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Gary
17-03-2004, 12:11:51
Hi guys. Sorry not been around very often, but work is more stringent these days, and having moved house I can't seem to find the time to get that straight let alone visit the general chat web-sites.

However I seem to have got myself more work to do on top of all that. And aside from signing up at a dedicated site, I thought you guys may be able to help.

OK, first off I am a total newbie at all things video, so try not to use large words ;)


I impulse purchased a set of VCDs on Ebay for a program I used to watch as a kid. Nostalgia and all that. When they arrived they turned out to be home copies rather than anything official :( but hey, that's OK I guess. shouldn't stop me watching the things.

Ah, but... turns out the files are not all perfect. I've concentrated on the first disk of the set only so far, but do intend to try to watch the lot and see how bad things are. i.e. I'm going to overdose on it this week, instead of just sitting back and enjoying them gradually as I'd expected to.

OK, so what does one do to repair (video) files with bad CRCs ? Is there a push button and sit back & wait utility out there somewhere, that can make multiple attempts to read, and when it fails patch it with what the surrounding pixels suggest should be there ? (OK it's audio as well as video so I guess it won't be quite that easy, but ...)


I've already spent quite some time surfing trying to find the answer, and downloaded a few utilities which were not clear what they did and why, or how to operate. In fact I'm can't be sure but something messed up my primary PC and use of one of those utilities is the thing I think most likely to be the cause. But I digress.

A bit of history that may be no help to any reply, but might give clues to the problem.

The VCDs stuttered and temporarily froze when played on my primary PC. Checking on the secondary one I have, the same behaviour occurred.

I tried to copy the files but they refused to copy claiming CRC errors as the reason.

I took the disks to my brother's to se if there would be any change. There wasn't.

Nothing to lose, I tried them on my girlfriend's PC. Interestingly, although they had the same trouble playing, they were happy to copy to the hard disk ?!? But playing from the hard disk, IIRC was totally refused ?!??

I then tried them on a friend's PC. They seemed to play ok ! But since then I think only the first file was ok and the 5th one on the disk still had problems. Played these things so many times on different PCs it's sometimes difficult to recall what occurred when :) Anyway, my friend has a DVD player (i.e. not a PC DVD drive) and we tried it on that. the seller of these disks said he had no trouble playing them on his DVD but had not tried a PC. In fact the problems were very evident on the player.

My friend had a try at copying the files and had some success, although I think I was less enthusiastic than I should have been when he said he'd only lost so many Megs. :( oh not perfect then ? I went around to look at the result and yes, the pixellation and freeze jump is still quite evident at the end of the last file of disk 1. But credit where it's due he managed to get the copy somehow, even if it is still with problems.

About it really, what can one do to try to fix the files ? If anything.

And a supplementary query while I still have someone's attention :) Also included with the B&W videos was a single episode in colour, but the colour is not very stable but smeared. Is there anything one can run that file through to correct the poor definition there ?

Actually an additional supplementary :D The file first picked up when the disk is run is a menu file showing the different episodes one can chose to view. Unfortunately one of the titles shown is misspelt and I'd like to correct it. Yes it would be nice to tart it up a bit too, but the misspelling is what catches the eye. Is that easy to do ?

Sir Penguin
17-03-2004, 20:38:25
I know next to nothing about video editing and correction.

I do know that VCDs usually have ill-gotten media on them. VCD is a format that plays video files from CD. The space limitations on CDs severely cut down on the quality and/or play time of the video media they contain. Most legal distributors prefer to use DVD, because of those limitations. Illegal distributers prefer VCD, because the discs are cheaper, and since the copies are usually poor they don't need that much space.

SP

Gary
17-03-2004, 20:55:49
Well one lives and learns. I had assumed that I was purchasing commercially made disks. A bit niave I guess but.

The thing is that although the quality isn't perfect, when viewing the bits that seem uncorrupted, they do compare reasonably with video recordings from a TV.

Besides I understand the TV company wiped the masters years ago, so any record is worth keeping, if it plays.

But this is appalling in places. Freezes, and then ages later jerks to another scene, then freezes again.

I can not believe the seller didn't know these were corrupt. But I'm unsure I want the pain of trying to get my money back since he isn't likely to just say ok. There's a limit to what my time and stress is worth.

I am more than a little suspicious too, to discover some time previously he just happened to sell the set of video tapes of the same programme series. Something I didn't realise until after I discovered the disk problems. I draw my own conclusions, and do wonder about the honesty of claiming "I've not played them on a PC".

Thanks for the response, but I was rather hoping for an idiot's guide to using simple downloadable apps to repair them.

I suspect I may be hoping in vain.

PS just watched disk 2. For about 2/3 I thought I was going to get away with no corruption on it. Ha ! 2 screwed, 4 to still try.

Nav
17-03-2004, 23:30:04
if you can get your money back, do so.

You could probably download this stuff yourself.

Deacon
17-03-2004, 23:34:23
<long-winded>
First some speculation, and then some questions. :)

One possible explanation....

Incomplete. Back in school when I had bandwidth, I used to download MPEG-1 files and then burn them as VCDs using Nero, possibly the niftiest burning software ever. Anyway, since these videos were on the usenet, they were spread out across thousands of posts. If the uploader forgets a couple posts, or if the downloader does the same, then there'll be chunks missing from the reconstructed video file.

Another possible explanation...

Related to the first. Bad video. Maybe the video pirate did a particularly bad job transferring the video from the original media to MPEG-1.

Yet another possible explanation...

Related to the first two. Maybe the video pirate didn't adhere to the VCD or SVCD standards, and encoded the video using one of the MPEG-4 related codecs. Player support for MPEG-4 is limited. PCs can play MPEG-4 only if the correct codec is installed.

And yet another possible explanation...

Related to the first three. Bad burn or bad media.

And a final speculation....

The video might have been through several repetitions of the process. Think of the "Telephone Game".

And now some questions. What is on the discs? If there isn't a giant file with a .dat extension somewhere on a disc, then it's not a VCD. Then, it's a simple matter of copying whatever .avi, .mpg, .divx, .wmv, or .asf files and getting compatible software.

If a disc is a VCD, then copying the video isn't quite straightforward. Part of the VCD is visible to OSs that undertand the ISO CD-ROM format, but the rest of the disc is written in a completely different format, and will require a special utility.
</long-winded>

A google search has led me to "ISObuster". Maybe it or Nero can be used to extract whatever's usable.

ISObuster
http://www.smart-projects.net/isobuster/

Nero
http://www.ahead.de/

QtFLW@Work
18-03-2004, 00:09:47
Long winded, but coherent, on-topic, relevant and understandable! Oh how the mighty have fallen :)

Deacon
18-03-2004, 00:40:45
On topic... drat. :)

BTW, I'm thinking of getting a new keyboard. The one I have cost $16, but the S, D, C, M and L keys are fading out after only a couple months.

Sir Penguin
18-03-2004, 03:38:13
Two words: permanent marker!

SP

Gary
18-03-2004, 07:57:21
Originally posted by Nav
You could probably download this stuff yourself.

It's a nice thought, but probably untrue. It's the UK Children's TV series "Timeslip" which seems to have become a bit of a cult thing among collectors. There's a set of 4 series, on 2 video tapes each, 2 of the series are sufficiently rare that they exchange hands at silly prices. A fully set of 4 on video would set you back around £100 (or more if there's a bidding war) if the auctions I've seen are typical.

Now if I could just download it ... :)

Gary
18-03-2004, 07:58:24
Originally posted by Sir Penguin
Two words: permanent marker!SP

Maybe. Who knows what the text was written in ? But surely that would be just silly ?

Gary
18-03-2004, 08:16:35
It'll be quicker to answer in your post given I've got to get to work in a mo ;)


Originally posted by Deacon
<long-winded>
First some speculation, and then some questions. :)

One possible explanation....

Incomplete. Back in school when I had bandwidth, I used to download MPEG-1 files and then burn them as VCDs using Nero, possibly the niftiest burning software ever. Anyway, since these videos were on the usenet, they were spread out across thousands of posts. If the uploader forgets a couple posts, or if the downloader does the same, then there'll be chunks missing from the reconstructed video file.

My guess is it was recorded from the videos he'd sold some time previously. I'd doubt greatly that it's been downoaded. If it were I'd love to know where.

Another possible explanation...

Related to the first. Bad video. Maybe the video pirate did a particularly bad job transferring the video from the original media to MPEG-1.

Possibly, but given the thing plays fine for ages before coming across the CRC file corruption, well why would one bit be ok and another not ?

Yet another possible explanation...

Related to the first two. Maybe the video pirate didn't adhere to the VCD or SVCD standards, and encoded the video using one of the MPEG-4 related codecs. Player support for MPEG-4 is limited. PCs can play MPEG-4 only if the correct codec is installed.

And yet another possible explanation...

Related to the first three. Bad burn or bad media.

Who knows ? But if he did copy himself why wouldn't he just sling the coaster and do it again properly ? The time lapse since he sold the tapes suggests he's not making a business out of it, but more probably kept a copy on disk for himself to view and sold on the collectors' item tapes. And then decided he wasn't that fussed and sold the disks too. My guess anyway.

And a final speculation....

The video might have been through several repetitions of the process. Think of the "Telephone Game".

And now some questions. What is on the discs?

Typically ...

Directory of e:\video_ts

08/01/2004 12:42 <DIR> .
08/01/2004 12:42 <DIR> ..
08/01/2004 12:42 14,336 VIDEO_TS.IFO
08/01/2004 12:42 14,336 VIDEO_TS.BUP
08/01/2004 12:42 38,912 VIDEO_TS.VOB
08/01/2004 12:42 28,672 VTS_01_0.IFO
08/01/2004 12:42 28,672 VTS_01_0.BUP
08/01/2004 12:42 832,610,304 VTS_01_1.VOB
08/01/2004 12:42 28,672 VTS_02_0.IFO
08/01/2004 12:42 28,672 VTS_02_0.BUP
08/01/2004 12:42 798,703,616 VTS_02_1.VOB
08/01/2004 12:42 28,672 VTS_03_0.IFO
08/01/2004 12:42 28,672 VTS_03_0.BUP
08/01/2004 12:42 838,227,968 VTS_03_1.VOB
08/01/2004 12:42 28,672 VTS_04_0.IFO
08/01/2004 12:42 28,672 VTS_04_0.BUP
08/01/2004 12:42 843,022,336 VTS_04_1.VOB
08/01/2004 12:42 28,672 VTS_05_0.IFO
08/01/2004 12:42 28,672 VTS_05_0.BUP
08/01/2004 12:42 839,798,784 VTS_05_1.VOB
18 File(s) 4,152,717,312 bytes
2 Dir(s) 0 bytes free

If there isn't a giant file with a .dat extension somewhere on a disc, then it's not a VCD. Then, it's a simple matter of copying whatever .avi, .mpg, .divx, .wmv, or .asf files and getting compatible software.

If a disc is a VCD, then copying the video isn't quite straightforward. Part of the VCD is visible to OSs that undertand the ISO CD-ROM format, but the rest of the disc is written in a completely different format, and will require a special utility.
</long-winded>

A google search has led me to "ISObuster". Maybe it or Nero can be used to extract whatever's usable.

ISObuster
http://www.smart-projects.net/isobuster/

Nero
http://www.ahead.de/

I do have Nero somewhere, not loaded on this secondary PC yet though. IsoBuster I have downloaded. It is one of the apps my friend used to get a copy of a corrupt file, and produce a file with a few Meg missing.

Coincidently I've had IsoBuser running all night trying to copy the VTS_05_1.VOB file to my hard drive. Looking at it now, after about 8 hours, it's managed 55% so far and still running ! I think my friend's "lite on" drive must be superior to the one supplied with this PC. Well either that or I'll find this one finally finishes with a file minus all corruption :D

Thanks for all the above though. I'm beginning to think this is not the interesting repair project that I'd hoped. That the disks may be a write off. I seem to be caught again :(

Sir Penguin
18-03-2004, 08:20:43
That's a DVD, not a CD!

SP

Gary
18-03-2004, 08:33:17
The Ebay ad said VCD. It was the first time I'd seen the TLA. Like I said I'm a newbie re videos.

I was aware it was recorded on a DVD disk, but I assumed you can use what format you like on whatever medium so long as it fitted. Thanks for the info though. Does it help solve the problem at all ?

Sir Penguin
18-03-2004, 08:41:43
Well, it's not really a VCD if it's on a DVD... but it really doesn't matter, and doesn't help any. :)

SP

Gary
18-03-2004, 09:49:15
Now I know it's DVD rather than VCD, some of these may help, if I could sort out the wheat from the chaff. But it's not like someone with experience telling you what buttons to press though. (http://www.dvdrhelp.com/tools?section=19#19)

Deacon
18-03-2004, 10:56:59
Oh. I wasn't expecting that. From the filenames and sizes, it looks like DVD movie data on a burned DVD.

DVD player software should be able to read the discs. I'd try installing player software first. If that doesn't work, then ripping software might be able to recover a portion of what's on the discs.

As an aside, some standalone players can read burned discs, but others can't. I suspect that price increases in direct proportion to versatility.

Doom9.org has good advice on using various utilities for DVD ripping under windows. I don't know much about the Windows utilities myself because I use a Linux utility called transcode. I suppose that if a DVD is playable, it only makes sense to use ripping software to make a backup.

Some folks have disk space to burn, and they simply decrypt and store the VOBs. Others like to pull one audio and one video stream from the VOBs and apply codecs that use less space. The result goes into an AVI file. I like to use XviD (one of the MPEG-4 related codecs ) and MP3. There's a slight quality loss using this second approach, but it uses way less space. One hour per 700MB CD-R feels about right.

Deacon
18-03-2004, 11:03:04
http://www.dvddecrypter.com/guide.asp

Looks promising.

Gary
18-03-2004, 12:37:29
Popped back during lunch to check up on things.

Thanks for the effort. I'll certainly give it a try this evening (before trying to watch the 3rd series).

I'm unconvinced about the CRC errors though, but may be pleasantly surprised.

Meanwhile I need to test it all asap as I need to make a decision as to whether to insist on my money back, which may be difficult on a private Ebay sale, or write it off and repair whatever I can.

As mentioned, my friend had a stand alone hi fi type dvd player. It fared no better on that than the PC drives. And much worse than his PC drive, which coped best, but not perfectly.

Oh Gawd, ISOBuster is only at 58% ! That's an additonal 3% in 4 hours ! If I wait for that to finish I'll not watch anything tonight !

Gary
18-03-2004, 12:43:16
PS The PC came with WinDVD4 installed (ES version I think it said) So I use that for watching these things.

Nav
18-03-2004, 12:54:55
if the data is corrupted there isn't too much you can do, unfortunately.

Gary
18-03-2004, 13:16:15
Know what you're saying, but was hoping for 2 things to be possible.

1. Multiple read attempts getting the data eventually when the CRC is suddenly correct, or there is enough evidence one particular reading might be right by whatever other means. (Unsure if light/laser disks are as prone as magnetic disks to different read values.)

2. Where it is screwed, past pixel and/or frame could suggest what the best value to patch it with might be, or in the case of audio, best audio value to patch with.

Suspect that's more than easily available apps can do though.

Gary
18-03-2004, 17:17:55
Yay ! 60% that's another 2% in 4 hours. Now let's see that means 80 more hours = About Tuesday. I may as well stop ISOBuster. I don't have the resouce to let it run to the end. It's tying up the PC and DVD drive permanently :(

MDA
18-03-2004, 17:54:15
We should have stuck with Betamax.

QtFLW@Work
18-03-2004, 20:54:47
Bah. Celluloid reels were far superior!

Gary
18-03-2004, 23:37:53
Ah dvddecrypter. Maybe there's a poor setting somewhere, but it keeps moaning that it can't read something, and wants me to push an option. :( Doesn't seem to be something you can leave.

Still loads more to try eh ?

Deacon
19-03-2004, 07:19:41
I dunno. I'd be about ready to give up. Maybe try a friend's Lite-On just to be sure.

zmama
19-03-2004, 14:12:43
:lol:
I read that as Lite-Brite...I think that might work just as well :D

http://www.edutainingkids.com/reviews/toylitebritecube.jpg

QtFLW@Work
19-03-2004, 20:26:03
It'd be a pain in the ass swapping the light on that to generate a moving picture though.

Friend of mine has a bootleg Futurama first season CD with some badly encoded MPEGs on it. I'm guesing they're crap because they all had to fit on a single CD. I wouldn't know where to begin to clean it up, or even if it's possible (I'd suspect not, that it was deliberately encoded with ultra-low quality just to fit on the disc). You might be SoL with this one, Gary. Unless reinstalling your HP O/S somehow made it magically play nicer on your PC :) :)

Gary
20-03-2004, 00:15:17
Humph !

The repaired PC turns out to now have missing stuff that I need, such as the WinDVD and worst of all, the MS Office suite I spent good money for. Must be as a result of my attempts to remove theoffending driver, or something. Not that any of that was deliberately removed.

Good to have it back, but it feels crippled at the moment. Ah well, that's life.

Actually both ISO Buster and DVD Decrypter have passed the 24 hours non-stop mark. Although the latter is doing the whole disk while the former just the one VOB file !

QtFLW@Work
20-03-2004, 00:26:58
re: the missing apps, I had the same problem with a PC I bought my sister for her birthday once. The jerks that put it together didn't do the O/S install right, AND they used a disc with a different licence key to install it than the one they gave us (which is illegal, I should have turned their asses in!) So I was forced to reintall the O/S from scratch.

Of course, they didn't give me the discs for the apps. So after the format they were long gone. Still, it worked tons better afterwards!

Gary
10-09-2004, 13:02:50
Ah this old one.

You guys may be totally uninterested to know that after Iíd threatened him with court action, twice, the little shit finally stopped trying to wriggle out of refunding my money.

Just a tip for UK posters, if you see an item on ebay.co.uk being sold by someone called fat-bl0ke then you may want to think twice. I'm sure if it arrives in good condition all is likely to be well, but woe betide you if it arrives unfit for purpose ! If it's the same bloke I dealt with (and who else would pick up that pseudo name ?) you'll need all the luck you can get.

Anyway he INSISTED on refunding via Paypal, the same method I paid him. Part of the excuse for not refunding me earlier I believe. But it turns out that Paypal has placed an annoying limit on the time during which a refund can be paid, so it came to me as a payment, not a refund.

This allowed Paypal to see their chance to grab a "pound of flesh" from my misfortune by telling me I had to upgrade my account to accept incoming payments, and that they'd steal (I'm sure they used a different word, but grabbing my refund comes under the heading of stealing to me) a percentage of my money.

I tried many times to get them to be fair but they didn't give a shit. So their customer took my money and didn't refund it as he should in a reasonable time ? Why should they care, they make the rules.

In fact it was difficult to even contact them at first. My reply to their email just got returned, rejected, so I had to go to their site. Copying in the email text and pasting it screwed, as there was a daft 1,000 character limit, so I had to send it in 3 lots. Which Paypal then ignored.

I had to chase them again, and this time their reply seemed to be standard quotes for incoming payments from their manual. Worst they were stupid enough to suggest that I refuse the payment !!!!!!!!!!!!!! and go back to the sender and ask for a refund instead.

Coming back at them yet again resulted in a similar reply. (Except this time they realised their time limit for refunds had run out.) Itís like their brain is turned off, all they can do is quote what amounts to "tough we don't give a shit".

So I resigned myself to the theft, and decided a) never to use their services again, and thus b) to just get the money out and call it a day, rather than let them have it until another purchase was made, which had been the plan previously.

What happened ? Well they arenít going to put the money back onto my card, oh no, they want bank details as well. Well of course, despite the admission in the text fat-bl0ke sent with the payment, Paypal were pretending this wasnít a refund so I guess that was the excuse not to put it back on the card. They are also pushing for a direct debit agreement which is totally offensive and I was surprised to find I seem to have managed not to arrange.

I now await to see if the money arrives in my bank account, but to really put salt on the wound, not only did they take a percentage of the refund to put it in my Paypal account, they charged again to put in into my bank ! What a bunch of cunts !

Anyway, thatís not all. Having reached a point where fat-bl0ke has finally paid back something, now is the time to leave the feedback at ebay to warn others. So I go to ebay.co.uk to try to do so.

What do I find ? No link into the feedback section for my transaction ! It seems to me ebay are so concerned for their customers that if you have a really really really bad experience with someone who takes a while to persuade to do the right thing, ebay will remove the right to leave feedback. Presumably because that might just stop someone else falling foul of the same problem.

Are all the bad guys on the Net in league with each other, protecting their own ? Iíve not contacted ebay yet as a) Iíve not had a lot of time to go look for how to, and b) I canít recall anywhere which gave details of how to do so.

Gee I get sick of all this. Maybe one day Iíll learn that the Net is simply not worth the damn effort.

Sir Penguin
10-09-2004, 18:39:17
Or learn to accept that in the case of big companies, justice outweighs mercy. And that you're not a special case.

SP

Gary
10-09-2004, 19:50:58
To any decent company, ALL customers are special cases, because they value their reputation as a fair company to do business with.

Or is that just what they tell their employees to keep them under the thumb ?

Sir Penguin
10-09-2004, 20:12:53
Your problem isn't Paypal's responsibility, it's your's and the other guy's. To get a full refund, you're asking Paypal to break their own rules, and that's asking too much. That's the justice side.

On the mercy side, someone there has the power to go through the hassle of refunding you the couple pounds you spent on the transaction, and is willing to do so to keep a customer. Good luck finding him.

Personally, I say look at the transaction fee as tuition for learning not to buy from someone with a low feedback rating like 97.3%. It will save everyone a crapload of hassle.

SP

Sir Penguin
10-09-2004, 20:18:11
And don't forget to blast him in your feedback comment. ;)

SP

Deacon
10-09-2004, 20:44:17
I don't think I'll be doing a whole lot of shopping using Paypal and Ebay. I guess they're the only way to find really old things. I bought Falcon Gold through Ebay for dirt cheap, so I don't care if it runs or not. :)

Sir Penguin
10-09-2004, 23:52:00
I found the 3rd edition D&D Dungeon Master's Guide and Monster Manual on Ebay for US$0.01 (C$0.01) being sold by a guy in Vancouver. I decided to leave them so that if nobody bought them, then the seller might put them back up for cheaper.

SP

Gary
12-09-2004, 21:39:38
Your problem isn't Paypal's responsibility, it's your's and the other guy's. To get a full refund, you're asking Paypal to break their own rules, and that's asking too much. That's the justice side.

I disagree. Paypal make their own rules up and if they make one that says a refund will not count as a refund unless it is with short period of time, even when there is evidence it really is a refund, then justice is non-existent. They're just looking to grab what they can, fair or not, from those who can't do owt about it.

Set up correctly and fairly it shouldn't be a hassle to pay a refund. If it is proving such then they have set things up badly. Besides how much more hassle is it than to keep refusing my requests / enquiries ?

Since most regular sellers are going to get the occasional bad buyer surely it is excessive to only stick with those with a 100% rating ? I think so anyway. Not that I can recall what rating he had a few months back. And I'd love to blast him with the feedback, but as I said in the post, ebay has taken that option away ! It just adds insult to injury.

Sir Penguin
13-09-2004, 04:48:33
But you agreed to the rules. You agreed that they would not have to refund your money after a period of time.

I don't expect a seller to have a 100% feedback rating, but I do expect someone with as high a feedback score as 300+ to have at least 99%. Reading the negative and neutral feedback, the guy obviously takes his time when it comes to dealing with transactions, as you found out.

SP

Gary
13-09-2004, 10:33:12
No one (or next to no one) reads through the pages and pages of small print when you can't change them anyway. Whilst it is a theoretic option for each individual, in practice one has to expect a company, with the law looking over its shoulder, to do the right thing. All "the rules" do is allow a company to do the wrong thing and get away with it, just so long as it isn't 'wrong enough' for the law to decide it was an unacceptable condition and so isn't valid. It doesn't make it the right thing.

So to say I agreed to the rules, or indeed anyone agrees to the rules, is disingenuous. One clicks/ticks whatever one is told to in order to get the service offered. Again what it means is not that folk have agreed in reality to be abused, but merely that the law will tend to conclude that they have done so, for the sake of simplifying the law at a cost of less equitability to the citizen.

The point I am making is that Paypal is clearly not doing the right thing with regards to this set of circumstances.

Sir Penguin
13-09-2004, 21:47:14
I'm not talking about moral wrong and right, I'm talking about justice. You agreed to the rules. It's your own fault for not reading them, and it's not your right to dictate when a company should break its own rules to suit you.

The rules don't just allow a company to do the wrong thing; that's a ridiculous generalization. The rules allow the company to operate within specific boundaries, and keep special cases to a minimum. They set out what the company is prepared and able to do, and allow the company to say "No" when someone asks them to do something that is outside their scope.

SP

Gary
14-09-2004, 10:15:46
Justice is about right and wrong. And one decides what is right and wrong by looking at the morals involved. You canít not talk about one, and at the same time talk about the other.

This nonsense about, "you agreed to the rules itís your own fault", is the sort of statement one expects from one taking advantage of another. If you donít believe me why do governments take such a concern about monopolies ? Itís because when the consumer has no real choice then power can be abused. And if all companies seem to be the same, then much the same sort of situation occurs. Why do you think the law does not allow "sharp" retailers to put up signs saying that goods are not returnable, and the signs are invalid if they are put up ? It's because the consumer can be expected to have a right to what is fair.

And whereís all this about me saying when a company has to break itís own rules ? Iím saying that their rules shouldn't allow this situation to occur in the first place, and that having screwed up, if they had two or more brain cells to rub together theyíd have the sense to accept that and do the right thing, which is to change them, and start with this case. Otherwise their reputation will suffer as word gets out, apologists for them not preventing it of course. Iíve done my best to warn folks here that they donít, and all you can do is have a go at me for giving out that information ? What is this ? A major troll attempt or something ? Got bored lately ?

Of course rules can allow folk to do the wrong thing, although I thought you werenít talking about right and wrong. When a company writes rules it need spend no attention to what is right or wrong at all. All it has to do is write the rules to suit itself without even considering what is right. Just so long as it is legal, and even then, maybe not if a precedent hasn't been set. And I have indicated above that this is exactly what has occurred here. They are grabbing what they can having lured me in with the promise of a free account.

Allowing folk to believe that a pay account is free and them charging them when they get a refund on some technicality they themselves wrote into the rules is self evidently wrong. I donít understand why you even think it is debateable.

Sir Penguin
14-09-2004, 19:15:24
Justice has nothing to do with moral right and wrong, it has to do with the law and the rules (OK, justice deals with moral right and wrong, but only when there are laws and rules about it).

I'm only trolling a little. I think that mercy is on your side, and that Paypal would be morally right to give you your money back. But I do believe everything I've said. I don't think you have the right to expect them to ignore their own rules for your sake--you only have the right to ask them to do it, and if they refuse, then that's their right.

When you agree to terms and conditions, it's just as legally binding as signing a contract. It's your own damned responsibility if you don't read the terms and then find out later that you don't agree with them. Whose else could it be? Certainly not Paypal's, they clearly stated their terms and conditions, and gave you the option to agree to them or not.

Sorry, but the rules are against you. It's Paypal's choice whether or not they give you a refund. I think they should, because you're a customer and you got a raw deal. But if they do, it will be because of mercy, and not justice.

SP

Scabrous Birdseed
14-09-2004, 19:25:33
What if it was in the terms and conditions that "the buyer will be killed by a hired asassin at a date decided by the seller"?

Sir Penguin
14-09-2004, 20:00:20
I don't know about you, but I wouldn't agree to those conditions.

SP

Scabrous Birdseed
14-09-2004, 20:10:05
But what if it was, and the buyer agreed?

Sir Penguin
14-09-2004, 21:17:11
I'm sorry, are you being serious? If so, that doesn't apply to the discussion, since we're dealing with terms that don't break the law.

SP

Gary
14-09-2004, 23:17:34
Justice is primarily about fairness, It is only secondarily related to law.

If it were as you state, then the legal system would not intervene when you bought something off of a trader who stated prior to the sale that they would not accept a return under any conditions. Legally one can ignore those "agreed" conditions under the relevant protection act. Given that there is a precedent to say something "agreed" beforehand can be ignored, then all such "agreements" can be subject to the same thing and tested.

But this was never about the legal position, it was about right and wrong. I know because I stared the thread.

Sir Penguin
15-09-2004, 00:29:14
Then we have different definitions of justice. I define justice as strictly limited to the dictates of the law. It has nothing to do with fairness, except when it comes to laws that legislate fairness. Fairness is the realm of mercy and conscience, which is just as important as--but distinct from--justice. More specifically, justice is imposed, while mercy is the individual's choice.

That legal example doesn't have anything to do with your problem though, does it? The law is the way it is, and rules are the way they are. If the rules don't conflict with a higher order of rules or laws, then they are valid and I think anyone who agrees to them is bound by them, morally when the law doesn't say you have to be bound.

I still think you're wrong to expect Paypal to break their own rules, since the nothing related to the issue is their fault. It's mostly the fault of that jerk who sold you the broken VCDs, and then sat on his ass while the Paypal return deadline passed. By my definition, you have no recourse with justice. You just have mercy (either from Paypal, or from the guy), which isn't your decision.

SP

Sir Penguin
15-09-2004, 00:31:38
Just to be clear, what I'm saying totally makes me a hypocrite, since I tend to skirt laws when they're inconvenient. But I'm still right. ;)

SP

Scabrous Birdseed
17-09-2004, 20:42:19
Originally posted by Sir Penguin
I'm sorry, are you being serious? If so, that doesn't apply to the discussion, since we're dealing with terms that don't break the law.

SP

We have a legally-stipulated right of return within 14 days. Don't you?

Scabrous Birdseed
17-09-2004, 20:44:57
And anyway your definition of justice is STUPID!!!! :p :p :p

Fairness shouldn't come out of mercy, it should come through our blood and sweat come the revolution. Death the unfair!

Sir Penguin
17-09-2004, 21:24:40
If they have a legally-stipulated right of return within 14 days (that applied to transactions, and not goods), then Gary would have a legal recourse, and I'm wrong. :)

SP