View Full Version : FBI is pressuring the FCC to expand wiretapping requirements to include VOIP

29-07-2003, 21:36:11

The FCC gets to decide what the requirements are for any telecommunications equipment have to meet to be legal in the USA. As a consequence, they are the agency tasked by Congress to make sure that all Law Enforcement can listen into any conversation (wiretap) in the USA.

Why the FBI wants really wants:

The FBI is claiming that the only way it can wiretap into VOIP (Voice Over IP) is, get this cause this is the important part, if all data streams EVERYWHERE go through the FBI's servers.

Surprise! It's an end run around Congress's resistance to the Total Information Awareness (Biggest Brother watching you, and sharing it with everyone that wants to look)!

Oh, the FBI does not OUTRIGHT saw that... they say they just want the full data pipe to go through central servers that they can go and tap, in real time. However, since over half of VOIP act just like P2P (you connect directly to the person you want to talk to), the only way for the FBI to listen into those conversations is to have you access point (your ISP) route all their traffic through FBI servers. And if you read what the FBI says, this is the suggestion to meet that situation.

All Data. Everywhere.

As you can expect, all of Law Enforcement, and all our Spying related agencies and people, are 10000000000000000% behind this.

What you wouldn't expect, is that about half of the broadband ISPs in the USA are also behind this. Why? Well, it's to keep DSL services classified under TELEPHONE laws, this keeping the Baby Bells from being able to charge the DSL providers whatever they want to use their (Bell) network.

Oh... for you paranoid types. "How do I keep Big Brother from snooping on my activities?" Answer... get PCS Sprint, and use the digital services. Email, data, etc. FBI can only listen into the voice side of exchanges on the PCS Sprint. They list this as a reason they need "everything". So they can watch them islamic terrorists what is going to hijack a load of manure and drive it into the White House. (Another example given...)

29-07-2003, 21:42:08
FCC - flight connections centre at Heathrow?

29-07-2003, 21:46:19
Own Goal.

Federal Communications Commision (You can check http://www.fcc.gov/ for correct spelling.)

29-07-2003, 21:51:19
Not the flight connections centre then?

29-07-2003, 21:55:40
Own goal.

How embarassing is it to be own goaled by me? That has to be just one step below being own goaled by Drekkus.

29-07-2003, 22:09:47

Just about :lol:

Sir Penguin
29-07-2003, 23:00:44
Massive backbone upgrades! W00T!


Qaj the Fuzzy Love Worm
29-07-2003, 23:43:56
Great! Now all you need is some script kiddie to DDoS the FBI data hub, and the Internet will be screwed for All Time :) Well, here in the U.S. anyway. The rest of the world will be chugging along quite nicely, thank you very much :)

No longer Trippin
30-07-2003, 03:57:37
Don't they have the fucking NSA doing that already. What can't the damned FBI and NSA get a fucking long. I'd take away funding as punishment, but I don't get a say where the hell my tacs dollars go. They nee dto kneel in the vorner

30-07-2003, 04:01:28
FBI is not allowed to the full data that the NSA is.

And they want to take over all data inspection. Empire fight...

No longer Trippin
30-07-2003, 04:29:50
the nsa takes enough damned money being bigger than bother the cia and fbi... what is homeland security for.. i though to falunt all those rules and get around them/?

30-07-2003, 04:31:08
They aren't using the same database and same computer networks yet.

Besides, whoever controls the data is the Big Dawg. And the FBI wants to be Big Dawg.

No longer Trippin
30-07-2003, 04:42:13
wouldn't just getting them all surgery to correct there problem of being small dicked weasels be cheeper?

30-07-2003, 04:45:42
It's brain transplants they are in need of...

No longer Trippin
30-07-2003, 04:51:37
Shouldnt we start with the president then?

30-07-2003, 05:00:46
Fine by me...

30-07-2003, 06:12:35
Heeyy.... Carefull with those brain transplants. if you put another one in there it will be very lonely..

30-07-2003, 18:35:28
Chagarra, :lol:

The danger with this, if the FBI is successful in getting the FCC to agree, and actually get the system up and running (I have serious doubts they could, but it would certainly fuck up my and other US users net speeds...), is that if they get such a system running, other governments will certainly follow. Any governments interested in controlling all form of its citizens or subjects digital data access... Certainly most of the totalitarian type governments (China, Iran, Saudia Arabia, etc) but even the "Free" nations of the world could justify such a system in the interest of national and internal security... After all, terrorists are a danger to all, as are other violent prone madmen (and madwomen), pedophiles, and organized crime bosses...

No longer Trippin
31-07-2003, 07:13:07
and of course those evil filesharers.

31-07-2003, 07:26:03
That's the RIAA. How are they going to charge people money for music if you can download it for free? But yeah, they support the FBI in wanting to inspect every bit of data...

No longer Trippin
31-07-2003, 19:58:44
How can you be held in contempt of Congress once and are working hard on a second, yet still not be fined... and aiming for a second time rather well at that? Ah yes, pay off both parties - hence why each is trying to come up with more Draconian laws on it than the other party - so they get more RIAA money. It's just a routine the industry doesn't mind going through as it fades off public radar as quick as it appeared and the media never mentions it. They were supposed to bring record prices down twice already on order of congress due to price fixing, and the last time - they were told they only had to do it for 7 years... aparently that is too much time. A tape is7 to 8 bucks and cost more to make, a CD can range from 15 to 20 on average at the same stores, yet the CD is cheaper to manufacture. They've been found in contempt once (similar deal that they didn't abide by and it took ~5 years before they were dragged back in). Hell, two companies made a public statement saying they thought price fixing was competive... not in those words, but nearly them - something like equal pricing or some BS. The media didn't even bite onto that.. hell CNN didn't report it at all, I read it on BBCi that they were in before congress again. Then again, they have heavy media ties to say the least, so it's not surprising.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
31-07-2003, 20:10:44
"They list this as a reason they need "everything". So they can watch them islamic terrorists what is going to hijack a load of manure and drive it into the White House."

And then they won't find the important stuff in that shitload of data. And if they find something, they have no one to translate the transcripts.

Brilliant. Gotta love big brother.

31-07-2003, 20:37:43
But that's what IBM and Microsoft are therefore... translating it all, digitally, for the agent assigned to watch for the pop up alerts. Whether that is an American, British, Chinese, French, or German agent of the government.

If you watch the field known as Software Agents, you see that's the tool that is going to flag things for whoever. Whether its talks about where to order the chemicals to finish out a fertilizer truck bomb, where to go to get the latest "free" copy of The Matrix Reloaded or Finding Nemo, or whether it's email encrypted chatter 3 links down from a known revolutionary or human rights agent in China.

And the software agents are getting to the point that they are reliable scanning the entire AOL feeds through Virginia (all AOL data incoming and outgoing in the US goes through their Virginia hub), so that means they are getting reliable enough to handle *all* the digital data streams...

This isn't a paranoid delusion. All the FBI needs is to get SOMEONE to say ok, and they'll have the whole stream to look through as they choose. And with the fact that the Patriot Act says that if the Law (in whatever agent) wants to look at someone, that is reasonable grounds to grant that agent full range to look at all data that he can see. If you can just tap into the raw data stream, via the FBI server Hub, and use its searching agents to pull out anything they think is related...

Search agents only get better with the refinements... I think it's time I joined the auxillary secondary reserve auxillary sherriffs program. I'd never get activated, but I'd become a Law Man, with full access to the county law system... and the state... and a few of the federal systems...

Keep in mind, if you "own" the raw data stream, it is trivial to fork off copies of "serious naughty" data streams to whatever suspect you wanted to frame as recieving or originating that naughty stuff.

"Gee, look at that! They are distributing stills and videos of 5 year old girls being fucked by shetland ponies! What sick bastards! Lets bust those bastards!"

In court: Closed "Secret" Session: Defendant's lawyer: "Your honor, all expert examiners have shown that at no time did my client have such data, and at no time did they distribute it".

Prosecution: "Your honor, we have clear digital data, recorded of the FBI's Data Guard Servers themselves, showing the defendant clearly did. And, you have heard from our computer experts in how easy it is to hide and clean up a PC. You have also heard how noone could possibly meddle with the raw data stream itself, and the safe guards taken to prevent any tampering of the records."

Not very far fetched at all. Especially when the FBI has admitted to forging evidence throughout its history, on orders from as high as the sitting President down to the individual agents themselves just convinced the punk did it, to lab technicians meeting quotas. And it admits it is still doing it...for all the same reasons...

Dyl Ulenspiegel
31-07-2003, 20:44:01
As for software, if you want to go undetected, you'll find out what the software can and can't do, and act accordingly.
I've always wondered how it would handle written dialect in e-mails.

"Especially when the FBI has admitted to forging evidence throughout its history"

Sure. Trusting them with those tools is just insane.

31-07-2003, 21:06:43
That's why I'm sponsoring this thread here, Roland. ;)

Dialects are as easy to scan and translate for the software as regular speech is. It's all just different languages to the software. It's local idioms that aren't known that mess it up, from my digging.

Of course, the best way to keep the translation software accurate is to have people that speak that dialect, do so and record the conversation, so they can compare what the software came up with versus what they had actually said. As long as you've got someone around that speaks that language, and able to communicate or punch in the the proper translation, the system stays seriously accurate. it's a lot of work though... and takes a big staff. Which is why only governments with some serious scratch are doing so. But I'd be curious who is co-funding some of the big names on their translation efforts... looking for easier/cheaper/better ways of doing so...

And with VOIP, if you could get a computer to be able to correlate parts of the dialect against something... you can cut out having to have people that actually speak the language. The more people that chatter on the phone, the more correlated samples you get... it seems logical to me. Whether that will work out correctly though, will await to be revealed.

No longer Trippin
31-07-2003, 23:21:59
Hell, the NSA decrypted and had translated the email about a huge attack hitting tomorrow... only it took them that day that they were attacked to decrypt and translate it and get it to someone since it raised enough flags. encryption is easy to break unless you have PGP 3.0 - all versions after have an unadmitted to backdoor for the government most believe since they let them release version 4 and dropped the pressure on them a little before that. They all deny it, but to decrypt PGP, you need to have the key or a backdoor... even if hooked up to a computer that can do terraflops of computations a second (higest is 37 for one system - admitted at least, and it's owned by NEC in japan), it still won't crack it in any reasonable time theoretically. Thus they have to have a backdoor in them now. Though AMD is making a 40 terraflop machine with 10,000 Opteron processors for the US at only 90 million. :rolleyes: Even that supercomp by AMD and Cray would be hardpressed to crack it in any reasonable time, going by theories at least.

Dialects aren't much of a problem, the systems they use are fairly adaptive logically. Only problems are codewords which were handed out by word of mouth - thus the machine can't tell what the word means - only flag it. That is where the technology gets stuck. It may know that something is up, and the word gets flagged as it doesn't fit the sentence or keeps popping up on the same channels they are monitoring on email and international phone. Long as they can get people around the globe, they can conduct attacks without the information network that is so well monitored. By roundtrip tickets, traveling with decent amount of luggage, etc. they still may be questioned or searched, but if the VISA checks out along with a background check if they make themselves suspicious, they can go - thus carring the message. With the ability to make new id's and the middle east poor records system (to nonexistant), your not looking at something hard to do.

That's why we need to increase our human intel in the US - to get the bits of info the technology can't unless there are rather serious slipups which allow the logic loops or those at NSA that deal with the info to catch. Though terrorist realize such slipups if they recieve them as they realized the idiot on the other end didn't follow the rules - thus the plan is scrapped or changed anyhow. Real pain for the intelligence community as those they are targetting know how we get the majority of our information - it also allows them to manipulate the info freely and rather safetly which then leads to false terror alerts and confirms to them if they have been tagged. No system is perfect in even the best of circumstances for intelligence, and this is one of the worst for them to handle.


As for using it for the FBI - no fucking way... there crime lab has admitted to botching 6,000 cases, though little to none will get retrials (which is pissing the ACLU off) as they won't reveal which cases. The ACLU is already suing against the patriot act which allows a lot less than the FBI wants. If constitutional law prevails, the ACLU wins. If things get twisted around to make constitoinal laws seem moot, the ACLU has a much larger fight, which is what it will probably be. Arguing the constitutional protection along with the fact that it applies to all mediums - that is the weak link in constitutional law that the government will try to exploit to keep the act intact. So if the act is struct down the FBI will quickly shut down this dream pursuit. If not, then it will have to be attacked with the patriot act in place which would make it a rather hard legal nut to crack then. The ACLU though has been rather rabid ever since the act was passed with the homeland security deal - haven't ever seen them this pissed so to speak.

Darkstar is sadly dead on with what he is saying about how the FBI would use this, and eventually larger police forces... the FBI would just now have an information "lab" as well as a forensics one.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
01-08-2003, 08:01:51
"Of course, the best way to keep the translation software accurate is to have people that speak that dialect, do so and record the conversation, so they can compare what the software came up with versus what they had actually said."

But that's one hell of a database, is it not? Also, with a not fully researched dialect, you'll never get the full vocabulary...

And how is it working for writing dialect?

01-08-2003, 08:07:05
hey. Axe = Guitar = etc...

it does better then babblefish, but it doesn't sound fully "natural" from what little I've been able to dig up on that. Still, given enough time and money, anything is possible in the digital realm...

And database size isn't that significant. The quicker the machines get, the faster the access to storage is, the less impact DB size has on you.

Dyl Ulenspiegel
01-08-2003, 18:45:18
Access may not be so much of a problem, but getting all the needed data in the first place, or?

Dyl Ulenspiegel
01-08-2003, 18:46:56
Originally posted by No longer Trippin

The ACLU is already suing against the patriot act which allows a lot less than the FBI wants. If constitutional law prevails, the ACLU wins. If things get twisted around to make constitoinal laws seem moot, the ACLU has a much larger fight, which is what it will probably be.

I don't think they have a chance against the combination of rightwing judges and terrorism hysteria.