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King_Ghidra
14-11-2004, 11:04:59
Damn :(

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/music/4010505.stm

Rap artist ODB (Ol' Dirty Bastard), one of the most colourful characters in the world of hip-hop, has died aged 35.
ODB, real name Russell Jones, collapsed and died at the Manhattan recording studio in New York on Saturday.

A spokesman for his record company, Gabe Tesoriero, said the rapper, who had complained of chest pains, was dead by the time paramedics reached him.

a very fucked up and very talented individual

Debaser
14-11-2004, 13:46:16
Shit, that's a bit random. A shame too. His albums are wicked.

Didn't he have, like, 17 kids?

protein
14-11-2004, 14:15:39
Crack can have that affect on the old ticker.

Provost Harrison
14-11-2004, 15:08:15
Not that random, if you constantly abuse that shit it's the way you can go...heart failure is not particularly uncommon in these circumstances...

Lazarus and the Gimp
14-11-2004, 15:35:13
Good career move.

protein
14-11-2004, 15:38:48
:lol:

Expect several more albums and film appearences for years to come. He's in a better place now, with Tupac.

Funkodrom
15-11-2004, 09:31:52
Originally posted by King_Ghidra
a very fucked up and very talented individual

I'll second that. Damn. :(

protein
15-11-2004, 12:11:18
What did he do? I'm trying to place the name but all I can think about is a rapper with a rough voice who I'm sure is the wrong person. Was he a producer or something?

Debaser
15-11-2004, 12:15:15
He was a rapper with a rough voice.

His most famous track was probably that Got Your Money tune with Kelis.

Funkodrom
15-11-2004, 12:17:53
He was one of the Wu Tang Clan.

protein
15-11-2004, 12:40:12
Ah right, a different usage of the word "talented" to what I'd normally associate with it. Still, you've got to respect a man for becoming increadibly rich with some ease.

Funkodrom
15-11-2004, 12:41:51
He wrote some great raps, gave a lot of enjoyment and entertainment to millions.

King_Ghidra
15-11-2004, 13:04:17
'incredibly rich with ease'? what the fuck are you talking about? you really are a fucking prick sometimes

you know nothing about him and yet you happily try and belittle him. what is that motivates you to make comments like that? jealousy, some kind of innner rage, feelings of inadequacy, what?

ODB was one of the most talented members of the wu-tang clan, who were arguably the greatest rap group of the nineties. He made two excellent solo albums and was an extremely likeable figure, someone who didn't take himself or the world too seriously.

the guy had probably been through exactly the same kind of shit you've been through trying to make a career doing what you enjoy.

spouting off negative ignorant bullshit about the recently dead is really a very poor way to spend your time

protein
15-11-2004, 13:09:57
I'm sorry. If he's produced two albums himself then fair play to the man. I thought he was just a rapper.

King_Ghidra
15-11-2004, 13:14:25
i doubt he did produce them, but how is it different? 'just a rapper'?! what the hell does that mean? is there no talent in rapping?! can only producers be talented? come on, you're not that narrow-minded, surely

Debaser
15-11-2004, 13:16:20
Rob he was famous for being a talented and original rapper.

Michael Schumacher is a talented racing driver. Would you require him to record an album about it before you acknowledged that?

Debaser
15-11-2004, 13:19:56
Originally posted by King_Ghidra
i doubt he did produce them...

First album was produced by The Rza, second was The Neptunes if anyone's interested...

Funkodrom
15-11-2004, 13:20:43
He's just a guitarist, she's just a singer, he's just a drummer, she's just a bass player, she's just a flautist...

protein
15-11-2004, 14:02:33
Hey, I'm not glad that the guy has died or anything. I'm sorry he died, my feelings go out to his family, fans etc etc.

"Just a rapper"? Well, yeah, if I'm blunt that's how I feel about rappers. Just like I'd think "just another boyband member" I don't dislike rappers or boyband members as people, I'm sure they are lovely.

As creators of music? hmm.

I've heard excellent bits of rap music but my personal view is that you could get any rapper to do what they do over the top and the track would be exactly the same. I suppose there would be different literal content about guns/misogyny/fighting delivered in the same monotone way but if you want hear someone talking about themselves why not read a book or go and see a stand up comic?

Just like if you replaced a member of Blue with a member of Westlife, the actual songs would be the same. The place that the music takes you would be the same.

With the greatest of respect to you guys, I'm not going to pretend someone has musical talent just because they died and just because you call me stupid/narrow-minded.

If one of Westlife died tomorrow I wouldn't change my views on the guy's act just to appease the people saddened by his death.

Since hip hop to the best of my knowledge is classified as a musical artform rather than aggresive poetry with music in the background, I will listen to and judge the music as a whole. I'm more likely to think "this track has a nice feel" or "I like the rhythm here" or "nice bass sound" or "I wonder if that's someone playing a real bass or a keyboard" or "I wonder who produced this music". It's unlikely that I will think "I really appreciate how fast this guy can talk all over the track" or "wow, he sounds really aggressive, I wonder if he's really angry or just pretending?"

I do appreciate that there is a skill in being able to talk about yourself quickly whilst dancing. I appreciate that as a talent the same as being able to talk backwards or to balance a chair on your chin or to shout "bye badda bye bye badda bye bye" over drum'n'bass. I wouldn't consider it a musical talent like beatboxing, singing, Tibetan throat gurgling and humming.

But there you go. I have different tastes and different views on what constitutes musical talent. It doesn't mean I'm dancing on someone's grave because they died from a crack problem.

Funkodrom
15-11-2004, 14:21:21
Music lyrics/rapping are poetry too, it's just set to music. I'd say that rap is an evolution of poetry, that's the point of it. Especially in its purest form when it's just someone spontaneously making stuff up and rapping acapella.

I know you don't like or listen to lyrics or consider them important but a lot of people do.

I can't believe you just wrote off 30+ years and thousands of albums by all kinds of extremely diverse and talented Rap/Hip-Hop vocalists by comparing them to Westlife like that.

And please don't post some of ODB's lyrics and make some comment about how lame they are. I know what ODB's lyrics are like and I know you can find plenty of examples of stuff that you'll consider totally shit/innappropriate.

Debaser
15-11-2004, 14:32:55
Originally posted by protein
I suppose there would be different literal content about guns/misogyny/fighting delivered in the same monotone way

If you taken just two minutes to use google to find out anything about ODB I bet you wouldn't have made that flat monotone comment. But you haven't, so you just look ignorant.

You can't just dismiss a whole genre of music just because you don't know anything about it. It makes you look like a conceited prick.

protein
15-11-2004, 14:44:38
I'm not bothered by the content so I won't stoop to posting lyrics. I'm also not writing off 30 years of a musical genre. Some hip hop music is amazing. Nor am I writing off a man who became well respected and rich from talking over good music. Fair play, it's a business and some people will happily buy the image/lifestyle the rapper is selling.

Poetry? hmm. I guess the first person who talked about bitches, money and guns over music could have been a talented poet, I think the hundreds of others that now do the same probably aren't. I would have said they were keen businessmen rather than creative musicial/poetic geniuses.

If you look back at 1960s beat poetry that was quite different. It was funk music with a genuine poet. The poems were a stance against the oppression of blacks and a comment on their social standing. It was a political movement. They used the word "nigger" to shock and to empower. It was also mainly a way that people who couldn't sing could join a funk band. In the 80s it was a continuation of that with the addition of cutting edge new musical technology and techniques. It changed from funk to electro. The lyrics started going a wee bit down hill and degenerated from aggressive poetry into showing off and slagging off others while maintaining the shock value.

30 odd years later the music is a little stale in most instances, exciting in others but the lyrical style has just degenerated such a thin sliver of shock value content you could probably use a computer program to churn out rap lyrics. Enter the amount of "pussy", "nigger" and "fuck" you want. Turn up or down the violence, guns, money and champagne/brandy/crack/smoke perameters and press enter.

The delivery is all pretty much the same now. One of contempt and arrogance. The main theme to me seems to be "look at me, I am a violent thug who has no concern about anything except pussy and money and you the stupid listener should keep paying for me. If you keep buying my records then maybe some of my wealth, confidence, arrogance and stature could rub off on you."

Funkodrom
15-11-2004, 14:54:32
Wow.

What an incredible load of bullshit in one post.

Debaser
15-11-2004, 14:55:47
Again you show no actual interest or knowledge of hip hop outside of the usualy easy cliches you might find in a Daily Mail article on the subject. Sure lots hop hop is about guns and bitches, but just as much isn't about that at all. Tell Blackalicious that that's what their music's about, or De La Soul, or Tribe Called Quest, or Company Flow, or Dilated Peoples, or The Roots, or Jurassic 5. You ARE being very narrow minded.

And when was 1960s beat poetry anything to do with funk?

Funkodrom
15-11-2004, 14:58:47
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/5f/300px-Allen_Ginsberg.jpg

Alan Ginsberg played a mean slap bass.

protein
15-11-2004, 14:59:20
Originally posted by Debaser
If you taken just two minutes to use google to find out anything about ODB I bet you wouldn't have made that flat monotone comment. But you haven't, so you just look ignorant.
I didn't say flat. I'f he were to sing I'm sure they would put it in tune for him. I did have a quick peek on google just to check that he was the sort of rapper that I mean - rather than a genuine genius that I somehow missed - and google kindly showed me some lyrics which I've now promised not to post.

Ignorant? Probably yes. If I don't like an act I will tend not to learn their life story and listen to their whole repetoir until I become an expert on their work.

I seem to be working you lot up by having views on music and expressing them in a music forum so I'll make a run for it now and leave you lot to calling me names.

Funkodrom
15-11-2004, 14:59:56
You don't have views on music, you have unsubstantiated predjudices against a genre.

(in this thread)

protein
15-11-2004, 15:06:57
Originally posted by Debaser
Tell Blackalicious that that's what their music's about, or De La Soul, or Tribe Called Quest, or Company Flow, or Dilated Peoples, or The Roots, or Jurassic 5. You ARE being very narrow minded.


Am I talking about De La Soul or Tribe Called Quest? Sheesh!

Most of those acts have excellent music. I'm sure they have aggressive lyrics that don't go along the line of -

"baby, I hope you're moist,
cos me and the niggas are down,
I got my crystal flowin'
and my money rollin'
bounce, bounce" etc etc

I was talking about the genre of popular rap of the moment. Which according to memory and google, ODB was a member.

Debaser
15-11-2004, 15:10:32
Originally posted by protein
I seem to be working you lot up by having views on music and expressing them in a music forum so I'll make a run for it now and leave you lot to calling me names.

You havn't even bothered to find out what he sounds like. I've been round Nikhil's house with you loads of times listening to ODBs music and you've liked it. You're expressing cliches and prejudices on a whole genre, not informed views.

protein
15-11-2004, 15:12:27
Besides, hiphop was the soundtrack to my childhood. I'm saying that in my view apart from some of the music which is cutting edge and rather good, the rappers, imagery and lyrics on the whole have gone in a direction that is more towards glamorising the gangster/rich thug lifestyle and the actual delivery is much the same.

Funkodrom
15-11-2004, 15:12:37
As are The Roots and Jurassic 5.

Maybe it was the fact that you were talking about all rappers that made us think you meant all rappers.

You should really try and watch those stupid generalisations.

Debaser
15-11-2004, 15:13:17
Originally posted by protein
Am I talking about De La Soul or Tribe Called Quest? Sheesh!

Most of those acts have excellent music. I'm sure they have aggressive lyrics that don't go along the line of -

"baby, I hope you're moist,
cos me and the niggas are down,
I got my crystal flowin'
and my money rollin'
bounce, bounce" etc etc

I was talking about the genre of popular rap of the moment. Which according to memory and google, ODB was a member.

You were talking about rap in general (or at least didn't make it obvious you weren't.) And ODB came out in the early 90s from Brooklyn, New York, making him a contemporary of Tribe Called Quest.

protein
15-11-2004, 15:17:46
Originally posted by Debaser
You havn't even bothered to find out what he sounds like. I've been round Nikhil's house with you loads of times listening to ODBs music and you've liked it. You're expressing cliches and prejudices on a whole genre, not informed views.
Yes, I liked the music. Well done, you have finally grasped what I am saying. As for the rapping over the top, I couldn't give a flying fuck which of the thousands of identical rappers it is making threats and claims over the top.

Debaser
15-11-2004, 15:19:51
Originally posted by protein
Besides, hiphop was the soundtrack to my childhood. I'm saying that in my view apart from some of the music which is cutting edge and rather good, the rappers, imagery and lyrics on the whole have gone in a direction that is more towards glamorising the gangster/rich thug lifestyle and the actual delivery is much the same.

Yes Robert, but it's a massive genre with many many sub-genres. Currently (well, ever since NWA, Snoop, Dre etc spawned gangster rap in the early 90s) there has been a certain kind of glamorisation of that rich thug lifestyle (are you enjoyng GTA: San Andreas by the way?), and this is quite popular, especially with kids/teenagers and thus quite high profile, by it's by no means the be all and end all of hip hop. Like any genre, whats in the mainstream is usually a cheesy tacky reflection of some of the great music you can find if you look a bit deeper.

Debaser
15-11-2004, 15:22:10
Originally posted by protein
Yes, I liked the music. Well done, you have finally grasped what I am saying. As for the rapping over the top, I couldn't give a flying fuck which of the thousands of identical rappers it is making threats and claims over the top.

LISTEN TO SOME FUCKING ODB!!!! You will instantly realise that he isn't like the "thousands of identical rappers" which you dislike. He's really funny and has a delivery unlike anyone else. This is what you were enjoying.

protein
15-11-2004, 15:22:28
Okay okay, you win. Whatever you say, I now will read and then re-read this looking for the genius you are all talking about.

I抦 just Dirt Dog tryinto make some money
So give me my streets and gimmie my honey
Radios play this all day every day
Recognize I抦 a fool and you lovinme
None of you nuh better look at me funny
Nuh, you know my name now gimmie my money
hook X2
Just sing it girls...
Just shake it right now!
- -If Dirty want's to sing, I think ya'll should let him
- -I think ya'll should give him his money
That's how I like girl
Sexy, sexy, sexy,
Sexy, sexy, sexy
Sexy, sexy, sexy
Sexy, sexy, sexy

Yo yo, Niggas playinithe club like this all night
Bitches put your ass out and let me hold it tight
You抮e looking at my wrist saying
慖t抯 so nice!!The price fits the diamonds, shining in disco lights
You抎 better help me solve my problem
Or I抦a get this money and rob them

Debaser
15-11-2004, 15:24:06
It's music Rob, you're supposed to LISTEN to it. His genius is in his delivery as was stated quite near the start of this thread.

protein
15-11-2004, 15:26:29
I'm sure it is. Genius in the angry sense or in the sinister sense?

Debaser
15-11-2004, 15:28:18
In the funny and entertaining sense.

protein
15-11-2004, 15:29:16
The music I'm happy to listen to. I could listen to it all day if I had to. Which I also said near to the start of the thread. I also said I respect his achievements and his ability to talk about himself quickly. I will not however say that he is a musical genius. That is just absurd.

protein
15-11-2004, 15:31:30
Originally posted by Debaser
In the funny and entertaining sense.
I also find some rap funny and entertaining. I just have a different value placed on it.

There, common ground at last.

Debaser
15-11-2004, 15:37:17
I'm going to mail you an Mp3.

Ok, maybe genius is a strong word, but he had a completely unique style, which he sustained over two full solo albums without ever becoming boring or repetitious. And while he did do some of that guns & bitches stuff, he really didn't take himself quite as seriously as a lot of guns&bitches rappers do.

Debaser
15-11-2004, 15:39:45
And you can't deny that changing your name to Big Baby Jesus is at least tinged with genius...

Funkodrom
15-11-2004, 15:41:51
A lot of it was very self aware, especially relating to all the insane stuff he's done in his life but you wouldn't get that from just reading random lyrics necessarily.

protein
15-11-2004, 15:55:28
Okay, but please don't all start to call me an ignorant prick and lay into me if I don't like it. We all have different tastes and values remember.

Drekkus
15-11-2004, 16:04:09
Originally posted by protein
Okay okay, you win. Whatever you say, I now will read and then re-read this looking for the genius you are all talking about.

I抦 just Dirt Dog tryinto make some money
So give me my streets and gimmie my honey
Radios play this all day every day
Recognize I抦 a fool and you lovinme
None of you nuh better look at me funny
Nuh, you know my name now gimmie my money
hook X2
Just sing it girls...
Just shake it right now!
- -If Dirty want's to sing, I think ya'll should let him
- -I think ya'll should give him his money
That's how I like girl
Sexy, sexy, sexy,
Sexy, sexy, sexy
Sexy, sexy, sexy
Sexy, sexy, sexy

Yo yo, Niggas playinithe club like this all night
Bitches put your ass out and let me hold it tight
You抮e looking at my wrist saying
慖t抯 so nice!!The price fits the diamonds, shining in disco lights
You抎 better help me solve my problem
Or I抦a get this money and rob them
'Baby I got your money' is actually a fantastic song. With a really funny video as well. Hopefully it will be on more now.

Funkodrom
15-11-2004, 16:04:49
That's fine. Maybe you need to think a bit more about how you phrase what you mean. When you stopped saying rap was worthless and making generalisations about all rap and rappers and made it clear that your comments were meant in relation to more specific about the particular aspects of one area of modern rap then we stopped getting all offended.

protein
15-11-2004, 16:27:00
I quite like the main drum loop and bass. It's quite stoned sounding. Not too fussed about the piano, it sounds a bit too digital compared to the organic sound of the rest of the production. I like the occasional old record samples. If I'm honest, I prefer the way Cyprus Hill did this kind of sinister beat. The samples sound circa mid to late 90s which I prefer to the more modern sounding keyboard drums that rap producers are using now.

I'm really, really sorry but I don't hear anything genius or different about the vocal. It still sounds like a gangster trying to intimidate and sound hard/powerful. Most of the time I have no idea what he's saying, I can pick up lines like "Shimmy shimmy" "brooklin squad" "psycho killer norman bates" and "ooh baby I like it raw" but the rest is either backwards, slurred or black american street slang that I don't know. You kind of get the sense that he thinks he's saying something really filthy and offensive and is getting a buzz out of it.

So yeah, sorry, to me it's the epitome of rap. Average beat with someone doing aggressive poetry over the top. I suppose if I really try to pick out what could make it different is that he seems to be using a handheld mic and he sounds quite fucked.

The imagery of it all is quite amusing. I'm picturing a drunken pipe-hitting gangster in a club with some prostitutes and a gun stuck down his pants. If I was making a gangster film or a film about crack I'd think about using this track on the soundtrack although I'd rather have Dr Octagon instead - purely because his lyrics are so offensive they are verging on funny.

Funkodrom
15-11-2004, 16:32:57
What's offensive about science?

protein
15-11-2004, 16:38:11
Originally posted by Funkodrom
That's fine. Maybe you need to think a bit more about how you phrase what you mean. When you stopped saying rap was worthless and making generalisations about all rap and rappers and made it clear that your comments were meant in relation to more specific about the particular aspects of one area of modern rap then we stopped getting all offended.
I wasn't generalising about rap, I was generalising about rappers. No, actually I was generalising about "rap". "Rap" to me means the kind of music you get on MTV. I would have said that hip hop was the wider genre of which "rap" is the shit part. I think that if you all had the same view on what constitutes "rap" you'd all agree that rappers pretty much all have the same value, that you could swap them from act to act and nobody would really notice and that rappers are just the people to put on the music video.

Funkodrom
15-11-2004, 16:41:00
Ok, in that case ODB is famous for being a hip-hop MC and co-founder of the most influential hip-hop collective of the 90s.

protein
15-11-2004, 16:41:44
Originally posted by Funkodrom
What's offensive about science?
:lol:

I suppose if you consider gynecology with a hammer and a blowtoch science...

protein
15-11-2004, 16:43:36
Originally posted by Funkodrom
Ok, in that case ODB is famous for being a hip-hop MC and co-founder of the most influential hip-hop collective of the 90s.
Yeah, the front man for an act who sounds very much like any modern rap artist only slightly drunk.

Who was the producer btw?

Funkodrom
15-11-2004, 16:47:36
He wasn't the 'front man' there are 9 of them.

The fact that a lot of modern rap acts sound like them is what I meant by them being influential. It's not their fault they were so good that a lot of people copied them badly.

If he sent you Shimmy Shimmy Ya the Rza produced most of that album I think.

Debaser
15-11-2004, 16:54:53
Yeah, it was Rza.

If you're going to get into definitions of stuff then surely "rap" is the art of rapping, and therefore an important component of hip-hop rather than a sub-genre. And you mean you grew up with electro rather than hip-hop.

protein
15-11-2004, 17:04:50
I grew up with the "elecro" series of records. The acts were self-referential enough for me to pick up that they were calling themselves "hip hop". Dr Dre's production was probably the most electronic sounding at the time.

protein
15-11-2004, 17:07:43
Was it Jurrasic 5 that did an instrumental track with a load of cool samples that were from some "how to put on a record" type record? I think it had a bit where it went half speed and the guy said "oh dear, I've put it on at the wrong speed"?

I thought that was great.

King_Ghidra
15-11-2004, 17:09:11
god this is awful.

i loved ODB and i thought he was a very talented, funny and unique guy and i can't fucking prove how good or bad or rich or poor he was but this is an RIP thread for a guy who died too young so how about we all shut the fuck up or start a new thread to discuss rap in or something

nil nisi bonum

Funkodrom
15-11-2004, 17:12:34
Originally posted by protein
Was it Jurrasic 5 that did an instrumental track with a load of cool samples that were from some "how to put on a record" type record? I think it had a bit where it went half speed and the guy said "oh dear, I've put it on at the wrong speed"?

I thought that was great.

Some people would argue that there was no talent in mixing other peoples music together like that. They'd be wrong too.

They did some of that stuff live at Reading, it was amazing.

Funkodrom
15-11-2004, 17:13:57
Originally posted by King_Ghidra
god this is awful.

i loved ODB and i thought he was a very talented, funny and unique guy and i can't fucking prove how good or bad or rich or poor he was but this is an RIP thread for a guy who died too young so how about we all shut the fuck up or start a new thread to discuss rap in or something

nil nisi bonum

Yeah, ok. same thing happened to the John Peel one. :(

Lazarus and the Gimp
15-11-2004, 17:32:43
Hello? Did I read that right? KG posting something in latin?

Mr Bumlove's got an education? Bloody hell.

BigGameHunter
15-11-2004, 19:01:37
Age Quod Ages is the only latin I know...

Damn...I'm starting to wonder about you English folk...you take big steaming dumps on "alternative" (emo/your term) music, but are nearly rabid in defense of hip hop, which is downright trite over here now.
Hmmmm...

Not talking about ODB, BTW...he didn't do much for me, but sad that he's dead when he had so much fun thumbing his nose at the "man".

Lazarus and the Gimp
15-11-2004, 20:27:09
Originally posted by BigGameHunter


Damn...I'm starting to wonder about you English folk...you take big steaming dumps on "alternative" (emo/your term) music, but are nearly rabid in defense of hip hop, which is downright trite over here now.
Hmmmm...



Pffft. I'm no hip hop fan, though I do own a few Tricky albums.

protein
15-11-2004, 23:18:22
I used to be a hip hop fan when I was a child. I was a bit of a breakdancer too.

Tricky is awesome.

Angelhorns
16-11-2004, 01:03:34
Originally posted by King_Ghidra
god this is awful.

i loved ODB and i thought he was a very talented, funny and unique guy and i can't fucking prove how good or bad or rich or poor he was but this is an RIP thread for a guy who died too young so how about we all shut the fuck up or start a new thread to discuss rap in or something

nil nisi bonum

Funko & K_G I don't understand this:

If you post about popular celebrities you'll draw a variety of views. You can't expect people to show faux respect when they don't feel it. Rap is like marmite for most people- love it or hate it. I'm mostly sympathising with Protein in this thread (unusual I know). Rap is an instant turn off for a lot of people, and a lot of people don't consider it particularly 'musical'.

Also, what's with these 'RIP' threads?? You didn't know the guy, you liked his music and thats fair enough, but people die all the time. Why is this more tragic? This thing of expecting other people to not post anything you don't like in an 'RIP' thread is unrealistic and it smacks of hero worship. It reminds me of when I used to have a crush on a TV star when I was 16, its that slightly creepy over protectiveness of an essentially remote figure with whom you've had no contact.

Plus- the dead man in question isn't going to read this and get offended, so whats the deal?

I'm not trying to do a Darkstar fight revival, I just genuinely don't get what these threads are meant to achieve, if not discussion. If Ronan Keating dropped dead tomorrow and someone posted a thread about it, I can't see you being particularly mournful or whatever, you'd probably do exactly what Rob's doing. Its all a matter of perspective. :)

protein
16-11-2004, 02:18:10
If one of the Blazin' Squad drops dead tomorrow I'll make the RIP thread and you can all feel free to comment without having names hurled at you.

Scabrous Birdseed
16-11-2004, 07:42:58
Actually, AH, I'd probably stay the hell out of the Ronan Keating thread. I'm not a big fan of ODB myself but I'm certainly not gonna post any caustic comments in this thread, which clearly is for people who liked him to feel the loss together.

Funkodrom
16-11-2004, 10:04:59
Originally posted by protein
If one of the Blazin' Squad drops dead tomorrow I'll make the RIP thread and you can all feel free to comment without having names hurled at you.

I wouldn't consider the RIP thread to be the right place for any comment.

Funkodrom
16-11-2004, 10:06:23
Originally posted by Scabrous Birdseed
Actually, AH, I'd probably stay the hell out of the Ronan Keating thread. I'm not a big fan of ODB myself but I'm certainly not gonna post any caustic comments in this thread, which clearly is for people who liked him to feel the loss together.

Exactly.

King_Ghidra
16-11-2004, 10:23:08
Originally posted by Angelhorns
Funko & K_G I don't understand this:

If you post about popular celebrities you'll draw a variety of views. You can't expect people to show faux respect when they don't feel it. Rap is like marmite for most people- love it or hate it. I'm mostly sympathising with Protein in this thread (unusual I know). Rap is an instant turn off for a lot of people, and a lot of people don't consider it particularly 'musical'.

Also, what's with these 'RIP' threads?? You didn't know the guy, you liked his music and thats fair enough, but people die all the time. Why is this more tragic? This thing of expecting other people to not post anything you don't like in an 'RIP' thread is unrealistic and it smacks of hero worship. It reminds me of when I used to have a crush on a TV star when I was 16, its that slightly creepy over protectiveness of an essentially remote figure with whom you've had no contact.

Plus- the dead man in question isn't going to read this and get offended, so whats the deal?

I'm not trying to do a Darkstar fight revival, I just genuinely don't get what these threads are meant to achieve, if not discussion. If Ronan Keating dropped dead tomorrow and someone posted a thread about it, I can't see you being particularly mournful or whatever, you'd probably do exactly what Rob's doing. Its all a matter of perspective. :)

i find it very strange that a thread to mourn somoene's passing has turned into a discussion of the validity of the particular genre of music they worked in. To take debaser's example of michael schumacher, if he died i wouldn't expect his RIP thread to become a two page thread about how racing cars is misoginystic wank.

it was sad that the john peel RIP thread also descended into a slanging match.

as scabrous said this was a thread to share some love for people who liked ODB. Anyone is welcome to start threads about rap music or racing cars or whatever the fuck else they want to talk about, but do that under a different thread title. Otherwise why have different forums and different threads at all? we could just have one big thread and discuss everything in it.

Why is ODB's death more significant than anyone else's? that is an incredibly stupid question. All our interactions with the world are limited to a particular orbit, and ODB was part of mine - yes, only in a limited way, but more meaningfully than say any of the x number of people who died in falluja yesterday. to appeciate the work of an artist you like is to have some kind of connection with them on some basic level. Not in some sad crush way and certainly not in some fucking hero worship sense, but in the sense of appreciating their attitude to life and art and feeling that it tallies with your own view of those things.

perhaps having respect in death for a person for whom you had respect in life seems a strange concept to you, but it seems quite logical to me.

if ronan keating did drop dead tomorrow i wouldn't give a shit, but equally it is unlikely i would post on here about how i was glad the tosser was dead and what a loser for making easy money selling crap to idiots, and you know why? because trolling is a sad enough activity as it is, but trolling obviously emotive threads is a very very poor excercise

perhaps it is naive to expect people not to post negative shit in threads like this. but it seems considerably easier and more sensible to me for people to post nothing rather than something offensive.

on sunday afternoon after i posted this thread i got a text from one of my old uni mates saying 'ODB is dead. RIP'. Anyone who can't understand that that text and my feelings come from a genuine respect and admiration for a person and the things they did is a very sad and strange individual.

*End Is Forever*
16-11-2004, 15:25:51
Forgive me for not having any sympathy at the death of a violent criminal.

Funkodrom
16-11-2004, 15:42:41
No.

Nills Lagerbaak
16-11-2004, 16:01:41
Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
Hello? Did I read that right? KG posting something in latin?

Mr Bumlove's got an education? Bloody hell.


Another piece of valuable latin I think we'd all do well to remember is

"Degusibus non-es disputandum"

Please forgive my awful spelling, but then I didn't have a classical education.

One sub-genre of Hip-hop is a genre called "gangsta rap" if that helps in any way.

RIP Ol' Dirdy dwoggy bastard

Gramercy Riffs
16-11-2004, 16:35:50
Violent in what way?

If you mean his run ins with the law, they were non violent, mainly drug related offenses.

If you mean his music, then is Joe Pesci violent? Robert De Niro? Russell Crowe?

protein
16-11-2004, 16:56:27
Russell Crowe is a bad example.

I thought ODB was just a drug user criminal rather than a violent sort. Although his image was based on violence and druggyness so you could be forgiven for thinking that. Especially as he's not an actor.

Funkodrom
16-11-2004, 17:04:23
He's a product of his environment.

Gramercy Riffs
16-11-2004, 17:10:18
Originally posted by protein
Russell Crowe is a bad example.

I thought ODB was just a drug user criminal rather than a violent sort. Although his image was based on violence and druggyness so you could be forgiven for thinking that. Especially as he's not an actor.

Fair enough. What I was trying to say was that music is an art form and doesnt always reflect what an artist is actually like. Nick Cave, for example, is not a murderer.

Whilst undoubtley a "shady" character, OBD's criminal run-ins verge on the commical.

protein
16-11-2004, 17:19:14
Agreed.

Angelhorns
16-11-2004, 21:12:56
Originally posted by King_Ghidra
i find it very strange that a thread to mourn somoene's passing has turned into a discussion of the validity of the particular genre of music they worked in. To take debaser's example of michael schumacher, if he died i wouldn't expect his RIP thread to become a two page thread about how racing cars is misoginystic wank.

it was sad that the john peel RIP thread also descended into a slanging match.

as scabrous said this was a thread to share some love for people who liked ODB. Anyone is welcome to start threads about rap music or racing cars or whatever the fuck else they want to talk about, but do that under a different thread title. Otherwise why have different forums and different threads at all? we could just have one big thread and discuss everything in it.

Why is ODB's death more significant than anyone else's? that is an incredibly stupid question. All our interactions with the world are limited to a particular orbit, and ODB was part of mine - yes, only in a limited way, but more meaningfully than say any of the x number of people who died in falluja yesterday. to appeciate the work of an artist you like is to have some kind of connection with them on some basic level. Not in some sad crush way and certainly not in some fucking hero worship sense, but in the sense of appreciating their attitude to life and art and feeling that it tallies with your own view of those things.

perhaps having respect in death for a person for whom you had respect in life seems a strange concept to you, but it seems quite logical to me.

if ronan keating did drop dead tomorrow i wouldn't give a shit, but equally it is unlikely i would post on here about how i was glad the tosser was dead and what a loser for making easy money selling crap to idiots, and you know why? because trolling is a sad enough activity as it is, but trolling obviously emotive threads is a very very poor excercise

perhaps it is naive to expect people not to post negative shit in threads like this. but it seems considerably easier and more sensible to me for people to post nothing rather than something offensive.

on sunday afternoon after i posted this thread i got a text from one of my old uni mates saying 'ODB is dead. RIP'. Anyone who can't understand that that text and my feelings come from a genuine respect and admiration for a person and the things they did is a very sad and strange individual.


Well K_G, I don't consider myself a strange or sad individual, tho you may disagree, because I don't see how you can be emotionally attached to someone you have never met. I personally can't get too worked up about famous people. 99% of what you see is image and PR, its not the real person. Having said that there are a few that I have respect and liking for. Michael Palin, Eminem, Dolly Parton....but if one of them keeled over, I'd think 'how sad, what a shame' and pretty much move on.

Then again, I've lost my father and grandfather in the last 4 years, and for me that kinda puts things in perspective. That's been real connection and real loss for me, it makes losing the press distorted image I get of a famous person I've never met seem insignificant to say the very least.

As for people posting 'negative stuff' in RIP threads- you can't on the one hand encourage an atmosphere where people are allowed to comment on any thread, and then request that they leave threads alone that you personally consider to be emotive. Other people will have different views of the deceased than you will. He's a public figure, that's just life. Now, I wouldn't advocate turning up to the guys funeral and saying 'well actually I thought he was a wanker' because clearly thats disrespectful to family and privacy etc, but you seem to be requesting that other people withold their opinions on a public forum because you quite liked him. Its never going to happen, and not only that, you'll have forgotten about it yourself by next week.

The whole John Peel thing was a farce- I found it really disturbing that everyone appeared to be ignoring his dubious past and doing a 'Diana' on the guy, behaving as though he was the personal saviour of modern music, and a saint to boot. I'm not even anti-Peel, I thought he was alright on the whole, I just posted the Burchill article because I thought it was an interesting alternative viewpoint, but everyone started doing this 'show some respect' thing, and I really didn't feel a great amount of respect for that attitude. I don't think it really reflects the whole person.

So, no, I don't understand how you feel, and I probably never will. And I think I have a pretty realistic perspective on it rather than a 'sad' or 'strange' one.

Sorry if you're offended by this post but them's my views, and not intended to offend. Just different to yours. However I appreciate that whatever you feel is real to you, so I will refrain from posting further in this thread. :)

*End Is Forever*
17-11-2004, 00:00:14
A criminal who made crap music is dead. Oh well.

Resource Consumer
17-11-2004, 00:29:36
one dead rapper - one less crapper

Funkodrom
17-11-2004, 09:28:33
Originally posted by *End Is Forever*
A criminal who made crap music is dead. Oh well.

Compassionate Conservatism.

protein
17-11-2004, 09:40:06
Strange how other people dance on his grave, and I'm the one who got the page of dissing and name calling for saying simply I had less respect for him as a musical talent and more as a performer.

Funkodrom
17-11-2004, 09:45:56
I think Phil summed up what I think about it. What's the point of saying it again and again?

Debaser
17-11-2004, 10:11:10
I stop reading it when the posts become Darkstar-esque.

Scabrous Birdseed
17-11-2004, 10:28:16
Mabe they were arguing against you because you are more reasonable, rob. What response do you make to people who just spew crap?

Funkodrom
17-11-2004, 11:43:44
With Rob it was a (heated) musical debate .

I can't imagine going and slagging off someone who another poster here admired in a memorial type thread, they obviously think that's ok. What's the point of arguing against that?

Scabrous Birdseed
17-11-2004, 12:24:15
I wouldn't debate musical merits either in a memorial thread, despite being largely on protein's "side" (for different reasons). But maybe that's just me.

protein
17-11-2004, 12:43:14
I don't remember slagging him off at all. I remember saying my feelings go out to his family and that I respect his achievements. There was absolutely no feeling of "good riddence" from me. I was just answering to the bait and defending my stance on what constitutes musical talent when people started the name calling and accusations of narrow-mindedness/stupidity.

Maybe I should have questioned ODB's music writing ability in a another thread in case one of his family read it and deemed it inappropriate but there you go, too late now. Sorry. Maybe people should have slagged me in a different thread too?

Funkodrom
17-11-2004, 12:57:36
I didn't say you did/that post wasn't refering to you.

Is calling someone talentless slagging someone off?

I dunno.

That's it, I'm out of this thread.

Venom
18-11-2004, 15:21:20
ODB :cry:

I'll never forget the time he went to pick up his food stamps in a limo...on TV.

Funkodrom
18-11-2004, 16:05:36
:lol:

Venom
18-11-2004, 16:18:49
I like to think it was his own little bit of social commentary. Alas, it got him arrested. Again.

protein
18-11-2004, 16:25:18
As did his his trainer theft (after he'd brought out his own clothing range) his drug offenses, assault offenses and lack of child support payments.

I read his biog somewhere and it's basically a long rap sheet (pun unavoidable). Quite interesting, I suppose he was "keeping it real".

Funkodrom
18-11-2004, 16:28:02
Loads of us have commited some of those. He just got caught.

protein
18-11-2004, 16:29:20
Yeah, I know. Hense him keeping it real despite being stinking rich.

King_Ghidra
18-11-2004, 16:31:55
mike you're staying out of this thread remember

leave protein to his straw man arguments

Funkodrom
18-11-2004, 16:37:03
Oh yeah.

Venom
18-11-2004, 16:38:03
Reminds me of that Dave Chappelle skit about keeping it real.

protein
18-11-2004, 16:54:35
What strawman argument? I was joining in with what Venom said. His life was indeed comical. Legendary even. I can see why people enjoyed reading about his various escapades, like I said, his bio reads like a rapsheet. He was criminally insane in a sort of enjoyable to watch but tragic way.

fp
18-11-2004, 18:23:32
What on earth does "strawman" mean? That's far too much of a 'poly-esque phrase to use here anyway, Ghidra should be punished.

Drekkus
19-11-2004, 15:06:46
Originally posted by Venom
ODB :cry:

I'll never forget the time he went to pick up his food stamps in a limo...on TV. :lol:

Funkodrom
19-11-2004, 15:13:20
Originally posted by fp
What on earth does "strawman" mean? That's far too much of a 'poly-esque phrase to use here anyway, Ghidra should be punished.

It's only a couple of weeks after Guy Fawkes day and you've forgotten already.

Nills Lagerbaak
19-11-2004, 15:14:31
A strawman is a poor man's wicker man. It's not strong enough to hold much so they only burn babies and small foxes.

protein
19-11-2004, 15:15:49
You're on fire today.

Funkodrom
19-11-2004, 15:19:35
He really is. Hopefully a warm up for Prague, we'll come back speaking a whole new language!

Dobry den!

fp
19-11-2004, 18:10:26
nm

Darkstar
19-11-2004, 19:36:47
Originally posted by fp
What on earth does "strawman" mean? That's far too much of a 'poly-esque phrase to use here anyway, Ghidra should be punished.

It means, you exaggerate a point into something you can easily attack and knock over. (Strawmen... easily knocked over dummies posed as something real)

It's a very popular debate illustration technique. I use it occasionally, as do most people that go over 2 lines in their debating replies.

BTW, there's many examples of using strawmen in the "for/against Fox Hunt" threads that are currently in Main.

Provost Harrison
20-11-2004, 01:54:04
Originally posted by protein
If one of the Blazin' Squad drops dead tomorrow I'll make the RIP thread and you can all feel free to comment without having names hurled at you.

Well let's hope that never happens...hope the whole of Blazin' Squad drops dead tomorrow :D