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Colon
11-07-2003, 13:06:50
Could someone explain me the difference between HTML and things like php, pearl, dreamweaver etc? Are the latter things you insert into (HTML) pages or standalone scripts to design software? Do you need special software for that or can you create it with notepad, like HTML?

FYI, my experience with webdesign so far has only been this picture gallery (http://home.pi.be/~chm3grs/homepage.htm) I made in MS Frontpage.

thx

Qaj the Fuzzy Love Worm
11-07-2003, 16:47:53
Ooooh, pretty.

Sean
11-07-2003, 17:09:34
HTML (HyperText Markup Language) is, well, used to markup documents. You use tags like <p> to say this is a paragraph, this is a list (unordered), this is a heading, this is a quotation…

To style this, you use CSS (Cascading Style Sheets). http://www.csszengarden.com/ shows what CSS is capable of.

Both HTML and CSS are plain-text and can be edited in Notepad. I’d recommend a better text editor, like TextPad (http://www.textpad.com/), but it’s not required.

PHP and Perl are two scripting languages commonly used on the web. You use these to create dynamic sites, like this one.

Dreamweaver is a WYSIWYG (what you see is what you get) web design tool. It’s apparently the best.

Qaj the Fuzzy Love Worm
11-07-2003, 18:00:24
Bah! The best? I've used both it and Frontpage, and I prefer Frontpage.

Of course, I use neither for their WYSIWYG abilities, prefering to stay in the comfortable-old-shoe world of code, so I can't comment on their overall functionality. But the coding aspects of Dreamweaver bite, IMHO.

I have an artist friend who used Dreamweaver from the design PoV and did almost no code at all. She hated Frontpage. So I guess it depends what you want to get out of it.

I have neither at home, so I use Notepad. The most irritating thing about Notepad is the font is too big and the tabs are too big. If you get a vanilla editor to edit your HTML, or PHP or whatnot, think about getting an editor that's a little more configurable.

Sean
11-07-2003, 18:27:09
I said apparently because I use TextPade and Dreamweaver MX actually has accessibility tools :).

You can change the font in Notepad, but the tabs annoy the hell out of me too. Still not as bad as people who use spaces instead of tabs, though.

Debaser
11-07-2003, 18:34:33
Originally posted by Colon
FYI, my experience with webdesign so far has only been this picture gallery (http://home.pi.be/~chm3grs/homepage.htm) I made in MS Frontpage.

thx

Did you take all those photos? Some of them are really nice.

Jeratain
11-07-2003, 18:46:08
Frontpage is good for beginners. I designed my first website about 4 or 5 years ago using Fronpage. It was an amature personal site and frankly looked rather tacky. When attempting to create a new fully customizable site, I scrapped my use of Frontpage and went onto Dreamweaver 4. At first I had no idea what I was doing, but slowly got the hang of it, and now I use nothing but Dreamweaver (MX now) to design sites. I don't care for using notepad unless I am editing my code, because it just takes too long to type out all the code manually.

Frontpage gives garbled and unecessary code to do some of the basic things that you could do with regular HTML. Dreamweaver has much cleaner code than Frontpage and has much more customizable options for your site. It also supports many different coding types.

Sir Penguin
11-07-2003, 18:56:25
HTML is a limited scripting language that is used to organise content on a web page. PHP and Perl are full programming languages. They can do loops and conditionals, hold variables, and access databases, just like javascript, and not like HTML. Unlike javascript, PHP and Perl are interpreted on the server instead of in your web browser, and produce regular HTML code that is then sent to your browser to be interpreted. (at least, that's my understanding)

SP

Sean
11-07-2003, 18:58:56
HTML is not a scripting language. Is that not implicit in the name?

JavaScript can be interpreted on the server as well.

Qaj the Fuzzy Love Worm
11-07-2003, 19:34:46
Is that actual JavaScript on the server, or JScript via ASP? (Or both!)

Sean
11-07-2003, 19:45:51
You can use both JavaScript and JScript with ASP (I think), and you can also use JavaScript on the Netscape web server.

Qaj the Fuzzy Love Worm
11-07-2003, 20:19:07
Neato! Even though it's irrelevant because I code in :vom: VBScript in ASP...

Sean
11-07-2003, 20:36:20
If it’s that bad, use JavaScript. You have to do that to get the server offset from UTC anyway, like so:<script language="JavaScript" runat="Server">
function getOffset() {
var newDate = new Date
var offset = newDate.getTimezoneOffset();

return(offset);
}
</script>JavaScript actually seems like a pretty cool language.

Sean
11-07-2003, 20:36:56
Bah, missing semicolon. Too lazy to click edit.

Sir Penguin
11-07-2003, 21:14:28
Originally posted by Sean
HTML is not a scripting language. Is that not implicit in the name?

Depends on your definition of scripting language. I generally use the word "script" to mean a plaintext file that contains commands that are to be interpreted. A markup language is just a scripting language that uses tags as its commands.

SP

Sean
11-07-2003, 23:24:05
That’s a strange definition of scripting language, all right. Markup does not contain commands, and does not come from computing.

Qaj the Fuzzy Love Worm
11-07-2003, 23:48:59
I started out in JScript with ASP, but I switched to VBScript after:

a) a one-year break from coding it (which I did for about three months, and got the hang of nicely)
b) when I started ASP again, the only worthwhile help I could find through Google for a lot of stuff was in VBScript, so I was dragged over to the dark side.
c) I'm too lazy to go back and try to learn JScript again.

If you've ever used Visual Basic, you'll know how irritating VBScript can be sometimes. It gets the job done, sure, but it wouldn't be my first choice.

Funnily enough, I can code JavaScript. Go figure. I guess I'm too lazy to see whether it'll work in place of VBScript, too :) :)


markup doesn't contain conditionals, therefore doesn't come close to qualifying as a scripting language in my book.

Sean
12-07-2003, 00:08:34
I know how to use VBScript, and I know to hate the regular expression support, the stupid arrays…oh, so many things.

Sir Penguin
12-07-2003, 00:36:35
Originally posted by Sean
That’s a strange definition of scripting language, all right. Markup does not contain commands, and does not come from computing.

Well, maybe you're right. I still don't see a significant difference, though. On the one hand, you have a text file containing lines of code that have a specific meaning, and printable text contained in quotes. On the other, you have printable lines of text that can have any meaning, and code that is contained in tags. They're both run through interpreters to produce a result that is different from the input.

Tags are equivalent to commands. They tell the interpreter to do something. That's close enough to a command in my book.

SP

Sean
12-07-2003, 09:50:50
The result doesn’s have to be different, though! The browser can completely ignore a cite tag if it chooses, but then I can use that to find out which films (or whatever) I’ve mentioned . If it’s valid XML: //cite will do this.

Colon
12-07-2003, 10:17:04
Thanks for the response. I hope my brain can process it.

Originally posted by Debaser
Did you take all those photos? Some of them are really nice.

Most of them.

Colon
12-07-2003, 10:18:22
Originally posted by Sir Penguin
HTML is a limited scripting language that is used to organise content on a web page. PHP and Perl are full programming languages. They can do loops and conditionals, hold variables, and access databases, just like javascript, and not like HTML. Unlike javascript, PHP and Perl are interpreted on the server instead of in your web browser, and produce regular HTML code that is then sent to your browser to be interpreted. (at least, that's my understanding)

SP

So what I see in my browser is always HTML, even if its programmed in PHP?

Sean
12-07-2003, 11:38:30
Basically yes.

Darkstar
13-07-2003, 08:43:09
Colon, it depends...

Web page designers can "embed" scripts in web pages. That code would get shot across to your browser. If your browser understands that script, it will run it. You see all sorts of script on forms where the designers wanted to get back formated text (like from date entry fields), etc.

Servers run lots of scripts to figure out dynamicly changing stuff, and then shoot that info back over to your browser as pure HTML, or HTML with script.

Generally, as a software designer and web applicationist, I think it's best if to render a pure HTML to the user's browser. This allows for the largest possible support of accessibility and browser range. However, different people have their own standards for how they like to do their designs.

Sean
13-07-2003, 14:41:25
Scripting only changes the DOM though, in most cases, so it’s still HTML effectively.

Colon
13-07-2003, 21:01:49
Silly question: what is a script?

Colon
13-07-2003, 21:02:20
My idea is of it is rather vague.

Sir Penguin
13-07-2003, 21:29:52
I'd better not answer that... ;)

SP

Sean
13-07-2003, 22:43:30
Originally posted by Colon
Silly question: what is a script?
In this context, it’s something that is used to program inside a web page. Used for pop-ups, validating forms, and quizzes.

Colon
14-07-2003, 20:05:56
Ok, I think/hope I understand. Can you design a regular webpage without any HTML at all or is it like DNA to living beings?

Scabrous Birdseed
14-07-2003, 20:10:12
A web page without any HTML at all is colloquially known as a "text file".

Unless, of course, you mean a web page entirely authored in a server-side script like PHP, which outputs HTML, in which case, yes.

Nav
19-07-2003, 18:39:42
I've tried to ignore this thread, but did someone say that frontpage was better than dreamweaver? The audacity! The Cheek! :eek:

Qaj the Fuzzy Love Worm
21-07-2003, 15:55:09
I did, but in the context of a text editor for HTML.

Nav
21-07-2003, 16:46:54
The audacity! the cheek! ;)

Dreamweaver MX is really good as text editor as well. although I still prefer Homesite's colouring of PHP code (I could probably change it but I'm too lazy)

Qaj the Fuzzy Love Worm
21-07-2003, 23:24:18
Hey! I started out at work on HomeSite (I installed it from one of our Dreamweaver CDs) but the guys at IT told be to interface to their web server I'd best use Frontpage and nothing else since they didn't support and wouldn't give the connection information out to anyone else. So I've muddled along with Frontpage, and now Dreamweaver is alien to me. Which is okay, because I'm marvellously productive with Frontpage :) :)

The way I see it, Frontpage is for left-brainers, and Dreamweaver is for right-brainers :D Notepad is for no-brainers, of course :)