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BigGameHunter
15-07-2004, 16:44:49
I went to see this last night.
I've been a nodding fan of his after watching "Roger and Me" way back. Very good film.

This one felt like it could have done more with the platform, but it succeeded in a couple areas:

1) Making the Bush clan look very bad and in bed with Saudis for family business purposes.

2) Making Prez. Bush look like a complete and utter moron.

3) Creating a real question as to why we have troops in Iraq and if their lives are, in fact, being sacrificed to line politicos' pockets.

One particularly poignant moment I won't spoil here if you see it, but I was alternately guffawing, making 'tsk' noises and wiping off tears.

Don't know if it will win many converts, but it sure helped the leftward swing I've been experiencing and pretty much locked in my vote for Kerry.
I wish to God we had a viable third party here in the US, but I think we're doomed to one administration of the rich after another.

Darkstar
15-07-2004, 19:15:45
Pardon? KERRY?

You do realize that Kerry is only promising more of the same as under Bush, don't you? Or have you not been paying attention? All his stated strategies when he gets *into* office are the same ones as Bush has already released to the public. Now, maybe he will change his mind once in... but I don't see Kerry being an alternative when last week he's on camera stating "If I'd been in President, I would have nuked all of Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, and North Korea on 9-12." Oh, and just a couple of days ago, he stated on camera, "If I'd been President, I would have prevented the attacks on 9-11 and had Bin Laden captured for trying before then."

Kerry says a lot of wild things on camera, but the documents of what he and his future team are going to do when they get in the White House are almost all identical to what the Bush administration has already published.

If you want someone who is going to do things different, you might want to check around for alternatives (or a Sniper's Club). If you just want to exchange one rich boy for another, go ahead, vote for Kerry.

BigGameHunter
15-07-2004, 19:31:40
I will, and I'll do it for Health Care and out of spite, if nothing else.

Darkstar
15-07-2004, 19:40:36
Hey, that's cool. The Political Scientists estimate that 40% of all voters vote purely on how the candidates *look*. ;) And I can remember going "I need a coin" a few times while I was in a voting booth, doing my civic duty...

I honestly don't think Health Care is going to happen if Kerry gets into the White House. I think we are still about 12 years out from a real, National Health Plan. But that's just my opinion. If Kerry really wanted to do National Health Care, he is better poised to bring that about being a senior Senator then being the Prez.

BigGameHunter
15-07-2004, 19:49:28
Oh well...if I'm going to be poor, I'd rather have the Social spending Dems in office.

Darkstar
15-07-2004, 19:54:12
Hey, that's what democracy is all about... voting for the scum that you think will end up doing more good for you. Or less evil, anyways. ;)

JM^3
15-07-2004, 22:14:15
I agree with you, it was good

check out SPUSA (socialist party USA)

they have an Oregonian running for president, and seem not too loony

Jon Miller
(however, they are probably not viable, also Oregon is a swing state and despite how simliar Bush and Kerry would be Bush has done some things that I don't like beyond the standard)

The Mad Monk
16-07-2004, 02:45:44
Commies.

Spartak
16-07-2004, 07:46:51
Originally posted by BigGameHunter

2) Making Prez. Bush look like a complete and utter moron.


Hardly difficult.

Angelhorns
17-07-2004, 20:41:06
Having seen a critique of Moore's Columbine film, I have great difficulty believing any of his propaganda. I understand the desire to discredit Bush, but Moore just lies if he can't dig up enough shit, or misconstrues things very deliberately. Its very easy to make a documentary look convincing and factual, but that doesnt mean it is so.

MOBIUS
17-07-2004, 22:22:01
Was that a Right-Wing critique? ;)

I read his Stupid White Men book, all he has done is collate a lot of material that is out there if you dig deep enough and ask the right people - almost all of it appears to be completely true.

The problem about him is that he does appear to twist things slightly and does come across as a real fanatic - but that doesn't stop the fact that his basic premises are essentially true...

And besides, Bush makes him look like a fucking amateur when it comes to twisting the truth...

Chris
17-07-2004, 23:22:14
Moore does a lot more than twist the truth slightly, here is an example, from a left wing pundit on the movie:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=14378134&method=full&siteid=50143

If you don't like this guy, there are a large number of articles about the half-truths and distortions of the movie.

BTW, the family of one of the men the film used in a funeral scene is incensed at Moore.

Moore is right up there with Goebbels for proaganda making it seems.

Help TCO
18-07-2004, 01:22:47
It is hilarious that they gave the Cannes Prize to a documentary this dishonest. Just goes to show how fucked they are. I thought maybe there were some reasonable opponents of the war, but when the run Moore up the flag...

Angelhorns
18-07-2004, 03:24:22
Originally posted by MOBIUS
Was that a Right-Wing critique? ;)

I read his Stupid White Men book, all he has done is collate a lot of material that is out there if you dig deep enough and ask the right people - almost all of it appears to be completely true.

The problem about him is that he does appear to twist things slightly and does come across as a real fanatic - but that doesn't stop the fact that his basic premises are essentially true...

And besides, Bush makes him look like a fucking amateur when it comes to twisting the truth...

no it was a film student, and he pointed out several ways in which Moore had manipulated the truth/circumstances or just lied outright.

I dont believe Moore's premise for Columbine was in any way true, since it was almost all manipulation and lies. WHile he could have made a worthwhile doc about gun ownership and the link to youth crime, he instead chose to humiliate Charlton Heston on deeply unfair grounds, and make a load of stuff up to back his theories up.

Just because Bush lies, doesnt make it ok for Moore to do it too. All we have there is two liars instead of one.

Venom
18-07-2004, 03:39:16
I just wish it had been actual balanced political piece. That might have been interesting. I'm not interested in paying to watch propaganda. I've got all the media I could ever want in front of me doing that already.

Venom
18-07-2004, 03:42:16
Futhermore, I'd be ashamed to walk out of that crap and have been swayed by it.

RedFred
21-07-2004, 20:07:03
I came. I saw. I wasn't impressed.

A pretty propaganda piece, but I doubt that this will sway many US voters in either direction.

Last time the US collectively went crazy was with the commie scare in the fifties. The revisionist writers of US history blamed it all on a single wingnut senator.

I expect this time will be no different. They will refer to this period as the Rumsfieldian era or some such nonsense. The trampling of US human rights, the ignorance of foriegn legal rights and a war of aggression against a toothless dictator will be protrayed as the influence of an evil senior few in the presidential administration against the honourable US citizens.

But I believe far more people are culpable. The voters in general, and the two party presidential system which often pits two candidates that are far from the best the US has to offer, for another.

The power of propaganda, indeed. I expect that a sizable portion of the US public still believes the 'weapons of mass destruction' or the 'Saddam and Osama are friends' big lies.

Funkodrom
21-07-2004, 22:50:10
Originally posted by Angelhorns
no it was a film student, and he pointed out several ways in which Moore had manipulated the truth/circumstances or just lied outright.

And someone has pointed out how what the critique said was crap and so on and so on.

The Shaker
02-08-2004, 16:32:30
Saw this last night.

Wasn't very impressed.
As a documentary it seemed to lack structure....sure it went along chronologically somewhat ...but really he never seemed to chop it up into areas he was trying to address. Just seemed like a random scattergun approach.

The message seemed to be that the guys at the top, who control the country, use it to their advantage, rip off everone else, make money from shady business dealings and are generally complete twats. hardly groundbreaking news. (see the uk government past present and future).

Nice bit of hypocrasy......

mention Saudi and you get a picture of a hardnosed rich tycoon shaking hands with the pres. (every saudi is a hardnosed rich tycoon of course)
mention Iraqi and you get a picture of a happy smiling child running through fields (becasue iraq was such a happy smily place before the 'mericans came along)

The bit about the misuse of the terrorism act (or whatever it was) was probably the only part which was in any way decent.

He could probably have got his point across better by just repeating 'i hate bush i hate bush' 20 000 times.

That being said the whole bit with the family who lost their son was rather poignant...though it wuld have been better without any of moore's ranting around it.


Did get a free badge though.

BigGameHunter
02-08-2004, 16:44:54
This is the first election that I'm pretty apathetic about who to vote for. It has always been clear to me before (and always Dem) because the Rep. opponent seemed like an evil puppet piece of shit.
Part of me wants to see Bush clean up the fucking mess we are in, but the other part of me, the part who has seen nothing but diminishing returns since the end of Clinton's reign, wants to throw cuation to the wind and vote for someone new.
Somehow, I just don't like Kerry...he seems super phony and very holier-than-thou...I know he is mega rich and will also have the same "let them eat cake" attitude Bush Jr. has as well.

Goddam politics should be a lottery system...put a fucking dairy farmer in there with a bunch of iron workers in the Supreme Court...America's system is really starting to rot at the head.