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Lady_of_Chicken
25-02-2004, 19:56:29
Only one review seemed to stick to criticizing it as art/a movie and leaving all the rest of the noise over it out. The reviewer thought that as art it says more about Mel Gibson's fury versus faith. Nothing to atract non-believers; that the focus lingers too long on the violence to make more of an impact on a broader audience.

Still debating if I will go see it and find out what all the hoopla is about.

Qweeg
26-02-2004, 13:57:06
crap film, no car chases, I guess you have to be in that cult to see the point of it.

BigGameHunter
26-02-2004, 22:06:12
I'm a bit disturbed that the movie about Christ and Christian values that everyone is getting all sweaty about is rooted in the violent death of its centerpiece. Yes, I know the "death of Christ" is a bid component of the religion, but not nearly the most important one, IMO.
Personally, I've always focused on the "suffer the little children" and "judge not lest ye be judged" aspect of Jesus, which is why I shy away from such things as churches and media events about him, as I believe it belittles his message.
But it sadly does not surprise me that such a seemingly blunt instrument would get people all charged up and full of righteous holiness. Sad, really.

If you want to see a really neato movie about Catholic type stuff, rent The Mission with De Niro and Jeremy Irons. Top rate movie.

Venom
26-02-2004, 22:34:56
"but not nearly the most important one,"

I think that's flat out wrong. That is the single defining moment of Christianity. Everything else is born from that.

Gramercy Riffs
26-02-2004, 22:40:20
The Mission is excellent. Very powerful.

maroule
26-02-2004, 23:17:49
I liked the Mission too
and anyway, I prefer a movie about redemption than about the guilt of crucifying the christ : hell I ain't done it

BigGameHunter
26-02-2004, 23:53:23
Venom I think you are misunderstanding me-- unless you mean the scourging and the walk to Golgatha and the crucifixion itself, I think you mean the rebirth of Christ, which I'd agree with, but that's a whole different story. I don't think a movie needs to focus on him getting the shit kicked out of him to convey the message. It's like Kill Bill meets Jesus or something. What's the point...? Are we so jaded now that only the violent death of Christ gets our attention? His death is a minor facet--his reputed rebirth and ascension is vastly more pertinent.

QtFLW@Work
27-02-2004, 00:00:27
I don't think that's what Venom means (though I'm the last person to understand what goes on in his excuse for a mind :) ). Jesus suffered and died for our sins. Some see that as the most important part of Christian beliefs.

But what the hell would I know, big fat atheist that I am.

Venom
27-02-2004, 00:26:01
Originally posted by QtFLW@Work
Jesus suffered and died for our sins. Some see that as the most important part of Christian beliefs.


Bingo. Even more than the ressurection, that's what it means to be a follower of Jesus. He suffered and died for our sins. And suffered in a truly horrible way that I don't think many people can imagine when they're given the brief overall description of "he suffered and was crucified". The punishment he took is in direct proportion to what people owe, and what people will always owe, because of mankinds sins, and for some people, to see that brought to life is infinitely more powerful than even the words in the Bible.

Qaj the Fuzzy Love Worm
27-02-2004, 06:01:00
Picture is worth a thousand words and all that, hey?

Never thought I'd hear Venom be passionate about Jesus :D

BigGameHunter
27-02-2004, 07:40:19
I bring out the best in people. :)

OK...that's cool. I don't agree, but so what?

I like the lamb and the lion stuff and the turning the other cheek and all that. I don't believe in Original Sin.

Qweeg
27-02-2004, 12:02:49
Originally posted by Venom
Bingo. Even more than the ressurection, that's what it means to be a follower of Jesus. He suffered and died for our sins. And suffered in a truly horrible way that I don't think many people can imagine when they're given the brief overall description of "he suffered and was crucified". The punishment he took is in direct proportion to what people owe, and what people will always owe, because of mankinds sins, and for some people, to see that brought to life is infinitely more powerful than even the words in the Bible.

I didn't know Venom was capable of this kind of post... I'm shocked and... a little disapointed.

However I disagree about all this 'how jesus suffered and how we all owe him stuff'. Millions of people have suffered as much and more in two thousand years, many millions of them were children. Did their suffering represent anything? No, just stupid senselessness and/or hate. Jesus may of been a nice guy, but if he 'died for mankinds sins' whatever the fuck that means, it didn't really have much of an effect. The world is just as shitty as it was then, except faster, bigger and more complex. Pointless pain-voyuerism the lot of it.

QtFLW@Work
27-02-2004, 16:55:47
Good point, Qweeg, but the other point is that, being part divine, Jesus didn't have to go through that, he could have chosen to spare himself the pain and agony... and then went and chose it anyway.

Venom
27-02-2004, 17:00:45
Originally posted by Qweeg
I didn't know Venom was capable of this kind of post... I'm shocked and... a little disapointed.


Not my fault you're a closed minded, stereotyping manbitch.

Lady_of_Chicken
27-02-2004, 19:34:57
Some friends who have seen it (and worried it would be too violent and they are not the types that will watch) thought it wasn't as bad as they feared it would be. They thought it was as they had imagined; their faith has deepened because it has brought to reality in a visual way what they could only imagine.

They also mentioned that it didn't bring any anti-semitism to mind. It was just a personal experience for them. So they went to the movie with their beliefs and experienced it that way. Beyond laying blame it was about their ...personal relationship with Christ.

I want to see the film because I have been wondering what it is like for the non-believer...and after reading non-believer responses (here and elsewhere of those who have see the film and those who haven't) I'm curious, as a writer, how the film comes across. I heard Gibson made the film for non-believers, but it doesn't sound as if he is reaching them. It does sound as if he is reaching lasped believers and an interesting thing I see coming up in internet discussions...non-Catholic Christians are wowed because it's dismantling some of their perceptions about Catholicism. They expected to find flaws in the film because a Catholic made it. So they are seeing a strongly Catholic film and not finding such things as Mary being worshipped, for example, yet finding she has a strong and poignant role.

I also wonder if there will be a Part II.

BGH brings up good points, too. Maybe that would have attracted the non-believer and made the Passion so much more powerful for them. To see Christ's life (to connect or identify with the character), then the death...and possibly the resurrection.

Not to defend or explain the faith or offer proof, just to make the gospels visual with some creative license.

JM^3
27-02-2004, 22:32:58
I liked it and thought that is was well done. BGH you sound more protestant than Catholic (which is what I beleive you are a lapsed of).

Jon Miller

BigGameHunter
27-02-2004, 22:38:23
You take that back!
You're talking to a Eucharistic Minister, sonny!

Chris
27-02-2004, 22:59:54
Originally posted by Qweeg
However I disagree about all this 'how jesus suffered and how we all owe him stuff'. Millions of people have suffered as much and more in two thousand years, many millions of them were children. Did their suffering represent anything? No, just stupid senselessness and/or hate. Jesus may of been a nice guy, but if he 'died for mankinds sins' whatever the fuck that means, it didn't really have much of an effect. The world is just as shitty as it was then, except faster, bigger and more complex. Pointless pain-voyuerism the lot of it. Qweegy old boy, this shows what I suspected, your completly ignorent of Christian faith, you have it all wrong.

The Christ died for mankind's sins doesn't mean everyone is absolved, it meant that all people, no matter their flaws, can find redemption and everlasting life in his kingdom if they accept him in their heart.

You equate the sins of man as being the fault of religion.

MAN commits evil, often in the name of religion, doesn't make religion evil. Only the foolish and the simpleminded fail to understand this.

And no, I'm not a religious fanatic, and I don't give a rat's ass if you burn or not.

About the movie, that's all it is, a movie.

Qweeg
28-02-2004, 13:17:08
Originally posted by Venom
Not my fault you're a closed minded, stereotyping manbitch.

No, it's not your fault I'm a closed minded stereotyping man. I admit I find it hard to let other peoples belief in this kind of stuff pass without assault, but that's just part of who I am. You have your beliefs and I can't say you've ever tried to force me to accept them.

Qweeg
28-02-2004, 13:19:55
Originally posted by QtFLW@Work
Good point, Qweeg, but the other point is that, being part divine, Jesus didn't have to go through that, he could have chosen to spare himself the pain and agony... and then went and chose it anyway.

Bah. Lots of good people have suffered outragiously painful experiences at the hands of cruel bastards for a good cause. People have been burnt alive, hung/drawn and quatered, fought nazis to the death, starved that overs may eat.... just another day in the world my friend, anonymous heroes ad heroines are right now being brutalized in all kinds of interesting ways, why don't we start religions about them seventy odd years after their deaths? Anyway any universe run in the manner christians/muslims etc believe is no universe I wannna exist in. I have to reject this stuff, else I'd be living in a world of shit. There is lots of shit in the world but at least its a vast enough place for lots of other stuff too, but if the cults are right... the world is small, shitty and ridiculous, and the wars of religious fanatics and there bombs and crusades and rightious genicedes are actually meaningful!

Qweeg
28-02-2004, 13:26:37
Originally posted by Chris
Qweegy old boy, this shows what I suspected, your completly ignorent of Christian faith, you have it all wrong.

The Christ died for mankind's sins doesn't mean everyone is absolved, it meant that all people, no matter their flaws, can find redemption and everlasting life in his kingdom if they accept him in their heart.

You equate the sins of man as being the fault of religion.

MAN commits evil, often in the name of religion, doesn't make religion evil. Only the foolish and the simpleminded fail to understand this.

And no, I'm not a religious fanatic, and I don't give a rat's ass if you burn or not.

About the movie, that's all it is, a movie.

You opinion is grounds for yet one more sect. I agree with what you think of the film tho, just a film.

Chris
28-02-2004, 15:07:57
I have no interest in changing your mind dude, told ya before, don't care if ya burn. :lol:

Shining1
02-03-2004, 04:41:45
A dangerously left-wing view, Chris:Beer:.

Qweeg
02-03-2004, 05:05:14
I am so bored by my behaviour with religious threads, purely because of my uncontrollable instinct to shoot religous beliefs down whenever I see em, I've become a fuckin zelot man... I need some kind of twelve-step program or something, need to learn to let these things pass, I no longer want this button so easily pushed.

So...

Repeat to self: I respect your right to an opinion *deep breath* even though you are a christian or muslim *and relax*

there.... that was *twitch* easy... *twitch, twitch*

I will leave this thread now, so that participants may continue their reasonable discussion about this no doubt important and significant film. I am unthreatened by this, I am able to walk away.

Mightytree
02-03-2004, 16:40:28
Great movie. Very powerful.

So much for it having nothing to attract non-believers.

Lady_of_Chicken
06-03-2004, 18:01:43
I've been reading that people are left feeling profoundly sad and they can't shake it.

I went to a medieval torture chamber museum once and it took a long time to recover from it--I felt completely stripped of all innocence. Don't think I'll ever fully recover that innocence.

So I have been asking those who have seen it...would you feel any differently if they had substituted this really good guy who didn't deserve such torture for Jesus.

Since the movie is fixated on the torture, how would it be different if it was just an ordinary decent human being going through this.

My point is, the Passion is integral to Christian faith...but the passion is Christ's love for us, not his torture.

So what comes across for those who have seen it?

Scabrous Birdseed
06-03-2004, 21:25:49
It's just going to be the twenty-minute execution scene from Braveheart stretched out over two hours isn't it? I was practically screaming "cut of his head already!" thoughout that.

RedFred
08-03-2004, 18:50:03
I don't think that I will go and see this movie.

Last film I remember stirring up this much religious controversy was The Last Temptation of Christ. I left that one feeling like I had been emotionally manipulated. In a bad way.