regular people get outraged and the fundies get voted down again.

These stupid creationist ideas rarely get acted on but when ever the fundies try it makes the news.

Lurker
09-02-2005, 17:07:38
You'd think they could come up with something important to address. But no.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
09-02-2005, 17:10:06
"These stupid creationist ideas rarely get acted on but when ever the fundies try it makes the news."

A different interpretation:

Though the teaching of evolution makes the news when officials propose, as they did in Georgia, that evolution disclaimers be affixed to science textbooks, or that creationism be taught along with evolution in biology classes, stories like the one Dr. Frandsen tells are more common.

In districts around the country, even when evolution is in the curriculum it may not be in the classroom, according to researchers who follow the issue.

Teaching guides and textbooks may meet the approval of biologists, but superintendents or principals discourage teachers from discussing it. Or teachers themselves avoid the topic, fearing protests from fundamentalists in their communities.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/01/science/01evo.html?ex=1108098000&en=4f67cf20fb502119&ei=5070

Oerdin
09-02-2005, 17:11:54
Yeah, you'd think but they never do. I believe the courts have ruled that creationism is a religious idea and so cannot be taught in public schools so now the fundies simply call creationism "intelligent design" in a transparent attempt to get around the court ruling. Hopefully, this latest stupidity will also be ended by the courts in due time.

Oerdin
09-02-2005, 17:14:26
It could be only certain state courts and not the federal courts which ruled against creationism. I'm not sure and I'm to lazy to look it up.

zmama
09-02-2005, 17:28:14
It hardly matters...science education is generally crap anyway. Yes, I know there are exceptions but most people come out of school with as much science understanding as Sleepinghorns, creationism or not.

Oerdin
09-02-2005, 17:29:56
They say school districts have more effect on home prices then anything else. Everyone is trying to find schools which won't turn their kids into fucktards and they bid the prices up in those districts.

Funkodrom
09-02-2005, 17:30:33
"Dutch county" must be near Canada!

Science education at my school was pretty good, interest of average kid in it was pretty low.

Venom
09-02-2005, 17:32:00
I'm glad overseas paper covers Virginia state law so well.

HelloKitty
09-02-2005, 17:32:22
zmama is right. US precollege education is the worst in the first world for a reason. :(

Dyl Ulenspiegel
09-02-2005, 17:34:49
What reason?

Oerdin
09-02-2005, 17:42:13
1) Fucktard fundimentalists who want to block science education out of fear educated people will be less inclined to be fundies.

2) Teachers unions who are almost pathological in their quest to dumb down standards. You see when students fail to reach standards it is easier to lower the standards then to try new approachs or go back to old approachs which worked.

3) Every fucktard with a political agenda tries to fit in politically correct garbage instead of sound methods. The result is the basics get cut in order to make time for someone's ideological crusade.

It really is stupid but parents in bad districts have no one but themselves to blame. School board members are an elected position so if they put the time and effort in they can get rid of the PC crowd and the fundie crowd plus keep the unions in check. Few parents want to put in the effort though so special interests win.

zmama
09-02-2005, 17:47:20
I think it's more basic than that. Real science education is about a way of thinking about things, not memorizing factoids. Thinking in novel ways is discouraged in our factory modeled schools...it almost has to be to churn out all those students on time.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
09-02-2005, 17:49:11
That's almost every school though, unfortunately. It's hard work to get our first year students to think for themselves.

For some odd reason, it's even harder in the fourth year...

zmama
09-02-2005, 17:51:21
Well in school you are not rewarded for thinking...only for spewing back the same crap

Oerdin
09-02-2005, 18:02:42
It depends on the school. In my high school every quarter the students in the advanced classes had to do some sort of semi-original science project. Sure, a lot of the projects sucked but the point was to make the students practice the scientific method and to learn by doing. I'd also say that we were required to write a large number of papers in high school history classes for which you couldn't just spit out factoids (though that did help) you also had to syntheses themes and recognize trends.

That method of learning does improve reasoning skills for students and their ability to think critically. I realize my high school is not typical in the US though since 90% of the students went on to college and there seemed to be few special interests trying to influence the school board plus most of the parents seemed active in the PTA. Parent involvement helps work wonders.

Darkstar
10-02-2005, 03:33:52
Originally posted by HelloKitty
YAY FOR MY HOME STATE!

Now, that explains everything!

Funkodrom
10-02-2005, 09:52:21
Originally posted by zmama
I think it's more basic than that. Real science education is about a way of thinking about things, not memorizing factoids. Thinking in novel ways is discouraged in our factory modeled schools...it almost has to be to churn out all those students on time.

Interestingly there are often complaints about 'standards' slipping in schools here.

As far as I can tell the reason is that kids know less 'factoids' and spend more time developing skills - group work, project work etc. we used to have stuff like Maths investigations where you had to think up some Maths idea and... well, investigate it come up with conclusions etc.

Which I think is far more useful than learning shit off by heart that you can always look up anyway.

MoSe
10-02-2005, 09:54:40
from the title I imagined this was a thread about RHCP....

Beta1
10-02-2005, 13:13:54
say a run of letters in one of the UK papers (guardian I think).

The onld one about "if there isnt design behind the universe how come all the important physical constants etc are such that life can exist - if you altered most of them life couldnt have evolved. Therefore someone must have set those constants"...

'This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in. It fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well. It must have been made to have me in it!' --Douglas Adams

As you guys said, its from teaching science without scientific method.

Venom
10-02-2005, 13:27:15
The education system here is the way it is because of businesses. Businesses have been too slow in adpating to new ways of thinking. So schools just pump out same sized cogs for the great capitalist machine while the few free thinkers get rich of our labors.

It's all about the man keeping us down.

MDA
10-02-2005, 13:48:38
Originally posted by zmama
Well in school you are not rewarded for thinking...only for spewing back the same crap

Amen. That and figuring out how my teachers thought got me through high school with a B average.

Funkodrom
10-02-2005, 14:12:26
School sounds fucking appalling there then, and I didn't think it was great here.

Oerdin
10-02-2005, 14:22:08
Originally posted by Venom
The education system here is the way it is because of businesses. Businesses have been too slow in adpating to new ways of thinking. So schools just pump out same sized cogs for the great capitalist machine while the few free thinkers get rich of our labors.

It's all about the man keeping us down.

Is that why businesses keep importanting scientists and engineers at record rates? Business demands they skills at high rates and US schools aren't keeping up with demand. True, we numerically we produce more engineers and scientists then any 1st world country but as a percentage of population we're at or near the bottom. That means we have a bunch of lazy bastards who can't be bothered with the hard stuff.

Being a scientist by training I've always thought that was a problem. Instead of spenfing all of our time argueing about how often to mention slavery in high school history books we should be more worried about requiring everyone to take math through calculas, real physics, real chemistry, real Earth sciences, because those are the subjects most likely to teach people how to think and it will give them a base of knowledge to work from even if they don't go to college.

Funkodrom
10-02-2005, 14:27:24
Science isn't even hard really. More people have a psychological "it's hard so there's no point trying" block than genuinely can't get it. (although some people genuinely don't have science oriented brains, just like any other subject)

It's the same as any subject, if you are good at it it's easy. But is has this "it's hard" stigma. Mainly the fault of Maths I think.

Oerdin
10-02-2005, 14:35:10
Originally posted by Funkodrom
School sounds fucking appalling there then, and I didn't think it was great here.

Mine was actually very good but we often got cited for being in the top 5% in the state. Even in California if you go to LA Unified or Oakland (both large urban areas with lower class, mostly minority populations) then the school systems absolutely suck. I doubt race plays any part but you do find all these racial pressure groups playing stupid political games instead of worrying about educating children and giving them the skills they’ll need to succeed in the world.

What do I mean when I say political games? There were Latino groups whose goal was to preserve the Spanish language so they wanted to slow down or stop Latin kids from learning English. They created PACs which demanded all of these kids go to special bilingual education classes which doesn’t sound to bad but at the end of 12 years the majority of the students were graduating still unable to speak basic English. Guess how employable those students were. Luckily we put a stop to that failed practice but it was amazing how vested interest took hold of the system and steered in a direction which was good for them but horrible for students.

Another one is how Oakland’s school district (which is mostly black) got taken over by black nationalists who wanted to stop teaching proper English and instead teach all black students Ebonics (meaning basically ever changing black slang), which was to be used instead. How exactly will these kids get jobs in the real world when they can’t speak or read correct English? Politics is a horrible thing when it gets into education.

Oerdin
10-02-2005, 14:44:04
Originally posted by Funkodrom
It's the same as any subject, if you are good at it it's easy. But is has this "it's hard" stigma. Mainly the fault of Maths I think.

I always found advanced math to be difficult and I disliked it. I did however finish through multivariable calculus and differential equations because the education system told me I had to so I rose to the challenge even though that meant I had to spend a lot of time doing home work to try to figure out what was going on.

I think your right that most people just say "it's hard" and stop trying.

Venom
10-02-2005, 15:01:52
Oh, they realize now that they need free thinkers, but now the education system can't keep up. They've been an assembly line for so long now, they don't have the upgrades to produce the new models.

Besides, even the imported furriners work for less.

miester gandertak
10-02-2005, 15:04:21
long thread, i think.
time for a beer, i think.

Beta1
10-02-2005, 15:09:47
Originally posted by Funkodrom
Science isn't even hard really. More people have a psychological "it's hard so there's no point trying" block than genuinely can't get it. (although some people genuinely don't have science oriented brains, just like any other subject)

It's the same as any subject, if you are good at it it's easy. But is has this "it's hard" stigma. Mainly the fault of Maths I think.

I think your right there - really science should be one of the easiest subjects. Same for maths. Infact maths one of the few subjects I know where there is a genuinely "correct" answer. If you get over the image problem I think most people could handle science and maths far better than they do. I always had a problem with things like English or History - the answers always seemed to be opinions rather than answers. Some people seemed to think this was easier due to the waffle factor but give me a good maths paper with a definate correct answer anyday.

maybe I've got mild aspergers syndrome?

zmama
10-02-2005, 15:10:57
:beer:

A well edumacated man, that Mr. G!

MDA
10-02-2005, 15:21:52
I can't, I'm at work. Drink two for me.

I hate working Friday mornings, especially when I remember its already late afternoon for the Euro posters.

A lot of the larger college classes are pretty easy too. Multiple choice tests speed up grading, but the questions aren't carefully written. Its hard to fail when the answer is right in front of you and the test designer doesn't at least make an effort to make you second-guess your answer.

Public school can't be too bad, I learned what I needed for college, and learned what I needed in college for grad school.
The non-self motivated students get left behind, though, because most of the teachers are less than inspiring. The teachers aren't really paid well, so lots of potential teachers pass the jobs by. So we have a mixture of layabouts that can't get better jobs, and teachers that love the job so much they'll put up with the crappy pay and lack of school supplies.

Parents here at work complain that they pay school taxes but still get pressured to contribute to buying new school supplies, textbooks, etc. by the teachers. If there's not enough tax money to run the schools properly, the taxes should be raised for everyone(go ahead and call me communist/socialist ;)).

Gary
10-02-2005, 15:57:39
I'd bet you're not that keen on Thursdays either.

MDA
10-02-2005, 16:25:04
No, Tuesdays and Wednesdays are best. I get more of my work done in those two days than in the other three.

Darkstar
10-02-2005, 19:41:11
Originally posted by Oerdin
Politics is a horrible thing when it gets into education.

Politics is a horrible thing. Full stop. You just become more aware of that fact when you see politics affecting things you pay attention to.

Oerdin
10-02-2005, 19:46:37
Yeah, you're right. Bust speaking of hirrible things what is your avatar any way? It looks like some sort of strange cross between Darth Vader and a dancing gremlin. ;)

Darkstar
10-02-2005, 19:49:48
Originally posted by Venom
The education system here is the way it is because of businesses. Businesses have been too slow in adpating to new ways of thinking. So schools just pump out same sized cogs for the great capitalist machine while the few free thinkers get rich of our labors.

It's all about the man keeping us down.

Actually, we were taught in school by a very bright teacher in social sciences that the education system here is the way it is because of industrial businesses. They needed factory assembly line workers, and that is what the US education system was set up to produce. Other businesses didn't have the lobby presence to get their needs addressed at the commoner level.

Of course, everything has changed since the system was first set up, but politics being politics, and bureaucracy being bureacracy, it is still the same educational system as first created. The only difference is that blacks and other minorities aren't supposed to be segregated any more. Although various political groups still push for that exact goal.

Of course, this is from the same teacher that taught "what basic household items make suitable marital aids". So what would she know?

Darkstar
10-02-2005, 19:51:32
Originally posted by Oerdin
Yeah, you're right. Bust speaking of hirrible things what is your avatar any way? It looks like some sort of strange cross between Darth Vader and a dancing gremlin. ;)

It's Darth Tater. A special edition of Mr. Potato Head being released in conjunction with Episode 3.

More detail can be found at:
http://www.space.com/entertainment/ap_darthtater_050120.html