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Croaker
03-03-2004, 05:48:59
anybody listen to rap!?

Scabrous Birdseed
03-03-2004, 07:31:36
As in mainstream hip-hop from the early to late nineties? It happens. These days the snorky distinction between "real" hip-hop and mere rap seems to have dissappeared, thank goodness, seemingly along with that latter term.

If you just mean hip-hop in general (which I hope you do) I listen to considerably more, with a definate focus on various dirty south subgenres (bounce, crunk, screw, the hampton roads sound) plus the occasional north-eastern Kanye West or Just Blaze production. Never really dug the west coast, and anyway nothing of note has come out of there for years. Please spare me Boston, Philadelphia and any other nest of "Underground" rappers.

Funkodrom
03-03-2004, 08:45:24
Yeah, sometimes.

fp@korea
03-03-2004, 08:55:45
I mostly just listen to crap.

Lazarus and the Gimp
03-03-2004, 09:18:49
Yes, but I'm picky. I prefer British to American, with a particular preference for Fun-da-mental and Tricky. It seems more inventive and thoughtful to me than the vast majority of the US rap I've encountered.

Eklektikos
03-03-2004, 10:57:17
On occasion, although the only album I currently own which answers that description is Dr Octagon.

Funkodrom
03-03-2004, 11:12:46
That's a fucking great album.

Gramercy Riffs
03-03-2004, 13:14:15
Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
It seems more inventive and thoughtful to me than the vast majority of the US rap I've encountered.

Cannibal Ox and Anti Pop Consortium were two exceptions the rule. Both have split up now though.

Scabrous Birdseed
03-03-2004, 21:27:46
Awful both. Boston should be torched.

*End Is Forever*
03-03-2004, 22:00:46
No.

Gramercy Riffs
03-03-2004, 22:16:14
Originally posted by Scabrous Birdseed
Awful both. Boston should be torched.

:confused:

Both who? Cannibal Ox and APC?

Neither are from Boston.

Scabrous Birdseed
03-03-2004, 22:23:33
Aren't they? Well, north-east anyway. The whole middle-class undergroud bollocks is appaling.

Gramercy Riffs
03-03-2004, 22:35:43
Originally posted by Scabrous Birdseed
The whole middle-class undergroud bollocks is appaling.

What, purely on the basis of it being "middle class"?

Besides, do you know enough about either to call them middle class?

Funkodrom
03-03-2004, 23:18:57
Can only poor people make good music?

protein
03-03-2004, 23:53:23
Utter bollocks. Poor people can't afford to make music.

Scabrous Birdseed
04-03-2004, 08:14:47
Originally posted by Gramercy Riffs
What, purely on the basis of it being "middle class"?

Besides, do you know enough about either to call them middle class?

My favourite radio show pesters (pestered?) me with APC on occasion, I freely admit to never having heard any Cannibal Ox though. Since you place them in the same category I form a baseless prejudice around your musical tastes and assume they're the same sort of achingly pretentious, boringly produced, ancient sounding shite.

I can admit I liked bits of Beans's solo album if it makes you feel any better. :)

A lot of good hip-hopers are middle class just like (most) good punks were middle class, but it's those who fall into the class trap (tradition! pretention! ambition! insecurity!) I've got difficulties with. Hip-hop is, and remains, a primarily fuck-off commercial style on the bleeding edge of nowhere and I don't want hordes of white-oriented backpacker rappers coming in and academising it. (Unless they're gorgeously produced, although I suppose you lot have abandoned Kanye West now that he's so successful and no longer lah-di-dah non-commercial.)

Funkodrom
04-03-2004, 09:21:47
You seem to be posting in swedish or something.

Scabrous Birdseed
04-03-2004, 09:50:54
:rolleyes:

I realise (based on that LWP6 submission I assume was from you, plus the ones from previous entires) that you like your hip-hop to be sterile, boring and stuck in an eternal mid-nieties loop. Just don't project your backpacker rap sensibilities on the rest of us.

I find any music that's not actually culturally relevant to the people who make it, made only for export and gawky tourists, to be both suspect musically and abhorent politically.

Funkodrom
04-03-2004, 09:56:02
Yeah, but you're one of those pretentious music journalist types. Most of us just like stuff based on whether or not we think it sounds good or not rather than some politically correct agenda.

I haven't submitted anything on LWP6.

Scabrous Birdseed
04-03-2004, 10:03:32
Oh yeah. :o

I just feel an intense dislike (based on "what I like") towards any musical style that originates within an oppressed community of some sort, yet is driven by, produced for and marketed towards an entirely different, more powerful community far removed from the originators. It's a type of neo-colonialism as far as I'm concerned, an exploitation and exotisation of the former colonial subalterns. "World Music" and Backpacker rap is really the same deal- it's softened down, more old-fashioned, more "exotic", all based on orientalism-like prejudices and power structures. Thus it also sounds worse than the genuine article.

Funkodrom
04-03-2004, 10:09:16
Yeah, but you said that Spearhead was backpacker rap and that's one of Michael Franti's projects.

Scabrous Birdseed
04-03-2004, 10:13:28
Face it, man, Michael Franti is a sleep-inducingly boring stooge to the white man. The ultimate backpacker rapper.

Gramercy Riffs
04-03-2004, 18:19:04
Originally posted by Scabrous Birdseed
I can admit I liked bits of Beans's solo album if it makes you feel any better. :)

Much, thank you. I'll sleep well tonight.

paiktis22
04-03-2004, 18:24:06
Some underground, really dirty talking rap songs have unbelievably intoxicating and new rythmes and powa. Unortunately that's all I know about them.

Nills Lagerbaak
04-03-2004, 18:32:48
Yeah, I'm with Scabby on this one, there's nothing worse than music being dressed up by marketing arseholes as a product of someones suffering, when the artists and the listeners probably haven't even heard of the sufferers in question.
(Lower Early boys listening to gangster rap, smoking spliff in the Golf that mummy bought them)

Which is why I prefer the artists who keep it more absract (Kool Keith, Peanut butter wolf, Killa Kella etc. ) or decide to go for the more Hip/Hop big beat cross over, (Jurassic 5, depth charge etc. etc. )
I also love Public enemy, NWA, Tone loc, dream warriors. Oldies but goodies!

Gramercy Riffs
04-03-2004, 18:45:25
Both Cannibal Ox and APC are abstract. That was my point, before we digressed into class war bullshit.

Nills Lagerbaak
04-03-2004, 20:36:15
Oh, and "poor people can't afford to make music", now that's complete bollox. The best music comes from situations when people don't have computers and fancy recording equipment

protein
04-03-2004, 20:55:07
Scabby, are you saying that you should only make music that reflects your social standing and location? Are you also saying that white people shouldn't rap?

protein
04-03-2004, 21:01:35
Nills, how does that music made without instruments or recording equipment get to your CD player exactly? Do you remember what we used to sound like before we had any equipment?

I find this whole thread a little bizarre. Is the music I/sonic undermind make somehow not relevant because I/we aren't reflecting our social standing and location? Would me using influenced from other parts of the world be somehow wrong?

Scabrous Birdseed
04-03-2004, 21:08:39
I'm saying that if their social standing will negatively impact on their ability to make music originating from another social standing convincingly they shouldn't.

I don't mind white people rapping, but I don't like white people from another community going in and picking out the sounds of the "primitives", Alan Lomax style. If you can relate to rap by all means do it, just don't think you've got the same background as them because of it.

And anyway why not do your own thing? Let yourself be inspired by another culture's music but for god sakes, you're not them, do something original. Make local music for local people, don't ride on the good name of another community. :)

protein
04-03-2004, 21:15:14
The fact that rock'n'roll is bastardised american black music would mean that SU would have to start playing folk and all of my musical influenced would have to be ignored.

Creativity is a reshaping of your influences with the twist of your own imagination. Cutting off those influences because they aren't keeping it within your race or location is absurd and offensive.

There are no new or pure forms of music, everything is a re-shaping. Give a guitar to man who had never heard music before don't teach him to play it and see what he comes up with. Music is another form of language that you learn from people who have been there before you whatever their location or how much money they have in the bank.

I have a feeling that Scabby thinks that music made by poor and oppressed black people is somehow better than other forms of music.

paiktis22
04-03-2004, 21:25:54
as long as it's not immitating is alright i guess.

also creativity maybe comes mainly from sorrow.

Scabrous Birdseed
04-03-2004, 21:33:25
Everything you said in that post is correct. :)

I agree that everything is a slightly refried plate of infuence beans, which I think is good - It's a shame to throw out tasty music, but by all means try to put yourself into it, will you? Also do work with the people around you rather than against them. Communities and scenes are positive thing and you can learn stuff off each other. One of them is what other influences from outside there are that you've yet to hear.

I do in fact tend to think that music originating from below (hip-hop, country, most rock) is better than that originating from above (Pop Idol, Kylie Minouge/Pete Waterman, Pat Boone). Don't you? :)

I think you're misunderestimating my message, protein- I love communities working on an equal basis and seeking influences off each other, as peers. What I do find disturbing is when one community is allowed to control the output of another.

protein
04-03-2004, 21:56:12
Well I'm bound to get defensive when you say things about watered down world music and the like. I write watered down world music. I like to use elements of music from different parts of the world but I wouldn't attempt to create genuine Japanese folk music nor would I attempt to make full on American hip hop but I will be influenced by those genres.

I don't care where music comes from, if it's good then that's what matters.

Incidently, I'm writing some beats for a label in Detroit. Is detroit good or bad or does that depend on the colour of the people running the label? If I end up with a white rapper on the tracks would that make it any less real?

protein
04-03-2004, 21:56:45
Wow, you've changed your avatar. I like.

Scabrous Birdseed
04-03-2004, 22:19:37
Originally posted by protein
Well I'm bound to get defensive when you say things about watered down world music and the like.

You've misunderstood what I mean by watered-down world music. It's more insiduous than what you suggest; I mean music selected produced in the third world that's either been watered down for the western market or has been selected for western distribution because it is less hard and more safe than other music produced in the same locale. It's the kind of mentality that puts several CDs worth of steel drum music in your local HMV (total fan base on Trinidad = three, all of them on the tourist board) but absolutely no Soca, Chutney, Rapso or other modern, creative music from the same place.

Now, that doesn't stop me from disliking quite a bit of Worldbeat as well, but that's largely for different reasons (the us-them divide, for instance).

protein
04-03-2004, 22:52:23
The us-them divide being something like "Listen to my speaking log drum, I got it in Africa and it's what real Africans use when they summon spirits" sort of thing?

Scabrous Birdseed
04-03-2004, 23:03:29
No it's the "Zambia, Tibet, they're both in the third world so they must make music that's exactly similarly different from the degenerate music we have here in the decadent west" thing.

protein
04-03-2004, 23:38:37
Ah. Haven't come across that yet.

Scabrous Birdseed
05-03-2004, 07:53:27
Buy any "world music" compilation, go to Womad, listen to a world music radio show and it's practically screaming.

protein
05-03-2004, 09:16:34
Not at all. I see reggae, hip hop, techno, drum'n'bass, jazz, cuban, traditional folk from all over the world. I don't wander around thinking that music from the third world is any better than anything else. Most of the stuff I really get excited about is second world anyway. :lol:

I think it's fantastic that I get to go to an all genre, all inclusive, unpredictable and really, really fun festival down the road every year.

I still don't understand what's wrong with liking music from other parts of the world. You never talk about Swedish music, you seem to get all excited about Jamaican music, I tend to get excited about loads of different flavours.

Scabrous Birdseed
05-03-2004, 09:48:33
Second world? What, the Soviet Union and its allied states? :)

WOMAD is intensely predictable in that it manages, every year, to ignore anything vaguely modern, youthful, hardcore or actually popular in the world. It's all about collaborations between middle-aged western musicians and middle-aged third-world musicians producing old-fashioned, exotically "different" music for Radio 2 listeners. Very little of what gets played is actually from the third world - look at the amount of german, french, english etc. bands that end up on there. The third world stuff you actually get is generally obscure folk music that's often been after-constructed by "helpful" foreigners, rather than something actually culturally relevant to the community that produces it.

The following genres are among the most popular in their respective countries. I challenge you to find any of them in quantities more than "one for novelty" in any world-music-related event:

Soca, Carioca Funk, Kwaito, Bachata, Merenhouse, Chutney, "Arabesk" Turkpop, Dangdut, Arabic Pop, Bhangra, Bollywood/Hindi Pop, Dancehall, Reggaeton, Raļ, Zouk.

Nills Lagerbaak
05-03-2004, 11:31:44
Womad has become so watered down it's rediculous. My dad is a much better person to comment as he's been going there (of and on) for over 20 years now, but I can see what he means . Everything you see now is fusion, with extremely little left of the original "world" music. Part of this is of course the artists fault, they were once traditional singers and now western superstars, so their music is bound to change, as they become more popular. Take Salif Keta (sp?) for example. His record used to be about 90% (amazing) singing. If you see him at Womad or listen to his current stuff, it's just horrific pop music backed by a really tight band playing elevator music. I have nothing against fusion, I love it! ?But a festival that keeps claiming to represent world music, should play original world music I think.

protein
05-03-2004, 12:27:06
What is original world music? World music doesn't exist, it's just a part of the record shop where you would put a Tibetan nose flute artist or a Thai gamalan album.

Whenever I've been there I've seen great traditional music and wicked dance music. I tend to avoid the fusion stuff like the plague. That generally involves african musicians playing terribly boring stuff on guitars, drums and bass or dull reggae.

I go for the folky music from all over, the live dancy stuff, the cabaret and the getting wasted in a nice safe family environment.

In an ideal womad for me there would be minimal african music and maximum arabic and asian music. A big helping Thai pop and some bangra would be awesome too.