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Scabrous Birdseed
13-05-2003, 21:27:44
Originally posted by King_Ghidra
:p

in all seriousness, what is the point?

to let CG friends hear cool music
or to prove how cool/knowledgeable about music we all are?

i'm all for recomendations, but why not just post them rather than compile cds and write reviews?

when i hear something i like i write a thread about in the music forum and see what happens

this LWP thing made sense when it was jst funko and snappy sorting out some musical differences but now...
it's like smash hits 2003

http://www.counterglow.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9971

Have you got the point now?

King_Ghidra
14-05-2003, 09:17:47
well actually i was putting something together to explain how i feel after taking part in lwp4, so i'll hold off the full response until i finish getting my thoughts togther.

But i'll be honest, overall i wasn't impressed with most of it, still thought there were far too many obvious and unimaginative type tracks (i still think that listen without prejudice is an ironic title given the fact that so many people know what to expect and know they won't like it) and few tracks that i want to hear again.

I did enjoy it, but i think i manly enjoyed the idea of contributing tracks and seeing what people thought of them rather than hearing anyone else's, even if that makes me sound shallow.

Funkodrom
14-05-2003, 11:00:44
I think the problem with not listening without prejudice and the predictable tracks issue go together. If the tracks are easily recogniseable then it's impossible to lwp.

King_Ghidra
14-05-2003, 12:29:14
well that's what i'm saying, but as certain people always submit predictable tracks then doesn't it invalidate the purpose of the exercise?

Provost Harrison actually said 'And I know plenty of you will hate this, which is all the better for winding you up with'. Well fuck that attitude.

Funkodrom
14-05-2003, 12:54:33
Be interesting to see who were the most predictable submitters.

Scabrous Birdseed
14-05-2003, 13:00:49
I think people should submit good tracks they don't think other people have heard and fuck the prejudice bit. It's a glorified recommendation engine, if you can jilt people's perceptions that's good but not essential.

The Shaker
14-05-2003, 13:06:35
I'd settle for Good over Obscure as well.
I get the feeling that what seems to matter more is that noone has ever heard of a band before quite a lot.
'this is the shites, they made one song in '72..oh and er i think it's er good er yeah'

Funkodrom
14-05-2003, 13:07:11
Scabby: That was what I did.

Shakey: If everyone's heard it before what's the point of putting it on?

The Shaker
14-05-2003, 13:09:58
If it aint good enough for someone to have purchased it for themselves, it aint good enough to put on.
Something isn't good just becasue it hasn't been heard. You have not understood the point.

Funkodrom
14-05-2003, 13:13:58
If they've never heard it then how do they know if it's good enough to purchase for themselves?

I've got lots of music that I think's good that most of the participants would have heard and made their mind up about before. Why put any of that on when I could put on more stuff that I think is really good but most people haven't heard? I didn't get the feeling that people were going for obscurity in preference to quality, just that people were choosing the best stuff from the more obscure bits of their record collections.

Guy
14-05-2003, 14:55:41
I think it's possible to listen without prejudice to something you recognize, though it requires some effort on the part of the reviewer.

Honestly, I would rather have this project take that route (submitting things that people believe are great in an effort to get others to take a fresh look at it) than dredging through my collection for things no one will recognize. Fair play to those that can do both, but I think some folks aren't really approaching this in that way (either in that they slate/praise things simply because they recognize them or are submitting things just to out-wierd everyone).

I like the aspect of getting exposure to new stuff I haven't heard before, but I would rather this project stay closer to the original premise of challenging the reviewers with some maybe obscure/forgotten tracks from recognizable bands. Like Laz said in one of the setup threads, put on what you love and leave it to the reviewer to get past what they 'know' about it and look at it with an open mind. (no offense intended to those who are doing just that).

Funkodrom
14-05-2003, 15:00:35
So the two problems are people trying to outweird each other and people putting on several identical tracks... maybe people should just think about that when they are submitting stuff.

Two of my favourite LWP tracks were the Eels one from LWP3 and Daisy Chainsaw from LWP4. Both great tracks I've heard before, loved and didn't own.

Guy
14-05-2003, 15:04:37
Exactly.

The Shaker
14-05-2003, 15:06:47
:bash: they being the submitter.

Just a general thing.
Personally I felt this one was a let down.
THere were very few tracks I gelled with and
it is very unlikely that the CD will be played now that the writng has finished.

Points where it is falling down
a) 36 second tracks. These wern't obscure, or good they were shit. IS the idea to promote good(in the submitters opinion) music or just to personally get as many of your own tracks on as possible?
b) Whilst I accept this is my personal opinion tracks from QOTSA/Soundgarden/Tool which were obscure and (again in my opinion) shit. How can I be unprejudiced when I know they have all got far far far better tracks out there? I would rather listen to the good stuff.
c) There is the creeping factor of 'you can't guess it is me' in there. Whilst the guessing is one of the more fun bits I'd rather that didn't get out of hand to the detriment of the quality of music.
d) The format is getting a bit tired. It needs some spice(girls) to it. What this is I don't know.
e) PH needs to be forced to listen to better music before submitting again :)

f) Actually what I really want Is a good compilation of music I like. I should do that myself and stop whinging.

BigGameHunter
14-05-2003, 15:11:10
I enjoyed most of it and it is also a bit organic as well, with some songs falling into disfavor with more listens and some gaining ground.
But putting music from one genre (sorry guys, punk/ska) seems lazy to me. And most of us have heard Minor Threat, etc...and it is old news. Not ground breaking or a "forgotten gem".
I have a double album full of bands like TSOL and Napalm Beach and Social Distortion, etc...and I may contribute one or two of them that had something "different" going on, but we're dealing with a very deep and insightful group who has a broad listening range--you have to bring your A game to impress them or make them think about expanding their horizons.
Most of the bands I love are ones that I'd have never heard of without some outside intervention. That's the great potential for LWP.

The Shaker
14-05-2003, 15:12:12
Although I liked the QOTSA one of course.
:bash:
but they have still done even better :)

The Shaker
14-05-2003, 15:12:55
Oh great 15 people post before I finish writing :)

King_Ghidra
14-05-2003, 15:13:23
my feelings are very similar to yours, shakey

you've saved me a lot of time making the same points :)

Funkodrom
14-05-2003, 15:16:09
a) 36 second tracks. These wern't obscure, or good they were shit. IS the idea to promote good(in the submitters opinion) music or just to personally get as many of your own tracks on as possible?

Agree 100%


b) Whilst I accept this is my personal opinion tracks from QOTSA/Soundgarden/Tool which were obscure and (again in my opinion) shit. How can I be unprejudiced when I know they have all got far far far better tracks out there? I would rather listen to the good stuff.

Also agree, although the submitters might really like those tracks.


c) There is the creeping factor of 'you can't guess it is me' in there. Whilst the guessing is one of the more fun bits I'd rather that didn't get out of hand to the detriment of the quality of music.

True, there was some of that in my submitting but it was also to do with trying to get a bigger variety of music on the CD, I thought there'd be loads of rock on there anyway.


d) The format is getting a bit tired. It needs some spice(girls) to it. What this is I don't know.

Yeah, I like Debaser's idea in the other thread.


e) PH needs to be forced to listen to better music before submitting again

He played us some good music in his car on the way back from London. He needs to be more open minded about things that aren't punk though.

f) Actually what I really want Is a good compilation of music I like. I should do that myself and stop whinging.

Let me know which CDs of mine you need to borrow. :cute:

BigGameHunter
14-05-2003, 15:16:36
Case in point would be Tom Waits. I was surprised most of you only had a peripheral knowledge of his music. Over here, he is a staple in the "subculture" I imagine we all sort of belong to (I imagine my life following a very similar line as Laz's, etc.). Now, most people expressed a passing interest in that song, which isn't even one of his best ones. If you extrapolate from there and seek out more of his work, you may find it has been a very rewarding suggestion. He's done film and a lot of other projects. I'm not a raving fan, but he is definitely original and innovative and intelligent.
For me, he's old hat, but bands like Young Marble Giants and a couple of others have been overlooked in my listening and I'll most likely be buying albums based solely on the thoughtful contributions that were made in what I believe to be the "spirit" of this endeavor.

Funkodrom
14-05-2003, 15:45:23
Yeah, that's a good example of what I was just rolleyesed by K_G for trying to say.

King_Ghidra
14-05-2003, 15:50:45
wow that really hurt huh? :lol:

Funkodrom
14-05-2003, 15:54:33
It's the rolleyes! Of course it hurts, it's the ultimate punishment.

Lazarus and the Gimp
14-05-2003, 16:44:50
I've only got two aims in these things.

1- Introduce people to stuff I think they'd like.

2- Find stuff I want to get.


I'm now giving serious consideration to buying a Monster Magnet album.

Mr. Bas
14-05-2003, 17:08:21
a) 36 second tracks. These wern't obscure, or good they were shit. IS the idea to promote good(in the submitters opinion) music or just to personally get as many of your own tracks on as possible?

Agree, but I must add that it was just a way of filling the last 30 seconds of your 12 minutes something. And ofcourse, before submitting, I had no idea several other people would also submit 30 second tracks. If I knew, I probably wouldn't have submitted it.

b) Whilst I accept this is my personal opinion tracks from QOTSA/Soundgarden/Tool which were obscure and (again in my opinion) shit. How can I be unprejudiced when I know they have all got far far far better tracks out there? I would rather listen to the good stuff.

Since two of the examples used here were mine, I'll explain a bit. The two tracks were both chosen for different reasons. I really love the Soundgarden track, and I think much of their early stuff is underrated. You don't seem to agree, no problem, but it wasn't chosen just because of its (semi-)obscurity. The Tool story is a bit different, I would have preferred something better from Aenima or Lateralus, but that was just impossible because of the time constraints. So I sacrificed some quality, and submitted a good song instead of an excellent song. Again, the point was not to choose something wilfully obscure, but something that was just of usable length.

c) There is the creeping factor of 'you can't guess it is me' in there. Whilst the guessing is one of the more fun bits I'd rather that didn't get out of hand to the detriment of the quality of music.

Agree, although I don't think it has been that much of a problem. Yet.

d) The format is getting a bit tired. It needs some spice(girls) to it. What this is I don't know.

Probably.

e) PH needs to be forced to listen to better music before submitting again

Actually, I think he has a decent taste, although like Mike said he should be a bit more open-minded about things non-punk.

I wanted to write out a similar reply to BGH as well, but I can't really be arsed to now. So let me just say that I agree with Laz here.

BigGameHunter
14-05-2003, 20:18:39
Originally posted by Mr. Bas
I wanted to write out a similar reply to BGH as well, but I can't really be arsed to now. [/B]
That hurts almost as much as the rolleyes! Sniff...

Scabrous Birdseed
14-05-2003, 20:24:29
I feel I have to defend the 30-second track I submitted.

It was not filler tacked on at the end. It was the second track I picked and I deselected several other, longer tracks that would have filled up the space, because I wanted the track (or, originally, a slightly different one) in there at all costs.

Nor was it a question of trying to cram in as many tracks as possible. Except for that one track, all of the ones I submitted were 2.45+. I don't see the difference between submitting two 2-minute tracks and submitting one three-and-a-half minute track a 30-second track. There seems to be a lot of (dare I say) prejudice against short tracks- Why can't you express a lot in a short time-frame? Why isn't that potentially interesting?

I can tell you the #1 reason I was so certain I wanted a short track in there was you, Shakey, and your blasted one-minute track of some muppet at a guitar magazine randomly hitting keyboard keys. I wanted to showcase that it was possible to derive content from and inject a multitude of perspectives into a 30-second track, and that it was possible to create a consise track that nevertheless was satisfying, or that was partially satisfying because of the brevity. The fact that three people submitted 80s rock tracks under a minute in length is unfortunate, but nothing to do with me. It was certainly not a totally predictable move, only from hindsight.

I thought this incarnation was much better than the last one, more varied, more interesting and verging me towards buying more albums. It was nowhere near as predictable as LWP3, and I actually liked a lot of PHs stuff, at least compared to, say, Shakey's or Mr. Bas's.

Scabrous Birdseed
14-05-2003, 20:27:28
Biggest problem with LWP, IMO: It (perversely?) puts a damper on forum conversation. I know several of us have stopped talking about new band discoveries because we want to introduce them through LWP5. :)

*End Is Forever*
14-05-2003, 20:45:32
a) 36 second tracks. These wern't obscure, or good they were shit. IS the idea to promote good(in the submitters opinion) music or just to personally get as many of your own tracks on as possible?

I think the comments about 30-second tracks have been rather harsh. Like Johan, I selected a 30-second track because I liked it, not because it was 30 seconds long (indeed, I left over a minute of my time unused).

Whilst I accept this is my personal opinion tracks from QOTSA/Soundgarden/Tool which were obscure and (again in my opinion) shit. How can I be unprejudiced when I know they have all got far far far better tracks out there? I would rather listen to the good stuff.

I don't think there's any point picking an obscure track that patently isn't up to scratch. By all means, pick a track that is different to try to change someone's opinion but don't pick something that's the same but not as good.

c) There is the creeping factor of 'you can't guess it is me' in there. Whilst the guessing is one of the more fun bits I'd rather that didn't get out of hand to the detriment of the quality of music.

You can't have it both ways. The same derision has been handed out for "predictability"...

Scabrous Birdseed
14-05-2003, 20:54:02
I think picking obscure tracks from well-known artists is part of that whole alternative "culture" (no offence, Mr. Bas)- their record shops seemingly carry more obscurities/bootlegs/strange live albums than normal albums and compilations. I've never really understood the fascination with badly-recorded B-material myself, but I think those who chose to expand their tastes that way rather than through broadening them are certainly welcome to do so, even if it must be much harder work with a much crapper hit-to-miss ratio.

Bob
14-05-2003, 21:09:31
Originally posted by Scabrous Birdseed
Biggest problem with LWP, IMO: It (perversely?) puts a damper on forum conversation. I know several of us have stopped talking about new band discoveries because we want to introduce them through LWP5. :) That's interesting. I had the impression there's spent a lot of energy for organisation etc. I think you are right, the focus is on that project, not on the forum. Personally I think the thingy has become too big, a brontosaurus.

Mr. Bas
14-05-2003, 21:18:41
No offence taken, but like I said, neither track was picked for its obscurity. Although you're right in that a lot of alternative rock fans seem obsessed with b-sides, outtakes and other rarities, I'm somewhat of a completist in that sense as well.

King_Ghidra@home
14-05-2003, 21:27:58
Originally posted by Bob
That's interesting. I had the impression there's spent a lot of energy for organisation etc. I think you are right, the focus is on that project, not on the forum. Personally I think the thingy has become too big, a brontosaurus.

i totally agree, to go back to what i said which johan quoted at the top of this thread, this was my original concern over the whole project.

When i want to discuss music, new or old, i start threads in the music forum. Lately i have heard lots of music because of posts here that have had nothing to do with LWP (The Rough trade album and subseqently the Breeders, Audio Bullys, Lou Reed's Berlin album to name but four).

It's cool if the balance is right, but i feel to some extent that if you're not involved in LWP you miss out half the fun of the forum and it shouldn't be like that.

Bob
15-05-2003, 08:58:59
I think it would be interesting having a lot short reviews from different persons for a single song or a Listen with Prejudice concept.

Funkodrom
15-05-2003, 09:58:39
That sounds a bit like what I was trying to do with free mp3 of the week but people rarely submitted or downloaded them or if they did they didn't comment.

Bob
15-05-2003, 11:55:02
Try an unfree mp3

Funkodrom
15-05-2003, 12:00:31
Can't, copyright problems. :(

Bob
15-05-2003, 12:10:16
It would be interesting trying to find out what's good about a song everybody knows ad nauseam, like "yesterday" for example.
I think it would be great to try to find out something postive even if you hate the song (or vice versa). Not like "it's short". I figured out that you really listen and think about it, you'll find out a special moment or something.

Bob
15-05-2003, 12:13:56
For example:

A great moment in Yesterday is the way the churus is linked to the verse. There's no break in the vocal part between it. "... for yester-day-ay-ay-ayesterday". I think it's cool how the last syllabe is streched and leads back to the same word, in different part of the song.

Eklektikos
15-05-2003, 13:00:16
Originally posted by Funkodrom
Can't, copyright problems. :(
How about links to unfree mp3s that have been put up by the artist or the record label themselves? Not so frequently found, but wouldn't that get around the copyright issue?

Funkodrom
15-05-2003, 13:02:11
Yes, that's totally fine! If people were submitting those I'd use them.