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paiktis22
17-05-2004, 23:30:54
Em... Menelaus actually leaves Troy WITH Helen...
Hector was a bit of a coward actually he run away from Achilles 3 times round the walls of Troy... But that isn't epic enough I suppose.

Other than that nice 2+ hour pop corn movie and I did like Pitt as Achilles. So what if he was like a dumb wood? He captured the immortality-undestructability-anger pretty well, even if at times he seemed like the highschool bully.
Ok 8 euros not really wasted.
"Hector" was the best actor, Odysseus was pretty good delivered too.

BigGameHunter
18-05-2004, 00:54:07
Any tits?

Funkodrom
18-05-2004, 08:52:37
Originally posted by paiktis22
Em... Menelaus actually leaves Troy WITH Helen...

:lol:

paiktis22
18-05-2004, 12:49:51
Originally posted by BigGameHunter
Any tits?

Conceiled behind ample robes unfortunately.

Chris
18-05-2004, 17:48:00
I understand they cut the gods out completely, so its not much like the Illiad.

BigGameHunter
18-05-2004, 23:58:53
Gods just want too much for film roles anymore.

Funkodrom
19-05-2004, 08:26:25
They cut the gods out?!

I shouldn't be surprised.

paiktis22
19-05-2004, 11:47:35
Yes they cut the Gods out so as Chris says it's not the Illiad. The Gods were absolutely important in the Illiad. For example in Troy Hector kills Menelaus whereas according to the Illiad Menelaus defeats Paris and then Aphrodite steps in and transports Paris inside Troy next to Helen when Menelaus is about to kill him.
Then it's not the Trojans who break the vows but Athena forces one of them to shoot the arrow against Menelaus thus breaking the vows etc etc

In Troy Helen forgives Paris for his cowardness but actually in the Illiad Aphrodite steps in and conveicnes Helen not to go away from him in disgust etc. Also there were no Greeks at the time (that would come later) there were Acheans. And Agamemnon is not THAT vicious (nore were the Achaens before the Gods actually tricked them into being vicious) and the Trojans were depcited much more nefarious that in Troy (where they are the "good guys").
Troy is very loosely based in Illiad.

Debaser
19-05-2004, 11:51:22
Originally posted by paiktis22
Troy is very loosely based in Illiad.

To be fair, they never pretended otherwise.

paiktis22
19-05-2004, 11:55:06
Yes I think so too.

Rodgers
19-05-2004, 12:11:03
I liked the Gods in Clash of the Titans - shame they didnt do something similar here :(

shagnasty
20-05-2004, 05:42:03
Does anyone know if the Illiad is available on cassette or cd or summit. I can't be arsed to read the book.

Venom
20-05-2004, 19:15:37
I wouldn't be suprised if it's available now.

MOBIUS
21-05-2004, 20:16:52
Kinda ironic that it will have taken almost 3000 years for Homer to make it into the bestsellers list...

paiktis22
21-05-2004, 20:34:45
I went and bought a copy just to get the story right. The thing is that there're dozens of translation, I tried cretan greek (by kazantzakis) and I might as well have tried to read the original, then I stumbled upon a translation made by an athenian professor and I could finally start to understand all the verses (not as powerful as kazanztakis though but what use is it when half the words are unknown or so changed from mainstream greek you have to guess).

paiktis22
21-05-2004, 21:26:58
Meaning I don't know how's translated in english but if you pick a translation that tries to approach the original poetry it will be taxing to read it. A lot. OTOH if you pick an easy translation you'll miss on some amazing lyrical sceneries (like how do you say constellationsgatherer (=Zeus) in say 4 different ways each nuanced differently... etc).

But any translation, easy or as faithful as possible, according to what you're up to, is rewarding because it brings to life that world. And it does elevate your soul from the mundane everydays of reality (if i may be so corny). I'm planning on finishing this one first, then give another try to the kazanztakis one (actually i'm becoming a bit obsessed with collecting every translation i can find since there are so many words I've never heard there and very powerful but thats another matter. Needless to say I dont remember anything from school.

Greg W
22-05-2004, 07:53:13
***Warning, minor spoliers ahead***



They kinda gloss over the whole Achilles being unable to be wounded by any weapon, except his heel, cos when he was dipped in some fountain that makes you invulnerable when he was young, they held him by his heel. Thus it was not invulnerable, and ths was he killed. They did pay some mention to it tho when Paris shoots him in the heel, but they definately glossed over it.

They mention the Gods, and Achilles even mentions that he has met the gods. No sight of them tho.

Man, been so long since I read that stuff, that I have forgotten a hell of a lot of it - as you can no doubt see by my expert recounting of the legend of Achilles. Forgot that Hector killed Ajax too.

Anyone know if there's a good book (not translated verse, tried reading a real translation in verse, and I couldn't stand it :shudder: ) about the Illiad?

maroule
22-05-2004, 11:07:58
Dan Simmons just wrote Ilium, a sci-fi 'reconstruction' of Troy, quite fun

Greg W
22-05-2004, 12:51:57
Read one of his books once. Can't remember the name for the life of me, but I don't remember being impressed at the time. Mostly cos if I were, I would have bought more of his books. He's mostly a horror author ain't he?

maroule
22-05-2004, 17:39:19
some, and mostly thrillers and sci fi
check Hyperion, it's considered one of the best sci fi novel of the last decade

jsorense
22-05-2004, 18:09:30
Originally posted by maroule
some, and mostly thrillers and sci fi
check Hyperion, it's considered one of the best sci fi novel of the last decade Which I didn't like much at all. I haven't even been tempted to look at the sequels. Just my pov.

maroule
22-05-2004, 18:34:50
no worries, opinions are like arse holes, everybody has one, and mine is no better than yours

King_Ghidra@home
22-05-2004, 18:52:27
now what sort of fucking reasonable attitude is that?

call him a prick and let's go

maroule
22-05-2004, 20:32:46
I was lying, mine is cleaner than his of course

jsorense
22-05-2004, 23:09:37
:cry: Whaaa, whaa, Mommy Mommy make the bad maroule and King_Ghidra play nice.:cry:

[jsorense wondering who did such an outstanding cleaning job on maroule's umm, dirty thingy, but is much too polite and mature to mention it in public]

maroule
23-05-2004, 10:01:00
I didn't say clean, I said cleaner

Greg W
23-05-2004, 12:38:35
Ah, yeah, Hyperion was it. For whatever reason I don't remember finding it that good.

Funkodrom
24-05-2004, 11:43:52
Originally posted by paiktis22
Meaning I don't know how's translated in english but if you pick a translation that tries to approach the original poetry it will be taxing to read it. A lot.

Yes, it's really good but not easy to read. Certainly not a "read on the train when half asleep" type book.

fp@korea
24-05-2004, 11:55:37
Still not seen this movie. Might go and watch Kill Bill vol2 instead. Is that any good?

shagnasty
24-05-2004, 12:10:47
I managed to steal a copy of Homers 'Odyssey' from the local library. It was on cassette, I don't think I could have managed the book. 13 bastid hours long it is, and if I stopped listening to it for any length of time, I lost track of the story. Finally managed to listen to it at work in the shed though, still took me 2 days to get through it. It is read by Gandalf. He seems to have the right voice for that sort of thing. I found it very good. It was quite emotional towards the end and I did have a bit of a sniffle almost all the way through it. I've still got it. It was supposed to go back December 2002.;)

Scabrous Birdseed
24-05-2004, 13:56:11
Originally posted by fp@korea
Still not seen this movie. Might go and watch Kill Bill vol2 instead. Is that any good?

Yes.

But shouldn't you be watxching Korean stuff instead? My film-studies friend claims its the most exciting cinema in the world at the moment.

King_Ghidra
24-05-2004, 15:48:56
that sounds like the kind of pseudo-cool generalisation that a film studies student might make

i seem to recall iranian cinema getting the same kind of bigging up not long ago

Scabrous Birdseed
24-05-2004, 16:01:24
Yes but that was all moody landscapes and dull plots about villages. Korean cinema is more gangster epics and stuff.

Scabrous Birdseed
24-05-2004, 16:01:51
Mind you I've never actually seen a Korean film.

Scabrous Birdseed
24-05-2004, 16:02:15
Or an Iranian one.

fp@korea
25-05-2004, 01:07:42
Korean cinema is at a bit of a peak now. There have been two hugely popular epic war movies released here recently, but I haven't had a chance to see them yet. Not many places outside Seoul show Korean movies with English subtitles.

fp@korea
27-05-2004, 01:11:09
Saw Troy. It was pretty good.

Too many naked men, though.

Chris
27-05-2004, 01:55:07
Originally posted by shagnasty
I managed to steal a copy of Homers 'Odyssey' from the local library. Even in English the Odyssey is hard to follow, the structure is horrible. The protagonist tells his story within a story within a story at start, and its tough to follow. In Greek it isn't much better, but there are some things that are lost in translation.

Reworked, it is a great story.:coolgrin:

fp@korea
27-05-2004, 03:02:10
I agree completely Chris. I'm reading it now and the structure is totally fucked. It's a far better tale when told in a different way.

By the way, these are just two of the stupid questions some of my friends asked me when we saw Troy.

"So ... which one of those guys is Troy, then?"

and

"Are Achilles and Hercules the same person?"

One of my friends was utterly convinced that Hercules was in the movie, even after we'd actually watched it. :lol:

Help TCO
29-05-2004, 03:57:44
Originally posted by maroule
some, and mostly thrillers and sci fi
check Hyperion, it's considered one of the best sci fi novel of the last decade

Wasn't that in the genre of books that end with a "to be continued". Said genre intersecting exactly with the genre of books which are hurled against the wall, with promise made never to by responsible author?

Help TCO
29-05-2004, 03:59:03
Oh...and Hyperion was totally overrated.

JM^3
29-05-2004, 05:36:10
Originally posted by BigGameHunter
Any tits?

some ass...

JM

JM^3
29-05-2004, 05:36:46
I liked about the first half about it

than it went off into Hollywood land

Jon Miller

JM^3
29-05-2004, 05:39:19
Originally posted by Greg W
***Warning, minor spoliers ahead***



They kinda gloss over the whole Achilles being unable to be wounded by any weapon, except his heel, cos when he was dipped in some fountain that makes you invulnerable when he was young, they held him by his heel. Thus it was not invulnerable, and ths was he killed. They did pay some mention to it tho when Paris shoots him in the heel, but they definately glossed over it.

They mention the Gods, and Achilles even mentions that he has met the gods. No sight of them tho.

Man, been so long since I read that stuff, that I have forgotten a hell of a lot of it - as you can no doubt see by my expert recounting of the legend of Achilles. Forgot that Hector killed Ajax too.

Anyone know if there's a good book (not translated verse, tried reading a real translation in verse, and I couldn't stand it :shudder: ) about the Illiad?

Archilles meets his mom near the beggining

and I think it could be done with the gods just refereced, not actually shown (but deffinitely making their presence known)

how it was done was a mockery

Jon Miller

The Shaker
29-05-2004, 15:44:19
Originally posted by Greg W
***Warning, minor spoliers ahead***



Man, been so long since I read that stuff, that I have forgotten a hell of a lot of it - as you can no doubt see by my expert recounting of the legend of Achilles. Forgot that Hector killed Ajax too.


Ajax killed himself.

zmama
29-05-2004, 19:22:45
Originally posted by JM^3
Archilles meets his mom near the beggining

and I think it could be done with the gods just refereced, not actually shown (but deffinitely making their presence known)

how it was done was a mockery

Jon Miller

How could anyone add to this?

:gasmaske:

Gary
23-08-2005, 08:23:46
Originally posted by The Shaker
Ajax killed himself. Must have gone clean round the bend.

PS in case no one said, Achilles was dipped in the river Styx, not a fountain. * shrug *

Gary
23-08-2005, 08:28:44
Although the above rendition of the Achillesí story is in current vogue, Michael Macrone, in his Itís Greek to Me, tells us that Achilles didnít always have a vulnerable heel. Oh yes, he had a weak spot, but according to the original story about Achilles, Homer, in the Iliad, said it was his pride. Later versions indicate his weakness was his love for the Trojan princess Polyxena. In his Metamorphoses, Ovid suggested that Achilles had a vulnerable spot on his body; but the Roman poet, Statius (c. A.D. 45-96), was the first to imply in a poem that it was his heel. (http://www.wordexplorations.info/Achilles-heel-story.html)