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Darkstar
17-04-2004, 08:06:13
I found the original game at: http://www.xtcabandonware.com/

It's under RPG.

A blast from the past. Get it while you can, my hardies. I don't know if Firaxis (or Microprose's current owners) will let them continue distributing it in the future. Currently, it's abandonware, but that could change.

Greg W
17-04-2004, 10:37:06
Ah, abandoneware, the term that thieves use to make them feel better about their theft. :p

The Shaker
17-04-2004, 12:22:16
woohoo Barbie supermodel is on there !!!

MDA
17-04-2004, 21:56:33
So if I drop off a copy of Pirates I found at the local police station and no one comes to claim it in two weeks, do I get to keep it?

zmama
17-04-2004, 22:04:08
Sounds reasonable to me. :D

Besides, the Pirates will suck once again this year.

Venom
18-04-2004, 02:54:34
Originally posted by Darkstar
I found the original game at: http://www.xtcabandonware.com/

It's under RPG.

A blast from the past. Get it while you can, my hardies. I don't know if Firaxis (or Microprose's current owners) will let them continue distributing it in the future. Currently, it's abandonware, but that could change.

me hardies. ME. A pirate would say me.

MDA
18-04-2004, 04:56:30
The best team Pittsburgh could buy. :D

Shining1
19-04-2004, 01:25:06
Actually, I think it's me hearties...

Darkstar
19-04-2004, 05:37:33
:lol:

Hey, almost all the games I grabbed from there, I own. A few I pulled down weren't what I thought they'd be.

It's hard to be legal and buy an authorized copy when their is no one still selling the game, Greg. And it's illegal copying... you know, "counterfieting". Not stealing.

Greg W
19-04-2004, 09:31:37
Hmm, so AFAIK they don't make new FJ holdens any more. So that means that I could just go off and download the plans, and make one myself right? Because, well, nobody makes em anymore, and they'd never ever be found for sale, in, say, car dealerships (or Ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=62053&item=8100269129&rd=1) in terms of Pirates!, right)? I mean, making a real effort to get a legit copy would be, well, work...

Abandonware is bollocks, and would never stand up in a court of law. Stealing, counterfeiting, whatever. Illegal nonetheless. Sorry, but if you want to steal/counterfeit it, don't try and dress it up in terms of "abandoneware" making it somehow legal.

Not that I came here to start an argument about Abandoneware. Was just in an odd mood that day (well, and maybe today as well). Cos I'd never, ever download illegal software. :cute:

:nervous:

MDA
19-04-2004, 20:16:33
I've been fairly well-behaved, but if I can't find it anywhere, I'll do it.

Never did the Ebay thing, that could be fun.

Currently have MoM, Allied General (only because my CD doesn't install correctly, but the download works fine), and now Pirates.

If I ever come across MoM or Pirates on the shelf or in the discount bin, I promise to buy it. :D

Darkstar
20-04-2004, 05:24:36
Greg, it's not the same thing.

A program is IP. And if there is noone to defend an IP, it becomes public domain. Get that high horse out of your ass and go check out IP law. It's not 100% in accord with the physical world.

Is copying Civ1 from an abandonware site illegal? Yes. Why? Because the rights to Civ is still being held and defended. How about MegaTraveller? No. That means MegaTraveller is in the public doman.

I didn't grab Pirates. Pirates is still a legally owned IP. But I could have grabbed Pirates if I wanted, legally. Why? I own a disk of Pirates, and it gives me a license to use on my personal machine. So I'm licensed to have one copy of Pirates installed on one machine. The source isn't specified in my EUL (End User License).

I think you need to study up on IP before you try having an argument on it. It's not as straight forward as real world property items or law. That's part of the problem with getting people to understand whats legal and what isn't in IP.

Greg W
20-04-2004, 07:08:49
Why? Because the rights to Civ is still being held and defended.So you're telling me that just because nobody has jumped up and down to defend the (presumeably) illegal distribution of, oh, I dunno, Darklands (by MPS - pick any game really), that therefore it must be legal to distribute it?

I had typed up a whole lot more, but I decided that I really couldn't be bothered getting into a debate.

Darkstar
20-04-2004, 08:21:59
I'm telling you that if an IP is not defended, and there is no clear owner for it, it is considered Public Domain until such a time as some entity can show that isn't true (which amounts to some entitity willing to fight the issue in court).

Now, if a company does not defend it's IP (Say, the guys that bought up Microprose's IP), then they agree that it is public domain. They can fight that... by taking it to court. The court then looks to see if they have defended their IP, whenever possible. If they have, then it will rule in their favor, and the IP is not Public Domain. If the court finds that they have not, then it is considered implicit in their decision to not fight every use of their IP illegally that they are making their IP public domain.

That's how it works, in a nutshell.

If you came across the IP rights to M.U.L.E. somewhere, you could buy it up and shut down/demand royalties/whatever from all the M.U.L.E. clones out there... as you had not previously had the rights to the IP, and noone was working at the company that owned them. It would take a court to decide if the IP rights languished undefended for too long, however.

Again, the critic point is that it isn't like real world items. Just because they no longer make the E-Z Electric Football Game does not mean that you can just go out and make a game and call it "E-Z Electric Football Game". There are trademark and copyright issues to still deal with (and that's why those things exist, to prevent other people from using a "brand" illegally). But you can make an exact CLONE of the game, and call it something else, so long as no patents are actually involved. The IP value for the game is in the trademarks and registered copyrights, not the game design. (Unless, as I said, there's a patent involved.) And if you find an old game for sale at a garage sale, it is legal for the owner of the individual game to sell it to you. (Something you don't have a right to do with most software. They usually have a "not for resale" notice in their license... meaning it is illegal, by terms of the license, for you to sell your Civ1 copy on eBay. But noone pays any attention to THAT. It is generally legal for you to transfer your Civ1, in its entirety (and includes you not keeping any copy of it), to someone. But not sell it at yard sales, in your "antique software" store, or on eBay.)

Greg W
20-04-2004, 09:47:59
So the real crux of the issue appears to be:
- No clear owner
- IP not defended

The Owner not being an issue of they don't defend their IP anyway.

So, pick any company that has gone bankrupt, and no other company has bought the rights to their game, and every single game they owned the Ip for becomes free to anyone that wants it?

Just trying to make sure that I understand this correctly.

Nav
20-04-2004, 21:55:33
I think the title of this thread is quite ironic.

I lost a whole sunday to this game.... fun retro gaming!

MDA
21-04-2004, 13:25:27
I think it was meant to be :)

I lost half of Saturday - if it weren't for other work I could have played the whole weekend.

Never played the original, I think I was in college then.

I love the manual - its probably 50 percent historical notes.

I hate the notorious/well known pirates that swordfight at high speed. Give me a cowardly one and I can usually win. :p

Darkstar
21-04-2004, 19:23:24
Originally posted by Greg W
So the real crux of the issue appears to be:
- No clear owner
- IP not defended

The Owner not being an issue of they don't defend their IP anyway.

So, pick any company that has gone bankrupt, and no other company has bought the rights to their game, and every single game they owned the IP for becomes free to anyone that wants it?

Just trying to make sure that I understand this correctly.

Yes.

Remember, IP is an Idea. Ideas cannot be owned "forever". You can own the exclusive rights to the "Idea" of how to make a carbon tube, but only for a limited period (that's a patent). You can own the exact idea for Star Wars: A New Hope, but again, only for a limited period (that's a copy right). You can own the idea for Mickey Mouse, but only for a limited time (that's a trademark). You can own the idea for the computer game M.U.L.E, but only for a limited time. IP properties always default to the Public Domain whenever there is noone utilizing/defending them (no one has special authority from the government is trying to make a buck on that particular idea). Otherwise, each different kind of IP has its own particulars about how to keep it exclusive. Some, like patents, just run out. No extenstions. Some, like trademarks, are good for as long as the owning company actively defends it. Some, like music copyrights, require a "cover" done on the work, republishing it, and renewing the copyright. Simply re-releasing Elvis's "Blue Suede Shoes" does not renew the copyright. But having Justin Timberlake release a performance of it, does. This is why songs and movies are periodically "remade". It is the mechanism the owning studios use to extend their copyrights. If they didn't do this, there copyrights on the material would expire, and that results in the work becoming public domain. Such as what happened to the "Its a Wonderful Life" movie that is so overplayed in the States at Christmas. Public domain means free... noone to pay a broadcast royality to.

In a society where you have the freedom of expression, you have to have the default behavior of everything undefended is public domain. Otherwise, you'd have to wait out the experation time on all ideas ever published in some fashion... and with some forms of IP that are effectively "infinite" in length, you'd run out of what you could legally "think", speak, or make. Freedom of expression keeps us all from being "thought pirates". (In US Law, the Freedom to Speach is the foundation that enables Freedom of Thought, because the US Supreme Court believes you have to be able to verbalize to be able to form thoughts (you have to move your lips to have a thought). I kid you not. It's in the public records.)

Now, you Aussies probably have some minor differences in your implementation of various IPs, but you should be very close to the US implementation. That's due to all the standardization of IP laws via the WTO and other self-interest agreements between nations. (the old "I'll recognize yours if you recognize mine" deal.)