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Darkstar
30-06-2003, 18:17:12
Howdy!

Just posting from work. My workstation started flaking out seriously 2 weeks ago. Finally got the hard drive reformatted and the OS dropped on it late friday. Meaning I have to reinstall all my tools... but our tech support screwed the poodle, as usual. Now my machine cannot browse files. Before, it wouldn't handle HTML. I just love the way our tech people install images of stepped up OSes. Works wonderful...

This is the first of the line of this model to have a problem, so of course it takes a government study of subcontractors to inform our tech support what they should do. Let's see... This is about to impact the Shuttle's Return to Flight program, so I expect there is about to be a few hundred tech support getting fired in a month or 3 from now over this... We shall see...

It does, however, mean I get to post here for a while from work. Cannot do anything else but run AngBand and browse the net. Life sucks, eh?

Qaj the Fuzzy Love Worm
30-06-2003, 18:35:34
It was your PC that destroyed Columbia, wasn't it DS? Fess up!

Darkstar
30-06-2003, 18:44:59
No it wasn't.

I'm not involved with the Space Flight. However, the various teams involved in the Return to Flight effort have been recommended and requested to use a system I developed. Without my machine being functional, I cannot support that system.

Now, unlike most things in NASA, this is not a single point of failure. My team-mate can support them. However, he isn't the coder, and if something goes twiggy outside his realm in the system, he cannot dissect the system like I can to figure out where and what is causing it. (his realm: The system's data schematics and data entries)

Supposedly, I'm on the 5 minute list. I call in a problem, and our tech support is supposed to either have it fixed in five minutes, or a new duplicate of my machine (with cloned HD) setting in front of me, ready to run, within 5 minutes. They are 2 weeks down so far, and still going. However, they ARE closing out the trouble ticket within seconds of it being reported, which means a bright nuclear bomb hasn't gone off with top management about this... fun fun. You support the system that the management's secretaries and the bean counters use daily, you are a VIP... its a strange world, isn't it?

Deacon
30-06-2003, 19:33:09
I thought MCSEs could simply flip a switch and put windows onto thousands of machines in minutes. :)

I once had a problem where the thumbnail previews stopped working. I had to edit the registry to get it working again. This was right after I installed Avant Browser on the Windows 2000 side of my machine.

Darkstar
30-06-2003, 19:49:37
Deacon, our technicians are not MCSEs. We are a Microsoft Certified Partner. I have no clue what that means, other then somewhere, someone gave someone else some money. ;)

BigGameHunter
30-06-2003, 20:34:23
What's interesting about this is that I am seeing "NASA delays launch" ticker messages as I read it.

Wow! The most I can fuck up is some kid's RSX that's behind schedule...you must be drunk with power.

Darkstar
30-06-2003, 20:42:56
Return to Flight (RtF) has nothing to do with the Mars Missions. RtF is about slinging the Shuttles back up into LEO (Low Earth Orbit).

BigGameHunter
30-06-2003, 20:58:42
Oh, please...it's all a big, teetering house of cards. You're not fooling anyone.

Darkstar
30-06-2003, 21:07:25
It's going to get worse, I think.

The Investigation Committee's Recommendations are just going to make it worse, I think. At least, so far from what I've seen...

BigGameHunter
30-06-2003, 21:11:41
Good...about time we spent some of that money here on Earth. And don't get me started on the whole "cures for cancer and special discoveries in outer space" jag either...I already went through that years ago when I wrote an editorial dissing that Da Vinci camera/satellite back in the early 90's.
Funny...I used to slag on all sorts of stuff and the biggest outcry I got was over that. Sheesh.
:)

Darkstar
30-06-2003, 22:10:26
They are going to keep spending money on NASA and the shuttle program. This just gives proof what NASA has been telling the White House for several administrations... they need more funding to do a new generation shuttle.

No, it's the recommendations on how to 'fix' the problems that are going to fuck things up more. At least, from what they've released of what is going to go into the final recommendation and findings report...

Sir Penguin
30-06-2003, 22:51:59
I'd appreciate it if you would take your zombie off the Internet. There's no need to help the DDOSers.

SP

BigGameHunter
30-06-2003, 23:09:00
Actually, after reading the fairy tale "Red Mars" I'm totally pumped to see a whole bunch of losers shot outta here.

Sir Penguin
30-06-2003, 23:15:38
It would be great if Kim Stanley Robinson was one of them.

SP

Qaj the Fuzzy Love Worm
30-06-2003, 23:40:16
Darkstar, you should recommend to NASA they should use this technology.

http://www.gctspace.com/research/zpf.html

Wave of the future.

*chortle*

Deacon
01-07-2003, 05:10:19
I guess given the choice between a shiny new spacecraft incorporating the hard-earned lessons of the last 20 years, and bolting stuff on, they've chosen to bolt stuff on.

BigGameHunter
01-07-2003, 07:23:09
I can't wait to get my Zero Point Galactic Explorer Energy Ship! I just ordered it online. It comes with a special helmet, gloves, everything!

Deacon
01-07-2003, 07:52:56
If the the tech was stolen from the aliens, there might be a task force on its way to recover it.

Qaj the Fuzzy Love Worm
01-07-2003, 17:53:45
Cool, further opportunities to steal technology from them!

Darkstar
01-07-2003, 19:09:08
Humm... NASA is already funding a wide variety of "weird science". I think Goddard is the lead center for Alternative Research and Technology, but I could have that wrong.

ZPE is everywhere, but as you cannot get below ZPE, there isn't much point in dealing with it according to most scientist. However, I'll kick that link over to a few oddball scientists I know, and see how they like it...

It's not that NASA doesn't want new space-craft. They are working on Next Generation Launch Vehicle and Re-usable Vehicles. But, it will still be another 10 to 20 years before they get any serious models built, thanks to Clinton's shutting down and redirecting the funding for the next generation projects while he was president. These things take serious time. The one 'quick, cheap, and dirty' set of next generation projects got cancelled as well. Leaving only the latest in the next generation re-usable launch vehicles. Heck, if it wasn't for Sept. 11, the current crop would have probably been cancelled as well. Only, immediate and swift total response is desired, so the Air Force is underwriting the next generation re-usable vehicles, so that USA can space lift full heavy army units to anywhere in the world in less then 20 minutes. And the Army and Air Force both want space bombers capable of striking any target in the world within 15 minutes of the word go, and keep the Space Traversing strike force based in the safety of the Dakotas. Of course, the ARMY is looking at the Space Bombers for deploying large scale tactical nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons. The Air Force just wants the Space Bombers to deploy everything in their arsenal...

The Navy will of course get a slice of the Air Force action, supposedly to drop SEAL teams and for support of SEAL action, as well as Space Superiority (killing other nations Space Bombers) and support of Naval Superiority via Space to "ground" (dropping guided iron bombs onto enemy fleets from orbit) weaponry.

All that from the WTC and Pentagon attacks. Complete militarization of space to deal instant vengence and guarantee American military superiority overy the world for a few more generations...

Darkstar
01-07-2003, 19:16:56
SP, I thought you MIGHT say something about DDoS... It's not that kind of zombie. Just a machine that can only handle simple menial tasks, after having been officially declared dead, and then "ressurrected". :D

Darkstar
01-07-2003, 19:21:21
On the Militirization of Space front...

Do you know why NASA is dumping lots of funds into linear accellerators? NASA wants them for launching items into orbit... have ever since a few NASA people read about them in some SF. However, it has only been recently that they've been investing serious bucks into the research. Why? Because the DoD (Dept. of Defense) has stated they'd fund a moon base if NASA has linear accelerators that are capable of shooting a large iron rock from the Moon to the Earth... as it would be even a better National Weapon of Mass Destruction then the nuclear weapons in their arsenal. They would be able to cut back significantly on earth based nuclear weapons and maintain the ability to destroy any nation state at the push of a button.

The circle is almost complete. We started by throwing rocks at each other, back in the beginning. Soon (within a few generations), we will be back to throwing rocks at each other.

Sir Penguin
01-07-2003, 19:22:57
I guess I'm predictable that way. :)

SP

Darkstar
01-07-2003, 19:27:09
It's an obvious answer, if you are into computers... ;)

BigGameHunter
01-07-2003, 21:40:14
Shit...I better get back to work...I've got a space slingshot to pay for!

Darkstar
01-07-2003, 21:47:04
There's currently a lot of dove-tailing of research between the linear accellerators and the mag-lev trains. If they can make one economical, the other should follow automatically. And floating trains are just so cool looking...

Deacon
02-07-2003, 07:03:14
Originally posted by Qaj the Fuzzy Love Worm
Cool, further opportunities to steal technology from them!

That's assuming there's anybody left alive to pick up the duds. Energy beams don't leave any duds at all. :)

So basically, the short-term projects have been cancelled, and the NASP space plane they've been trying to build since the 80s is still in development. I hope the next 20 years go faster than the last 20.

Dropping troops from space sounds far-fetched. If the vehicle drops them from orbit, they'll have to ride in a re-entry vehicle. If the vehicle re-enters and then drops them off, it'll need enough fuel for the trip back. A bomber would have life easier. Blast off, overfly the target, and drop an RV from orbit onto the target.

A strike with a man-made meteor launched from the Moon would be like a mini-Tunguska. It would have to travel very quickly to reach Earth in a short amount of time. And enemies would have to shoot at the Moon or prevent communication with the Moon to disrupt its operation. Very nasty.

Of course, doing any of this stuff will be intergalactically expensive.

Sir Penguin
02-07-2003, 07:20:45
If it kills people, it's worth it!

SP

Deacon
02-07-2003, 20:42:27
But it's simpler and cheaper to give the enemy booze and heavy machinery.

Darkstar
02-07-2003, 21:00:00
But some of them have wised up to that, so when they get drunk they attack us, instead of each other.

Remember, so long as the security is the number one concern, there is no such thing as 'too expensive'. Of course, we may have to cut out a few things like Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security to afford it, but its all for National Security.

Darkstar
02-07-2003, 21:14:47
You should realize they are talking 2 seperate kinds of space planes, Deacon. In the straight bomber, a space drop would be just like it sounds... a drop from the bombers payload bay down onto target. That's a one way trip, like an airborne assault. No loading back up on the drop vehicle and getting lifted out.

The other transport would land with the transported, so they could reload and rapidly redeploy (or retreat) if needed. They are talking about it being basically a SVTOL aircraft that uses scram engines to go giga (hyper+) sonic around the world.

The bomber isn't anything but a larger version of the Space Shuttle... only they want to drop the tile system. That's what they are digging for in the 'Affordable Space Transport' X series right now. They don't need to worry about anything else for an Air Force Space Strike Bomber, as all the other tech for it is already known. Moving from tiles to some lower maintaince, non-ablative re-entry mechanism is all that is needed to achieve that, as they are going to use aerodynamics to get up to a decent altitude (Think: Jet), then kick in a rocketry boost, and then go scram. Although Nuclear Propulsion is being examined as an alternative propulsive means, as that would mean only one propulsion system. Simpler is always better. And since there is no other super power (currently), it means the DoD (and NASA) does not feel we have to stick to any Nuclear Propulsion treaty bans...

The SVOTL transporter HAS to be combat rated, so it needs to be a hardier craft, and more heavily armored, then normal, so it can go into a hot LZ, drop troops, return into the hot LZ, and extract troops. This makes the craft heavier. (Currently, all space craft have to be made 'bullet proof' just to survive all the trash in LOE.) They are only looking at Nuclear Propulsion. And the added side effect for the military is that if they lose a Hot Bird, they set it's reactor to self destruct, and have an instant dirty bomb to punish the enemy.

Isn't it fun when the military start moving in on the idealists territory?

Qaj the Fuzzy Love Worm
02-07-2003, 22:33:57
Why don't they just build Orion and be done with it?

Darkstar
02-07-2003, 22:44:27
Because the Nuclear Propulsion they are planing on isn't an Orion Bang Bang engine. They are talking about something more like a light weight version of the standard propulsions used in Naval Vessels. Having a nuclear reactor heat the smack out of steam, and using that via heat transfer to heat up some reactant and blowing it out. It's the nuclear version of the real ion drive.

Orion was a series of external nuclear explosions, with their shock waves hitting the vessels "pusher" plate and pushing the craft along in pulses... The Orion system would wipe out any unhardened electronics near the flight path, and it would leave a lot of nuclear fall out behind itself...

However, it should be noted that the Orion project was reported as resurrected a few years ago, but nothing sense has turned up in the buzz. Probably making an Orion White House to launch the President and a select mostly female crew into space in case of some worst case scenario...

Qaj the Fuzzy Love Worm
03-07-2003, 00:06:42
Granted, and my comment was intended as tongue in cheek. But it only takes one Columbia to contaminate the entire southern half of the U.S. with radioactive material. Yikes!

Deacon
03-07-2003, 03:29:52
There was a project during the 60s called Rover. That program built a solid-core nuclear rocket. Fuel was basically pumped through a hot nuclear pile and exhausted out the back. They made a fair amount of progress before they concluded that a gaseous nuclear reactor would be better. Of course, it's much harder to do. The technology to model it has only shown up recently.

There was also a project called Aircraft Nuclear Propulsion. The farthest they got was building some nuclear-powered jet engines that tested well on the ground and they built a testbed B-36 with radiation shields and a reactor, but conventional power. The integration never happened. It's unclear if they could have produced an engine powerful enough to lift an airplane with all the shielding required.

Deacon
03-07-2003, 03:58:48
For the troop transport, maybe it's possible to say, use a nuclear turbojet to get off the ground, and then use rocket fuel heated by the reactor for the final push into orbit. We probably won't get any of the juicy details for some time to come...

Darkstar
05-07-2003, 10:00:35
Don't forget about the nuclear powered helicopters...

of course, helicopters are a lot more tempermental, mechanically speaking, which is what always kills the super copter projects.

BigGameHunter
05-07-2003, 20:03:22
How about a couple of nuclear powered farms or atmosphere scrubbers?

Deacon
06-07-2003, 04:29:11
The atom could be used for any number of things, but there's only so much uranium. We need to build a "breeder" reactor someday.

Edit:

Apparently breeders already exist, but the US isn't building any due to worries about plutonium production. Never mind that normal reactors already produce plutonium.

http://pw1.netcom.com/~res95/energy/nuclear/breeder.html

Darkstar
06-07-2003, 04:33:00
Breeder reactors are highly controlled under various non-nuclear weapon proliferation treaties. Supposedly, only research breeder plants are allowed, IIRC.

Deacon
06-07-2003, 05:00:11
I'm sure Russia could build one for military research...

Darkstar
06-07-2003, 05:38:35
Russia, USA, Iran, Iraq, India, China, North Korea, France, Japan...

Pakistan had started one but we (USA) bought them off from completing one.

Most breeders have been 'shutdown' or 'decommissioned', IIRC.

Darkstar
22-07-2003, 04:36:03
They finally got around to giving me back my workstation. They guaranteed that it was trouble free. Guess what? It has the exact same problem with it coming back from the shop as when it went in. Whee!

I was able to fix that problem on a test machine on Friday by installing the latest security updates from Microsoft. So I tried that on my returned workstation. Made it worse instead. Now, IE is dead, and the machine randomly reboots. Fun fun fun...

My tech support realizes they are all dead, fired, buried, lost their christmas bonus, and going to have lots of shit heaped on them by their management as this has become a big ticket item with NASA. Return To Flight is a big deal, and we are approaching No Machine/No Support for 4 weeks now. Whee!

Deacon
22-07-2003, 04:43:32
Is giving up and starting again feasible?

Darkstar
22-07-2003, 04:55:26
Done that several times. The problem is on their side, their stuff. They just cannot get their management to admit that. Oh well, they are the ones losing money over it.

Qaj the Fuzzy Love Worm
22-07-2003, 15:25:04
It'd be cheaper, when you take into account labor costs etc. for them to just buy you a new machine, DS. You should suggest it to them, maybe send them a Dell* catalog with your dream machine circles or something.

* Dell used as an example, insert something credible here.

Deacon
22-07-2003, 22:22:31
Dell desktops got good marks in a recent PC Magazine survey. HP and Compaq desktops got clobbered, even with a smaller sample size than Dell. Gateway desktops got a C+.

Darkstar
23-07-2003, 02:26:12
We are using Dells at work. Nice system actually. It's not the Dells that are broke, it's our IT Support. They've got various tools and flavors of stuff that have conflicting DLL versions.

I just got told today the new solution is for my department to buy another computer from them, and pay for another seat of support on it equal to what I already have on the first box. I asked them how they can reassure that the new machine is going to work when they cannot get my current machine (from them) to work, "out of the box".

Remember, it's not DELL I'm talking about here. It's our outsourced IT support.

They are having the people THEY pay to make their IT work come by and "rebuild" my system with a generic Windows 2000 Pro load. So I'll get a clean system that might run. They cannot duplicate the DELL load, as they wiped that out and noone that was paid to keep it archived actually did their job. Just like they don't have any standard version of Windows around. ;)

Yes, I say, they are sending by the IT contractors they pay to keep their own computers and networks running. It will just take between now and Christmas for those guys to show up at my desk.

Of course, I could load my box myself. But that's not what I'm paid for. ;)

Qaj the Fuzzy Love Worm
23-07-2003, 19:02:22
It's always encouraging when an IT department needs to get someone in to fix their PCs isn't it? :)

The Mad Monk
25-07-2003, 17:59:42
Originally posted by Darkstar
Humm... NASA is already funding a wide variety of "weird science". I think Goddard is the lead center for Alternative Research and Technology, but I could have that wrong.

ZPE is everywhere, but as you cannot get below ZPE, there isn't much point in dealing with it according to most scientist. However, I'll kick that link over to a few oddball scientists I know, and see how they like it...

It's not that NASA doesn't want new space-craft. They are working on Next Generation Launch Vehicle and Re-usable Vehicles. But, it will still be another 10 to 20 years before they get any serious models built, thanks to Clinton's shutting down and redirecting the funding for the next generation projects while he was president. These things take serious time. The one 'quick, cheap, and dirty' set of next generation projects got cancelled as well. Leaving only the latest in the next generation re-usable launch vehicles. Heck, if it wasn't for Sept. 11, the current crop would have probably been cancelled as well. Only, immediate and swift total response is desired, so the Air Force is underwriting the next generation re-usable vehicles, so that USA can space lift full heavy army units to anywhere in the world in less then 20 minutes. And the Army and Air Force both want space bombers capable of striking any target in the world within 15 minutes of the word go, and keep the Space Traversing strike force based in the safety of the Dakotas. Of course, the ARMY is looking at the Space Bombers for deploying large scale tactical nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons. The Air Force just wants the Space Bombers to deploy everything in their arsenal...

The Navy will of course get a slice of the Air Force action, supposedly to drop SEAL teams and for support of SEAL action, as well as Space Superiority (killing other nations Space Bombers) and support of Naval Superiority via Space to "ground" (dropping guided iron bombs onto enemy fleets from orbit) weaponry.

All that from the WTC and Pentagon attacks. Complete militarization of space to deal instant vengence and guarantee American military superiority overy the world for a few more generations...

Great post. Shame it's doomed to anonymity in the tech forum. :)

Darkstar
25-07-2003, 20:31:55
Glad you like it.

Follow up on the OSP (Orbital Space Plane). Congress wants to speed it up fast. To support the ISS... which means that the OSP is most likely going to be an Apollo/Soyuz hybrid, because Congress wants it man-rated and flying ASAP, preferrably by 2005.

The down side to that is that the OSP will most likely be the next "Shuttle", and that means that we will effectively be turning our backs on manned space flight for the next 20 years at NASA. Of course, that's fine with Congress... until China shames us.

A consequence of going with Apollo design... ISS (International Space Station) will fall out of orbit in not that long a time. You see, Congress cancelled the orbital maintence modules for the ISS to save money, knowing that NASA could dock a Shuttle twice a year to the ISS, and use the Shuttle to boost the ISS back into a stable LEO (Low Earth Orbit), for another 6 to 8 months. But since Congress is now killing the Shuttle, there isn't a way to keep the ISS in LEO. So it will be coming tumbling down in a few years.

Gotta love this Faster, Better, Cheaper attitude, don't you?

Darkstar
25-07-2003, 20:45:27
Oh... and a follow up on the Scram jet test and disaster...

The X43A exploded in its first test flight. Its booster rocket ignited, and took it up at the wrong angle. The booster's stabilizing fins shredded off, and the stack (rocket booster and X43A) went wildly out of control. Flight Control had to self destruct the stack.

Disaster Analysis revealed:
#1) Noone bothered to use the real figures obtained from wind tunnel testing in all the computer flight modelling.
#2) Engineers decided to use a stronger thermal sheilding on the booster rocket, due to the engineers recognizing that having the X43A on the front of the rocket rather then its normal cone was going to result in added stress on the booster. This stronger thermal shielding was bigger (affecting the booster's aerodynamic properties past it's designed operating environment threshold, and adding to aerodynamic stressing of the rocket and stack), and had a different structural characteristics (meaning it stressed, tensed, ablated, and fractured differently), and weighted the rocket balance differently (made it even ass heavier). None of these characteristics were ever taken into account (nor was the change of standard payload change to the X43A), tested, modeled, or updated in the rocket's guidance system.

This meant that they had designed the perfect disaster. It performed exactly as designed.

Being ass heavier then normal, the rocket couldn't ever compensate enough to get stable flight control back. The extra stress from the actual configuration, added with the added stress of the rocket trying to steer down into it's programmed flight path, cause the silver bird to stress it's stabilizers well past their actual tolerances. The guidance computer allowed that because its program thought they could handle such calculated stressing (due to it thinking it was a normal rocket). Stabilizers then shredded, stack goes wildly out of control.

You'd think after flying a few hundred thousand test rockets, NASA would know better. Whoops...

Qaj the Fuzzy Love Worm
25-07-2003, 23:42:25
If I paid taxes (I highly recommend having 5 children/dependents, if for nothing else but the tax exemptions, but they're pretty cool as small people too in case you're wondering if I'm having kids just to stiff Uncle Sam, which is stupid because they cost me much more than I save on taxes, so it's not that great really except to stiff Uncle Sam :) ), this is the kind of stuff I'd love the government to be wasting my money on :)

The Mad Monk
31-07-2003, 05:50:26
DS, mind if I throw your posts over to another forum?

Darkstar
31-07-2003, 06:10:25
Nope. Go ahead, Mad Monk. What forum did you have in mind? You can PM me the forum's address...

No longer Trippin
31-07-2003, 07:27:58
So we are going to have a really expensive fucking apollo setup... great. Then we are gonna have to play catch up, which means spending 20 times as much - not that the government minds overpaying anyhow.

Darkstar
31-07-2003, 07:42:12
That seems to be Congress's plan right now.

Deacon
01-08-2003, 07:30:05
I think it's bad that the shuttle replacement will be watered down, but good that ISS will finally stop sucking money. :)

chagarra
01-08-2003, 10:48:06
ISS stop sucking money....??? :lol:

Sheezzz...

They appear to be finishing the JEM, which I thought was cancelled due to lack of funding, with what looks like three other modules in work, plus the three transport modules sitting waiting to go.
I can't see any slow down for at least five years. Even if the shuttles become unmanned delivery trucks.

The Mad Monk
02-08-2003, 06:17:58
Originally posted by Darkstar
Nope. Go ahead, Mad Monk. What forum did you have in mind? You can PM me the forum's address...

Apolyton. :)

I just have to come up with the proper hook.

I expcet a full melt down from certain individuals. :)

Deacon
03-08-2003, 06:33:15
Originally posted by chagarra
ISS stop sucking money....??? :lol:

Sheezzz...

They appear to be finishing the JEM, which I thought was cancelled due to lack of funding, with what looks like three other modules in work, plus the three transport modules sitting waiting to go.
I can't see any slow down for at least five years. Even if the shuttles become unmanned delivery trucks.

I was sorta hoping they'd cut their losses and splash it down before it falls out of the sky. :)

No longer Trippin
03-08-2003, 15:46:20
The ISS is a waste of money. We know how gravity effects pretty much every system in the body, we know how it decays, we just don't have a solution that is plausible enough right now to stop it for deep space manned journeys, like to Mars. Sure, there is nuclear propulsion, but to protect astronauts from radiation, it would have to be assembled in space due to the heavy shielding, even if only a part is shielded. They have talk of certrifuges running at 1/3 o 1/2 earth's gravity - they think a few minutes a day will keep the skeletal structure healthy, but they can't test that on the ISS. Most research that has been carried out on the shuttle is of little to no scientific value. I see no reason to have a station up there if it isn't for a more solid goal - not just somecrazy experiments, but legit science. Their isn't much that is legit anymore as most of what they can do in space, they've tried most of it already. It's just a huge vacuum cleaner that cleans out coffers (esp. the US).

Darkstar
04-08-2003, 18:10:25
Well, remember that ISS crewing was cut in half. It was designed to have a 6 man crew. It takes 2.5 full time astronauts just to keep the ISS up and running (life support, that sort of thing). And when they cut it back to 3 people, that meant they effectively elimanted all the science aboard ISS.

The main purpose of ISS, other then politics, is just to get some long term training in microgravity and space conditions. Although there is still some glimmering hope that tele-robotics will be developed and deployed to ISS, allowing the ISS to do remote servicing and remote construction. Other then that? I cannot recall anything other then some basic life sciences to study effects of countering aging deterioration. It's convenient to do so in micro-gravity, because astronauts deterioate in micro-gravity just like accelerated aging...

No longer Trippin
05-08-2003, 02:40:08
But we already know they suffer from deterioration, hell astronauts after a shuttle flight need some time before they are back to full strength. We have data from Skylab, Mir, and the money pit, I mean ISS. Most scientidic studies that are worthwhile to do in space we have done. Hell, Columbia only had a few experiments that the scientific community viewed as important - the girls scouts one or the plants used for fragrances weren't on that list, along with many others. Sure there are some things which would be beneficial, but not to the point of needing a station or several shuttle launches a year when some experiments can be automated and easily sent up on a rocket, the rest, well one shuttle launch a year would be enough to where they don't have astronauts doing girl scout experiments. They had to do something like 55 experiments if memory serves me right, only a few were considered worthwhile after you look at cost and benefits along if it's just bullshit or not. The shuttle and the ISS is just a big damned vacuum cleaner when it comes to money.

chagarra
05-08-2003, 03:13:48
Tripp

The real purpose of the ISS is not to do science, science experiment moneypit or not.
What we really need is a ladder to allow us to climb out of this huge gravity well, to be able to shift some of our eggs out of the one basket.
If we don't manage to use space with things like asteroid mining, space habs, micro gravity factories, and to put all noxious processes safely away from the earth. In about five or six generations our great.... great grandchildren will just be learning again how good a tool a leg bone cane be for killing.
The ISS is the bottom rung of that ladder. An essential step in man's evolution.

No longer Trippin
05-08-2003, 04:57:32
It's not even a whole rung, as DS said, they cut the crew in half, some modules aren't to be completed, and other than being something to look at with a telescope, it serves no purpose. I could see if it was fully functional station - at least something worthwhile would come out of it (and most likely into a companies pocket since they came up with the idea of us paying 500 million to ship it up to the ISS for us to do the experiment - all they have to pay for is the equipment needed - not a bad deal at all). As of now, not much will become of it as it's been stripped of a good deal of things due to budget cuts here or other nations unable to fulfill their obligations for the same reasons. Do the math... 2.5 astronauts to keep it working, and we have 3 up there... basically there only purpose is to keep it up there as cancelling it would ruin any administration which has the wisdom to do so as the public isn't happy about money being pissed away, they think it's being used for something, but with all 3 astronauts spending a good deal of time performing maintenace functions, they have little time for experimentation if DS's figure was accurate. We already know a huge amount about how the bodies systems decay in orbit as in bone and muscle mainly - what else are we gonna get from it? Not much... For it's cost since it has been stripped down, it isn't worth it. Maybe when we can afford it, but we can't even afford to fund the shuttle at it's original preflight testing and checks.. hell, technicians have had to BUY their own tools for some things at times - yet we have the ISS? Why? To let 7 more astronauts go up in smoke in the pursuit of stronger perfume?

I agree that we need to build a foundation, but with the current economy worldwide, we can't afford it - at least not standing still with just new technology. Don't add anymore modules, let the astronauts come home in the Soyuz and let it burn up. As of now it is really accomplishing nothing that we don't already know, and since they cut back on the amount of modules and crew, it won't be much more than what it currently is, a glorified skylab or mir. But we already have done those experiments on humans on those stations. There are questions about how to sustain a human in deep space conditions... some advocate pills, some a centrifuge - yet we can only pop the pills and we don't know if the astronauts need to stay in the centrifuge 24/7 or if they only need it periodically. There is nothing noteworthy onboard that will help us at all in solving that main problem that you brought up. Also it's still protected a great deal by the Van Allen Belt, and we haven't sent any dogs into deep space with monitors on them to see how long they live and a second rocket to send them home for autopies, thus we can't find out much more about protection from radiation other than what we learn from the ground. But there are no studies that are underway that simulate those conditions for the period of time it would take to get someone to mars - as the current methods are either too heavy or they degrade in efficientcy in time. We are going nowhere in terms of really getting out into space. The other is the fact that most likely, a manned mission to mars would require assembly in orbit of the ship. We already know how to assemble stuff in orbit - but we don't have a platform in space that could serve as a staging area for assembly of the modules, living space for crew, etc. So while we are talking of Mars we are still looking back into the past with the current station as it is. That is my problem with the ISS. I see a need for getting started on such things as mining, factories, and such, but the ISS doesn't even touch off on any of those things for the most part. You can make some small jumps in logic to make it seem that way, but your just kidding yourself. If we want to get into deep space with other than robots, we need to try better than the ISS. We need to cut the crap on some research for other beneficial stuff to mankind if some breakthroughs are poissible there and look at the long term. Build a platform which can handle assembly of large modules that would be needed for fab plants, deep space manned missions, etc. Not just falling back onto the skylab deal, as then all your doing is looking for stuff to experiment with, and after all these years, we seem to be running out of viable experiments if we don't mind taking perfume and girl scout experiments up into space for 500 million a pop.

The ISS to me is just a step in the wrong direction, and with the economy, we can't afford wrong steps period. Also as you said, the clock is ticking - if management and the heads of governments want to do science experiments for companies, let them fund it - I don't see those companies and other institutions that could benefit greatly from essentially free experiments to them paying much if anything really, and they are the ones who'll reap the profits of publicly funded research, not us. Like I said, wrong direction for a good idea. Pooling many nations funds was great, but reverting it into essentially a modernized version of skylab was a major fuckup if we really want to ever get out into space itself with humans or even automated robots for mining... you won't be able to launch that from a pad, that would have to be built in space as it would be a huge barge apart from the digging landers and feeding mechanisms for mining. For fabrication in space, you need to stick a fab plant up there, even if it's a large automated satelite. We've done a little in that last area, but not nearly enough. We just have a backwards mentality while we want to go forward.

The first rung on the latter was skylab and mir - we got the gravitational effects on the body out of that, now we need to figure out how to eliminate it, or reduce it to an extremely marginal amount due to the length of time space travel would take to get to Mars. We also need to revamp nuclear propulsion into full swing as well as start studying seriously ways of protecting the astronauts from radiation, not to mention each other as they would be essentially in a prison cell for quite awhile. We've learn a bit about coping with the pyschological stress though from mir - though when you get to mars, families aren't going to enjoy the not so instantaneous communications as they'd eventually be impossible to carry out unless you don't mind waiting 20 seconds for a response (10 to get there, 10 to get back)... thus email would be their only real line of communication for the most part. The pyschological stresses can be just as bad as any of the other factors - hell, six people may get along great at first, but after several months of being together, there are great chances, even with HEAVY pysch screening of them slipping through as we haven't really taken a group of astronauts and truly seperated them from their family in that fashion - not hard to do... can even be done on land. We'd have to do literally dozens before we would start to be able to develop solid profiles for individuals... same thing with medical issues, not much science has been done in that. How do you operate in zero g? You can't unless you want the crafts interior to be red. Centrifuges could solve that, but we never have truly tested any in microgravity, certainly none that can hold a human. But then you have sanitation issues as most scientist are thinking of 0.3g or so for centrifuges - yet that is purely speculation. We haven't done anything signifigant internationally since Mir and Skylab to study the effects on the human body, how to protect it, how to assemble deep space craft (moon base would work), and how to handle medical situations along with crew problems which could quickly escalate into much more severe problems amongst the crew. We are spending money to stand still. That is what I hate about the ISS.

chagarra
05-08-2003, 08:14:24
Skylab and Mir 'were' the science experiments. I reiterate, ISS is the first rung.
It will have to function as a truckstop, why else build in enough power to supply a small town. Since we don't have the ability to even get any major mass to GeoSync orbit in a single burn at this stage, let alone build a moon base.
I think you're confusing a minor refuelling depot in LEO with a major manufacturing complex more suited for GeoSync or L5, which should be the next step.

Your economic arguments seem very luddite like.
If the world cannot build them now, it never will since the US is so bankrupt now it cannot even start to get better without major projects to spur improvement.

Sheez...... Space exploration is just past crawling, and you expect it to run....

BTW,, There are only two on board at present to lessen use of consumables.

Deacon
05-08-2003, 09:31:13
The way things are these days, there's not that much infrastructure. In 20 years, 5 Shuttles have been constructed, and 2 have been lost. I don't see a major change in space until expansion becomes a priority. I'd at least like to see more probes for long-duration missions. Instead of machine-gunning Mars, why not shotgun one of the outer planets?

Darkstar
05-08-2003, 20:50:05
Mars is priority now because it's the closest it will be for, oh... 10,000 years. Saves tremendously on fuel... You'll note that the current crop of Mars shots are straight (Earth to Mars). You'll never see that again in your lifetime, unless we invent some really fantasy propulsion.

Pluto is also a priority, but Congress is fucking around with it's budget. Why is Pluto a priority? Pluto is transitioning from Summer to Winter... you know, Spring. It currently has an honest to goodness atmosphere. But that will NOT last long. And it takes YEARS to get a deep space probe to it.

Trip, my figures are NASA figures. I'd heard them mentioned enough in the NASA broadcasts to remember them.

Columbia did do some *very* important science. They micro-gravity burn experiment. Most of that data, we still got. That very important data has helped seriously improve the understanding of fire. I know, man's key tool, and we are still learning about it. Go figure. However, a better understanding of the basics of fire means it can be applied to a whole slew of technology to improve everything from cooking efficency (save on fuel) to better material and architecture (save on property damage and possibly human lives).

Space is so new, it's all new and better knowledge.

As far as protection from radiation... we know how to do that. Go capture a few asteriods, bring them down to LOE, hollow them out, mount engines, and internal modules. Bingo bango. Manned Deep Space craft... That's what a whole slew of "minor" probes are after. To determine how many asteroids would be suitable for just such a thing... also serves double duty in letting us figure out what the likely parameters would be for the next dinosaur killer and how to handle them...

As for as fighting deterioations.... a constant .8 c would be best. But that's got some serious repercusions. But testing has shown that ANYTHING helps. Of course, they haven't had much opportunity to test. They hope to do more extensive testing, and if they can, it will be on the ISS, at this time.

Also, Skylab was ok. But it wasn't the science equivalent of Mir. And WE (The US and most of the West) do not really have Mir level knowledge of living in space, and maintaining in space. We need the ISS for that. Cause the Ruskies only share while they are WITH us. So ISS is on the job training.

It's supposed to also be the test station for a lot of things... to allow us tele-surgery, tele-mining, and tele-fab. But to do those things, Congress and the White House have to stop fucking with it. And that's the main problem with the Space program... it's always being fucked over. If it wasn't for that, we'd have a honest to goodness moon colony, and bitching about when it would be 100% self sufficent...

No longer Trippin
05-08-2003, 21:50:37
That's my main rant... the ideal of nasa's goals are never realized as politics fucks everything up. We had our eyes set on a moon base forever - that seemed to completely drop off the radar (other than as a WMD platform) since the ISS project really started getting into full swing finacially.

I agree with the probes deal, we still need more data than we have to begin with. Same with the centrifuge, but starting and stopping it if it's the limited duration that many are speculating will just burn more fuel and channeling main thrust through vents wouldn't exactly work for obvious reasons, thus you'd need a fuel source for that. We just seem to be standing still or just barely moving forward compared to what we could be doing. Politics just fucked up a great idea and really limited its scope.

Could the ISS be modified to do many of those experiments in the future, yes. Do I see it happening, no. As by the time they get around to it at their current pace it'll be about twenty years from now and the ISS IF still up would be considered to old to add certain modules to, particularly a human cetrifuge. Thus we'd be building a new one. But NASA, Congress, and the White House love money gobblers - hence our love of the shuttle. Boeing and Lockheed's new rockets can put up nearly the same payload as a shuttle - though the shuttle IIRC has about a 2 ton advantage on them. As to size, I don't know about that as I don't know the specifics of max diameter and length of the payload module that sits on top of them.

Columbia did that fire experiment several years ago IIRC DS, that wasn't on the last flight, if it was, it was just a repeat of it, that is all. While it pays to doublecheck and even triplecheck findings, we still fall short in science stuff for the shuttle do when that is it's only chore. If we could have it all or mostly at least being valuable or potentially valuable science to the progression of mankind in space then I can see launching it. But spending a 500 million a pop to keep the ISS up when it's doing essentially nothing by your figures is useless. Russia would happily share the information for cash, they are cash strapped... we could by that info off of them for cheaper than we can keep the ISS up. Granted we can monitor the astronauts better medically than before, but we just have a seriously neutered station that we are paying a high premium for. It isn't just the building of modules, it's the 500 million we have to spend relatively often to keep in up there as Congress cut off the module that would keep it up. Granted it would still need to be refueled every now and then, but that can be done on crew changes. The shuttle should be used as that, a shuttle... expand the ISS to it's original size and all the BS experiments along with the valid ones can be performed there and you'd drop the amount of shuttle launches, thus increase the amount of time they have to prepare the shuttle along with maybe getting a little extra cash to pay for most of the reccomendations NASA really has no intention of following for the shuttle as they seem currently be ignoring calls that it needs to be out for longer than until this fall/winter. Though today I read an article saying shuttle flights will resume in march or april - but it referred to the commitee, not nasa specifically. NASA is an orginazation with a goal, but no focus anymore. There is nobody to compete with, ever since the space race ended, NASA's budget and focus have dropped tremendously, along with safety and reliability of probes since then. Faster, smarter, cheaper is turning out to be slower, dumber, and just as expensive as you then need to replace the probe if it is even possible do to launch windows.

Darkstar
05-08-2003, 21:59:26
Well, China is out to take over space, so we will be entering another space race, and soon.

Second, the Columbia fire experiment had a serious breakthrough, Trip. They were going for lowest amount of oxygen to fuel, and effects of various things on the burn. You'd need to check out the science follow up to get the exacts, but basically it's the equivalent jump from rubbing two sticks together to start a fire to having kerosene and a zippo to start a fire. :) Only, in reverse.

As for the centerfuge... I'm not sure what you are envisioning. Lots of ways to do this. Whether it's lay on this spinning table, start it, whee! Or a fully spinning donut station, etc.

Deacon
06-08-2003, 00:10:35
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/big_rip_030306.html

* When Earth explodes, the end is momentarily near.

At this point, there is still a short interval before atoms and even their nuclei break apart. "There's about 30 minutes left," Caldwell said, "But it's not quality time."

Not quality time. :)

Oops, wrong thread.

No longer Trippin
06-08-2003, 03:31:25
DS - I realize it is a huge breakthrough, that is why I emphasized I can see doublechecking and triplechecking such science of that level. But you even have to admit a decent amount of experiments have little to no real value to mankind or to furthering our exploration of space.

I've heard of several ideas floating around, the one that would be the easiest to implement would be the table - but for deep space travel, an actual compartment that spins would be the most desireable if the effects that make it harder to implement are overcome - as in the case of medical emergencies where surgery is required, can't do that with a spinning table and platform for the doctor to stand on - he'd suffer from nausea. The table has the disadvatage as astronauts can't actually work out. So while it will slow the deterioation, it won't stop it. And we know for a fact that current exercise methods definantly would not work for any trip outside the earth's sphere of influence, such as to mars. Astronauts after a 2 week mission can take some time to regain their full strength even though they have a daily exercise routine - those who are on the ISS take much longer to recover, hell, most have trouble walking or can't walk without help depending on how long they've been up there. That's been well established from Mir and not a gaurded secret at all.

Darkstar
06-08-2003, 05:48:07
You aren't thinking Trip... If the mount telepresence robotics above the table, the docs can be *anywhere else* and operate with worry of naseau.

The main problem with a spinning ring or partial ring, is how the hell to do the connections! Plumbing, access, etc. Plus simple wear and tear.

Now, you want to do significant maneavering in space with spinning mass, well, you need to spin down. Pain in the rump, but we are not doing combat or anything so that isn't a big deal.

Of course, we could always just BUILD ourselves a freaking large ship... via asteroids again. Plenty are large enough to have minor gravitational attraction so things would eventually settle down. Put enough together, get something better. Like 1/8 grav. ;)

And you keep saying its a huge deal. It isn't that big a deal. They've got a few promising leads, and if we really want to do it, we build a flying donut and be done with it.

No longer Trippin
06-08-2003, 06:20:20
If it's not a big deal like your saying DS, why the hell haven't we done it already? I mean afterall, collecting a few asteroids travelling at godawful speeds sounds rather easy considering that just landing on them at the moment is considered risky and they gnerally would have to loop around a planet to gain the momentum to catch up with the asteroid. Problem with tying asteroids together as you still have to stop them in the first place and then steer them to some place where the rest of the rocks that have been caught are waiting. Since even landing on them is not an easy task at the moment I don't see that as a viable option, also having to wait a helluva long time if not using nuclear propulsion, 5 years or so to catch it, another several years to stop it if using the digging technique, less if you use nuclear propulsion - but the public would balk at that - sending radioactive material to catch rocks to build a ship, and if using the digger it will take a godawful amount of time to get it to where you need it, not to mention probably tearing through half the asteroid in the first place. Nice idea, but you need to get the rocks first, that's the hangup there - not to mention convincing the public that rocks are worth sending nuclear powered craft up... you'd have more than greenpeace up nasa asshole.

Darkstar
06-08-2003, 06:34:58
Trip, catching and putting an asteriod where we want to isn't a big deal. Not since Deep Space 1. It's only a question of patience.

If you aren't in a hurry, ion drives are great. Work fine in outer system as in. So collecting the asteriods wouldn't be a big deal. There's some minor engineering into putting them together how we want, but that's NASA's best plan for making an open space voyager. Of course, they are looking to put 40 to 60 year olds on it... Older people don't suffer micro-gravity deterioation as strongly as the young bucks and does. Slower metabolism, already has deteoration. Biggest issue is getting them back and down safely. Lot of sudden stress, once you pop a chute or star using aerodynamic lift/braking...

The biggest challenge for "landing" happens to be that they don't have any to any noticable gravity for most. You don't land, you do a soft intercept and latch, just like they do with any space ships docking together. The problem is finding how to "latch" down. However, if the 'troid is small enough, you could just net/rope catch it.

For rocks big enough to have their own appreciable gravity, you just coast down. Slow, gradual braking. We aren't talking landing on something with 1/3 or 1/6 a grav force.

The main problem right now, other then getting the patience to put together a collect and build program, is where to go. Mars is the only place we like at the moment, and that's between a 4 year to 8 year mission. That's just too freaking long at this time. We need practice... at micro-g living, and low g living. That means a Luna station.

No longer Trippin
06-08-2003, 23:12:34
Haven't we only landed or attempted one landing on an asteriod, and it was a rather massive one? What are we going to do to catch the rogue asterods which would be the ones closest to us? Lasso them - they make the shuttle look like it's standing still (not that you would use a shuttle for that, you couldn't), but you need to get a lander that can slow the asteroid down and then have a propulsion system to move the asteriods to somewhere where it can be tied togethe with other asteriods. The only viable solution is nuclear propulsion, and you need to have the asteriod mapped and have a good landing foundation for it. Then you have to sell to the public the ideal of nuclear propulsion for rocks - that's gonna be a hard sell. If you use a digger to slow it down, it'll tear through it to the point that the asteroid is useless - thus using the dig and toss method is out. They can alter trajectories a bit going by computer studies, but stopping and being the propulsion mechanism wouldn't work, they'd eat the asteroid up.

Might as well build that flying Donut DS. :)

Darkstar
07-08-2003, 10:25:22
:sigh:

If an ion engine will get you there, an ion engine is good enough to push the 'troid.

Why are you stuck on "nuclear"? Hell, solar sails would do just fine, as long as we are talking inside of Jupiter's orbit. And there just happens to be a couple of solar sail missions coming up to make sure of it.

I told you. You don't land. You "dock". Watch a few of the follow up probes to Clementime.

And the Air Force will fly a few nuclear propulsion programs. They don't have to the public anything about what's going up, and they haven't, in a long, long time.

Darkstar
25-08-2003, 20:11:06
Well, time for an update...

Last weel, they delivered my new machine. But there wasn't anyone available to do the work necessary to get it up on the network.

Today, I managed to get a tech come out to put the new machine onto the network.

Turns out, it was delivered with MSBlast on it, fresh from our "manu" labs. Whee! He gets rid of blast, does the ass kissing necessary to get his co-workers to enter the data on the new MAC and IP, puts the machine on the network... and instantly is infected with another MSBlast.

IT Security sees the machine start spraying out MSBlast, and disables my network connection at the frame. Wire goes dead.

Tech was using network until wire went dead. Tech scratches head, notices I have a second drop. Decides he was just imagining being on the network earlier, swaps to my other drop onto the net.

IT Security sees my new machine using the other drop, and disables THAT drop on the frame before my machine has a chance to start spraying MSBlast on the new line.

Tech scratches head, farts around for 30 minutes swapping lines, swapping trying both drop points. Decides to call up and see if they really put in the info and saved it so the machine is allowed on the net.

45 minutes later, finds out IT security shut it's network drops down on the frame because it had MSBlast.

Cleans the machine, again. Calls IT Security and swears that if they cut the machine off again, he'll deep fry their balls and feed them to his dog. Plugs up machine, and after 5 minutes, it has network access.

After testing the machine, I find it's more fucked then the machine they took away, the first time. It has ALL the original problems in the file system and other basic kernal support services that my original machine did, after the first time they "serviced" my box. Big surprise.

Tech makes some notes, leaves.

I've discovered since then, that this box is doing even funkier things... tries to occasionally access the A drive. That's a bad sign...

So, fuck it. I hope my newest machine is giving NASA Digital AIDS. It's been almost 2.5 months since I had a working machine. I just had to turn down assisting one of my customers, because I do not have a working machine. Fuck all IT Security and it's political games, and our IT tech support and all their turf wars. I'm tired of this shit. It's seriously impacting my work, my teams work, and our customers. They've been doing everything they can to hide the problem... time to turn up the heat so none of NASA works.

Got any viruses? And worms? Just let me know where they are. :evil grin: If I can get enough of NASA fucked, perhaps NASA will decide to finally getting around to tightening the thumb screws on IT Support and IT Security. And I can get a machine that will WORK properly. Just like my original machine did before they serviced it.

Deacon
25-08-2003, 22:46:52
So, not only do the original problems remain, but now Blast is on the machine, and IT Support would rather create problems for IT Security than set up a firewall on the machine? Nifty.

Darkstar
26-08-2003, 05:40:11
That seems to be the gist of it.

No longer Trippin
26-08-2003, 15:33:57
I think it's just since darkstar has a computer on the network, the network becomes infected with the darkstar computer syndrome, or DCS for short. :)

Darkstar
26-08-2003, 21:57:16
My other computers work fine, thank you.

Work cannot replicate the environment they gave me on that machine to begin with. And they have dll conflicts in their standard loads. Hard to imagine, when their standard load is a windows 3.1 that was stepped up to 95 which was upgraded to 98 which was then stepped up to NT 3 which was then upgraded to 3.5 which was moved up to windows 2000 Pro. Seriously. Their standard load is some tech's machine. They distribute it, and you can go look at his AIM chat logs! Bleah.

Their office has been stepped up equally.

Cannot imagine how that set up could possibly have DLL conflicts. Not that they still have actual 8 bit and 16 bit applications that they use to manage the machines, access certain data, etc.

Seriously. Very fucked up.

Darkstar
02-09-2003, 22:15:13
Well, I found out today why after they put their MSBlast fix on the machine, Windows Update still lists the RPC fix needed. They are using a program that does nothing then register the MUTEX "BILLY", which is what the first few flavors of Blast look to see if its on the machine already. If it is, the Blast worm exits, without "re-infecting" the machine. That means, as soon as someone takes out that method to check to see if the machine is already infected with BLAST, bam! Why? They aren't fixing the vulnerability!

Why aren't they fixing it? Cause then they'd have to figure out what items they run in their standard load that is locking one of the dependant dlls. Whee!

Bastards. Wednesday makes... 12 weeks since I began this fun and games. 12 weeks! 3 months!

Bah. I wonder if I'm going to have a working machine by Christmas? My co-workers are begining to bet it will be later now... And they are ghosting their machines as fast as they can beg a copy of the techs. Cause they are all running the same hardware...

I've suggested ghosting one of their hd's over to my machine, but they know I'd find all their naughty stuff, cleaning up the machine. So no go so far...

Darkstar
08-09-2003, 22:39:05
Bubble, bubble, toil and trouble!

The game goes on. Same as always. My boss has finally decided he wants to me to document the past 13 weeks (come this Wednesday) as best I can. So I'm about to copy out this thread for use at work. My other "documentation" of the issue have disappeared.... unsurprisingly.

Whee!

No longer Trippin
09-09-2003, 00:52:19
Wait - they are just upgrading not installing new copies of the OS. You can get by with that once or twice, but that many damned times - shit, just the fuckups that come from each OS upgrade once you add those all together I'm surprised half the machines there work. NASA culture at work there.

Darkstar
09-09-2003, 01:00:37
Not NASA. CONTRACTOR. If it was NASA, we'd just be up to Windows 95 at work. Always 5 to 10 years behind the world on anything. (The exact time warp depends on what area of knowledge/expertise we are talking about)

No longer Trippin
09-09-2003, 02:41:31
No wonder contractors "save money" it's because they don't do shit.

Darkstar
10-09-2003, 06:35:21
Hey, that's what happens when the White House says to only do Space stuff. IT is not Space stuff. So NASA had to contract it out. AFTER reducing their staff, selling off their lines, backbone, computers and related equipment, and then finding contractors to provide lines, backbones, computers and related equipment, as well as support staff, guess what NASA's savings on IT was... they saved -15,150% (Yes, the cost to do what it had been doing by outsourcing raised the cost incredibly, and for crappier service.) That's government "improvement" for you.

No longer Trippin
10-09-2003, 19:42:45
Why don't you become a whistleblower - I'm sure you'll get protection under the current administration. :snickers:

Deacon
11-09-2003, 05:07:11
Bureaucracy transcends politics. Maybe it'll unite the world. :p

Darkstar
11-09-2003, 07:01:58
It is already united at the level most suitable for bureaucracy. One government wouldn't have enough agencies and departments and whatnot.

Darkstar
19-09-2003, 16:33:35
BTW... yesterday, I actually got to write a bit of code. Hurray!

My workstation is currently out "being tested". So far, they've informed me it had a bad power supply, bad memory, bad cache, bad motherboard, bad hd, bad cables, and bad attitude. That's all a joke... I think. (They are awaiting new memory to test if the memory is good, and have been since Wednesday. JIT at its best, don't you know.)

Anyways, I spent 2 days putting in the basics of the OS so that I could get the old Microsoft Visual C++ installed on the loaner... and was finally able to get it to be installable. Yesterday, I actually managed to code a bit! Hurray! Of course, it was in hunting down an oddity/bug in a small system, and the real coding has to wait until I have a machine I can trouble shoot Services on without the machine's OS/Config blowing out the Services and the ServiceHost, but hey! A step in the right direction! After only 14 weeks! (I think it's 14 weeks... have to go check a calender to make sure, and I don't care enough to at this time. ;) )

No longer Trippin
19-09-2003, 20:33:38
Well a bad PSU will eventually destroy everything if it doesn't outright blowup something - generally the CPU with the mobo. Sounds like it was spiking up to 14 and dropping down again. Anything higher than that and usually boards, drives, etc. just blow the hell up. Crappy PSU generally will lead to the system dying one way or another - can't believe it took them that damned long to find out it was a POS PSU. You can check that easily. Whoever "fixed" it the first time was probably thinking more about his paycheck to get his next fix od herion than your computer.

Darkstar
22-09-2003, 19:52:52
They haven't told me what it actually was. So far, it's been everything from operator error to gremlins to Satan to gypsy curse to Mercury is Retrograde. Everything BUT hardware or their software. Which of course, it is most likely one or both of those...

I'll keep posting stuff here as we don't find out what it is/was. This is work related... it's my offsite documentation. ;)

No longer Trippin
23-09-2003, 00:55:30
LOL, no privacy clauses?

How far off topic did this conversation get to get back on topic? Everytime I load the page it amazes me that it's actually on topic again. :)

Darkstar
24-09-2003, 04:38:00
Well, it did sidetrack about the shuttle and next generation space orbital killers. But other then that... ;)

Darkstar
25-09-2003, 19:34:50
Update...

I like how the fact that they are going to deliver my "fixed" machine tomorrow effectively stops me from working. Why put in the week to get a loaner installed and set up with all the tools I use when I will just have to start again "tomorrow"?

Well, still waiting. Tomorrow, I'm supposed to get my fixed machine. Any bets on if I do or don't? :)

No longer Trippin
25-09-2003, 21:52:31
I bet you get the machine, I'm not gonna say if it is fixed or not. :)

Darkstar
30-09-2003, 19:29:00
Got the machine. Came in last few minutes of Friday... I was busy Monday, so I didn't get a chance to look at the new machine until today.

Well, it STILL has the same problem I sent it out for! In addition, it stutters (freezes up) just like the ancient Windows 3.1 machines!

I believ the stuttering is from SMS and our shitty network. What exactly SMS is trying to do, I don't know, but I have plenty of guesses, and none of them are nice.

In addition, a SpyBot check showed that the machine had cookies for SexTracker.HitBox.Com *under* the SMS account. Fun fun, eh? Could be entirely innocent, but since NO ONE should ever log into an SMS local account to surf the net, how would such a cookie get under that account?

Anyways, I discovered even more joy when I hooked up the loaner. Plugged in the power, system stays off. Plugged in the Ethernet cable, and the system powered up. Fun fun. Apparently, our IT people, in there infinite unwisdom, default all systems to "Waiting", instead of off. That means a hacker can "wake up" your system from afar, because IT wants to be able to "wake up" you system. Bleah.

Shit heads, shit heads,
all we've got are shit heads...
Big ones and small ones...
brown and green,
and some with corn can still be seen!

No longer Trippin
30-09-2003, 20:44:49
Well long as they have a good firewall at the hub (servers setup) they can have everything else fairly loose - though how you speak of them I could probably telnet into your network. :rolleyes:

Darkstar
30-09-2003, 21:27:31
I don't know why not. I used to.

No longer Trippin
01-10-2003, 02:45:21
Yeah, but I'd have access (well if I hacked the Login/PW) unless it's totall open which would be scary.

Darkstar
01-10-2003, 17:47:55
Why would that be scary? NASA has a mandate to be "totally open when not working on Top Secret Military stuff", to badly paraphrase one of the many mission statements of the agency...

No longer Trippin
01-10-2003, 18:47:59
Hmm, stroll up into payroll for a start... :)

Darkstar
01-10-2003, 19:31:39
Funny enough... payroll is entirely open. However, you have to hack a User ID and Password. They don't allow "password" as a password, so you'll be slowed down hunting any particular account's Pwd. ;)

NASA gets away with having their payroll system as an Access 0 system (a system whose only security is ID and password) because it is PRIMARILY a paper system. The Digital is just a shadow for drawing metrics out of and displaying in Power Point and Crystal Reports. You want to cut a pay raise or a new account, you need to get ahold of the FORMS, fill them out in the required fields, and send them to the right people in quadruple with the correct signatures from the secretaries (no manager ever signs anything here, they all make their secretaries sign FOR them, so all sigs are forgeries or provably "not theirs", letting thme off the hook of anything bad).