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MDA
20-05-2004, 20:00:04
Are the differences between Athlon 64 and the 64 FX worth it - is an intel P4 worth it?

Radeon 9800pro, 256mb or an X800? :p

Suggestions on a soundcard????? I could scavenge the one out of my old system.

Cooling, case, other recommendations?

Also, what should I get first - I'm thinking video card, b/c I can use it in my old system, but I'm open to suggestions on the rest.

Sir Penguin
20-05-2004, 20:12:42
Get an Athlon64 rather than a Pentium 4. The FX line probably isn't worth it, but it's damned cool.

For the video card, wait until PCI-X gets going.

A good motherboard will come with sound on-board. Hold this one off for PCI-X, too.

The case depends on whether you want quiet, or cool. Antec makes great cases. They have a line called Sonata which shields noise, but sacrifices airflow. They have another line called Lanboy, which is very light, very mobile, and very cool.

I wouldn't get any of them first. I would put the money I was going to spend on the part into a high-interest bank account, or a GIC, or a term deposit, or whatever, and buy a whole new computer when I had enough money saved up.

SP

zmama
20-05-2004, 20:19:25
PCI-X should be all over the place by late summer/ fall. Put off your purchases until then. All new stuff will be happening .

in other words...what the Penguin said!

Deacon
21-05-2004, 08:06:31
That would be PCI Express. PCI-X is something else IIRC. I think it's the old parallel PCI running faster.

Sir Penguin
21-05-2004, 08:19:07
Yeah, I meant PCI Express.

SP

MDA
21-05-2004, 11:19:48
I'm not planning on overclocking my first home-built machine, but I'd take it a little cooler so long as it isn't too much louder. The box itself is under my desk, but has plenty of airspace around it - I occasionally hear the CD drive spin up in my current computer, but that's about it.

Telling me to wait is just mean, even if it makes sense. :)

MDA
21-05-2004, 11:20:27
http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleid=1087&page=1

Neat.

Lurker
21-05-2004, 15:10:13
What's PCI-X?

MDA
21-05-2004, 15:38:01
Lurker:

Now all things considered, it is probably a good thing that the PCI bus has remained essentially unchanged since its inception. For one thing, it works.

It has provided a stable and flexible platform for hardware and software developers to build on for almost a decade. Anyone who remembers the days before Windows 95 and 'Plug and Play' devices will understand why computers have become so much more common since then.

Now there are three other PCI specifications in existence, all designed to increase the amount of available bandwidth. These are 66MHz PCI, PCI-X at 64bit/133MHz, and the soon to be introduced PCI-X 2.0.

The trouble is, while these technologies have, or soon will find a permanent home in the server market, the complexities and extra costs they introduce to motherboard manufacturing mean that they will be virtually unknown at the desktop level. PCI-X, for example, requires a controller for every slot and that is just too expensive. The solution to this is being backed by everyone's favorite processor manufacturer, Intel.

Lurker
21-05-2004, 16:02:39
Didn't realize that's what the link was about. Thanks.

MDA
21-05-2004, 16:09:16
Summaries are important.

Deacon
22-05-2004, 08:20:49
The Antec Solution Series is solid.

The BQE3700 is similar internally to the Sonata, with the hard drive mounts turned 90 degrees. Unlike the Sonata, it has a weaker 350W PSU, and room for a front 120mm fan. It's a great case for those who wouldn't mind buying another PSU to replace the one bundled with the case.

I have the SLK2600, which is not as nice as the BQE3700. Smaller fans, fewer drive mounts, less room, and the plastic fairing that covers the screws for expansion cards can block the left-most ports of some cards. I ended up cutting mine down with a Dremel tool.

As for power supplies, I have an Antec True430. It's quiet, has Serial ATA connectors, and it can control fans connected to the "fan only" connectors. I'm not sure how it does that without temperature sensors, but I've been using generic 80mm fans with the connectors and the box never gets too warm. For those who need more, it might be a good idea to plug manually adjustable Enermax fans into the standard 4-pin connectors.

No longer Trippin
23-05-2004, 05:02:30
As far as video card, if you like running things with max details, the x800 Pro 256 as the 9800 Pro's (128 or 256) (and XT's) are already taxed with the Farcry. Unless you don't mind turning graphics down as it's price versus the x800 is attractive. 400 to 180. There is the argument using the old HL2 benches in which the 9800 benched very well, but seeing how alpha that product was (they admitted recently) there will be more refinements in it so I imagine it could be as taxing if not moreso than FarCry at high details and resolutions. Also recommend an Antec PSU and case, 350 to 400 watts. As far as the cpu, the A63400. The X800 Pro can be AGP - PCI-X is really more of a boon for running SCSI RAID as your not bottlenecked by the 133 mb/s PCI transfer rate along with whatever else is pissing down the pipe. PCI-X right now is really only for the utmost in performance graphics as AGP is still providing more than enough bandwidth. As far as PCI-X not making it to the mainstream, it will in time. It's high-end decktop at the moment. Alienware will be shipping systems with it (capable of dual vid card usage, though any PCI-X 16x2 will be capable). So it's already here, whether it stays for the desktop, I think it will.

MDA
29-05-2004, 13:28:18
Any ideas on 19" gaming LCDs???

I couldn't find anything very current on THG. Samsung in general looks good, though.

Nevermind. :p Just blew most of my first paycheck.

No longer Trippin
29-05-2004, 21:59:26
Don't make me go on a diatribe about how much I hate THG.

The Mad Monk
07-06-2004, 16:24:23
Is it PCI-X yet?

The Mad Monk
07-06-2004, 16:28:56
Originally posted by Sir Penguin
The case depends on whether you want quiet, or cool. Antec makes great cases. They have a line called Sonata which shields noise, but sacrifices airflow. They have another line called Lanboy, which is very light, very mobile, and very cool.
SP

What if you want big?

zmama
07-06-2004, 18:35:55
They make big too

MDA
07-06-2004, 19:36:45
http://www20.tomshardware.com/howto/20040607/index.html

mid size case review, though.

I'm looking for a full tower, too. My hands are too big to work in those little cases.

zmama
07-06-2004, 19:50:51
Thats where the female touch is a plus :D

MDA
07-06-2004, 19:54:50
Its not as much fun if she gets to put it together. :(

http://www20.tomshardware.com/howto/20030428/index.html

More cases.

The Mad Monk
08-06-2004, 05:40:58
Oooooh...sweeeet. (http://www.hardcoreware.net/reviews/review-172-1.htm)

The Mad Monk
08-06-2004, 08:50:36
This one is certainly different. (http://www.xoxide.com/xulalcucu.html)

The Mad Monk
08-06-2004, 08:55:26
Did I say different? (http://www.xoxide.com/aeluca.html)

Sir Penguin
10-06-2004, 02:42:14
Originally posted by zmama
Thats where the female touch is a plus :D
That's female? :(

SP

MDA
10-06-2004, 11:54:24
:)

The Mad Monk
10-06-2004, 18:40:33
The cases are a bit of a shock to me -- how long has this concept of removable drive bays and motherboard trays been around? It's such a simple, elegant concept, but I haven't read of it before.

zmama
10-06-2004, 18:51:49
Is your computer from the 80's? ;)

MDA
11-06-2004, 03:09:16
Bah, I'd never heard of a removable motherboard tray before a few weeks ago, either. That's probably little consolation to The Mad Monk.

The Mad Monk
11-06-2004, 06:52:58
I've owned "real" computers since 1987.

Four of them, to be exact.

The first was a Tandy 1000SX, sporting an 8088 chip and running at a blazing 8 MHz. It actually still runs fine...now where did that boot disk go...

The second one was a no-name 386/33 that had a "turbo" switch that would bring it all the way up to 40. We had many enjoyable nights of DOOM together. I got it from my brother in...1994? He replaced it with a Micron Pentium...90, I think. It still runs -- or would, if I hadn't stripped the hard drives out of it long ago.

The third one was the Pentium 90, in 1997 -- Christmas, in fact. I forget what he replaced it with. It had windows 95. It also had limitations that required oddball filing systems to use the larger hard drives that were on the market by then. It catastrophically crashed hard drives with annoying frequency, so I finally got fed up with it in early 1999 and got:

My fourth and current computer, an NEC PIII/450, now with dual 80 gig drives and 196 Mb RAM. It's five years old, it has all the power I really need, and I love it, but the last scare convinced me that I really need two fully operational computers, for my own peace of mind.

Not one of the above boxes have anything vaguely like the features I'm seeing in those cases. :)

The Mad Monk
11-06-2004, 06:58:31
Reading the above reminded me that I can do without cutting edge -- though I'm going to get a cool case, anyway.

Right now, it's between the X-SuperAlien, or the X-Ion. Blue, either way. :)

The Mad Monk
11-06-2004, 06:59:48
No consolation required -- this is definately very cool. :)

Deacon
11-06-2004, 07:25:52
Some cases have removable motherboard trays, but most Antecs don't. Changing power supplies in a small case can get interesting without a tray to move the motherboard out of the way. And once I found myself shaking the (empty) case to get rid of the snapped-off part of a brass standoff that I screwed in too tightly. A tray would simplify the task by allowing me access to the area behind the motherboard.

Pros considered, I'd take a pretty good case without a tray over a lousy case with a tray.

No longer Trippin
14-06-2004, 20:42:25
It has been around for quite awhile, but only select manufactuter's made them and even now it isn't a big ticket item as not many people need it as they don't toy around with computer THAT much as to need it. Mainly an extreme overclocker and tinkerer toy, that is about it. I really have never found it useful in my case as I still have to disconnection practically everything to get the thing out and also somewhere I can work on it. What are a few screws added to that? Nothing really.

The Mad Monk
15-06-2004, 10:09:57
Okay, so I am looking at an Athlon 64 paired with an Asus k8v motherboard, with either 512 or a gig of memory.

What I need to know is, is the 1Mb cache on the 3200 worth the extra $$$ over the 512 Kb cache on the 3000?

I also need to know if there are any dealbreakers on the Asus -- if there's something wrong with it that's not showing up in the reviews.

No longer Trippin
15-06-2004, 16:33:01
512k over 1MB? It is what actually gives it a higher PR marking with that chip IIRC. :) Yes it is worth it IMO. Asus is a solid brand. They make boards that are reliable enough that OEM's purchase them consistantly. Not my brand of choice, but that is only because they don't cater as well to the overclocker as some other manufacturers. Since your not going to do something as dumb as wantingly destroying practically every warranty in the computer, Asus is a good choice. Just make sure it has everything you need or will need. They are a top tier manufacturer and have good suppport as well. Get a gig of ram. Crucial for some cheap reliable PC3200 with a lifetime warranty. Even will tell you which sticks will work with your board if ordered from their website. Any other ram such as Corsair, Kingston, or OCZ isn't worth it as the extra price doesn't add much more to performance. Mainly it is for enthuisest or those with a deep wallet.

The Mad Monk
15-06-2004, 18:12:07
Okay, thanks!

Sir Penguin
15-06-2004, 18:37:08
Is the K8T800 better than the nForce 3?

SP

No longer Trippin
16-06-2004, 02:14:57
They are about the same. VIA has a nearly unbenchable performance lead last time I checked, though an unsteady PCI/AGP lock. The nforce3 250's have a working lock. Most won't need that, so if you don't, just pick a board that has the features you need as VIA appears to haven't totally screwed up a chipset again surprisingly so nvidia has competition again.

The Mad Monk
16-06-2004, 07:11:16
I was looking at CPU and other chip coolers on the market, and was surprised at the lack of silver heatsinks. I mean, why not? Silver has the best conductive properties, is easier to work with than aluminum, is very light, and it isn't all that expensive (http://www.ccsilver.com/silver/ssheet2.html) -- especially considering the intricate work involved in some of these things.

What is up with these "heatpipe" designs, anyway?

The Mad Monk
16-06-2004, 07:35:08
So naturally, after asking about this, I find a silver-plated heatsink (http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=1282), which isn't really what I'm looking for, but is a step in the right direction.

Sir Penguin
16-06-2004, 07:37:26
Aren't you over your silver-buying phase? :)

SP

The Mad Monk
16-06-2004, 07:47:58
Well...I was...

The Mad Monk
16-06-2004, 09:32:23
Okay, figured out the heatpipes, they're satellite tech, cool...:)

No longer Trippin
16-06-2004, 17:48:35
As to why they are copper, it is cheaper, and the thernmal conductivity of silver isn't that much higher (as Cu is to Al). It is 406 vs 385. That is barely a 5% improvement for a good deal more than a 5% cost increase. The difference between copper and aluminum is MUCH greater. When two waterblocks of the same design, yet different material (copper vs. 99.99% purity silver block) were compared at www.overclockers.com, there was practically no difference. The silver one had a lower standard of deviation on the test, but we are talking one degree Celcius in the since this is watercooling (same setups exactly) and this is one of the best designs around, with only two doing better, and not much so.

The stock heatsink should do you just fine. You'll run a little warm, but still well within the safety specs of the chip. If you want an aftermarket, if your motherboard can fit it, get the Zalman CPNS AlCu (lighter, cheaper, and nearly the same cooling capacity). You can check Zalman's website to see what boards it fits. It's also quieter than the stock heatsink and will outperform many highend heatsinks which need a fan which is more than slightly audible.

Also as to price, that is silver sheeting, not block which explains the price. If you compare the cost of block (and while silver is soft, so is aluminum, so they incur nearly the same cost during machining - which isn't hard nor expensive). You then have to gaurd the stuff on a large industrial scale for it being silver. More money. Aluminum is just dirt cheap, and while copper actually cost more, it is necessary now even on stock heatsinks. That is why you see such crap stock heatsinks from Intel and AMD, a little slug of poor grade copper attached in the worst of ways to a small cheap aluminum heatsink. And surprise surprise, there is a cheap fan on the top of it as well. Cost rules in the this industry, and if the performance can be achieved with less, they will use what is the cheapest. The prescott's heat problems and the shabby heatsink it ships with that 30 odd piped POS only further contribute to the problem and are is excellent example (not talking about the reference model for BTX, but the crappy as all hell current design). This is from the company with money.

MDA
16-06-2004, 19:53:58
Would you go with copper heatsinks alone as much as possible, or a combo of quiet fans and copper heatsinks?

...and can either of those keep temperatures as low as an off-the shelf Dell or Gateway?

Sir Penguin
16-06-2004, 20:20:02
The temp'ratures aren't low in Dell's machines
They're stuffy, small and black, and suck in heat.
They sacrifice airflow for quiet fans
So their machines don't sound like jet engines.

SP

zmama
16-06-2004, 20:36:40
*sniff*

beautiful geek poetry

No longer Trippin
17-06-2004, 03:29:15
lol

No, I think aluiminum has it's place, just that copper needs to be employed with it. Unless your planning on going over stock speeds you really don't need pure copper heatsinks (yet) or high speed fans to extract the most performance from them. They perform best with high speed fans as copper benefits from the extra impingment force of them but will work better than stock.

The best heatsink on the market in terms of thermal dissipation is all copper and then nickel plated from thermalright. It is also massive as it takes a 120mm fan (made for the prescott of course :) ). Some AlCu hybrids come close in performance to the top tier copper, but none equal it - with all aluminum heatsinks at the bottom generally.

The Mad Monk
17-06-2004, 05:31:03
While doing some research on it, I ran across this:

http://www.overclockers.com/tips188/

Since I already have a small pile of silver coins, I found this very interesting. :)

Remember how I said my new hard drives appeared to be running hot? I put a few coins on 'em.

"Hey look! Silver heatsinks!"

:D

More seriously, is the weight of all that metal any concern?

Sir Penguin
17-06-2004, 06:01:42
It is a worry on the CPU.
They publish recommended specs for weight
Of heatsink/fans (therefore AlCu:
A lighter metal on a copper base)

SP

The Mad Monk
17-06-2004, 07:53:26
Some of these monstrosities look like they be fine if the motherboard were horizontal, but how often is that the case anymore?

Take this one, for example:

http://lib1.store.vip.sc5.yahoo.com/lib/xoxide/tower1122.jpg

...which, in a normal, vertical motherboard, has over a pound of copper hanging out in space, attached to your CPU...

MDA
17-06-2004, 16:11:26
is that torque or shear. Sheesh, engineer terms.

The Mad Monk
17-06-2004, 20:33:28
Torque. If it's shear, you didn't attach the clip right.

No longer Trippin
18-06-2004, 05:30:29
That heatsink is for Intel's prescott and for BTX form factor in which you can attach the heatsink to the case (the chip produces that much heat and does less work per MHz than it's predecessor to boot - which isn't uncommon as this allows it to go fsater and in theory do more work, though with heat, it isn't happening, that's why you see the monster you shown up there). Aftermarket of course, though the reference sink Intel wants to use is around 2 pounds, hence why they want BTX so much. AMD comes close with it's highest speed chips, but it has an open die which gives it an extra advantage in thermal dissipation as it is more direct. Temp drops about 3C from Intel's heatshield (which also prevents core crushing) due to the lack of it though now your core is crushible if you are that clumsy.

Many heavier heatsinks you can mount through your motherboard if you feel worried about the weight. I have an SLK-800 (pure copper, heavy, and huge - though not as huge as what you posted, it only mounts a 92mm fan on it) and I have the socket clasp version. Been through two motherboards so far and hasn't hurty a single one and they haven't had the best treatment. The bolts can be a pain if you've already installed your motherboard in your case, but in a new system it isn't all that bad and the weight isn't truly a concern long as you also properly fasten your motherboard.

Sir Penguin
18-06-2004, 05:45:13
Because the corp'rate engineering staff
Appraise the highest value of the weight
And cut the devised result into half
To cover up their asses well and straight.

SP

The Mad Monk
18-06-2004, 06:42:33
You're just fishing for complements now, aren't you? :hmm:

Deacon
18-06-2004, 10:01:18
Looks like PCs will soon require HVAC technicians.

No longer Trippin
19-06-2004, 02:59:15
More like plumbers.

Deacon
19-06-2004, 06:35:22
Liquid nitrogen is the future. :)

The Mad Monk
19-06-2004, 09:43:00
My window air conditioner and a desk fan is the present. :)

No longer Trippin
20-06-2004, 02:36:36
Running on air right now. Deciding whether or not to upgrade and if I do, it will be water cooling and possibly a pelt on the CPU. Just the only "weakness" that shows right now is the graphics card (9800 Pro) and I have to wait until the BS clears on the new lineups.

If you live where it isn't humid, you can duct your AC into your case. :)

The Mad Monk
20-06-2004, 12:06:52
Even if it is humid, the AC should do a fine job dehumidfying, and even if it's not quite sufficient, condensation shouldn't be a problem as long as the piped air is colder than all interior surfaces.

Sooner or later, computers will come in refrigerated cases. :)

MDA
20-06-2004, 18:36:22
...and still have room for a six pack.

Still waiting. I now have enough money, but its going into a money market or something until I'm "ready"

I was all ready to get an ASUS motherboard, now I'm worried it'll fry everything. Thanks, Asher. :p

The Mad Monk
20-06-2004, 20:05:37
Given what nye said, I think I'll take the risk. :)

No longer Trippin
21-06-2004, 01:11:57
Asus is a respected name - or was before they tried to cut corners on non-OEM boards. Personally I use Abit, EPoX, MSI, or Albatron. Asus boards tend to always have a glitch or two on AMD platforms that you won't know if you'll get it until you actually install everything. Then it is a wee bit too late.

Asher
21-06-2004, 06:25:03
Asus is apparently pronounced a-zeus.

The Mad Monk
21-06-2004, 08:19:15
Originally posted by No longer Trippin
Asus is a respected name - or was before they tried to cut corners on non-OEM boards. Personally I use Abit, EPoX, MSI, or Albatron. Asus boards tend to always have a glitch or two on AMD platforms that you won't know if you'll get it until you actually install everything. Then it is a wee bit too late.

But...but...you said

Originally posted by No longer Trippin
512k over 1MB? It is what actually gives it a higher PR marking with that chip IIRC. :) Yes it is worth it IMO. Asus is a solid brand. They make boards that are reliable enough that OEM's purchase them consistantly. Not my brand of choice, but that is only because they don't cater as well to the overclocker as some other manufacturers. Since your not going to do something as dumb as wantingly destroying practically every warranty in the computer, Asus is a good choice. Just make sure it has everything you need or will need. They are a top tier manufacturer and have good suppport as well. Get a gig of ram. Crucial for some cheap reliable PC3200 with a lifetime warranty. Even will tell you which sticks will work with your board if ordered from their website. Any other ram such as Corsair, Kingston, or OCZ isn't worth it as the extra price doesn't add much more to performance. Mainly it is for enthuisest or those with a deep wallet.

I'M SO CONFUUUSED!!! :cry:

Sir Penguin
21-06-2004, 08:44:04
I don't think it's fair to condemn all Asus boards, but like with any brand, it's best to read a bunch of customer reviews before buying.

SP

Lurker
21-06-2004, 13:09:44
When I built my computer I looked at the motherboard reviews a bit and ASUS seemed to get good reviews overall. I ended up having to return it though. Never could get it to work.

zmama
21-06-2004, 14:09:21
I've been happier with my EPoX boards than the ASUS, but it's more to do with the chipset than the MB

MDA
21-06-2004, 15:37:40
How about some advice on chipsets? How important? I can't tell the difference from the stuff I've read.

zmama
21-06-2004, 16:01:58
My chipset knowledge isn't really up to date (I last bought in 2003), but Via seems to have improved since the Nforce chipsets challenged them.

Better wait for Trip to float back in :)

No longer Trippin
21-06-2004, 19:23:08
VIA has actually gotten together a solid chipset that I would actually buy, and VIA is a company that has left a bad taste in my mouth many times for not being able to get simple features to work until their next chipset is being turned out. I'd go VIA over Nvidia at the moment seeing the improved BIOS VIA has been able to roll out. www.hardocp.com has a VIA review in the top three links. It's an Abit board, but it shows off the beta BIOS and Kyle at OCP is fairly thorough in torture testing and he gave it a thumbs up. EDIT: shit, it's off the front page now. It's in the archives, should be one of the newer ones.

As for Asus, what I mean by cut corners (and all manufacturer's that sell to large OEM's do this) is that sometimes Dell will get an exact copy of a board that you can buy, only the bios is different and maybe the caps are a bit pricier - this is so they don't have to do a massive recall and piss a major buyer off. Companies now generally don't go cheap on board components after the capacitor fiasco of several years back with the bad resin formula. Everyone bit a chunk off practically every manufacturer of boards out there, as they all bought the cheap capacitors with the stolen (incomplete) resin formula. The only reason it didn't mothball is that power requirements aren't like they are now. Mainly overclockers were hitting this but people who were running a Gateway would get it sometimes as well. Poof, dead board and a nice carbon marking on your case. I haven't heard of other makers boards failing to the point they are warning people, so that means to me that Asus is cutting corners on our side of the market at least. Though Asher had to dig through a PDA to find it, so other makers may have the same problem if they are stupid enough to repeat the cheap cap deal.

I loved my EPoX boards I've owned. Though lately there offerings are harder to get and aren't as good (in the states). After my EPoX went out (massive overclock, it was bound to happen) I've switched to an Albatron and it's rock solid and performing better than the EPoX. I've built a few Abit and MSI platforms and they haven't keeled over. I've stayed away from Asus only recently because after the fiasco with their flagship XP board with SATA (nothing big, but shouldn't have happened for a 150 dollar board when 75 dollar boards are getting it right). Asus on an Intel platform though will nearly always been one of the better solutions you can get, just for AMD, they haven't been the best with them as you can get better boards for cheaper generally. They all now have the same feature sets practically anyhow - just you pay more for the Asus name.

The Mad Monk
22-06-2004, 06:23:53
One of the reasons I wanted the Asus board is that THG (I know, Trip, I know :)) claims that it is one of the few boards that makes use of AMD's "Cool & Quiet" feature. From what I've read, C&Q is A Good Thing. :)

Which other boards support it?

The Mad Monk
22-06-2004, 06:32:04
MSI K8T Neo was mentioned as another C&Q user. It also overclocks itself under "heavy loads" -- I'm not sure I'm crazy about that idea.

The Mad Monk
22-06-2004, 07:59:42
Then there's this problem with memory not necessarily working as advertised, depending on the stick and the board:

http://www6.tomshardware.com/motherboard/20040602/index.html

Now it seems that, even as a non-overclocker, this is something I should pay attention to. Should I?

Deacon
22-06-2004, 08:14:49
I like MSI. Their boards are stable, and they come in an attractive red color.

The i865 + ICH5 is a good chipset for Intel.

No longer Trippin
22-06-2004, 14:31:15
All motherboards have had issues with memory. This one just happens to be a bastard, though I know of most who have an A64 system running a gig in it 2 x 512 of Corsair, or Kingston. If you want to save money you can try crucial. Give them the name of the motherboard and they'll tell you what sticks will work. Not the tightest timings, but the difference in timings is minimal anyhow. Not to mention lifetime warranty and if they screw up and the module doesn't work, they will send you one that does - if you deal directly through them.

Toms blow a lot of issues up that don't need to be, and this is one of them - most manufacturer's have either gotten around this or magically everyone I know or talk to with an A64 setup is happily running stuff with twin sticks of double sided memory. If your all that worried, just grab a 256x2 pair and a 512 module. That should adhere to Tom's warning's and give you a gig of 3200. You can't use dual channel unless you go to socket 939, and the chips on that end are hideously expensive (or expensive and heavily nuetered). The best bang is at 754 right now for the A64.

MDA
22-06-2004, 15:15:26
So, PCI Express chipsets for Athlon 64 boards... yet to be released AFAIK.

SiS 756 (Athlon 64FX only?)
Via PT890 (Athlon 64?)

The Mad Monk
23-06-2004, 00:38:48
Okay, I'll check that out tonight.

The Mad Monk
23-06-2004, 10:30:08
Case has been ordered, X-SuperAlien. Nifty!

Spent alot of the evening trying to determine the difference between the Asus k8v deluxe and Asus k8v se deluxe -- the only difference I found was the gigabit ethernet: 3COM 3C940 controller versus Marvell 88E8001 GbLAN controller, both of which have the "unique net-diagnosing utility-- VCT (Virtual Cable Tester)".

No longer Trippin
24-06-2004, 02:27:22
PCI Express is BS for most consumers. Unless your running a SCSI array and need a high thoroughput control card you or are doing VERY high level CAD rendering, the PCI/AGP bus is practically empty for all intents and purposes. Forgot the article or site that talked about this but it made some incredibly good points and pointed to some chipmakers (SiS in particular) using the PCI bus for AGP which tremendously cuts down on theoretical bandwidth, yet it only takes a slight hit from this - even with FarCry and running a PCI sound card. Will have to dredge up a couple forums to see if I can find it. Interesting read.

PCI-Express is just a great way to get you to toss all your old stuff eventually and yes, to replace an outdated system. But as for games taking advantage of it, not anytime soon. You'll need faster chips (and .9 is a bitch) and games to take advantage of that.

I'm not getting it until it's been out and abused for awhile (and it becomes available and used on AMD) so I don't run into any issues with devices not wanting to work and whatnot from first generation bugs and plain screwups. Even then it is for the bandwidth it'll provide a new controller card (which isn't gonna be cheap :( ) and not for the graphics, though it'll have to be because by the time I PLAN on upgrading most high end vid cards will be PCI-Express.

The Mad Monk
24-06-2004, 06:38:39
So, this is the shopping list:

Athlon 64 3200+ OEM at Newegg.com, $270
http://www.newegg.com/oldversion/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=19-103-413&depa=1

Asus k8v se deluxe motherboard Retail at Newegg.com, $121
http://www.newegg.com/oldversion/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=13-131-490&depa=1

Either:
Microsoft Windows XP Professional with Service Pack SP1a - OEM at Newegg.com, $135
http://www.newegg.com/oldversion/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=37-102-143&depa=6
Or:
Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition with Service Pack SP1a - OEM at Newegg.com, $90
http://www.newegg.com/oldversion/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=37-102-141&depa=6

Any problems here? Is XP Pro worth the extra $45?

The Mad Monk
24-06-2004, 06:48:59
Two of these:
Western Digital Special Edition 80GB 7200RPM IDE Hard Drive, Model WD800JB, OEM Drive Only at Newegg.com, $137 total
http://www.newegg.com/oldversion/app/viewproductdesc.asp?description=22-144-122&DEPA=0

These are the drives I bought when my computer crashed six months ago -- they run pretty hot, but otherwise they appear to be pretty solid.

The Mad Monk
24-06-2004, 07:10:43
Memory (2 sticks):
Crucial Technology 512MB CT6464Z40B DDR PC3200 CL=3 Non-parity at Crucial.com, $194 total
http://www.crucial.com/store/listparts.asp?Mfr%2BProductline=ASUS%2B+Motherboar ds&mfr=ASUS&cat=RAM&model=K8V+SE+Deluxe&submit=Go

The Mad Monk
24-06-2004, 07:22:14
That's $857, not considering shipping, tax, and tips.

I still have to get a video card and I/O...:(

Um...how well do those keyboard/monitor sharing devices work? :bounce:

The Mad Monk
24-06-2004, 07:52:24
Okay, I'll add one of these to solve that pesky "no money left for a monitor" problem:

Linksys ProConnect Integrated KVM 2-Port Switch, Model "KVM2KIT" -RETAIL at Newegg.com (sense a pattern, here), $36.50

http://www.newegg.com/oldversion/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=17-107-702&depa=0

The Mad Monk
24-06-2004, 20:05:17
One other question -- what's the difference between the OEM and Retail CPU packages, and is it worth the extra twelve bucks?

zmama
24-06-2004, 20:57:02
Depends...retail will often give you a longer warranty. Read the fine print.

And for you with just two computers...XP home should do fine.

What you really should invest in, living where you do (brownouts and thunderstorms), is a UPS. Look for one that conditions the power.

The Mad Monk
25-06-2004, 04:42:50
Okay, thanks!

I've been using UPS units for probably around a decade now. :)

This is what I have now (or something close to it, I recall an XS instead of an RS):

http://www.digiconcepts.com/apc_ups_33.htm

Asher
25-06-2004, 05:43:40
Hah.

Athlon 64 3200+ & ASUS K8V Deluxe SE...sounds familiar.

Asher
25-06-2004, 05:44:33
Originally posted by zmama
Depends...retail will often give you a longer warranty. Read the fine print.

And for you with just two computers...XP home should do fine.

What you really should invest in, living where you do (brownouts and thunderstorms), is a UPS. Look for one that conditions the power.
Don't Retails also come with a stock HSF?

It was my understanding that OEM parts have no warranty, as well.

Asher
25-06-2004, 05:46:03
Also, the Zalman CNPS-7000A is the best HSF, ever.

My CPU fan doesn't even turn on 99% of the time, only when I'm under load does it turn on. And even then, it's at like 1000rpm and makes no noise.

It is kickass.

The Mad Monk
25-06-2004, 06:12:29
Originally posted by Asher
Hah.

Athlon 64 3200+ & ASUS K8V Deluxe SE...sounds familiar.

I thought it might. :)

I'm going to gamble that all the bad caps have already, um, passed. Newegg is a high turnover mechant, so I think it's a good bet.

The Mad Monk
25-06-2004, 06:53:05
What the hell, is this a misprint?

http://www.newegg.com/oldversion/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=19-103-413&depa=1

...which is the same link as the original, shows a 1 Mb L2 cache, while

http://www.newegg.com/oldversion/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=19-103-483&depa=1

...shows a 512 Kb L2 cache -- ???

The Mad Monk
25-06-2004, 06:54:29
Two different cores...okay, which is better, clawhammer or newcastle?

Asher
25-06-2004, 15:56:17
They're just different, they perform about the same.

The 1MB L2 cache is 2GHz (what I have), the other has 0.5MB L2 cache but 2.2GHz.

The Mad Monk
26-06-2004, 08:36:49
Based on the Poly exchange, Newcastle it is, retail:
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=19-103-483&depa=1

Ordering commences in thirty minutes.

The Mad Monk
27-06-2004, 09:47:36
Superalien case from Xoxide is in -- I had it sent to my brothers place (he's there, and theorectically awake, during the day), and it arrived Friday, so high marks for shipping speed. Two minor scratches on the top, which a little touch-up paint should handle, but I'm a tad disappointed because it could have been better.

NO POWER SUPPLY WITH CASE. They don't actually say there is a power supply with it, but every review, and every other merchandiser mentions the MATCHED POWER SUPPLY, so I jumped to a conclusion probably shouldn't have but seemed logical at the time.

The case looks and feels pretty solid, in spite of being aluminum (expected), and I played with the drive bays a bit -- that's all I really could do, since I have nothing to schtuff it with, yet.

That's right. Schtuff.

No longer Trippin
27-06-2004, 23:24:49
Get an Antec or a Fortron at 400-450 watts to give yourself plenty of overhead which will keep the heat down and the fans running slower if you have that option not to mention it's better for the components to have overhead from the PSU, as when it is struggling, it sends out happy little dips and surges.

No CD, DVD, monitor, keyboard, mouse? Man that computer is gonna suck regardless without a way to install an OS to get it to work. :)

The Mad Monk
28-06-2004, 04:19:22
It will be sharing the m/k/m with my other computer, smart guy.

The rest will be ordered shortly. :)

No longer Trippin
28-06-2004, 05:20:42
Does the other computer plan on sharing? :)

The Mad Monk
28-06-2004, 06:02:20
It's never been big on planning.

The Mad Monk
28-06-2004, 13:12:56
Okay, I took the time to actually look at the box the case came in, and it VERY CLEARLY features the very 500W UV reactive clear power supply that is mentioned in all the reviews, and is absent from the case.

By VERY CLEARLY, I mean, not only is it shown, installed, in the case in a photo on the side of box at roughly quarter scale, but that there is a red line drawn from the photo to a letter J in a circle. This matches the letter J in a circle that is in a list on the same panel next to the photo, where the J is next to a paragraph that reads,

"500 W P4 SEE-THROUGH ALUMINUM POWER SUPPLY WITH FAN SPEED ADJUSTER WITH DUAL UV SENSITIVE LED FANS WITH UV SENSITIVE WIRE SLEEVE"

sO, DO

*ahem*

So, do you think I have a case?

The Mad Monk
28-06-2004, 19:26:43
Changing memory from Crucial to Corsair:

http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=20-145-026&depa=0

Even with 6% NJ sales tax, can't beat that price.

No longer Trippin
29-06-2004, 02:50:19
Who did you order through for the case without the PSU?

The Mad Monk
29-06-2004, 04:19:54
Xoxide.com

The Mad Monk
29-06-2004, 09:02:43
Ordered the HDDs this afternoon (Newegg, same as I'd mentioned before, and turned up in a one day sale, fantastic), along with a DVD thingy (Trip: HAH!), and the kvm device. Total damage: around $240.

Power Supply, Antec TrueBlue 480W, $89:

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=17-103-914&depa=0

I'll order that if Xoxide dosen't come through.

Using a forum thread to hold links like this is very convenient, also helps me get a handle on what I've done and what I've left to do. Excellent.

Had an extra $400 in my paycheck from some overtime I'd forgotten, so I have a little more headspce than I'd reckoned.

Now, on to video cards, and...am I leaving anything important out? Sound card? Speakers? Hmm...what's important...

The Mad Monk
29-06-2004, 12:48:49
Had an extra $400 in my paycheck from some overtime I'd forgotten, so I have a little more headspce than I'd reckoned.


...and just got an unexpected insurance bill for $355.50.

Ain't that always the way?

Spartak
29-06-2004, 13:50:53
snatched away in 3hrs :lol:

MDA
29-06-2004, 15:54:05
Damn. You could buy a 12 pack and a couple of pizzas with the rest.

The Mad Monk
29-06-2004, 17:55:39
DO NOT TEMPT ME.

I'm on peanut butter and pepperjack cheese sandwiches for the next couple months just to "safely" pay for what I AM getting. :(

MDA
29-06-2004, 18:17:45
zmama should send you cookies. :cute:

zmama
29-06-2004, 18:21:09
Peanut butter pepperjack cookies?

The Mad Monk
29-06-2004, 18:34:50
Mmmm...peanut butter pepperjack...I might have to try that.

The Mad Monk
29-06-2004, 18:39:20
MDA, are you starting your build yet?

...

...or are you waiting for me to make all the newbie mistakes first? :p

No longer Trippin
30-06-2004, 02:40:47
First build, this could be very amusing. Well for us at least.

The Mad Monk
30-06-2004, 05:43:42
Hardy harr harr.

Now, what can you tell me about Xoxide?

Deacon
30-06-2004, 07:49:54
I just looked at the Xoxide site. If you were charged the extra $73 for the UV Reflective Aspire PSU, then you have a case.

Sound cards? Creative, Turtle Beach, and M-Audio make good expensive sound cards. Cheap cards are made by various companies using C-Media chips. Typical onboard AC97 chips like those from C-Media, Analog Devices, VIA and Realtek are as cheap as it gets.

Speakers are okay, but connecting to a stereo is better. One of my new cravings is a front panel connector for headphones. Most motherboards and some sound cards have front panel connectivity.

Video? Nvidia dominated the scene for a while, but ATI gradually improved their hardware and drivers until they pulled even. I like ATI better now because I don't really need mermaids and faeries. :)

Tips? Take your time. Rushing can lead to bent pins, cut hands, damaged hardware, backtracking, etc. Use tools. Use good lighting and have a flashlight for obscure situations. Don't shuffle your feet or take off your fur coat before handling electronics. If you must take off your fur coat, keep one of your hands on something grounded while you take off the other sleeve. :)

The Mad Monk
30-06-2004, 08:15:37
My fur coat is integral.

The Mad Monk
30-06-2004, 10:09:11
I also want a TV card, and this Radeon 9600 XT incorporates one:

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=14-102-352&depa=0

good reviews, but a tad over $200.

MDA
30-06-2004, 16:25:06
Originally posted by The Mad Monk
MDA, are you starting your build yet?

...

...or are you waiting for me to make all the newbie mistakes first? :p

I'm going to wait a few months (hopefully) for an Athlon/PCI express board to become available. Of course, now Trip has been by to say its all hype (true, at present) and will be bugged, but I wanted maximum upgradeability. Its been tough to decide.

I did get a 21 inch Samsung LCD with my first paycheck (self-awarded graduation gift). :) Haven't noticed any ghosting in Mechwarrior mercenaries, X2, or Jedi Academy yet, so I guess its OK. Maybe my eyes are the limiting factor.

The Mad Monk
01-07-2004, 09:26:37
CPU cooler?

http://secure.newegg.com/app/CustratingReview.asp?DEPA=0&item=35-106-038

Sir Penguin
01-07-2004, 10:10:57
MDA, this article at Ars Technica might make you feel better about PCI Express (PCIe, as the author calls it):

http://arstechnica.com/paedia/p/pci-express/pcie-1.html

SP

MDA
01-07-2004, 11:38:58
Originally posted by The Mad Monk
CPU cooler?

http://secure.newegg.com/app/CustratingReview.asp?DEPA=0&item=35-106-038
:lol: This guy must have been scared!

"I ran my 64 3000 for over five minutes with the connector unplugged. I decided to increase the rpms on the fan to see if turning two fans off made a difference. When I turned the rheostat knob, no sound. I frantically opened the case back up to find my Venus 12 fan not turning. I shut my rig down and plugged the molex connector back in, turned her back on and it was buisness as usual. It takes seconds to fry a cpu and the massive heatsink on the venus twelve was able to keep the cpu under 147 degrees F to keep my alarm from going off without the fan running. Now I am impressed!!!"

The Mad Monk
01-07-2004, 21:27:02
MAIL CALL!!!

Motherboard, CPU, OS, HDDs, DVD, KVM, free Far Cry game and nifty Newegg case badge are all in.

I briefly admired the motherboard and CPU through their respective clear protective packaging, pulled the documentation, and put them safely away before I could do something stupid.

I gave the rest a perfunctory once-over, then put them away as well, and set to reading the documentation.

Don't need a sound card, the motherboard has 6 channel sound out of the box. :)

Now, on to ordering the power supply and memory, and digging a floppy drive out of somewhere.

I still have to clean out a workspace to put this thing together.

The Mad Monk
01-07-2004, 21:28:53
Hmmm...the OEM heatsink looks fine, should I spring for the Venus anyway? Hmmm.

The Mad Monk
01-07-2004, 21:38:28
Documentation shows that using any other heatsink than the OEM one will void the warranty.

Is this just a matter of not being stupid enough to mention a third-party heatsink, or do they have ways of finding out?

The Mad Monk
01-07-2004, 21:39:44
I almost had to go to the local FedEx station.

It's located at 100 Redneck Avenue Moonachie, NJ.

No lie.

zmama
01-07-2004, 21:52:33
Stay with the stock heat sink until you decide to overclock. And everything voids the warranty...everything...but you just don't mention the third-party heatsink and keep the OEM one around just in case.

The Mad Monk
01-07-2004, 21:57:08
Okay, thanks. :)

No longer Trippin
02-07-2004, 01:15:07
Onboard sound is okay, but if your listening to music, or just like your sound not to sound like garbage (admittedly it is better now than before, but still has a ways to go), but a decent card will blow the onboard sound solution away). Just stick with the stock cooler. That isn't something I'd want to overclock as my first toy. Start with something old and cheap that you can afford to fry. :)

The Mad Monk
02-07-2004, 04:06:14
Keep sound card on wish list, skip aftermarket cooler. Check. :)

Sir Penguin
02-07-2004, 04:35:15
Originally posted by zmama
Stay with the stock heat sink until you decide to overclock. And everything voids the warranty...everything...but you just don't mention the third-party heatsink and keep the OEM one around just in case.
And if you have to send it back, be sure to put the OEM heatsink on and run it for a few days so that the thermal pad melts.

Only audiophiles need a sound card these days. The onboard sound will almost certainly be fine.

SP

The Mad Monk
02-07-2004, 05:25:07
That's kinda what I figured. If/when I get into doing my own music, I'll spend the money on an appropriate card. Meanwhile, I have my stereo for serious listening. :)

Motherboard is impressive. Just found that, in addition to the dual SATA ports, there is a third Ultra ATA port. That's a total of ten drives before any expansion cards, not including floppies. :)

The Mad Monk
02-07-2004, 05:26:48
While I'm waiting on the rest, I'll go ahead and plug the DVD and HDDs into my operational computer and check them out.

The Mad Monk
02-07-2004, 07:23:45
Vidcard and memory ordered.

Part of me wants to fight Xoxide over the power supply out of a sense of outrage and injustice, while the rest of me wants to just shrug and get the Trueblue from Newegg, because it's probably just a big misunderstanding on my part, it's too much of a hassle, and the power supply has been known to fry systems anyway and it would be all too likely to happen to me if I did win and get the "free" PS.

I'll probably let this simmer for another day or so, and get the Trueblue.

Or not.

Dammit.

The Mad Monk
02-07-2004, 07:25:42
I tend to "just shrug" a lot.

MDA
02-07-2004, 17:40:00
Hard Drives: Is SATA best for future upgrades? Prices seem the same as for IDE Ultra

I'm looking at these:
Samsung SP1604N
Capacity: 160GB
Average Seek Time: 8.9 ms
Buffer: 2MB
Rotational Speed: 7200 RPM
Interface: IDE ULTRA ATA133

Samsung SP1614C
Capacity: 160GB
Average Seek Time: 8.9 ms
Buffer: 8MB
Rotational Speed: 7200 RPM
Interface: Serial ATA

Seagate 120GB 7200RPM IDE

Average Seek Time: 8.5 ms
Buffer: 8MB
Rotational Speed: 7200 RPM
Interface: IDE ULTRA ATA100

Seagate 120GB 7200RPM SATA
Capacity: 120GB
Average Seek Time: 8.5 ms
Buffer: 8MB
Rotational Speed: 7200 RPM
Interface: Serial ATA

The prices all fall in the 90-105 dollar range on NewEgg, so price isn't an issue in choosing between them. The Seagates are a little smaller, but a little quieter (supposedly), but ATA100 instead of 133 m/s.

I'm leaning heavily toward the Samsung. I just don't know much about choosing SATA vs. old school.

The Mad Monk
02-07-2004, 18:27:55
The WD drives I have now are (as per the reviews on Newegg) amazingly quiet -- although they do run hotter than any other drive I've owned.

The Mad Monk
02-07-2004, 18:30:09
I'm going to purchase SATA drives so I can take advantage of the RAID controllers, but I think I'm going to wait until 160s get to where 80s are now. :)

No longer Trippin
02-07-2004, 19:42:13
RAID 0 and 1 are garbage even with SATA as there are many things crippling it from achieving any respectable performance. In some benches you'll get near double the results, but in real world performance, it isn't nearly the same. 10% is generally considered good, and for double the cost. Just buy one 36 gig Raptor for your OS and main files (or 74 if you have a lot of programs) and keep everything else on a serperate drive.

I'd prefer to ghost one drive than to run two in raid 1 and I won't run RAID 0 out of the idea that unless it is SCSI, it is made cheaper than shit generally and that means I double my risk of losing all my data. Sure I can backup, but I can't restore until I get a new drive or just use one. But then what do you backup 160 gigs to? Another drive generally. That's just why I'd go for one 36 or 74 gig raptor if you want speed, and for just file storage and nonintensive applications that don't take long to load (word, powerpoint, etc.). Stick everything else like any games that you have now with long load times on the Raptor as well as any new games as they'll benefit from the extra speed as well. RAID 0 just won't give you that speed.

I run RAID 10 off of a SCSI controller and I have an IDE I use for backup. I've seen IDE and SATA (non-raptor) setups ran in RAID 0 and IDE in 0+1, it isn't anything worth paying for especially considering when the 36 gig along with a 160 seagate is probably around the same cost, a little more for the 74 gig (which is even faster).

Oh, you'll have to wait awhile for that price drop, drives seem to have leveled off awhile back and look to stay that way.

Darkstar
02-07-2004, 20:32:05
I use an external 60 Gig HD for my primary large backup source. I've got a miniature PCI Card 5 Gig HD that I drop copies of all my "critical" data onto on a per change or weekly basis. I do the 60 Gigger backup on a monthly basis.

This system has really allowed me to quickly rebuild or move data as needed.

Of course, my pic collection is rather small, what with it being less then 10 Gig and most of that is non-porn, so your backup needs my be bigger. But you can buy an external 250 Gig for cheap these days. And most of the time, you won't have actually changed much, so it isn't a big deal moving your data.

Even with backups, you want more then one backup. So burning stuff to CD/DV-/+R is advisable. Like you Quicken and TurboTax files. ;)

The Mad Monk
02-07-2004, 20:34:05
I've heard that's the case for PCI-based RAID cards, due to the nature of the bus, but I thought the on-board RAID controllers (Promise 20378 and VIA VT8237) would do better -- that's not the case?

The Mad Monk
03-07-2004, 11:00:16
Okay, I went for the Trueblue for $79, a $28 speaker set that got high marks (for the price, of course), and a free shirt.

Shipping was $12, which is also the total shipping for everything else from Newegg -- that is to say, the rest was free.

The Mad Monk
03-07-2004, 11:02:34
Should I working on the CPU and motherboard now (so they are safely ensconced within the case), or should I wait for everything to come in first?

The Mad Monk
03-07-2004, 11:04:00
Originally posted by Darkstar
I've got a miniature PCI Card 5 Gig HD that I drop copies of all my "critical" data onto on a per change or weekly basis.

Hardcards are back?

Darkstar
03-07-2004, 19:51:26
Er... here, I'll find the precise description. It's a minature Harddrive.

Goggle's top link that matches what I'm talking about:
http://accessories.gateway.com/AccessoryStore/PC+Accessories_316441/Drives+_A1_+Storage_316507/Hard+Drives_316513/Notebook+Hard+Drives_316531/1881018_ProdDetail

I have acronymitis... so I never remember what that PCI Non-flash card thingies are really called. Getting brain rot from all the CRT radiation. ;)

No longer Trippin
04-07-2004, 20:00:38
All onboard controllers, to my recollection, except Intel's run from the PCI bus off the northbridge, Intel's runs on the nb, just not on the bus. Won't matter for anything but workstation work anyhow, but most of that is SCSI if it is needed as SATA isn't reliable enough (IDE quality with a different interface) or fast enough. Once SATA 2 (300 mb/s IIRC) comes out some low end workstation drives should hit the market, by the third iteration 450 / 600 mb/s you'll have consumer SATA (instead of PATA) drives and SCSI SATA drives

MDA: IDE and SATA will give you virtually identical performance with those drives - it's really just a matter of preference now. I wouldn't go to SATA unless I was using a WD Raptor drive or just needed a new drive as the cables are easier to deal with and if you wind up keeping the drive forever and a day, it'll last a bit longer as IDE will eventually drop off motherboards, it is just when. Performance increases aren't there except for that one drive line by WD, and you pay for that speed.

The Mad Monk
04-07-2004, 21:29:27
Looking at the manual, the southbridge has two of the SATA connectors, along with the standard UATA connectors -- dunno if that's better or worse, it does sound different. It dosen't say where the Promise chip fits in.

Sir Penguin
04-07-2004, 22:09:38
The northbridge connects the CPU, RAM, AGP, and southbridge. The southbridge has everything else on it (IDE, PCI, SATA, etc.).

SP

The Mad Monk
05-07-2004, 02:44:46
I suspected it might be something like that.

Can a RAID controller be used as a standard controller?

No longer Trippin
05-07-2004, 09:45:46
You can still use SATA on those boards without using RAID, they just support RAID as well.

Decent and very recent article I read that happens to be basic (with a link to a more technical site provided as well) on RAID can be found here: http://www.overclockers.com/articles1060/

That pretty much sums up why I don't like it, very oversimplified (I'm running a RAID array, like I said, it's simplified, but it applies to most consumers who aren't going to get SCSI drives. They don't need them, nor would most want to pay the price. I was able to write a portion of mine off on taxes and work covered some at the time. Still costed me about 300 (minus the controller card which I had to buy), but I saved twice that easily I'd say still.

Sir Penguin
05-07-2004, 10:27:57
SATA RAID is pretty cheap. It comes standard on a lot of high-end motherboards, and SATA drives don't cost any more than PATA drives do. The only cost for SATA RAID is buying 2 drives instead of 1.

SP

The Mad Monk
05-07-2004, 10:58:30
Okay, thanks guys. :)

I looked at the Raptor drives -- niiiiice, but too expensive for me, especially right now.

The Mad Monk
05-07-2004, 11:01:02
Interesting difference in the documentation.

AMD discourages any thought of overclocking.

In comparison, ASUS is practically screaming "Yes! YES! Overclock me! Overclock me NOW!!!"

Sir Penguin
05-07-2004, 20:02:01
You'd think that AMD would want you to overclock, because it voids the warranty.

SP

Asher
05-07-2004, 20:30:03
I just want to say how awesome the CNPS-7000A is again.

I have Q-Fan enabled, and 99% of the time, the fan isn't even turned on for the CPU. When completely not in use, it idles at 40C. When under regular internet use, it idles at like 45C. Under games, it turns on the fan and maintains 50C.

Asher
05-07-2004, 20:30:52
Originally posted by Sir Penguin
The northbridge connects the CPU, RAM, AGP, and southbridge. The southbridge has everything else on it (IDE, PCI, SATA, etc.).

SP
Slightly different in the Athlon 64s, as the memory controllers are on the CPU.

No longer Trippin
05-07-2004, 21:49:17
AMD is much more overclocker friendly than Intel, trust me. Intel is goign to be locking all 775 prescotts FSB to within 10% of stock, any higher and the system defaults. Asus, Gagabyte, and a couple others have found a workaround, but they haven't voiced that they are going to use it. Intel is pretty adamant on this issue of locking the FSB down due to the problems with the prescott having major heat issues. So it remains to be seen if Intel's will even be overclockable.

Sir Penguin
06-07-2004, 03:12:53
Originally posted by Asher
Slightly different in the Athlon 64s, as the memory controllers are on the CPU.
Ah, yes. Also slightly different with PCIe, where the northbridge and southbridge are physically separate, but combine to form the PCIe switch.

SP

MDA
06-07-2004, 11:43:06
Originally posted by No longer Trippin
Intel is pretty adamant on this issue of locking the FSB down due to the problems with the prescott having major heat issues. So it remains to be seen if Intel's will even be overclockable.

I've heard its not the heat issues so much as them not wanting the embarrassment of an overclocked Intel issued today being better than their next planned release.

I'm basing that on one "something" I read, on the internet, so make what you will of it.

The Mad Monk
06-07-2004, 21:07:30
Memory, All-In-Wonder 9600XT card, and free silver pen are all in.

The AIW looks exceedingly complex, and the instruction manual says it's very important that I install the drivers before replacing the current video card with the AIW when in a non-intel chipset motherboard, because it may be incompatible. This computer is about as non-intel as you can get, and the instructions do not say what to do if there is no previous video card.

No longer Trippin
07-07-2004, 01:09:37
Mad Monk: Ignore that part, just install the OS first (no shit huh?), then your video drivers, then motherboard drivers, and lastly drivers for anything else. Run defrag and then start installing everything else.

MDA: I'll make it as bullshit seeing as for the past year I've been reading articles (and seeing a few nasty end results) of prescotts on 875 chipsets and they haven't been good and the TDP of every single E chip is horrendous. Some people have had complete meltdowns of an 875 board (die practically gone and the substrate fused to the motherboard, the back of the board is black and shows signs that it went gooey from the heat). Yes those results generally are from overclocked chips, but this still shows the thermal problems with the chip as no other chip does it - and at the TDP the 865/875 boards are rated for along with the lower power draw, that is just asking for disaster. A 3.6 with it's TDP crosses the specs for the old boards IIRC as the 3.4 is right up next to it. The mosfet's on many overclocked boards will register near 70C on the back of the board, some higher. Also on Socket T motherboards are higher power handling mosfets (or more of the same size) due to this fact as well. A 3.6 chews up more juice than 875 specs can reliably meet, thus LGA-775.

Yes there are boards that can take an additional 50 - 75 watts TDP from overclocking, but not all in even the high end boards are going to be able to handle it and even then, the toll on the board (not the chip ironically) isn't the best.

This is basically what I'm talking about - yes it is from the Inquirer, but it cites real world number from other sites that are reputable, such as HardOCP and xbit. http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=16952


Idle/Load/Cool n' Quiet
P4 3.2 GHz Prescott - 165/248
P4 3.2 GHz Northwood - 113/182
Athlon 64 3200+ - 158/168/120


Notice the 66 watt TDP deference between two 3.2GHz Pentiums. The old Northwood is much cooler compared to the new prescott. Now as the speeds go up the heat also goes up, especially if they have to raise the stock vcore to a higher value (and it's already .15 v over the planned stock release IIRC and they haven't been able to bring that down yet), and not at the same rate, TDP actually increase at a much greater rate. I wouldn't be surprised if the 3.6 is around 275+ TDP.


Processor state - Idle/Burn (deg C)
P4 Prescott - 45/61
P4 Northwood - 30/48
P4 Gallatin - 32/51


That 13C heat difference may not seem like much, but it has kept every single OEM from going to the Prescott core except for a very limited basis if any as it's harder to cool quietly and cheaply.

MDA
07-07-2004, 03:19:27
If you were trying to baffle me with bullshit, you succeeded. :confused:

So what you're saying is meltdown IS a big issue. Good enough for me. :) I've already written Intel off.

I liked the article where they stress tested an overclocked P4 in a tiny cube case. 94 C meltcdown. I wanted pictures.

Deacon
07-07-2004, 15:24:56
Ick. I wonder what they're gonna do between now and 2006 when they'll supposedly switch to the Pentium M. That's a long time to be stuck with a processor that's hard to stretch.

The Mad Monk
07-07-2004, 16:51:04
The game makers are just going to have to rein in the code bloat for a while.

The Mad Monk
07-07-2004, 16:51:32
Sheyeah, right.

No longer Trippin
08-07-2004, 01:22:23
MDA: Check Tom's Hardware. The author writes for Tom's so a search of his name should bring up all his articles.

The Mad Monk
08-07-2004, 21:32:24
THE POWER SUPPLY HAS CLEARED MY DOOR.

THE POWER SUPPLY HAS CLEARED MY DOOR.

KICKASS COMPUTER: IN RANGE.

Darkstar
08-07-2004, 22:21:42
*Knock on wood*.

Good luck!

The Mad Monk
09-07-2004, 04:22:58
Thanks!

I need to go to work now, but I've gotten the ball rolling.

I'm taking lots of pics! :bounce:

MDA
09-07-2004, 11:37:49
Originally posted by The Mad Monk
THE POWER SUPPLY HAS CLEARED MY DOOR.

THE POWER SUPPLY HAS CLEARED MY DOOR.

KICKASS COMPUTER: IN RANGE.

THE LUNATIC IS IN MY HEAD.

MDA
09-07-2004, 11:38:22
Pics would be useful and cool.

The Mad Monk
10-07-2004, 00:17:34
Originally posted by MDA
THE LUNATIC IS IN MY HEAD.

Think Star Wars, not Pink Floyd. ;)

The Mad Monk
10-07-2004, 00:29:16
Okay, I'm sitting here suffering from extreme exhaustion, because I should have been in bed eight hours ago, but I wanted to get as much of the hardware side done as possible.

To my side is a case with the motherboard safely ensconced within, the cpu and heatsink, memory, and video card properly mounted (at least as far as you can say without actually powering up). The power supply is also mounted, though the two are not currently connected in any way, shape, or form.

Putting the cpu, etc, in was the easiest part.

I am now contemplating the large bundle of cables hanging off the power supply, and a somewhat smaller but by no means less daunting array of cables snaking in from the front of the chassis. It hurts to just look at them.

I cannot think riht now I must sleep.

There are 86 pics in the camera, i will do something with them tomorrow, I hope.

Good night. :)

No longer Trippin
10-07-2004, 00:35:11
Get some sleeves for the PSU lines if your worried about how they look.

The Mad Monk
10-07-2004, 08:25:01
Sorry, in my dazed state I wasn't being clear. :)

What I meant was that I was looking at all those cables, and all those sockets on the motherboard, and I had no idea of what went where. :)

Now that I've had some sleep, it will all be clear.

Right.

The Mad Monk
10-07-2004, 08:52:35
Okay, I finally figured out the difference between the USB and FireWire.

Gah.

The Mad Monk
10-07-2004, 15:36:42
IT'S ALIVE!

IT'S ALIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIVE!!!

The Mad Monk
10-07-2004, 15:37:52
I'm going back to bed.

Deacon
11-07-2004, 00:41:58
Give us your Q3A timedemo score. :)

From the console (tilde key):

timedemo 1
demo four

The Mad Monk
11-07-2004, 12:07:49
?

The Mad Monk
11-07-2004, 12:39:12
Okay, I've been playing with both machines for a while. They are sharing the monitor, keyboard, mouse, and APC UPS (MOUSE); the one thing they are not sharing is data.

Except via a 256 Mb memory card snagged from my camera.

As you might imagine, it's pretty slow going. What's the cheapest/easiest/quickest way to connect an brand-new Athlon 64 3200+ running XP to a 1999 PIII 450 running Win98SE?

The Mad Monk
11-07-2004, 12:42:02
Harmless (so far) side effect of KVM switch: NumLock is inoperable. It is permanently on when using the PIII, and permanently off when using the A64. :hmm:

The Mad Monk
11-07-2004, 12:44:53
DCA, give some idea of what you want pics and commentary of.

Unless, of course, you want me to upload each and every one of the one hundred eighty pics I've taken on this project to Counterglow...:bounce:

Deacon
11-07-2004, 22:40:41
Quake 3 Arena. If you don't have it, then you shouldn't buy it unless you're into playing old games on new computers. :)

One of Quake's cooler features is the console, where you can issue commands to the game. Timedemo is where you play back a recorded demo at top speed, and then divide the number of frames played by the playback time in seconds. What you're left with is frames per second. Naturally, the FPS numbers for older games will be absurdly high on newer hardware, usually more than the monitor's vertical refresh rate.

I suppose that flat panel monitors don't have a refresh rate.

The Mad Monk
12-07-2004, 02:46:35
I'm playing CivIII Conquests right now. :)

My newest FPS is System Shock 2

The Mad Monk
12-07-2004, 02:47:42
Unless, of course, you count Far Cry.

No longer Trippin
12-07-2004, 02:56:29
Flat panels do have a refresh rate per say, but it is a different measurement because of how they work.

MDA
12-07-2004, 09:56:18
:beer:

So they're *supposed* to be sharing data?

Other than copying into some other kind of media or installing network cards and ethernet, I dunno. That's just because I've never done networks. I just listen and nod wisely when people talk about them.

zmama
12-07-2004, 09:59:15
Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Okay, I've been playing with both machines for a while. They are sharing the monitor, keyboard, mouse, and APC UPS (MOUSE); the one thing they are not sharing is data.

Except via a 256 Mb memory card snagged from my camera.

As you might imagine, it's pretty slow going. What's the cheapest/easiest/quickest way to connect an brand-new Athlon 64 3200+ running XP to a 1999 PIII 450 running Win98SE?

A nine dollar crossover cable from Radio Shack

The Mad Monk
12-07-2004, 12:35:50
Ah...thanks. I suspected it might be something like that.

Will both computers "understand" what's expected of them, or do I have some training to do?

Spartak
12-07-2004, 14:12:51
training.

zmama
12-07-2004, 15:25:32
Xp will probably recognize the connection and pop up a wizard...If not come back here and ask

No longer Trippin
12-07-2004, 21:48:16
Yeah, but will 95 or 98 recognize anything on the old comp? :)

Spartak
13-07-2004, 10:33:48
95 and 98 certainly won't recognise the USB cable (even the special one).

zmama
13-07-2004, 10:46:43
A crossover cable isn't USB...its an ethernet cable.
And 95b might recognize usb...if you're lucky and 98 will unless you're very unlucky

MDA
13-07-2004, 16:43:07
I wouldn't count on 95 either, even patched up to accomodate USB.

zmama
13-07-2004, 17:10:46
I think thats what I just said with ~might~
;)

JM^3
13-07-2004, 18:56:57
Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Two of these:
Western Digital Special Edition 80GB 7200RPM IDE Hard Drive, Model WD800JB, OEM Drive Only at Newegg.com, $137 total
http://www.newegg.com/oldversion/app/viewproductdesc.asp?description=22-144-122&DEPA=0

These are the drives I bought when my computer crashed six months ago -- they run pretty hot, but otherwise they appear to be pretty solid.

I have seen 160 GB (over a month ogo, so shuld be about the same time frame) Western Digital (8 MB, 7200 RPM) drives selling for $80 after rebates

Jon Miller

MDA
13-07-2004, 19:48:59
Originally posted by zmama
I think thats what I just said with ~might~
;)

I was agreeing with you.

zmama
13-07-2004, 20:02:40
Wow...I'm not used to that! :D

The Mad Monk
13-07-2004, 22:52:56
The only USB trouble my PIII has is that it only has two jacks, and its owner has been too cheap to buy a hub.

"Do I want to download my photos, or use my printer tonight?"

The Mad Monk
13-07-2004, 22:54:57
Originally posted by JM^3
I have seen 160 GB (over a month ogo, so shuld be about the same time frame) Western Digital (8 MB, 7200 RPM) drives selling for $80 after rebates

Jon Miller

Thanks Jon, but I hate rebates. :)

No longer Trippin
14-07-2004, 01:56:00
If you want to wait 3 to 6 months, you'll get it for 80 bucks. :)

Nav
14-07-2004, 20:19:32
complaint.

this forum has died because of this damn thread. :(

zmama
14-07-2004, 20:27:11
Piffle...the same happens in Music and you don't complain.

If you don't think there are enough threads, just randomly move some here :D

JM^3
14-07-2004, 20:40:12
Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Thanks Jon, but I hate rebates. :)

I do too

but I would do them fro 80 bucks

JM

The Mad Monk
15-07-2004, 04:26:34
Originally posted by Nav
complaint.

this forum has died because of this damn thread. :(

I will start uploading pics soon.

MDA
15-07-2004, 10:21:21
Originally posted by Nav
complaint.

this forum has died because of this damn thread. :(

Maybe we should invite some people over from Poly to start Mac threads. :D

The Mad Monk
16-07-2004, 09:12:29
I'm disgutipated.

I remember that my PIII came with an ethernet card installed, so I went searching for the "box o' junk" it came with. I found the box, and sure enough, there was a brand-new crossover cable, still in pristine condition after so many years.

I grab it, hook it into the back of the Athlon, pull my PIII out of its bay, turn it around,

There's no hookup.

It's then that I remember that I removed it last year to give its space to one of those slot fan thingies that I bought on a whim; after all, it wasn't doing anything, I had no use for it during the previous four years.

So, I spend the next four hours searching for a five-year-old ethernet card that I know is someplace, because I never throw stuff like this out.

So now I'm in the market for a cheap LAN card. To replace a five-year-old ethernet card that I know is someplace, because I never throw stuff like this out.

:bash:

Sir Penguin
16-07-2004, 09:42:19
Oh, just go to the dump and get a new one.

SP

zmama
16-07-2004, 10:54:47
Just go to one of the office stores Max- Depot-Staples...you should be able to get one for under ten bucks.

Scabrous Birdseed
16-07-2004, 11:15:52
Yup. Ethernet cards are practically free these days.

The Mad Monk
16-07-2004, 11:54:05
I was looking at the gigabit cards at newegg -- they're not ten dollars. :(

zmama
16-07-2004, 12:12:16
You don't need one of those

The Mad Monk
16-07-2004, 14:48:34
I figured that I should match the one on Big Blue's motherboard.

zmama
16-07-2004, 18:22:52
Nah, it'll adjust the speed. A 10/100 card will be plenty for your old 'puter

No longer Trippin
16-07-2004, 20:14:25
You don't have an ethernet connection on the motherboard? That is odd seeing you did get an A64 platform especially.

zmama
16-07-2004, 20:55:44
He needs a card for his old computer

The Mad Monk
17-07-2004, 03:47:53
Yep. :)

No longer Trippin
17-07-2004, 06:48:38
Ah, that's true (missing the blatantly obvious). Haven't seen a USB to serial adaptor before either - then again, I've never looked. :)

The Mad Monk
17-07-2004, 07:22:41
Actually, I'm using one of those now (or something like it).

The KVM switch requires use of the PS/2 hookups, so I had to fish out the USB-to-PS/2 adaptor that came with my USB mouse. :)

The Mad Monk
20-09-2004, 23:32:04
I never did get to those pics -- anyone still interested?

MDA
23-09-2004, 16:48:50
Looks like I'll be waiting a while for AMD to get their thumb out and make some PCI-Express stuff. Pentium is just too damned expensive ...and we're saving for a house.

The Mad Monk
23-09-2004, 20:47:04
Pehaps you should just skip the PCI-x?

MDA
24-09-2004, 15:00:49
I'd be losing some upgradeablility. Our current computer can hang on a bit longer, its just that I WANT to build a new one.

zmama
24-09-2004, 15:30:11
And you need to save for a nice BIG house. The Eurotwats were talking about invading! :D

MDA
27-09-2004, 12:01:08
A nice two bedroom town house is about half a million dollars.
We're thinking of taking the MARC train to work so we can live far enough out to have a decent-sized house.

We just had one of my wife's eurotwat friends over, and she REALLY likes DC. She plans to invade again as soon as possible.

My wife is hinting I should suck it up and buy a Pentium.

zmama
27-09-2004, 14:50:33
Oh NO!

The horror!!!!


:D

JM^3
27-09-2004, 15:13:48
I like DC too, it is too expensive though

we really could have a DC area CG meet btw (zmama, MDA, myself, KH, and Mad Monk, and maybe people from NY)

JM

MDA
27-09-2004, 20:11:59
:) The sticker price is the only real horror. I have nothing against Pentiums other than the price - they've always worked fine in my Gateways.

zmama
27-09-2004, 20:15:14
I agree...I've had AMD for two computers now. Better value

No longer Trippin
28-09-2004, 08:37:24
Well AMD now is pretty much running a price parity with Intel moreso than in the past. They still are cheaper, but not nearly by much sadly - MDA, that should be by October going by AMD.

Unless your running a RAID array, there is no real need to get PCI-Express unless you really plan on upgrading your system peice by piece instead of doing an outright replacement. Vid cards will come in AGP for another 2 years at least and the bus is in no danger of being saturated from the looks of things.