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Darkstar
06-01-2004, 18:28:00
I installed this on my work machine recently. I really do not like the default MS Outlook 2003 layout. Very wasteful of the screen layout, the 3 vert windowed layout. Ugho... Is there anything neat about this? I upgraded because I had the chance (had just backed up the system) and in the next few months, our desktop support is supposed to be forcing everyone to it. Best to do that sort of upgrade when you are in control...

zmama
06-01-2004, 18:34:55
Or is it better to let everyone else do it first? ;)

Darkstar
06-01-2004, 18:37:54
Our Desktop support will push out one stop shop configuration under SMS that will only work on about 40% of all the machines... and totalling out the other 60%. I'd rather get my machine migrated to the new software requirements when it's convinent to me... which was Monday as that was Monthly Back Up day for me. :) If I totalled my system, I wouldn't lose any data over rebuilding it. Just time spent. Don't have that same guarantee when the SMS push for it comes along...

QtFLW@Work
06-01-2004, 20:32:56
I've heard people mention that MS should be shot for Outlook 2k3, so I'm not surprised you dislike it, DS :)

Darkstar
06-01-2004, 20:33:57
I just remember Ash saying to was the greatest thing since curling...

Venom
06-01-2004, 20:44:11
He probably said it as Bill Gates was cornholing him.

Darkstar
06-01-2004, 20:47:59
It was the Spam filtering he was getting out of it... But since you can get a bayen plug in filter for free, I don't think that's enough to upgrade for...

Mobile Asher
06-01-2004, 22:15:54
The new layout is easier to read (for me). Studies have proven that items with shorter column width are easier to read (ie, newspaper columns). If you don't like the new default view, change to the oldschool one.

My dad originally hated it as well, but I made him use it for a month and now he prefers this one.

Office 2003 rules simply for OneNote. Kickass for laptop users in college. :p

Darkstar
06-01-2004, 22:26:19
I haven't put OneNote on yet. Been meaning to. Just to see it. MS has been bragging on it for a while. I wondered if it's even worth looking at though...

Asher
07-01-2004, 00:31:01
Have you used the search folders yet? Those are handy.

Darkstar
07-01-2004, 20:19:14
So far, Outlook 2003 is a serious piece of shit. It won't even consistantly run macros.

I look forward to upgrading it out of existance ASAP.

I do like the search folders, but that's the only thing any good about it.

And the "Short Vert" aspect bites horribly... as half the info I recieve scrolls horizontally. Short columns only work in basic text layouts... which does not include Outlooks own stationary. Nor most business correspondance.

ABSOLUTE GARBAGE! MAY THE OUTLOOK 2003 TEAM GET TRAPPED IN VENOM'S COLON FOR 10 YEARS!

I'm going on an Eudora hunt soon at work, I think.

Venom
07-01-2004, 20:30:19
Nothing can last in my colon for longer than 1 hr. Then it gets violently expelled.

johngalt
07-01-2004, 20:36:31
you must have a streamlined asshole if you are constantly violently expelling stuff from your colon.

So tell us the truth - who's really been cornholing you?

Venom
07-01-2004, 20:57:07
Just my hand.

Darkstar
07-01-2004, 22:46:14
I thought you just worked it out with a pencil?

Asher
07-01-2004, 23:26:15
<-- has no problems with Outlook 2003 on any of the computers he uses it on. PEBKAC.

johngalt
08-01-2004, 00:46:59
Nah, more likely a PICNIC

Venom
08-01-2004, 03:03:58
Originally posted by Darkstar
I thought you just worked it out with a pencil?

I'm no mathematician.

Funkodrom
08-01-2004, 13:52:17
You couldn't search individual folders before this version of Outlook?!!!

What the fuck? That's basic stuff, been in Notes for at least 6 years.

Asher
08-01-2004, 18:18:45
No, you could always search folders.

Search folders are virtual folders with conditions. IE: unread mail, mail from within the last week, mail from certain senders, mail with matching subject/body (including wildcards), etc. It doesn't physically move mail in these folders, and they can show up in multiple folders.

johngalt
08-01-2004, 21:01:30
I did hate one thing immediately though - I had to set all the views to *ungroup* - seems that every account I looked at showed the emails grouped. I hate grouping. I prefer individualistic expression.


That plus I like to look at the email in e order in which they were received, and since I regularly archive, I ave no need for grouping.

Nor group hugs.

Darkstar
08-01-2004, 22:51:33
So far, the only spam filtering I've found is filter by sender and by domain. Need to go digging to see what else there is, as I need filter by content.

The Search Folders are just presaved queries. You've always been able to search folders, files, combos, only this or that, etc, Funko.

Darkstar
08-01-2004, 22:53:28
Oh... I've now finally gotten around to installing OneNote. So far, I'm not impressed... looks nice and all, but I've had that sort of functionality in other information management tools. The one big plus of ON over them is just a nicer, newer, easier on the eyes UI. It's been way past time for MS to include such a note tool in their software packages.

Asher
08-01-2004, 23:51:46
What other information management tools?

As for spam filtering...it's really not that hard to find... "Junk E-Mail" is the first button in the first preferences tabin Options.

Funkodrom
13-01-2004, 14:06:38
Ah right. Never used Outlook. :beer:

Darkstar
14-01-2004, 04:16:29
Ash, I've tried tons. Currently use a few... Like KeyNotes, Personal Brain, and Streamliner to name a few.

All I've found in Outlook is: Add this email address to: Black List, White List; Add this domain to: Black List, White List.

No *CONTENT* Filtering. Just "Crank up filtering to high, ultra, and don't accept except from white list". Doing a search on FILTER, SPAM, and a few other choice words yields nothing but "Setting email to yes/no and domains to yes/no" in the help file.

It's an absolute piece of shit, and you need to have your head examined if you think it's actually good. Content and context filtering kicks the snot out of just email address based filtering and simple macros that say "Search for $$$ in body->Move to Junk Mail".

Asher
14-01-2004, 06:27:31
Darkstar, I'm sorry to say this but you're bring a moron.

Outlook's Spam filter uses bayesian filtering, and I told you how to activate it. It does examine the content of the post, it doesn't do simple filtering (that was the oldschool Outlooks).

Look up Bayesian algorithms, then shut yo trap woman.

Asher
14-01-2004, 06:29:57
KeyNotes, Personal Brain, and Streamliner are absolutely nothing like OneNote.

I have to question if you even have Office 2003?

Explain to me how KeyNotes, Personal Brain, and Streamliner compare to OneNote. Do this in terms of me, as a college students, taking notes in class (the main demographic for OneNote).

Darkstar
14-01-2004, 06:40:59
Do you even know what Personal Brain, KeyNotes or Streamliner is? I doubt it. Streamliner is only available on the Pocket PC. It doesn't run on anything but Windows CE environments. That's not something you have. PB is a very nice app, something I occasionally try to rally interest in around different places, but most people just don't comprehend how to use it.

The only difference between KeyNote and OneNote, Ash, is the GUI. Both are heirachial outliners that you put free text into. KeyNote has some nicer additional functionality, actually. OneNote has some simple cut and paste functionality via the GUI.

I have Office 2003. Hell, I've got every product MS wants developers to make more things for. They send them to me, as soon as they are in the latter stages of Alpha. I'm one of their 200,000 registered developers that they brag on whenever they say "Its in early testing now in over 200K sites!".

You are letting the FLASH of the GUI distract you from what it is. A simple outliner with a decent (stylus suitable) GUI.

And for your information, OneNote is not aimed at College Students. It's aimed at the Mobile Profesional (that's geeks with toys in meetings). As a meeting text entry tool, it's good for class. The average college kid generally cannot afford MS's products, they just pirate them. If you are so stuck on yourself that you don't believe it, I can go dig up the lead designer notes, the white papers, etc.

Outlook 2003 is the worst of the Outlook line. It screws up the macros, and has no easily reached, user adjustable content filtering. I liked the previous two versions of Outlook. But 2K3 sucks.

OneNote isn't impressive. As I said, it's got a nice GUI, but other then that, it's just a fairly primitive outliner. Literary Machine and Literary Pro are better outliner and note organizers, for instance. Personal Brain is an easier GUI for purely text noting and a better graphical organizer, etc etc etc. If you like OneNote, fantastic. But its not what the world in general or an experience note taker is going to call a "killer app".

Asher
14-01-2004, 07:03:19
Originally posted by Darkstar
Do you even know what Personal Brain, KeyNotes or Streamliner is? I doubt it. Streamliner is only available on the Pocket PC. It doesn't run on anything but Windows CE environments.
So clearly it is nothing like OneNote, which doesn't run on anything but Windows 2K and XP environments. Agreed?

The only difference between KeyNote and OneNote, Ash, is the GUI. Both are heirachial outliners that you put free text into. KeyNote has some nicer additional functionality, actually. OneNote has some simple cut and paste functionality via the GUI.
This told me nothing. Details.

KeyNote supports digital ink? I can take my pen and scribble around additional notes seamlessly into my typewritten notes? It has note flag systems so it keeps track of theorems, homework, definitions, etc. as I type them? It has an elegant and useful search function which highlights all tabs with occurances of the word/phrase, allows you to scroll through them, etc? It allows you to highlight any text or image or object or digital ink and just drag it to a new location? It supports Word-like user input including a robust list system? It allows you to record audio seamlessly and insert a little marker where you were on the page, and when you click on it the audio plays? It gives you instant access to dictionaries and thesauruses?

Outlook 2003 is the worst of the Outlook line. It screws up the macros
My macros run perfectly -- what Macros are you running, send me the affected files and I'll have a looksee.

and has no easily reached, user adjustable content filtering.
It's the first button in options enables junk mail filtering, over 98% accurate. I'm confused what you don't get.

OneNote isn't impressive. As I said, it's got a nice GUI, but other then that, it's just a fairly primitive outliner. Literary Machine and Literary Pro are better outliner and note organizers, for instance.
Perhaps you shouldn't let the "pretty GUI distract you" of OneNote, and actually use the systems like NoteFlags and how perfect the "search" system is for college students like me.

Darkstar
14-01-2004, 07:21:23
Clearly, you haven't a clue, Ash. Congrats! You clearly have no future in software design, as you are unable to grasp concepts like commonality, design, functionality. It seems you are distracted easily by the facade... as, by your logic, painting your car red makes it a new car.

Strangely, StreamLiner is remarkably like OneNote, despite the fact that it is a small application released for the Pocket PC OS. Congrats on talking completely cluelessly. I shall now grant to you your Drekkus award... :ninja:

You were the one ascerting that you knew that PB, StreamLiner, and KeyNote were nothing like OneNote, without knowing anything about them. OneNote is one of those apps Microsoft actually adopted from the Open Source world, dressed up it's functionality with a stylus suitable GUI, and released, just so Tablet buyers had something "special" to use with there new tablets. Great demo and trainer on what you can do with a stylus.

If you like it, fine, but it's not a killer app. Hell, it's not even a good advancement in the note taking/organize applications. Do you really think it would be a suitable tool for developing your a doctorate thesis in? How about tracking all notes for a 2 Million line, 956 module system?

If you like it for your note taking, fantastic. More power to you. But it is not the end all, be all, note taker/organizer. It's not very impressive at all. Is it better then Note Pad? Yes. Is it better then everything else? No. I rate it at a 4 out of 10.

How do you train Outlook's email filtering on content? I've been looking through it's online help, and there is no mention of doing that. Just "You can rescue mail that isn't junk by using this function". Well, how do I train it that something IS junk mail? No mention of that... just that you can turn on the email filter. Bah. Either the functionality isn't there, or the online help sucks. Could be either option...

Asher
14-01-2004, 07:28:40
I love how you avoided all of my questions and points.

FYI, I downloaded Personal Brain ages ago upon your recommendation and found it to be useless? I did a quick google search for the others, and it took me 10 seconds to realize what you have yet to realize in how long now?

A program that runs only on PocketPCs would only be compared to a program that runs only on Windows 2K/XP by someone desperately grasping at straws.

As for training Outlook's email filtering, right click on the email, Junk Mail -> Add To Blocked Senders list. Not only does this blacklist the address (kinda useless), it flags the message as junk for the bayesian algorithm toi learn from it. Similarly, if you choose Add To Safe Senders List, it does the converse.

Darkstar
14-01-2004, 08:00:10
Personal Brain (PB) is not useless. Most people, however, are, when just looking at PB. PB is a mind mapper/outline program that keeps focus on the current item of interest. Some people say that it's a graphical equivalent of Yahoo. It's a program that allows you to arrange notes/text/shortcuts/urls/files in both a hiearchial system as well as in a simple jump/reference system. And PB is, in fact, very similar to OneNote. A nice gui on a basic outliner. It's a great click stream mapper, good cheap flow diagramer (program, data, etc), etc etc etc.

Actually, comparing the Pocket PC app to your OneNote is EXTREMELY fitting. Where do you think INKing came from? Quit trying to poo-poo things you are clueless on. Pocket PC is the original test bed for most of the Tablet PC's inking, hand-writing recognition software, and stylus interface and functionality. I like the ability to use a stylus. That's one of the reasons I've been looking at Tablets since they were mentioned by MS over 2 years ago (3 now, I think). There are times it's a lot easier to go 'inking' versus using a mouse or keyboard. And yes, you can do many of those things in Streamliner. it doesn't have the Word spell checker, and the search functionality isn't as highly developed. Drop and drag are a little under developed in StreamLiner, compared to OneNote, at this time, but those functionality areas are being upgraded. And there are more feature rich outliners on the Pocket PC. I was just giving that as an example of the Outliner program family, along with the other different feature examples, KeyNote and Personal Brain.

Now, examine OneNote. Take away all the stylus capabilities. Guess what you are left with? An old Windows 95 note taking/organizing outliner. Seriously. Tabs, search, flags, etc. Lotus Agenda is one of many such applications that litter that road. Moving up to some less ancient software (something in the 98 to XP OSes), I'd point people at the freeware Literary Machine. Or the commercial product Literary Machine Pro. Outliners have a lot of functionality, Ash. Most are used to do more then just make outlines. OneNote is just an nice, modern outliner with a Microsoft Stylus Friendly hooked GUI. If its your favorite, as I said, that's cool for you. It's just not a killer app. Most people without a stylus/Tablet are just going to go : "Another sticky notes app. Bleah". Or "Another tabbed NotePad". Seriously. Probably in the same manner as you didn't find any use for PB. Speaking of which, I know plenty of PB college using students that claim it's the best note taking tool, ever. Its just all in what you like, Ash. Personal taste. Don't react as if its a personal affront to your ego that other people don't see OneNote as the super serious killer app of the century. I honestly don't think most people will. It's just another outliner with a nice GUI. Those are all a matter of personal taste. It's just that field.

Now, as for Outlook Junk Mail filtering... I don't WANT to block the sender of some of the junk mail I get at work. Nor do I want to just pass through most addresses. Is there anyway to train the bayesian database without involving the domain/addresses? That's what I've been digging for. But thanks for all the info so far... the online help entries I've found didn't mention that safe or blacklisting trained the bayesian filter.

Asher
14-01-2004, 08:31:09
If somebody is sending you spam, why the hell would you still want to get mail from them?

And comparing a PocketPC program to a Windows XP program is stupid -- they're not in the same market.

I don't own a PocketPC -- in fact, PocketPC sales fall every year. If there are other programs that does what OneNote does on another platform, it's completely irrelevant.

Darkstar
14-01-2004, 08:58:55
Well, Ash, you see, when you work for a living, you often get daily spam from people that occasionally send out useful things as well. Or at least, important mailings, so you cannot black list them outright. Bosses, for instance, are very bad at sending out excess spam work emails... but you don't want to BLACK LIST your boss's email address. Same for their boss's secretary... Then you might have daily status reports sent to your email box, for example. You'd only be interested in the status report if it contained some exception that your department or section needs to address.

Then there are mailing lists. I'm on a security mailing list for work. I don't care a whit for any UNIX or LINUX vulnerabilities, so those can go straight to the Junk folder. I don't care if Norton or Panda or McAffee release a new definition to catch a particular virus. But, I still want to get all the ISS, Terminal Server, Cisco, Front Page, IE, etc vulnerabilities.

In all these cases, you want purely content filtering... not white or black listed addressing.

And again, you are incorrect. What was done on other platforms are very important. In software, features and functionality tend to bleed across the platform barriers. Data streams and data files are often shared. But it sounds to me like you are making a Roland style "Whopsie, I see I was wrong, time to change the subject." Are you his padiwan, now? ;)

I don't know if PocketPC sales are down... I haven't paid attention lately to their figures. Last I heard, general sales for the overall market (smart hand held devices) is up. I know that Palm is down. It's platform has been losing share since Pocket PCs were released. Last time I bothered to look at the quarterly figures, enhanced phones were on the upswing though, and that seemed like it was cutting into Pocket PC market share. What does their share have to do with anything? That seems like a red herring. Its not that I expect you to know everything that runs on Microsoft, Ash. It was just an example. You were the one taking the straw man stand on your own. Comparing software across platforms is not stupid. Comparing software across markets is not stupid. Users don't tend to understand the subtle differences between markets or platforms. You, as a user, not a marketeer, was saying OneNote is unique. It's not. Hell, there are outliners that share their data files between Windows 2000/XP and Windows CE... and contain the same rich functionality. A few of those certain share 90% or more features with OneNote... just a different arrangement of how they get the job down, of how you access the functionality through the GUI . I don't run any at this time, but I could dig them up. Once again, Ash, you are falling down from not knowing anything about this particular subject (Outliners).

OneNote isn't new. It isn't remarkable. If my Outliner site wasn't down for maintenance right now, I could mine it for a couple of MS-DOS 4 examples that do what OneNote does... minus the handwriting on screen... Well, one would but you would need their digital stylus to do that, and I doubt any of those still work.

It's nice Outliner, Ash. If it gets your motor running, hurray for you. But trying to impose Ash's world on reality isn't going to change the fact that it isn't the ultimate killer app of note taking, nor that it isn't an original app.

Asher
14-01-2004, 09:06:51
You write way too much. Learn to be less verbose and more terse. Like this.

Problem: I never said OneNote was unique. I said it was different from the programs you mentioned, which it undoubtedly is very different from. One isn't even in the same market, and the other two just aren't real note takers and are more organizers and outliners. Boggles the mind why you don't know the difference.

Reality is, Darkstar, your posts are too long. It also is, that OneNote does the job perfectly well, despite your dangerously stupid tangents about programs for PocketPCs and useless gadgets like Personal Brain.

OneNote is:
1) Very easy to take notes with
2) Very easy to search notes with
3) Very easy to condense notes with
4) Very easy to flag important information for easy retrieval later
5) Very easy to integrat audio data into the document seamlessly
6) Very easy to integrat digital ink into the document seamlessly

I'm well aware other apps can do bits and pieces of the above. Find me a Windows 2K/XP app that does all of the above, and link me to it.

Otherwise, quit your spamming.

Darkstar
14-01-2004, 09:20:09
Here's several examples:

On a Tablet PC:
* Literary Machine Pro.
* Personal Brain
* KeyNote

Off the top of my head.
On my Windows 2K Pro, I can *RUN* Windows CE programs, and currently I have:
* Streamliner

Go suck on Hello Kitty's panties. You are clueless about Outliners. Most of your "points" (the easy to...) are just knowing the tools. Integration of digital ink you get on most Tablet Friendly or Ink Hooked/Enabled apps.

As I've said, OneNote is not a killer app. It's not new. Not one feature in it, that I am aware of. Not even when we narrow the field to your choosen target, Windows XP OS (and that's just for your benefit, and noone else). If you think its all that and a box of cherios, then great for you. But you should just give up the ghost on this, Ash, because you are truly either so shallow brained you cannot recognize functionality, or you know you've lost and you are just trying to salve your ego.

And this forum lives on spam. Calling for an end to spam is your running up the white flag. So I'll accept your surrender.

So, what have we learned? Outlook 2K3 sucks... MS didn't use its anti-spamming feature in house. Or Ash and I have not yet learned the secret to content filtering ONLY.

Oh, and Ash is so in love with his OneNote, that his SO is risking his life if he accidentally deletes it. Anything else, class? ;)

Asher
14-01-2004, 09:27:12
I'm honestly taken aback by your sudden stupidity.

Your fundamental problem is classifying OneNote as an "Outliner" and then comparing it with completely different programs.

OneNote is a hybrid of Word and Outlook with easier notetaking. In fact, it integrates with Outlook for things such as tasks.

What we have learned here is Darkstar types really long posts that are filled with meaningless horseshit.

He spends 30 seconds with a program (I've been using Outlook 2003 and OneNote daily, extensively, since September) and makes a judgement and suggests other programs, none of which are a substitute.

I think my computer ego is bigger than yours on this, and it trumps your inexperienced stupidity.

You also construct ridiculous scenerios that I doubt you've really encountered.

Example: copy and paste the spam mail you got from an address you want to keep mail from in the future. I will test it to see if it really fails the spam filter.

Example2: Send me the macros you insist don't work in Outlook 2003.

Darkstar
14-01-2004, 09:55:14
Actually, it's not, Ash. It just an enhanced Word XP. Seriously, In Word XP, you could do most of the functionality in OneNote. Other then the tabs and inking features. However, as a top Tab is actually a just files, that you can do... And you can do subpages, etc with simple sections and hypertext links. You'd be surprised at what you can do in searches in Word... I have always been. But then, NASA pays serious bucks to people I work with to do that sort of thing in macros.

It's not a sudden judgement on OneNote. Now, Outlook 2K3, that is. Cause it pissed me off... I don't like Outlook 2K3. OneNote, on a desktop without a stylus, is not an exceptional program, Ash. It's an outliner with a sticky notes GUI. That's the Lead Developer's summary. If you got a Universal MSDN subscription, let me know, and I'll PM you the URL for the designer notes for your perusal. You want to ARGUE with the Lead Developer, hey, it's your money. He'll just black list your email address... ;)

And "Since September" is nothing. OneNote's been available on the MSDN circuit since last February, Ash. Not a lot of interest in it on Developer circuit, because it's just an outliner or sticky note app... most Devs have their own favorites for those already... and without a stylus, it's all the same.

Your ego is big, but it is preventing your brain from processing information on this. It's not newbie stupidity on my part either. Not with OneNote.

I've said it repeatily... if you love it, great for you. But most people are just going to scratch their head over it. Not because it's a piece of shit, but because they already have their note taking apps.

I do think your computer stupidity is too big to recognize this, Ash. I love Note Takers, Note Organizers, and Note Database Apps. I play with the most useless ones for months, just to make sure it got a good tryout, and playing with its features. I'm always looking for the truly killer note taker, note organizer, and note database. OneNote is a nice piece of work, Ash. But for what I do, for what I need, it isn't the end all, be all, killer Note app. It's just a nice, Microsoft GUI on a multi-file outliner. I've got other apps that do things better, or are more suited to a primary keyboard environment. For some of my purposes, a small, simple text outliner is actually best. For some of my purposes, a multi-file note tracker. It just depends on what I need to accomplish my goal.

In 5 years, Ash, I doubt OneNote will be that one app you just have to have, to make life easier on you as a computer user. I say that based on experience with other apps similar to it... people's needs change. If it meets your needs, fan-freaking-tastic. Enjoy it, and more power to you. But I do not think it will continue to do so as your informational needs change. There will be better things down the road that will meet your needs then. Unless you are married to OneNote, I think you'll migrate to those applications.

That's experience... with software, and note tools.

Darkstar
14-01-2004, 10:05:03
You think my filtering on content only is NOT A REAL WORLD examples?

So far, any and all. It just doesn't run the macros, reliably. It seems related to LAN connection to an Exchange Server. I saw some similar problems with Outlook XP. However, the same macros on my home installation would always work. The difference being... home installation goes against my personal email account, which is POP, not Exchange.

You want an example? Hell, I'll give you the full deal that I *want* to run...
http://spambayes.sourceforge.net/
That allows for purely content filtering. ;)

Hey... what's an easy way to get rules to text? I haven't done it enough to remember that.

Darkstar
14-01-2004, 19:07:45
Oh, this is wonderful.

I went to black list a person spamming the contract with job abvertising, and got told by Outlook 2K3 "Error! Impossible! This person is at the same domain as you and therefore is part of your organization! You are not allowed to black list anyone part of your own organization!" :lol: ! Way to go MS Outlook Spam Filter Developers! Talk about no serious design! If the Exchange spam filters WORK for a corporation, then that corporation's users primarily source of spam will be from other members of their own organization! :lol:

Sean
14-01-2004, 19:21:27
Originally posted by Asher
Example2: Send me the macros you insist don't work in Outlook 2003.
Originally posted by Darkstar
So far, any and all. It just doesn't run the macros, reliably. It seems related to LAN connection to an Exchange Server. I saw some similar problems with Outlook XP. However, the same macros on my home installation would always work. The difference being... home installation goes against my personal email account, which is POP, not Exchange.
Like Asher has been saying. Instead of writing all that, why not just send him the macros? What’s the point in you just repeating what you’ve said, when he’s clearly asked for a definite example?

MDA
14-01-2004, 19:32:04
Originally posted by Asher
Reality is, Darkstar, your posts are too long.

Originally posted by Darkstar
this forum lives on spam.

Buried treasure. :lol:

Darkstar
14-01-2004, 20:17:05
Gee, Sean, I was asking him how to post them. Or PM them to him. I'm not particularly interested in sending him my complete rule set. He just needs ONE, not the whole kit and caboodle. And so far, my experiments with exporting have resulted in a mixed binary and text file, which length is longer then PM limits.

As I said, they work fine at home, against a POP server via dial up or cable modem's LAN, but have trouble via work's LAN against an Exchange server. As I noted, a problem that also occured under Outlook XP on occasion using the same LAN and Exchange server. Might be time to just go hit the Knowledge base. Or waste some Microsoft developer's time... trouble with Office is supported for unlimited number of incidents a year, after all. Humm...

johngalt
16-01-2004, 02:56:54
this has turned into little more than a pissing contest.

fuck - if DS doesn't lke ON, woh the fuck cares???

Darkstar
16-01-2004, 07:58:38
OneNote is ok (it has a nice GUI). I just am not in love with it. Its no biggie. Ash swears by it. It's just what you need, and what you like to use.

Asher
16-01-2004, 08:11:29
OneNote. :beer:

http://members.shaw.ca/asher19/onenote.png

Funkodrom
16-01-2004, 10:46:05
What's wrong with a note pad and a bunch of different coloured pens.


Not that I had different coloured pens or anything girly like that...

:nervous:

QtFLW@Work
16-01-2004, 16:13:11
You borrow KG's, right?

Darkstar
27-01-2004, 08:26:19
Note: Word 2003 Sucks BIG TIME!

Main reason: When you hit Control+V to insert some text you have already Control+C (Copy to you true MS n00bs), it paste in a copy of the SCREEN, rather then the text on the clipboard. The programmer that did that sure was mad at M$. To paste text from the clipboard into a Word document, you have to use the Context Menu! Really slows down those of use who are love to use Copy+Paste.

MDA
27-01-2004, 19:05:56
Ack, Ctrl-c/x, Ctrl-v are hard wired reflex actions for me. It'll take forever to unlearn that.

zmama
27-01-2004, 19:15:17
A damn good reason not to upgrade, for me. That and being too cheap and lazy :D

Asher
27-01-2004, 19:27:37
Originally posted by Darkstar
Note: Word 2003 Sucks BIG TIME!

Main reason: When you hit Control+V to insert some text you have already Control+C (Copy to you true MS n00bs), it paste in a copy of the SCREEN, rather then the text on the clipboard. The programmer that did that sure was mad at M$. To paste text from the clipboard into a Word document, you have to use the Context Menu! Really slows down those of use who are love to use Copy+Paste.
Just what the hell are you doing?

Ctrl-V works to paste text, just like it always does.

Once again, PEBKAC.

You really think the 600,000 beta testers for MS Office 2003 would miss a "bug" where Ctrl-V will paste a screenshot rather than text?

If you copied an image, and paste, it'll paste the image.
If you copied text, and paste, it'll paste the text.
If you copied an Excel graph, and paste, it'll paste the graph.
If you copied a table, and paste, it'll paste the table.
If you copied a webpage, and paste, it'll paste the Word-formatted equivalent of the HTML.

QtFLW@Work
27-01-2004, 20:09:08
I was going to say, "don't forget, this is Darkstar's PC we're talking about here".

:D

zmama
27-01-2004, 20:21:34
Yes, I did forget for a moment :o

But isn't it amazing how a tiny bit of criticism brings out the Micro$oft Cavalry? ;)

Lurker
27-01-2004, 20:50:57
Speaking of Office 2003, what is the "Image Writer" that is set as my default printer in Word? Pisses me off, although I'm sure I can change the default to the proper thing.

Darkstar
27-01-2004, 21:17:29
Hey Ash, which FLAVOR of 2K3 are you running? I've got Enterprise. You know, the FLAGSHIP. It's screwed to all hell. You can watch in the Office Clipboard viewer run out and do a screen capture when Control+V is pressed. And fill up all empty Office Clipboard slots with a bitmap of the screen, which is what it then pastes into the Word document.

Office 2K3 is fried. DEEP fried. Microsoft ADMITS it. That's why they are releasing Service Pack 1 for it "early". You know, with zero serious security fixes included in it that hasn't been released for Office 2K3. Incidentally, M$ admits that the deep problems in O2K3 isn't a serious problem to their Office profits, because historically 95% of their corporate customers will not upgrade to O2K3 until after the first Service Pack is released and tested by the early adopters.

And the problem, according to Microsoft, is due to the fact that I have the full package of Office... Word doesn't know what format to use when commanded to paste. Too many format possibilities, so it ends up defaulting (as Word is the copied source of text) to the highest, most detailed format available, which is Screen Capture. Bad choice on their part. Microsoft reports that other configurations of Office also known to exhibit the problem, when installed with "Full" options and "Extras".

Next time you want to open your mouth, little Gatewick, first climb further up Gate's ass and see what Gates and his company already know, and have fully documented. And yes, this problem "breezed" right through testing, because Microsoft changed the default "Enterprise" configuration after their testing, but before making the "gold" for manu. Basic corporate behavior that happens everywhere in business.

If you only have Word, Excel, PowerPoint, and OneNote, Word is supposed to be safe at copy and paste. And Access shouldn't upset it. But add in FrontPage, Publisher, InfoPath, and a few other extras, and Office is deep, deep fried. Whee! Way to go! Maybe MS can help NASA develop and test the next set of rovers to Mars?

Asher
27-01-2004, 21:28:45
I have Enterprise as well. Installed on 5 computers, no problems at all like you mentioned.

As for MS "admitting" Office 2K3 is fried, quite the opposite -- they, and the media, both say this is the best version of Office out with the least amount of bugs thanks to the unprecedented scale of the beta test.

SP1 is coming out within a month or so of the regular schedule for a SP release for Office.

Your computer is fucked, Darkstar. PEBKAC.

Asher
27-01-2004, 21:33:08
I also call BS on virtually that whole post. Since I have the identical version, and none of those problems can be replicated on any 5 of my systems. Clearly, you've fucked something up.

I find it somewhat amusing that most users can work MS Word fine, but Darkstar has incredible difficulty. ;)

Screenshot of the installed programs from Office 2K3 for you...

Darkstar
27-01-2004, 21:45:13
Call what you want, but go hit the MSDN area, and do a search on Word 2003. First thing that pops up.

Microsoft has two flavors of press on O2K3. Flavor one is the sweet one... most secure version they've made, least amount of bugs reported, only minor issues known, etc.

Flavor two gets less press, but it still gets covered. It's the most "delicate" installation ever, and fried under many standard configs.

Did you do a step up or straight out new install on the 5 systems? Are you running W2K Pro, Server, or XP Pro or Server?

I'll end up rebuilding this machine (work) soon enough. There's a forced network dispatched upgrade from W2K to XP, and this is a local install station so it will have to be rebuild locally with XP to stay in step with network requirements. Then I'll end up doing a fresh install of O2K3 Enterprise down on this system (as that is what all Office is supposed to be at), and I'll get to see if that one is just as fried as the current one. It's a different config so that might behave differently. However, the machine is fine, and the W2K Pro on it is itself a new install... just build back in Sept or Oct, IIRC, and with very little installed to the box. Other then Enterprise Office XP...

Asher
27-01-2004, 21:47:56
3 of them were upgrades from Office XP, 2 were fresh installs.

3 of them use Windows XP Pro, 1 uses Windows XP Home, and 1 uses Windows 2K Pro.

Darkstar
27-01-2004, 21:48:15
THAT'S not a clean install that you posted a screen shot of, Ash. Photo Editor hasn't been distributed with Office since Office 2000. Humm...

Darkstar
27-01-2004, 21:49:58
Yep. Definately a 2000, XP, and 2003 Office Tools menu being shown.

Asher
27-01-2004, 21:51:32
No, the screenshot was an XP -> 2003 update.

That's on my IBM ThinkPad T40, I installed Office XP about 2 months before 2003 came out.

Darkstar
27-01-2004, 21:53:03
I wonder if your fresh are really fresh? Could just be a registry setting that my 2K3 Word needs.

What's funny is that Word, as my Email draft option, works fine on Copy/Paste. It's only when Word is the dominant (invoked outright) that it has the problem. So there is something different happening in Copy/Paste between the in-place OLE and the normal app. Humm...

Asher
27-01-2004, 21:53:52
They're really fresh.

The Win2K computer had Corel Office on it before, the WinXP Home computer is a brand new computer I built for the BF for Christmas.

Funkodrom
27-01-2004, 21:54:01
Fuck me what a load of junk!

Darkstar
27-01-2004, 21:56:52
Has to have come with 2000 then, Ash. MS Photo Editor is only available through Office 2000 Installation package. It's not included in the Office XP, as Microsoft wanted people to use a different product for photo manips. I like Photo Editor because it was easy to crop pics in, compared to some of my other graphic tools.

We've had to go digging through our CD archives here to find the Office 2K CDs, because some of my cowies only know it, paint brush, and Image Composer for making and editing their web graphics.

Asher
27-01-2004, 21:59:08
Well, I'm sorry but you're mistaken.

My laptop never had Office 2000, ever, installed on it. I got it in August 2003, installed Office XP, then upgraded to Office 2003.

Simple as that.

Darkstar
27-01-2004, 22:01:56
Funko... of course it is. Darkstar and Ashur, in a Microsoft thread? Please!

Well, Ash, it could be something else on my work box that is messing around with 2K3. But I'm still blaming Microsoft until I see their stuff work for me on this basic system. And there's plenty of reports with Microsoft from other customers that feel/experience the same. I wonder if O2K3 is really just that delicate? I've seen Microsoft tools in the past that could take up to 7 installs (including older Office and Visual C++ packages) before everything worked right. And that's on fresh system, just out of the box.

Maybe I should try a repair? Wonder if it would do any good? Humm...

Asher
27-01-2004, 22:03:20
My desktop has a fresh install.

Funkodrom
27-01-2004, 22:05:24
I meant what a load of junk programs get installed.

Asher
27-01-2004, 22:06:48
The laptop (XP Pro, Office XP -> 2003) has VS.Net 2002 and 2003 Enterprise installed.

The desktop (XP Pro, Office 2003 fresh) has a fresh install of VS.NET 2003 Enterprise on it.

The other 3 systems don't have any VS software on it.

Just incase we were going to blame VS or something. ;)

Darkstar
27-01-2004, 22:07:07
If you say so Ash. Where did you get that Photo Editor and other Office 2000 Tool install items? Because Photo Editor is last available on the Office 2000 package. Both CDs and DVD editions. I've had to search for it often enough. Would have saved my team 3 days if it was on any of the XP builds that we have. And I do not recall it ever being added in.

Humm... Lets see what the MSDN Index says? BRB...

Asher
27-01-2004, 22:07:43
Originally posted by Funkodrom
I meant what a load of junk programs get installed.
We're using the 5-CD Enterprise version of Office 2K3. The "Standard" version is one CD.

Even then, you choose which programs to install. I actually use most of those programs fairly regularly for school.

Asher
27-01-2004, 22:08:36
Originally posted by Darkstar
If you say so Ash. Where did you get that Photo Editor and other Office 2000 Tool install items? Because Photo Editor is last available on the Office 2000 package. Both CDs and DVD editions. I've had to search for it often enough. Would have saved my team 3 days if it was on any of the XP builds that we have. And I do not recall it ever being added in.

Humm... Lets see what the MSDN Index says? BRB...
It installed it with my copy of Office XP Pro w/ Frontpage.

Darkstar
27-01-2004, 22:09:20
Frankly, I rarely use them at the moment (other then Outlook). But that should change soon as NASA gets it's direction reset. Then back to lots of Excel, Powerpoint, Word, and occasional Access at a minimum...

Funkodrom
27-01-2004, 22:10:37
Not only do I occasionally have to use word but our boss wants me to start using project. :cry:

Asher
27-01-2004, 22:12:51
Project is great.

We've used it a couple years now at school for the software engineering projects for group organization.

Darkstar
27-01-2004, 22:13:57
First search... nope. No such product available after 2000. Doing a index on Office XP with Front Page to see what is listed as on that package now.

5 seperate English editions for that package....

Funkodrom
27-01-2004, 22:18:06
Originally posted by Asher
Project is great.

We've used it a couple years now at school for the software engineering projects for group organization.

Yeah it's great when he gives me the print outs from it. :)

Darkstar
27-01-2004, 22:19:35
Not listed in the contents/manifest for that. Was that the latest (Oct 2003) release you used?

And it's all one DVD to me, Ash. Way of the near future... DVD-Rom.

NASA used to have a serious hard on for Project, but they've gotten into Fast Track. So about half of all NASA and Contractors still have there data in Project, and the other half have it in Fast Track. Makes for interesting exchanges of scheduling, as Project and Fast Track cannot read each others formatting.

Asher
27-01-2004, 22:19:52
Originally posted by Darkstar
First search... nope. No such product available after 2000. Doing a index on Office XP with Front Page to see what is listed as on that package now.

5 seperate English editions for that package....
I'm telling you, it installed with Office XP Pro w/ Frontpage.

There is no way I would install Office 2000 on a laptop I obtained in August 2003, only then to install Office XP and then Office 2003 within a couple months. :)

Asher
27-01-2004, 22:20:36
Originally posted by Darkstar
Not listed in the contents/manifest for that. Was that the latest (Oct 2003) release you used?
It's an ISO from when it first came out.

Darkstar
27-01-2004, 22:26:16
ISO for Office? Ah. Those, I don't have. And they aren't listed in the MSDN index. Windows installs are, but not the Office. Humm... I wonder if the MSDN Online or Download site has a packing index of those ISOs?

Asher
27-01-2004, 22:28:47
I don't think you understand. It's an ISO of the retail "Office XP Pro w/ Frontpage". ;)

Darkstar
27-01-2004, 22:29:42
From back in May 01?

Asher
27-01-2004, 22:31:23
If that's when it was released, yes.

This is an ISO from the very first release, as soon as it was available.

Darkstar
27-01-2004, 22:32:53
CD image, jah? Not the folder/install package as distributed by Microsoft on the MSDN, but ISOs that you burn to CD, jah? Like the Windows XP Server ISO...

Otherwise, Microsofts documention for what is and isn't in a package states that Photo Editor available in Office 2000, but it isn't listed under 2K3. Of course, their documentation is known to have serious "lapses" from time to time. :)

Funkodrom
27-01-2004, 22:33:25
I got photo editor with word 2000.

Debaser
27-01-2004, 22:34:06
jah?

Lazarus and the Gimp
27-01-2004, 22:34:21
Thread summary? In words I'll understand?

Asher
27-01-2004, 22:35:30
Originally posted by Darkstar
CD image, jah? Not the folder/install package as distributed by Microsoft on the MSDN, but ISOs that you burn to CD, jah? Like the Windows XP Server ISO...

Otherwise, Microsofts documention for what is and isn't in a package states that Photo Editor available in Office 2000, but it isn't listed under 2K3. Of course, their documentation is known to have serious "lapses" from time to time. :)
I'm not an MSDN subscriber.

And yes, Darkstar, ISOs are CD images. ;)

Funkodrom
27-01-2004, 22:36:53
Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
Thread summary? In words I'll understand?

Something doesn't work
Yes it does
No it doesn't
Yes it does
No it doesn't
Yes it does
No it doesn't
Yes it does
No it doesn't
Yes it does
No it doesn't
Yes it does
No it doesn't
Yes it does
No it doesn't
Yes it does

Darkstar
27-01-2004, 22:38:40
Then it is May 01. There's 2 service packs after that, as well as some miscellenaous updates for Office XP.

Office XP itself went through 5 editions from Microsoft, as they updated various bits of it. And that covers the 2 service packs as well as further "enhancements".

Humm. Considering how poor M$'s documentation is at times, it could be that Photo Editor might have been a bonus on the original release, since it had previously been featured in the previous edition, and then dropped later. I used to think it was included on the XP, but like I said... 3 days of installing and crawling through manifests and cabs on all flavors of Office XP with Frontpage tends to make you remember that it isn't there... But I don't recall that we had *original* release CDs... we had updated releases (SP1+). Humm...

Debaser
27-01-2004, 22:40:15
Why not just admit you're mistaken? It's quite obvious you are.

[edit: or did you just do that? Hmm, I knew I shouldn't have posted]

Darkstar
27-01-2004, 22:43:56
"Darkstar, you are a fucktard. It's perfect for me, therefore you must have screwed it up!"

"I just let it go default!"

"Fucktard"

"Well, yeah. But that's got nothing to do with this!"

Laz, your summary: O2K3 is being very naughty on my config. It's being well behaved for Ash. Ash has put forward the idea that O2K3 works for most people, and I'm just a special ed user. Which may indeed be true, but that doesn't change that O2K3 is still fried for me and others. ;)

ISO... whenever I see this, I think: Internation Standards Org... and tag in 9000/9001 because we see that about 12 times a day (seriously), and that's all it means. My brain has a difficult time remembering there's something other then stupid documentation for that letter set out there. ;)

Funkodrom
27-01-2004, 22:45:54
"It works for me therefore it must work for you" is the number one completely useless and wrong answer from helpdesks.

I use it all the time when I'm doing support.

Asher
27-01-2004, 22:47:26
Originally posted by Darkstar

ISO... whenever I see this, I think: Internation Standards Org... and tag in 9000/9001 because we see that about 12 times a day (seriously), and that's all it means. My brain has a difficult time remembering there's something other then stupid documentation for that letter set out there. ;)
ISO does stand for International Standards Organization.

.ISO files are ISO 9660.

Funkodrom
27-01-2004, 22:51:42
ISO 9000 and 9001 are management bullshit things I think.

Darkstar
27-01-2004, 22:51:44
Well, that explains why it's CALLED an ISO. I thought it might be something silly like "Image Standard Organization". But most of us bit pushers out here are brain locked on 9001, as that's the hottest thing in NASA priorities for the past 5 years. (Getting/Being/Upgrading To). So other ISO standards tend to be called different things out here... Otherwise, people might leap over cube walls, and choke the speaker to death.

Japher
27-01-2004, 22:53:43
ISO 9000 and 9001 and another number are quality control systems.

MDA
27-01-2004, 22:53:47
Funko: You can't be doing support. All support comes from India.

Funkodrom
27-01-2004, 22:58:18
Would you like any popadoms?

Darkstar
27-01-2004, 22:58:26
Originally posted by Funkodrom
ISO 9000 and 9001 are management bullshit things I think.

:lol: Everything is management bullshit things!

9000/1 caught on, because they are standard ways of DOCUMENTING how your business processes are supposed to work. Not how they work in reality, but how they are supposed to work.

Going 9000/1 was found to be helpful to management in discovering what it was that their business and its various bits were supposed to do. Useful in cutting dead wood departments, thinning out the fat, etc.

The US Government requires all it's mid sized businesses+ that want to be contractors to be ISO 9000/1 compliant. And requires much of its own departments and agencies to be compliant as well.

Maintianing 9000/1 compliancy adds more paperwork, more outside auditing from new contractors, more contractors to help you prepare for the audits, more contractors to help you stay on track in between audits, and in general decreases your productivity as people have to document in more places what they did for the minute/hour/day/week/year. So all the outside contract analysis firms, which make big money off the auditing and preparing, always tell their clients that they need to buy into ISO 9000/1. Job security for them... future outsourcing for you, because you cannot get done what you used to. But other contractors (with business branches in India) will point out that by outsourcing 95% of your business functionality, you can cut back on your labor and auditing costs at the same time, doubling up your gains, as your ISO 9001 process becomes "Give it to the subcontractor/outsourced".

Funkodrom
27-01-2004, 23:00:47
That's the most longwinded version of "Yes it's management bullshit" I've read.

Darkstar
27-01-2004, 23:02:04
MDA... didn't you see? India is becoming to expensive for outsourcing. And customers are unhappy with the level of support provided. So those wanting high quality support are shifting back to the States, and those wanting cheap support are moving to Pakistan and other "developing" countries where they only have to pay the workers 5 pennies a day.

Darkstar
27-01-2004, 23:03:36
But I summarized it for you at the top! I just went into a futher detail underneath that, as I have been feeling very "Dilbert".

Greg W
28-01-2004, 10:18:21
LMAO, this so reminds me of the problems running SMAC when it first came out. :lol:

Funkodrom
28-01-2004, 10:24:13
Ran fine for me. You must have done it wrong.

Lurker
28-01-2004, 14:10:28
Thank you twats for answering my question.

Twats.

MDA
28-01-2004, 19:15:24
Originally posted by Darkstar
MDA... didn't you see? India is becoming to expensive for outsourcing. And customers are unhappy with the level of support provided. So those wanting high quality support are shifting back to the States, and those wanting cheap support are moving to Pakistan and other "developing" countries where they only have to pay the workers 5 pennies a day.

Didn't see. I rely on you all to tell me that kind of stuff.
Sounds just ridiculous enough that I believe you're not pulling my leg.