PDA

View Full Version : Which shop (UK) should I use for my Wedding List?


Rodgers
01-02-2005, 10:24:34
Gotta do one of those lists for our guests to choose our wedding gifts from. The gf is quite a Debenhams fan but I've always seen that place as pretending to be more upmarket than it really is. I'm leaning more towards M&S or possibly John Lewis (although her family arent exactly loaded so the last one may be taking the piss slightly).

Has anyone done this sort of thing before? (either as the marrying couple or the person selecting from the list)

miester gandertak
01-02-2005, 10:25:59
Christine le Duc?

Funkodrom
01-02-2005, 10:26:46
As a Guest - Debenhams.

It was great. All online. Took about a minute.

King_Ghidra
01-02-2005, 10:33:34
John Lewis - my mates did it and it was very easy to use when i bought them some knives or something off of it - again, online.

miester gandertak
01-02-2005, 10:33:44
As a pervert - Christine le Duc

It was great. All online. Took about a minute.

Scabrous Birdseed
01-02-2005, 10:44:13
This British "wedding list" practice just seems so unimaginative, callous and incredibly dull to my ears- what happened to the idea of giving presents out of the goodness of your heart that you like and think will fit the reciever?

Sorry.

Funkodrom
01-02-2005, 10:52:01
Scabby, I agree with that in some ways.

There is a historical practical purpose. The ideas is that the couple will be setting up home for the first time and the list is a list of practical stuff they need like toasters and cutlery. The idea of the list is to make sure they get what they need and not 100 toasters.

I think these days with people marrying later and living away from home or together more before they marry it's less relevant but still useful.

Tizzy
01-02-2005, 10:56:11
I think if anything it's even more relevant and useful these days, as people are more likely to already have things they need, for the resaons you've given.

Gary
01-02-2005, 10:56:14
'War on Want' ?

Rodgers
01-02-2005, 11:00:40
Originally posted by Funkodrom
Scabby, I agree with that in some ways.

There is a historical practical purpose. The ideas is that the couple will be setting up home for the first time and the list is a list of practical stuff they need like toasters and cutlery. The idea of the list is to make sure they get what they need and not 100 toasters.

I think these days with people marrying later and living away from home or together more before they marry it's less relevant but still useful.


Yeah, but also we dont trust our (older) relatives to exercise decent taste when choosing stuff for us - we could end up with some real nasty stuff if we arent careful.

I like the idea of guests being able to do stuff online - more chance of them making the effort then. Debenhams and JL in the lead so far then.

Funkodrom
01-02-2005, 11:01:45
Originally posted by Tizzy
I think if anything it's even more relevant and useful these days, as people are more likely to already have things they need, for the resaons you've given.

Yeah... good point.

King_Ghidra
01-02-2005, 11:06:49
Originally posted by Scabrous Birdseed
This British "wedding" practice just seems so unimaginative, callous and incredibly dull to my ears

i'm sure this is what you meant to say :D

Gary
01-02-2005, 11:12:17
I have chosen from a store list. Not on line, before the Net was that ubiquitous, but I went to M&S and sorted it in the store.

It was ok, I guess, certainly shortened the time taken. But I wasn't that keen. I know that the alternative was to read though a couple's hand written list and risk duplication, but somehow it seemed so mechanical.

Besides whilst it ensures you get what the couple wants, it also means that you pay the prices that the couple has dictated. (And doesn't the store add on a bit for the privilege ? Too long ago to recall now, but I think they might.)

And getting there after all the others have already snapped up the reasonably priced items, is a pain too. And it's all so restrictive.

In fact I'm a little off about a list in the first place to be honest. Over time it's gone from, being happy with whatever's given, to a suggestion list, as it's sensible to avoid getting gifts that are unwanted. Which seems reasonable except that it moves in the direction of dictating what other will give. Then on to the store listings, as it's sensible to actually define the gift and avoid getting two of the same, except that, that is even further into dictating what's bought, and what's paid for it.

A gift ought not be demanded really, but gratefully received as a nice 'surprise' that wasn't a necessity but a wonderful gesture from friends and family. Sadly the emphasis has been changed over time by the couples in collusion with commercial interests.

But given that that's the way things have gone, I think, if possible, it may be an idea to have a combination. A paper handout with suggestions for those who wish to give something, and maybe a couple of stores running lists. Although it won't get rid of the possible duplication problem, I think that's a small price to pay for the freedom of the giver to go elsewhere without feeling guilty about it. After all things wear out so a duplication isn't that much of a problem.

Gary
01-02-2005, 11:15:33
Yeah, but also we don't trust our (older) relatives to exercise decent taste when choosing stuff for us - we could end up with some real nasty stuff if we aren't careful.

This is the problem. Couples think they are entitled rather than privileged.

I like the idea of guests being able to do stuff online - more chance of them making the effort then.

I'd have thought the whole idea of the Net was to make less effort. Unless you're one of the (older) relatives who don't know a PC from a dishwasher.

HelloKitty
01-02-2005, 11:16:16
Tescos?

Gary
01-02-2005, 11:18:30
'Victoria's Secret' ?

HelloKitty
01-02-2005, 11:21:40
Can you register on Ebay?

Tizzy
01-02-2005, 11:21:54
Originally posted by Gary
Yeah, but also we don't trust our (older) relatives to exercise decent taste when choosing stuff for us - we could end up with some real nasty stuff if we aren't careful.

This is the problem. Couples think they are entitled rather than privileged.



I don't think it's that at all.
Couples getting married know people will buy them gifts, that's the way things are done. Maybe not all guests will, but the majority certainly.
That in no way suggests the couple won't appreciate any presents they get. A list is a practical idea though, because it's hard to appreciate 10 toasters!

Gary
01-02-2005, 11:25:54
See HelloKitty's post above :)

Rodgers
01-02-2005, 11:42:54
The Greeks have the best plan for wedding gifts - everyone gives cash! No complaints, no duplication, no worries :D

Gary
01-02-2005, 12:23:55
That's it !!!! A list at Lloyds ;)

MDA
01-02-2005, 12:57:50
Even with a list/registry you tend to end up with a lot of clocks.

Provost Harrison
01-02-2005, 15:35:57
My mate did John Lewis. If it was me having to buy I'd put the gift list at Matalan :lol:

alsieboo
01-02-2005, 15:39:45
Did I miss the wedding announcement thread?

Provost Harrison
01-02-2005, 15:40:36
If I get married, my wedding list is going to be at Wong Kei's ;)

Funkodrom
01-02-2005, 15:49:01
:lol:

Or the catering for the reception?

Provost Harrison
01-02-2005, 15:50:41
Now that is a good idea :lol:

zmama
01-02-2005, 15:57:32
Crispy Duck for all!!!

Provost Harrison
01-02-2005, 16:00:39
Hehe, do the wedding toast with sake :D

Eklektikos
01-02-2005, 16:01:13
Originally posted by zmama
Crispy Duck for all!!!
Now that's a slogan I could march under!

Funkodrom
01-02-2005, 16:06:05
The wedding Sesame Prawn Toast?

Provost Harrison
01-02-2005, 16:06:34
:lol:

zmama
01-02-2005, 16:08:02
I'm getting very hungry!!!

Tizzy
01-02-2005, 16:10:22
Mmm, chinese *drool*

Rodgers
01-02-2005, 16:23:02
Sadly, it's traditional fare. Evening buffet should be good, though.

Not sure on the drinks though - Pimms, Bucks Fizz, Kir Royale or cheap Champers for arriving guests?

Tizzy
01-02-2005, 16:24:40
You can't really go wrong with Bucks Fizz

Funkodrom
01-02-2005, 16:24:45
Pimms

zmama
01-02-2005, 16:25:16
Kir Royale

Immortal Wombat
01-02-2005, 16:25:38
cheap Champers

Funkodrom
01-02-2005, 16:26:00
That's that sorted then. :lol:

Tizzy
01-02-2005, 16:26:09
Good work guys :D

Funkodrom
01-02-2005, 16:26:57
Were they all x-posts or did anyone deliberately try and complete the set?

Rodgers
01-02-2005, 16:28:26
Originally posted by Tizzy
You can't really go wrong with Bucks Fizz


It isnt what it used to be ;)

zmama
01-02-2005, 16:28:37
I picked the one I think I'd like the best. I love Champagne but the cheap stuff can be dreadful

Rodgers
01-02-2005, 16:29:28
Originally posted by Funkodrom
Pimms


My favourite - it's an August wedding so we're hoping (foolishly) for sunshine

Rodgers
01-02-2005, 16:30:15
Originally posted by zmama
I picked the one I think I'd like the best. I love Champagne but the cheap stuff can be dreadful


Yeah, it's too expensive to lay on goodstuff for 100+ people :(

Funkodrom
01-02-2005, 16:34:19
Originally posted by zmama
I picked the one I think I'd like the best. I love Champagne but the cheap stuff can be dreadful

I thought he meant good non-French sparkling which is about 1/3 the cost of champagne. Well that's what I'd get if it was that option not Pimms. Lindauer or something. Mmm.

Funkodrom
01-02-2005, 16:37:19
Originally posted by Rodgers
My favourite - it's an August wedding so we're hoping (foolishly) for sunshine

Yeah, hot summers day, Pimms reception. Great.

Plus it tends to be weaker once mixed and people get less destroyed so early.

Rodgers
01-02-2005, 16:39:43
Good call all round

Dyl Ulenspiegel
01-02-2005, 16:46:34
Originally posted by Scabrous Birdseed
This British "wedding list" practice just seems so unimaginative, callous and incredibly dull to my ears- what happened to the idea of giving presents out of the goodness of your heart that you like and think will fit the reciever?

Sorry.

What do they do in Sweden? Get together for a happy looting party, like in the IKEA adverts?

zmama
01-02-2005, 16:47:41
If they do, I'd like that!!!

Funkodrom
01-02-2005, 16:49:08
The whole wedding party clubs together to buy one beer?

Dyl Ulenspiegel
01-02-2005, 16:53:26
Originally posted by zmama
If they do, I'd like that!!!

Winterschlussverkauf bei Aldi!

zmama
01-02-2005, 17:10:17
Hooray! Even cheaper wine :D

Scabrous Birdseed
01-02-2005, 18:20:39
Originally posted by Dyl Ulenspiegel
What do they do in Sweden? Get together for a happy looting party, like in the IKEA adverts?

I've not heard of it being done (people generally accept the twelve toasters, I believe) but then I've been to few "proper" weddings. I mean, in my brothers' yuppie* circles they all go for fancy white weddings with huge receptions and stuff, costing them a fortune so (presumably) they can live out some consumerist fairytale.

If I ever get married (next summer, fingers crossed) it'll be in my mother's garden with lots of happy guests, home-cooked food and a casual atmosphere.

*or is that muppie or something? They're both in their forties.

Provost Harrison
01-02-2005, 19:12:15
Originally posted by Funkodrom
Pimms

Yeah :beer:

sleeping_satsuma
01-02-2005, 20:54:51
you can set up travel voucher lists now so that th guests contribute to the honeymoon cost, which is ideal for those who have all the house stuff and want to go somewhere fab on honeymoon.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
02-02-2005, 08:57:31
Originally posted by Scabrous Birdseed
I've not heard of it being done

Standard procedure here. I used to think it's as common as the super market.

Scabrous Birdseed
02-02-2005, 09:03:44
It all reminds me of that South Park episode with Cartman's birthday.

"You were supposed to get me the Red MegaMan, now I can't make Ultra MegaMegaMan, you dirty cheap ass piece of crap!"

Funkodrom
02-02-2005, 09:06:44
You don't have to get anything, and you don't have to get something off the list if you do.

If you do get them something off the list you know it's something they need and there's also the thing where you get family coming to weddings who you barely know and who wouldn't have a clue what to get you.

Scabrous Birdseed
02-02-2005, 09:32:25
Yes, of course, you don't "have to". :rolleyes:

Funkodrom
02-02-2005, 09:33:35
So... er... *confused*

Scabrous Birdseed
02-02-2005, 09:38:31
I mean, you don't "have to", they're not gonna arrest you if you don't or anything, but as with all social conventions breaching decorum is... not done. In this case the social convention is cheap, greedy and vaguely narcissistic, but it's still a social convention and they're going to think less of you if you don't follow it.

Tizzy
02-02-2005, 09:44:59
they're going to think less of you if you don't follow it

Bollocks. When I got married I couldn't have cared less about the presents. Strangely enough that wasn't the point of the day and I wouldn't have cared if no-one had bought anything, all I wanted was for people to turn up and have a good day. I can't believe I'm alone in thinking that way.

Scabrous Birdseed
02-02-2005, 09:47:35
You're not. But then I guess you wouldn't make a list. Because that sends out signals that it's otherwise.

Scabrous Birdseed
02-02-2005, 09:48:50
Oh wait, no, you did. That sent out the wrong signals.

Gary
02-02-2005, 09:49:14
The thing about the store list, is that if there is one, then you do feel obliged to join in and use it. And you end up doing what I did which is buy an expensive vase (or whatever) that you think hardly shows what you spent on it, because it was the cheapest thing left unbought, with all other stuff being way over your reasonable price limit, presumably only on the list in the hope that some millionaire relative might turn up.

I think one needs to stress that the list IS only there to use IF YOU WANT TO when the invites go out.

Funkodrom
02-02-2005, 09:52:34
Originally posted by Scabrous Birdseed
You're not. But then I guess you wouldn't make a list. Because that sends out signals that it's otherwise.

As a guest I just think it makes things a lot easier. And I never feel obligated or whatever by social pressures to do anything. It's normally "If you want to get something there's a list here... " end of story.

If I did feel I was pressured to get something I wouldn't. I'm contrary like that. :D

Scabrous Birdseed
02-02-2005, 09:52:52
A wish list is bad enough, but a store list? It's an insult to the act of gift giving. You might as well sell tickets to the reception.

Tizzy
02-02-2005, 09:55:03
.You're not. But then I guess you wouldn't make a list. Because that sends out signals that it's otherwise.

Actually I did, for purely practical reasons We already had most of the stuff we needed and didn't want people wasting their money on things we'd just stick in the cupboard and never use. What's the point in that? If people were going to spend money, they may as well spend it on something useful

Funkodrom
02-02-2005, 09:59:05
The reason the store lists work - and make a lot of money for the stores - is because they record what's been bought already. If all guests had to be kept up to date with the status of each item on the wish list to prevent 10 toaster sydrome it'd be impractical.

I agree that they seem a bit crass. *shrug*

Whatever, you don't have to have a list, many people don't. If someone has one you don't have to buy anything off it.

Maybe there are some examples of extreme pressure to conform to this stuff in some families but I've never been to a wedding where anything was ever mentioned above thanking everyone for presents.

Funkodrom
02-02-2005, 09:59:53
Originally posted by Tizzy
.

Actually I did, for purely practical reasons We already had most of the stuff we needed and didn't want people wasting their money on things we'd just stick in the cupboard and never use. What's the point in that? If people were going to spend money, they may as well spend it on something useful

Exactly.

Scabrous Birdseed
02-02-2005, 10:02:55
I'd prefer thoughtful over useful. Materialism is not really comething I'd want associated with my wedding.

Pope John Paul II
02-02-2005, 10:04:22
I'm sure somebody's said Tesco by now, but I'm a redundant bastard.

KrazyHorse@home
02-02-2005, 10:05:02
One day I'll get the hang of this AE thing. One day.

Funkodrom
02-02-2005, 10:06:39
It's not materialism it's a tradition whereby peoples families and friends actively want to give the couple useful gifts to help start their life together.

As they want to do that anyway, this list idea just helps them get something they know will be actually useful. It's not about the couple trying to sponge as much out of their guests as possible.

I kind of understand what you're saying but I think you are taking the most cynical possible view of this and missing the practical benefits for the guests.

KrazyHorse@home
02-02-2005, 10:09:24
I appear to have stumbled into the middle of a serious discussion between Mike and Scabby, both of whom I have pissed off on the sole occasions I've ever discussed anything seriously with them. Sweet.

I believe I accused Scabby of being a pussified self-hating man and Funko of being an Eskimo-hating bastard.

Tizzy
02-02-2005, 10:12:23
Originally posted by Scabrous Birdseed
I'd prefer thoughtful over useful. Materialism is not really comething I'd want associated with my wedding.

It's not materialism, it's not wanting people to waste their money.
As I said, I genuinely wouldn't have cared if no-one had bought anything but I knew people would and didn't want them spending money on me for no reason.
What would have been the point of 10 toasters sitting in a cupboard for years until they finally got chucked out? To me that's pretty much like throwing the gift back in someone's face.

Funkodrom
02-02-2005, 10:13:50
Originally posted by KrazyHorse@home
I appear to have stumbled into the middle of a serious discussion between Mike and Scabby, both of whom I have pissed off on the sole occasions I've ever discussed anything seriously with them. Sweet.

I believe I accused Scabby of being a pussified self-hating man and Funko of being an Eskimo-hating bastard.

I wasn't pissed off about that.

But miester gandertak and I did laugh about the fuss people made about us calling them Eskimos, ignoring the fact we were talking about beheading dozens of them. :D

KrazyHorse@home
02-02-2005, 10:14:40
I know. Scabby really was pissed at me though. Called me a Neanderthal, I believe...

:lol:

KrazyHorse@home
02-02-2005, 10:15:32
Even worse is that you assholes now have me saying "Eskimo"...

Dyl Ulenspiegel
02-02-2005, 10:16:24
Well that's PC logic - you don't kill the niggers, you kill african people of colour or whatever the hip termininology is.

KrazyHorse@home
02-02-2005, 10:16:28
Originally posted by KrazyHorse@home
I know. Scabby really was pissed at me though. Called me a Neanderthal, I believe...

:lol:

I think it might have been a threeway with AH/s_s

Funkodrom
02-02-2005, 10:16:32
So we won. Sweet.

If you'd called me a pussified self-hating man I'd have been angry with you.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
02-02-2005, 10:17:15
An angry pussy.

KrazyHorse@home
02-02-2005, 10:17:59
You'd rather be an Eskimo-basher?

Dyl Ulenspiegel
02-02-2005, 10:18:55
Or an Inuit-slasher?

Funkodrom
02-02-2005, 10:19:51
Slight difference between objecting to an objectionable term in a joke - which I thought was all light hearted anyway - and a personal attack like that I think.

Scabrous Birdseed
02-02-2005, 10:20:29
Neanderthal-basher?

Funkodrom
02-02-2005, 10:20:56
Seal-clubber?

KrazyHorse@home
02-02-2005, 10:21:01
BUT HE CALLED ME UNENLIGHTENED

just because I might have mentioned something about women being inherently inferior. :rolleyes:

Scabrous Birdseed
02-02-2005, 10:22:27
I'm not sure I ever called you a neanderthal or unenlightened. Misogynist troglodyte fascist idiot, possibly.

Funkodrom
02-02-2005, 10:23:02
Originally posted by KrazyHorse@home
BUT HE CALLED ME UNENLIGHTENED

just because I might have mentioned something about women being inherently inferior. :rolleyes:

Ah, I see. Well done Scabby then. :beer: :D

Dyl Ulenspiegel
02-02-2005, 10:24:37
Originally posted by Scabrous Birdseed
I'm not sure I ever called you a neanderthal or unenlightened. Misogynist troglodyte fascist idiot, possibly.

Wasn't that the other canadian twat?

Scabrous Birdseed
02-02-2005, 10:25:29
Both!

Dyl Ulenspiegel
02-02-2005, 10:26:09
Oh.

Funkodrom
02-02-2005, 10:26:37
Other Canadian twat? Lurker?

KrazyHorse@home
02-02-2005, 10:27:28
Originally posted by Scabrous Birdseed
I'm not sure I ever called you a neanderthal or unenlightened. Misogynist troglodyte fascist idiot, possibly.

Took a while to flush you out. ;)

KrazyHorse@home
02-02-2005, 10:27:55
Originally posted by Funkodrom
Other Canadian twat? Lurker?

Drekkus.

KrazyHorse@home
02-02-2005, 10:28:42
I hate women, but love the Inuit.

Hmmm. I wonder what that means...

Dyl Ulenspiegel
02-02-2005, 10:29:33
You mean "Innuendo".

KrazyHorse@home
02-02-2005, 10:30:07
Misogynistic Eskimophilia is a disorder all too common where I'm from...

KrazyHorse@home
02-02-2005, 10:31:06
Originally posted by Dyl Ulenspiegel
You mean "Innuendo".

I'm not bright enough for innuendo. Generally I just pull down my pants and start laughing maniacally.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
02-02-2005, 10:31:55
In the Canadian winter?

Tizzy
02-02-2005, 10:33:02
That's when other start laughing maniacally

Funkodrom
02-02-2005, 10:33:13
If he got kicked in the dingding it'd snap off.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
02-02-2005, 10:33:49
Does Tizzy kick frozen dingdings?

KrazyHorse@home
02-02-2005, 10:34:56
Originally posted by Tizzy
That's when other start laughing maniacally

That too.

Funkodrom
02-02-2005, 10:36:51
Originally posted by Dyl Ulenspiegel
Does Tizzy kick frozen dingdings?

I wouldn't be saying women are inferior then taking my trousers down in the canadian winter when she was around.

Tizzy
02-02-2005, 10:40:11
Doesn't matter whether they're frozen or not, if they deserve kicking they get kicked.

KrazyHorse@home
02-02-2005, 10:41:22
Mine presents a really small target, so I remain unafraid.

Tizzy
02-02-2005, 10:42:22
Didn't save miester g

KrazyHorse@home
02-02-2005, 10:43:02
Nothing could save miester g

miester gandertak
02-02-2005, 10:48:27
I'm doomed
cool

Funkodrom
02-02-2005, 10:50:07
Which table were you on?

miester gandertak
02-02-2005, 10:51:16
Don't remember the restaurant but i sat at the cool table.

Rodgers
02-02-2005, 10:53:21
Originally posted by Tizzy
.

Actually I did, for purely practical reasons We already had most of the stuff we needed and didn't want people wasting their money on things we'd just stick in the cupboard and never use. What's the point in that? If people were going to spend money, they may as well spend it on something useful


Sorry to boringly drag this back on topic here, but this prettyy much sums up our position. We both have our own houses at the moment and within a few months of the wedding we will be buying a place of our own together. We know pretty much what and where we are buying and what sort of stuff will go in that type of house.

At the minute we have a collection of all sorts of crap (some of her crockery is left over rubbish from uni!) none of which matches or is any good either. So, we are pretty much starting from scratch - plus to avoid arguments over whose stuff we keep and whose will go we are probably going to buy new everything and throw out all the old stuff. Hence the wedding list.

If guests want to help us set up in the new place then they can buy stuff off the list. I'm sure some guests will buy nothing at all and some will bring their own gifts. We dont really mind as our parents will be helping us out a lot in terms of buying stuff and/or doing DIY stuff in the new home etc anyway. And we really dont need any more toasters!

King_Ghidra
02-02-2005, 11:01:05
you both own your own houses? rich arseholes! no presents for you!

Funkodrom
02-02-2005, 11:03:24
Only in Sheffield. I could probably own a couple of roads up there.

zmama
02-02-2005, 11:48:09
I agree with...


hmmmm whose turn is it today?

SCABBY!

Rodgers
02-02-2005, 11:49:31
Originally posted by King_Ghidra
you both own your own houses? rich arseholes! no presents for you!


Actually I have two - one to rent out the other live in. She's just got the one :p


(does this mean you wont be buying us the longed-for fifth toaster? :()

zmama
02-02-2005, 11:55:43
Maybe K_G will get you the filth toaster

Dyl Ulenspiegel
02-02-2005, 11:57:06
K_G, Lord of the Toaster!

Rodgers
02-02-2005, 12:46:47
Originally posted by zmama
the filth toaster


Goes in white, comes out brown?


:nervous:

King_Ghidra
02-02-2005, 12:50:40
Originally posted by Dyl Ulenspiegel
K_G, Lord of the Toaster!

i preferred 'ruler of the unknown universe'

Dyl Ulenspiegel
02-02-2005, 13:31:07
Same thing, more or less.

Drekkus
02-02-2005, 13:55:43
Toasty Master

zmama
02-02-2005, 15:26:59
Toastie (http://www.counterglow.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26064)

sleeping_satsuma
02-02-2005, 18:33:30
Originally posted by Funkodrom
Only in Sheffield. I could probably own a couple of roads up there.

when I lived in Wales (96-99), one of my mates in the valleys told me his house (a nicely built and sizeable 3 bed terrace)cost a whopping 7000 and a decent town house in the suburbs of Cardiff with 3-4 bedrooms at that time cost 32,000

I shit you not!

Funkodrom
03-02-2005, 09:10:49
A quick search reveals... you should have bought a house in Cardiff and made 1000% profit.

Gary
03-02-2005, 09:45:07
Yeah, urban houses may have lasted a little longer than rural cottages ;)